Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[member_20317]

Re. Venu ji,

"Constrained by carbon-14 and OSL dates of the sediment, the patterns indicate that the Yamuna signal was lost around fifty thousand years ago implying a change of course of the Yamuna eastwards towards the Ganga at that time"



- There is an IIT Kanpur (if I am not mistaken) study estimating that Ganga has been flowing in the same course for last about 26000 years. So going back to 50000 years and saying Yamuna joined Ganga at that time carries some risks.




Added later:

RajeshA ji, thanks for correction. Seems like I need to read NSR myself.

Atri ji, my bad. Your explaination of memory of ancient Indics theorising upon Deccan traps is not beyond belief. Unfortunately we do not have the understanding of their fuller ability to theorise in this regard. Guess we will have to learn to live with huge black holes in our history.

[RajeshA]

ravi_g ji,

It is well established among some Indigenist Indic scholars that Yamuna and Satluj used to feed Saraswati earlier.

[ManishH]

(1) If you would have noticed the beginning of my first email on this subject (Ribhus) where my assumption was clearly underlined (assuming this is true)

You can make any silly assumption but the fact is that there is no basis for that assumption. Please quote the source in vedic literature for associating ṛbhu-s with monsoon and/or summer solstice. Otherwise all your grand deductions are built on this false assumption.

(2) I never said Canis Major is on eclipitic. I also mentioned Canis Minor (Procyon) which you forgot to analyze.

All Indian nakśatra-s are ecliptic based (lunar mansions - as moon stays 5degs within ecliptic), not based on earth's equatorial plane. Indian astronomy was well aware of the effect of precession of earth's axis on the latter. The ecliptic is a much much more stable frame of reference and also affords greater accuracy of observation - all you have to do is note the asterism where the moon lies on a given day.

(3) What is your point in copying me interpreation of Tilak (from Orion) in order to somehow Prove (!) your interpreation of Ribhus?

You are the one asserting Ṛbhu-s with monsoon and summer solstice. Please show the source for that assumption.

(4) Go check various meanigns of Ribhus in Rigveda (and also in the context they appear) in multiple places. I do not bother responding to loaded questions.

"Go check various meanings" is just hand-waving. It's your assumption, you need to give the source for the association with monsoon that you so confidently build your theory on. Not me

(3) Summer solstice was near these Stars during ~26000 BC

Do you realize that the above statement has no meaning in observational astronomy. "Summer solstice" is an event, not a position in the sky. An observational astronomer has to say given an event, what was the star position. In vedic astronomy, this is conveniently done by just mentioning the lunar mansion on that day. Eg. the way horoscopes mention the star under which a person is born. In a spherical co-ordinate system, this concise notation means the latitude is fixed to zero, and only longitude is sufficient.

One example of a very exact observation of solstice is in kauṣīṭaki brāhmaṇa 19.2 which says the winter solstice occurs in the new moon of māgha.

(4) I may also mention that the declination (latitude) attained by Sirius (-10 degree) is the closest that Sirius had been to ecliptic during last ~30000 years.

Deft; you mention the declination w.r.t to equatorial plane but you mix it up with the ecliptic in the same sentence. So a speed reader will see a mention of Sirius with ecliptic latitude 10 degs go unchallenged. Define "closest" above. The only data we have points to ~36 degs from ecliptic (39.6 today minus 3or 4 degree variation of ecliptic plane). The proper motion of Sirius is so variable on both lat. and long. that if you want to confidently say at 26000BC it was closer to ecliptic, you'll need to back it with a peer-reviewed astronomical study.

Why would an astronomical observation call Sirius śvān when it is consistently called lubdhaka in Indian literature. What is the precent for call Sirius śvān in vedic literature ? Also why wouldn't they just mention the nearest to the longitude lunar mansion which is bang on the ecliptic.

RajeshAji : gṛhastha duties have left me with no time to participate in the discussion.

[ManishH]

I was surprised to find only one reference to horse meat as food in the Rig Veda and as you pointed out, no references to mare's milk.

There is no requirement for RV society to eat horse meat or drink mare milk.

It is a myth to think that all Bronze age Eurasian cultures that domesticated the horse also drank mare milk (koumiss). Yes, evidence for mare milk is found in Botai, but not so in Sintashta where cow milk dominates. Excerpt from Koryakova & Epimakhov, "The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages":

The cattle of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures were mainly hornless. Horse breeding was aimed at the development and use of the horse's working qualities: speed and energy. It was used only partly as meat. The preliminary isotopic analysis demonstrates that horse meat or milk was not of great importance in the diets of these people (from the Bolshekaraganski cemetery), although cattle and sheep meat and milk were significant dietary staples (Privat 2002).

Why is Sintashta-Petrovka culture important for RV ? Sintashta is where the earliest archaeological evidence for horse-driven chariotry, fortifications and industrial scale manufacture of metal projectile appears.

[Nilesh Oak]

ManishH Ji,

Without referring to specific points in your post, I would like to admit that I am guilty as charged. However, you have provided me enough ideas to write scholarly research articles on every point you have raised, in a peer reviewed journals. I plan on doing that as soon as I join academia. I have no wish nor ability to write long articles here on this forum (because that is what it would take) responding to your comments.

[Nilesh Oak]

However harping on this error factor would give detractors a handy lever to use to debunk all the astronomical dates that Indigenists may have arrived at pertaining to Rig Veda, Mahabharat, Ramayana, etc. In fact the "error factor" argument would be used much in the same way as AIT-Nazis and AIT-Sepoys today use "horse bones and spoked wheels" argument!

Brihaspati ji was warning us (those who may not be aware or realize) the risk/error in exploring ancient timeline using astronomy software).

What he said is true except 'It is a trivially true statement' about Astronomy software, our assumptions about Earth's spin, axis, and about practically every science/knowledge base, not just astronomy. That is why I said it is a trivially true statment.

While Brihaspati ji may not or may not have intended it, this trivially true argument is used by many (and as ravi_g ji, warns us that we (pro OIT, Pro-India) are not exempt from temptation of this false logic)

Indian Marxists (e.g. Romila Thapar's std. statement when it comes to dating of Ramayana/Mahabharata etc. is that ..."we first have to filter through and create the manuscript of original Ramayana/MBH (of course has to be done by linguists and at Harvard) before we can tackle (again I presume using linguistic jargon) the issue of timing of Ramayana/MBH".

Isn't it interesting that all attempts to date Ramayana/MBH are fron Non academia (very few exceptions.. and I won't talk of the quality here.. it would be difficult for me to stop), while academia (Indology) crowd busy proving that Linguistics is science (yes, I am aware of Rosetta Stone, brilliant, isn't it? What have you produced since then.. oh, please don't wave me those peer-reviewed journal articles from mutual admiring club. See, I digressed again)

Another trick people who confuse the process of science (AIT gang is at forefront, but Pro-India crowd is not clean either) use is on the lines of.

Can you make a pig sing?
When you do make a pig sing...
But it is not singing to the tune of Bach!
when you show that the pig can sing to the tuen of Bach
But it is only one pig. Can you make other pigs sing? and it goes on and on.....They never realize their questions are relevant, but they missed the miracle of pig singing!

I will illustrate this in my future post by quoting reference from Shatapath Brahmana

[shiv]

I was surprised to find only one reference to horse meat as food in the Rig Veda and as you pointed out, no references to mare's milk.

There is no requirement for RV society to eat horse meat or drink mare milk.

It is a myth to think that all Bronze age Eurasian cultures that domesticated the horse also drank mare milk (koumiss). Yes, evidence for mare milk is found in Botai, but not so in Sintashta where cow milk dominates. Excerpt from Koryakova & Epimakhov, "The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages":

The cattle of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures were mainly hornless. Horse breeding was aimed at the development and use of the horse's working qualities: speed and energy. It was used only partly as meat. The preliminary isotopic analysis demonstrates that horse meat or milk was not of great importance in the diets of these people (from the Bolshekaraganski cemetery), although cattle and sheep meat and milk were significant dietary staples (Privat 2002).

Why is Sintashta-Petrovka culture important for RV ? Sintashta is where the earliest archaeological evidence for horse-driven chariotry, fortifications and industrial scale manufacture of metal projectile appears.

ManishH ji we have been through all this before. It is complete rubbish to find archaeological remains 2000 km away from the Rig Veda and conclude that the remains of domesticated horses in graves there and the importance of the horse in those archaeological remains suggests a connection with the Rig Veda when that conclusion happens to be convenient. And then when the horse meat conclusion is inconvenient because of lack of evidence of eating horse meat you bring up exactly the opposite point. Anything can be explained, but it's definitely not science. Its could be philology, but I am not a philologist. But I know that it is laughable incredible nonsense. Your own ref David Anthony says how important horse meat was for the Rig Vedic people and you just pull out one more speculative reference and try to say exactly the opposite because it is inconvenient. What you are doing is speculation. Anyone can do that, as I can. And that is as far as this Sinthashta connections goes. Speculation. It is nowhere near science and nowhere near "proof". This is just a hypothesis and a poor one at that. It is an insult to science to call this science.

By the way, how come Sanskrit has only a 4% substrate of a non IE language while Greek has 40% and German 25%? Were there no people in Punjab in 1200 BC when those horse riding vegetarians came in from Sintashta? Languages that develop de novo should have a very low substrate no?

[Nilesh Oak]

Shatapatha Brahmana (Krittika rising due east)

Here goes AIT big wigs.. something like this. There are peer reviewed (and peer un-reviewed - EJVS for example) articles to substantiate this. This is how they have handled the above Shatapath Brahaman ref.

(1) We (who is we? a committee?) donot think above reference refers to Krittka rising due east
(2) Ok, even if he reference does refer to "Krittka ...." how do we test it? What ? Astronomy software? never heard it. Oh ok. what does it say?
(3) 3000 BC? But that was only 1000 years after Earth was formed (note it was not at all unusual until eartly 20th century) for many (masses but also academics) to think (at least in western world) that earth was only ~6000 (4000 BC) year old. (Those who criticise Vartak, even rightfully so, should also include Newton, Kepler, Galileo into their criticism...alchemy, astrology,age of earth, theory of tides respectively).
(4) Ok, got it earth is much older. But there was no civilization in India in 3000 BC? only tribes jumping from one tree to another (no, that was in Europe, you confused the location).

(5) But how can we say that when SB says "Krittika rose east", it means exactly the East Direction'? (Well, that is because that is exactly what SB says. Prachyua disha NA chavante)

(6) Got it. But does not have to be exact East. I mean a dull observer in ancient India would consider anything rising in east direction as 'exact east'. (Well, but then that same dull observer is not saying this same thing about other nakshatras who are also rising in the east)

(7) got it. so let's calculate. But we have to have ERROR marigin.. how about Exact east +/- 10 degree, that sounds reasonable?

(8) I know you don't agree (because that is the belt of ecliptic) but I am in power and in academic chair.. so let's go with my estimate (in my next paper, I will refer to this error as scientifically established fact, by cross referencing my first paper)

(9) I asked me friend in astronomy dept and he tells me that Krittka rising East (+/- 10 degree can happen 3000 BC +/-1000 years. Let's only consider 1000 years after. i.e. 2000 BC (since 4000 BC timeline approaches beginning of Earth and no Indian existed then in India)

(10) But here is the problem..Aryan were not in India until 1500 BC (and savages don't have anythign to do with Krittka). So either we have to move AIT to 2000 BC or move the date of Krittika.. let's go with the latter

(11) Ok. so Krittka were rising east around 1500 BC! But wait a minute. the reference is in shatapatha BRAHAMANA, and our Indology ancestors ESTABLISHED that Vedas are not written before 1500 BC., then Brahmanas. ok.. let's try 800 BC or even 500 BC (otherwise we have additional problem of the timing of Upanishads)

(12) hello, my friend in physics department.. how much more error I need, before I can claim Kriitka rising east during say 800 BC or 500 BC? what did you say? Oh thanks. Appreicate your help. It always helps to verify once DEMANDS with scientists (physics is science, isn't it, so is linguistic.. would you agree.... did he he hung up on me.... may be he is busy).

(13) Ok. Krittika rising due east can be understood to mean it happening in 800-500 BC and fits very well with already ESTABLSIHED TIMING for Vedas/samhitas, Brahmansa, upanishads,.. Oh, where do we place Ramayana. Ah am already exhausted of this deep research. Let's tackle that issue next year.

[shiv]

Some data points about horse meat and Sintashta

Here is what David Anthony says:

Sintashta and Potapovka-Filatovka grave pits, which had wooden plank
roofs supported by timber posts and plank shoring walls. The horse sacri-
fice at a royal funeral is described in RV 1.162: "Keep the limbs undam-
aged and place them in the proper pattern. Cut them apart, calling out
piece by piece." The horse sacrifices in Sintashta, Potapovka, and Ftlatovka
graves match this description, with the lower legs of horses carefully cut
apart at the joints and placed in and over the grave. The preference for
horses as sacrificial animals in Sintashta funeral rituals, a species choice
setting Sintashta apart from earlier steppe cultures, was again paralleled
in the RV. Another verse in the same hymn read: "Those who see that the
racehorse is cooked, who say, 'It smells good! Take it away!' and who wait
for the doling out of the flesh of the charger-let their approval encourage
us." These lines describe the public feasting that surrounded the funeral of
an important person, exactly like the feasting implied by head-and-hoof
deposits of horses, cattle, goats, and sheep in Sintashta graves that would
have yielded hundreds or even thousands of kilos of meat.

One more misleading concoction by David Anthony is:

The horse sacrifice at a royal funeral is described in RV 1.162: "Keep the limbs undam-aged and place them in the proper pattern. Cut them apart, calling out piece by piece." The horse sacrifices in Sintashta, Potapovka, and Ftlatovka graves match this description, with the lower legs of horses carefully cut apart at the joints and placed in and over the grave.

Rig Veda 1.162 has no mention of any royal funeral it is pure horse sacrifice related to the Ashwamedha Yaga. And there is no mention of a grave,. In every case the parts of the horse are offered to Agni (fire) Verse 20 makes this clear . This verse pleads that the man who carves the horse does it carefully so that the Horse does not lose its parts by careless dissection.

Of all the food items mentioned in the Rig Veda, horse meat in the diet appears in only poem 162 as part of a sacrifice. This is is stark contrast to the Sithashta culture where horse meat formed 20-30 % of the diet. No wonder they found so many bones


David Anthony "Horse Wheel and Language"

With up to eight horses sacrificed for a single funeral,
Sintashta feasts would have fed hundreds, even thousands of guests . Feast-
hosting behavior is the most common and consistently used avenue to
prestige and power in tribal societies.

Google Books

Horse meat constituted 20-30% of Andonovo Meat consumption

[RajeshA]

RajeshAji : gṛhastha duties have left me with no time to participate in the discussion.

Well good to have you back!

There is no requirement for RV society to eat horse meat or drink mare milk.

Just as there is no requirement for RV society to refer to the horse, because of some old memory allegedly from their alleged Central Asian origins. There are plenty of reasons for RV society to hold the horse in high prestige, domestication by oneself being the least of those motives.

The domestication of horse would entail memories of wild horses, steppes, cohabitation, breaking of horses, full integration of the horse in the livelihood including drinking mare's milk. Drinking milk is a sign of intimacy which goes with cohabitation and domestication.

Only societies which would have got the horse in trade, would restrict the use of the horse for limited purposes only, for whichever purpose they bought the horses. In RV horse references have a limited scope!

RV references to Horse entails no memory of domestication. That is a very very far stretch!

The cattle of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures were mainly hornless. Horse breeding was aimed at the development and use of the horse's working qualities: speed and energy. It was used only partly as meat. The preliminary isotopic analysis demonstrates that horse meat or milk was not of great importance in the diets of these people (from the Bolshekaraganski cemetery), although cattle and sheep meat and milk were significant dietary staples (Privat 2002).

Why is Sintashta-Petrovka culture important for RV ? Sintashta is where the earliest archaeological evidence for horse-driven chariotry, fortifications and industrial scale manufacture of metal projectile appears.

Obviously Sintashta people (c. 2800–1600 BC) were themselves not the domesticators of horses. The Botai culture (c. 3700-3100 BC) on the other hand may have partaken in the domestication as they used to relish mare's milk, just as most nomadic cultures in Central Asia still do.

The Sintashta people (possibly Aryan émigres from India) used horses, but that is different than domestication. Their knowledge of 'horse-driven chariotry, fortifications and industrial scale manufacture of metal projectiles' indicate that they would either themselves be from India or would have learnt it from India through some form of knowledge transfer. Also their tendency to prefer cow's and goat's milk would indicate that their origin was India where the cow was first domesticated, either earlier or in parallel with the cow in the Fertile Crescent.

[RajeshA]

Of all the food items mentioned in the Rig Veda, horse meat in the diet appears in only poem 162 as part of a sacrifice. This is is stark contrast to the Sithashta culture where horse meat formed 20-30 % of the diet. No wonder they found so many bones.

Horse meat constituted 20-30% of Andonovo Meat consumption

But it seems the Sintashta people were still not sufficiently intimate with the horse, considering that they were possibly émigres from India, possibly Asura-worshippers, who unlike the purely Vedic people, relished meat. I say the Sintashta people were not intimate with the horse simply because they too didn't prefer drinking mare's milk, but instead like drinking cow's milk, something they appreciated from time immemorial when their ancestors were in India.

Vedic seers say that Asuras(-followers) used to emulate various Vedic yajnas without really appreciating the deeper meaning of them.

That is why Asvamedha was misunderstood by the Sintashta people and they used to have extensive horse sacrifices and meals.

[shiv]

Rajesh India was and is a fertile land. Those who migrated to Central Asia went to a less bountiful land and had to depend on horse meat because they would not get two crops a year like India.

[RajeshA]

The Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization

[Nilesh Oak]

1. Holocene (12000 ybp) monsoon not strong enough.

I don't know of any evidence to attest this statement. Recently I came across a news (context of monsoon and IVC and eastward migration). I wrote to authors asking specific evidence that led them to believe that monsoon shifted to east. No response.

2. RV comes (? Ybp) monsoon doing great as Saraswati has strong flow.

Sarasvati fed by Satlaj and Yamuna (both glacier fed rivers). No reason to assume Sarasvati depended on Monsoon for its strong flow. Monsoon would have added to it.

3. MBH comes (~ 7500 ybp) mentions weak Saraswati flow.

MBH mentions weak Sarasvati flow (MBH has many mythologized stories, in MBH times, about Sarasavti) including disappearsnce of Sarasvati at places in sand.

4. SIVC comes (5300-3300 ybp) reasonable monsoon but Saraswati flow is nothing to dance about.

[/quote]

Again, drying up of Sarasavti and monsoon is poor line of thinking. Dryaing of Sarasvati has much to do with shifting of Satlaj to west, Yamuna to east and the cause of these changes itself.. tectonic shifts.

[Virendra]

Again, drying up of Sarasavti and monsoon is poor line of thinking. Dryaing of Sarasvati has much to do with shifting of Satlaj to west, Yamuna to east and the cause of these changes itself.. tectonic shifts.

The volume of samples in the study of Sarasvati would have to increase drastically to substantiate any theory holistically beyond doubts. But anyway, here's to the contrary to your point:

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... ation.html
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 466772.ece
http://www.whoi.edu/main/news-releases? ... cid=138489
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/28 ... n-20120528
http://openblogbd.wordpress.com/tag/sarasvati-river/

...The new geological evidence—sediments, topography— shows that rivers were indeed sizable and highly active in this region, but most likely due to strong monsoons. However, there is no evidence of wide incised valleys like along the Indus and its tributaries and researchers did not find any cut-through, incised connections to either of the two nearby Himalayan-fed rivers of Sutlej and Yamuna. The new study argues that these crucial differences prove that the Sarasvati (Ghaggar-Hakra) was not Himalayan-fed, but a perennial monsoon-supported watercourse, and that aridification reduced it to short seasonal flows...

What I'm wondering is, how does the question of Sarasvati's glacial or non-glacial sourcing become relevant to OIT?
Per my knowledge, the monsoon sourcing still complies with "Giribhya a Samudrat" as Monsoons ultimately play their final round at Himalayas. Or is there something I missed?

Regards,
Virendra

[Nilesh Oak]

What I'm wondering is, how does the question of Sarasvati's glacial or non-glacial sourcing become relevant to OIT?

Because Sarasvati of Rigveda is the MIGHTEST river. Rigveda does refer to Sindhu becoming mighty.....but that gets us into which Mandala are earlier and later Manadalas. You may refer to Srikant Talegeri's books and also Talegeri/Witzel debate.

On a broader point.... (reg. Virendra ji.. issue you raised reg. conflicting evidence et.c..)

There are enough indications (yes, this could contrasted with more articles, newspaper clips, peer reviewed journals) that Mighty Sarasvati might have lost its might status as early as 'early holocene (not my term) or even 'earlier' See work of Frankfort (now I know someone will come and will make casual and careless remark.. such as "but work of Frankfort is already being dismissed.. etc." I have nothing to say to them ... especially those who depend on their knowledge listening to someone (or wikpidia/google) between two bites of Naan, ball of sambar rice or rasgulla (pun intended. I love them all and that is how I eat them)

Reg. controversial evidence, if something can get published, contrary to other position.. common man calls it evidence. One needs to go at least 2 levels deeper (usually 20.. not unlike peeling onion) to figure out the subtstance of each claim.

[member_20317]

Nilesh ji and RajeshA ji

India was almost forever amongst the most aforested place on the Earth only perhaps a little less then present day Amazonia. IOW moisture laden winds from Chile driven by high winds finally settling over mostly the Peninsular India and lower Himalayas. No real need to go to higher himalayas. The need for tributaries from higher Himalayas for Saraswati to be Mighty seems more like a felt need not a proven need. The big rivers like Amazon and Mississippi are not Glacier fed. Here I feel like you are underestimating the power of monsoons and a large catchment area like the Indian subcontinent. Thar and Middle east were rich in vegetation once. I take this as sign of shifting of the monsoons from west to east. Even to this day the monsoon deficient parts are in west of India and monsoons are heavy in the east.

Besides after my exchange with Atri ji, I am almost convinced that Ancient Indian texts provide descriptions of fluctuations in monsoon intensity too. Almost because somebody has not already written a book on it.

Also I do not disagree that tributries originating from present day Tibet could have changed course from Saraswati to other rivers. Ganga and Brahmaputra themselves have been said to have changed courses drastically due to techtonic changes.


Added later just to inject ideas:
wiki - "The Mississippi River has the world's fourth largest drainage basin ("watershed" or "catchment"). The basin covers more than 1,245,000 sq mi (3,220,000 km2), including all or parts of 32 U.S. states and two Canadian provinces. The drainage basin empties into the Gulf of Mexico, part of the Atlantic Ocean. The total catchment of the Mississippi River covers nearly 40% of the landmass of the continental United States.

"

[brihaspati]

My pointer about limitations in the practical/implemented numerical astronomical models [not the theory] was to point out the near impossibility of relying on a working numerical model based on the Newtonian gravitational theory applied to the solar system. .

What I was actually referring to was the double edged sword of archeo-astronomy based on current implementations of the models.

Nilesh ji was being dismissed based on the supposed reliability of these very same current models. Please do think of my actual argument - if someone like Nilesh ji can be dismissed based on the "accuracy" of these models, then someone like Nilesh ji cannot be dismissed also on the basis of the same models - since the model is not accurate or reliable enough to deny what Nilesh ji is claiming.

Regarding the questions on the monsoon+glaciation+etc:

our sources of estimating this is primarily based on sea-core, [sometimes ice-core], cave stalagmite-stalactite data - which gives us a pretty good precipitation record. There are several studies based on ocean-core and some relatively new ones based on land-based cave data - that shows monsoon weakening in the deep ice age phase [near the LGM]. In general, increased atmospheric moisture content appears to coincide with the major phases of rapid sea-level increase+evidence of glacial retreat [where feasible]+sedimentation pattern from the ocean cores+O18[and other elements] - the first major one being roughly around 12,500 YBP.

If one plots the reconstructed rainfall records estimated for the subcontinental zone - one sees an almost continuous increase from this point onwards to roughly 7700 YBP. In between there was short - 900-1000 year period f reversal of this trend coinciding with younger Dryas. Then the level falls of slightly - but not as much as till the first major melt-event - to current times.

So yes the monsoon has weakened again from 7700 ybp point, but it is still way higher than what it was say 10000 ybp.

Denying the flow of Saraswati in the first post-melt phase is tricky - because the ocean cores indicate rapid increase in fresh-water discharge in the northern Arabian sea. Now claiming this was no Saraswati but "sindhu river" is just that - a claim. The whole problem is complicated by the very nature of sedimentation in the Himalayas itself, with the geological processes at the plate boundaries re-rolling up accumulated layers - thus erosion and subsequent sedimentation itself may carry very mixed signals.

This is a whole extended issue but not eneough time now.

My whole point is - use these data points to problematize the nay-sayers. The denial lobby fanatically dismisses anything that goes against their dogma - often on the same supposed "scientific evidence" that needs to be understood for its limitations. Science says not to reject default hypotheses without strong evidence for an alternative, but most of these situations are such that - if the real science was actually understood and interpreted as they were meant to be - then one could understand that there is not sufficient evidence to reject the alternatives either.

[Nilesh Oak]

IOW moisture laden winds from Chile driven by high winds finally settling over mostly the Peninsular India and lower Himalayas. No real need to go to higher himalayas. The need for tributaries from higher Himalayas for Saraswati to be Mighty seems more like a felt need not a proven need.

rav_g, I will speak for myself. I do NOT have/see Need/want/demand for tributaries from higher Himalayas for Sarasvati. I made that statement because there is indeed evidence to that effect. Am I discounting contrary evidence? No, I am stating the need to evaluate that and not leaving it for someone to do it. I am doing it myself. Am doing it for at least 5+ years now. OIT or othewise, none of them are spectator sports, they are team sports and individual players have to contribute. Thank you for your and others contribution on this active forum.

I have one separate folder on Sarasvation my external hard drive that has papers/books referring to Sarasavti evidence (it existed/did not exist. himayalya feed/no himalaya feed). Lot of stuff going all over.. with everyone drawing whaterver is convenient for their hypothesis.

One should look for (himalaya/non himalaya, yes/no) evidence that contradits one position (whatever that position may be). I get more excited by contradictory evidence than corroborative evidence for my hypothesis...since that allows one to test the mantle of one's theory! (e.g. Conflicting Observations - Chapter 9 of my book). These conflicting evidences are also promising because when one does, by luck, reconciles them, it typically leads to new insights we never had.

(e.g. I was simply testing statement of Atri ji regarding Ribhus and beginning of monsson ~ summer solstice and if ManishH ji would not have objected to it, I would not have bothered to go back and check on positions of Canis Major/Canis Minor for that time period. The additional gife (out of this astronomy simualtion manthan) was the realization that Canis Major/minor reach their lowest declination (ManishH Ji confused equtorial cooridnate system with earth's equator....coordinate systme refers to celestial equator) when summer solstice coincides with it.. at least during last 3 rounds of precession of equinnoxs.)

[member_20317]

Re. Brihaspati ji - "plate boundaries re-rolling up accumulated layers."

Thats something to think about. Thanks for the lead. Plates have moved in ways that the whole of the Island of Dwarka is under the sea now. So this possiblity over exactly the same time period cannot be discounted at all.

[Nilesh Oak]

It is mentioned in puran that Suvarna Dwarika submerged in great flood/tsunami. What is found submerged near Bet Dwarika corroborates this. But, Mul Dwarka is also ancient place.

I had been to Mul Dwarka many times and other historical areas near Kodinar/Somnath. Too much of antiquity there.

Murgugan ji,

Do you happen to remember/recall which Puran the reference to 'Suvarna Dwarka getting submerged in great flood/tsunami' appears and also where (if you happen to know) within that specific Puran?

This is critical reference and could have great implications for some of the geology data I am looking at.

Appreciate your help,

[shiv]

Re. Brihaspati ji - "plate boundaries re-rolling up accumulated layers."

Thats something to think about. Thanks for the lead. Plates have moved in ways that the whole of the Island of Dwarka is under the sea now. So this possiblity over exactly the same time period cannot be discounted at all.

I always assumed that the Saraswati dried up for this reason - a geologic shift perhaps cause by a series of earthquakes. Sometimes a very small change - of just a couple of meters in relatively flat terrain can open up new channels and change the course of a stream, and later erosion along the new course may completely kill the old course.

[ManishH]

The Sintashta people (possibly Aryan émigres from India) used horses, but that is different than domestication.

Please; there is no use creating a theory which not only has no evidence; but rather strong contrary evidence.

On evidence of pottery types alone, it is well known that Sintashta culture derives from Abashevo culture that preceded it on the west and extended from upper Don to foothills of the Urals. From Anthony's book pp 382 ...

Late Abashevo traditions persisted west of the Urals probably as late
as 1900 BCE, definitely into the Sintashta period, since late Abashevo
vessels are found in Sintashta and Potapovka graves. Early Abashevo
ceramic styles strongly influenced Sintashta ceramics.
...
The easternmost Abashevo sites wrapped around the southern
slopes of the Urals and extended into the Upper Ural basin, and it is these
sites in particular that played a role in the origins of Sintashta.

PS: there are figures of pottery too in the book which I cannot scan right now.

Ditto with the theory of "horse in India in 9,000 BC"; Where is the archaeological evidence for this fable ? The earliest evidence for horse I remember from previous discussion was Surkotada (2100 - 1700 BC).

[shiv]

ManishH ji. No one has claimed horse in India in 9000 BC. The only statement that was made was that evidence of Horse domestication from 9000 BC has been found in Saudi Arabia making the "Central Asia horse domestication" theory less credible.

You demand proof even as you are only able to supply hypotheses and speculation.

The only existing "proof" is what genetics offers and that shows no massive migration to India in the last 7,000 to 12,000 years. The Central Asia horsemen theory of migration to India in the last 3500 years is untenable on genetic, archaeological, and linguistic grounds.

There is pottery evidence of the Indus valley civilization in Mesopotamia and, but no BMAC pottery in the Indus valley. But that should have nothing to do with the Rig Veda because the Rig Veda according to your Central Asian vegetarian pastoral horse riding bards came 1000 years after Indian Valley Civilization. There is zero pottery proven to be associated with the Rig Veda. Only speculation.

[ManishH]

ManishH ji we have been through all this before. It is complete rubbish to find archaeological remains 2000 km away from the Rig Veda and conclude that the remains of domesticated horses in graves there and the importance of the horse in those archaeological remains suggests a connection with the Rig Veda when that conclusion happens to be convenient.

Unlike you, I have to go by evidence. If the earliest evidence for horse domestication, chariotry is found there, I cannot just wear blinkers and ignore it.

Your own ref David Anthony says how important horse meat was for the Rig Vedic people and you just pull out one more speculative reference and try to say exactly the opposite because

First my reference is not speculative - Koryakova & Epimakhov refers to an isotopic analysis used to make that determination.

Second, I never said the opposite - horse milk and meat is important yes - but when one compares to cow's milk, the evidence clearly shows cow's milk as even more important part of diet. Where does Anthony's book contradict this comparative data between cow's milk and mare milk in Sintashta-Petrovka archaeological evidence ?

By the way, how come Sanskrit has only a 4% substrate of a non IE language

Please quote the source and quantify what is being specified as a percentage- it is from FBJ Kuiper and he gives the figure using words that are unambiguously non-IE by phonetic criteria alone. This is standard scholarly conservatism. Eg. one of the criteria he used was that IE words cannot have two voiced consonants.

An example to give an idea of the methodology - we know that 'candy' in English comes from Sanskrit khaṇḍa. But there is nothing in the phonetics of the word 'candy' that is foreign to native English sound. I can conclude that it is foreign to English from historical knowledge of sugar cultivation and trade. Unlike the word 'psychology', which from phonetics alone can be determined to be a Greek import. So if I, like Kuiper, were to prepare a list of foreign words in English with no historical documents, I'd not include 'candy' in the foreign list.

So using the conservative approach, a Sanskrit word like 'dhanva/dhanu' (bow) is not included in Kuiper's list of non-IE words, as it doesn't violate the IE phonetics, and it's cognate is found in Avestan too. But does that immediately make the word an IE one - no. To conclusively say a word is IE origin, requires a cognate should exist in a geographically disparate language too. Without which, 'dhanva' might as well have been an Indo-Iranian word.

while Greek has 40% and German 25%

Source please ? But this is nothing surprising - neither Greece, nor Germany is the proposed origin of the IE language family.

[shiv]

By the way, how come Sanskrit has only a 4% substrate of a non IE language

Please quote the source and quantify what is being specified as a percentage- it is from FBJ Kuiper and he gives the figure using words that are unambiguously non-IE by phonetic criteria alone. This is standard scholarly conservatism. Eg. one of the criteria he used was that IE words cannot have two voiced consonants.

Witzel agrees with this and this remains the current best estimate. Have you got any estimate of a non IE substrate in Rig Vedic Sanskrit that exceeds 10%?

With such a low non IE substrate the only possibilities for Classical Sanskrit are

1. All indigenous people in India were killed leaving only migrant Indo European speakers in the Area
2. There were no people at all in Punjab when the Central Asian Horse riding bards came in 1500-1200 BC
3. Sanskrit arose de novo in India

[shiv]

First my reference is not speculative - Koryakova & Epimakhov refers to an isotopic analysis used to make that determination.

My quote too came from a source that used isotopic analyses of human remains

Second, I never said the opposite - horse milk and meat is important yes - but when one compares to cow's milk, the evidence clearly shows cow's milk as even more important part of diet. Where does Anthony's book contradict this comparative data between cow's milk and mare milk in Sintashta-Petrovka archaeological evidence ?

I never said Anthony's book says that, but archaeological evidence of horse domestication in central Asia includes analyses of remains in pots that show traces of mare's milk, in a culture in central Asia that you are loudly proclaiming as corresponding so closely with Rig Vedic culture that it constitutes "proof" that they were one and the same. That is speculative nonsense considering that the Rig Veda has no references to burials of horses, or of mare's milk. Connecting up horse and language and dates is a bluff that you are promoting.

You wrote earlier

The cattle of the Sintashta and Petrovka cultures were mainly hornless. Horse breeding was aimed at the development and use of the horse's working qualities: speed and energy. It was used only partly as meat. The preliminary isotopic analysis demonstrates that horse meat or milk was not of great importance in the diets of these people (from the Bolshekaraganski cemetery), although cattle and sheep meat and milk were significant dietary staples (Privat 2002).

Where are the 3500 year old cattle bones in India that show evidence of butchery?

The coincidental occurrence of praise of the horse in the undated Rig Veda and horse bones in graves of a central Asian culture that ate, drank and rode horses are being used to cook up a tenuous connection with the verses of the Rig Veda thousands of km away in a concoction that remains unproven and implausible.

[Murugan]

It is mentioned in puran that Suvarna Dwarika submerged in great flood/tsunami. What is found submerged near Bet Dwarika corroborates this. But, Mul Dwarka is also ancient place.

I had been to Mul Dwarka many times and other historical areas near Kodinar/Somnath. Too much of antiquity there.

Murgugan ji,

Do you happen to remember/recall which Puran the reference to 'Suvarna Dwarka getting submerged in great flood/tsunami' appears and also where (if you happen to know) within that specific Puran?

This is critical reference and could have great implications for some of the geology data I am looking at.

Appreciate your help,

Nilesh-ji, Namaskaram!

Bhagvat Puran (Srimad Bhagvatam).

http://www.bhagavata.org/canto11/chapter30.html

(44) As he was speaking thus rose right before the eyes of the chariot driver the chariot, along with the horses and the flag of Garuda marking it, up into the sky, o King of kings. (45) And while Vishnu's divine weapons were following, spoke Janârdana to the driver who stood perplexed about what was happening: (46) 'O driver, head for Dvârakâ and inform Our family members about the mutual destruction of their close relatives, about My condition and about the passing away of Sankarshana. (47) You and your relatives should not remain in Dvârakâ; now the Yadu capital is abandoned by Me it will sink into the ocean. (48) Each of you taking your own family as well as Our parents with you, should together, protected by Arjuna, head for Indraprastha. (49) You however, fixed in knowledge and indifferent about My mâyâ will, remaining firm in My devotional service, understand what I arranged and make your peace with it.'

(50) Thus being addressed by Him he circumambulated Him offering his obeisances again and again, and went, after placing His lotus feet on his head, with a heavy heart to the city.'

And Here

http://www.bhagavata.org/canto11/chapter31.html

Dvârakâ, once it was abandoned by the Lord, was immediately flooded by the ocean except, o King, for the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead [see archeology pictures 1, 2 & 3 of the site].

Dvârakâ abandoned by the Lord, was immediately overflooded by the ocean except, o King, for the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead [see archeology pictures 1,2 & 3 of the site]. (Vedabase)

Article here in wikidot

http://veda.wikidot.com/dwaraka

The portends of destruction seen by Shri Krishna who advised immediate evacuation of Dwarakaare stated in Bhagavata Purana. Dwaraka abandoned by Hari (Krishna) was swallowed by the sea. The submergence took place immediately after Shri Krishna departed from the world.

****
(added later)

Submersion into the Sea

After Krishna left the earth for Vaikuntha,about 36 years after the Mahabharat War (3138 BC), and the major Yadava leaders were killed in disputes among themselves, Arjuna went to Dwarka to bring Krishna's grandsons and the Yadava wives to Hastinapur, to safety. After Arjuna left Dwarka, it was submerged into the sea. Following is the account given by Arjuna, found in the Mahabharata:

...imposed on it by nature. The sea rushed into the city. It coursed through the streets of the beautiful city. The sea covered up everything in the city. I saw the beautiful buildings becoming submerged one by one. In a matter of a few moments it was all over. The sea had now become as placid as a lake. There was no trace of the city. Dwaraka was just a name; just a memory.

The Vishnu Purana also mentions the submersion of Dwarka, stating

On the same day that Krishna departed from the earth the powerful dark-bodied Kali Age descended. The oceans rose and submerged the whole of Dwarka.

[ManishH]

archaeological evidence of horse domestication in central Asia includes analyses of remains in pots that show traces of mare's milk, in a culture in central Asia that you are loudly proclaiming as corresponding so closely with Rig Vedic culture

First, Botai culture where mare milk traces are found in pots is 1,500 years before Sintashta.
Second, I'm not claiming Botai as close to ṛgvedic culture.

Third, Botai and Sintashta are not comparable because Botai has zero cattle remains. Anthony's book pp 221 ...

A few domesticated cattle(?) bones might be found in some Tersek sites, but there were none in Botai sites, farther east; and neither had sheep

Whereas Sintashta culture reflects a mixed cattle/horse economy which is more akin to RV. We see that in archaeological cultures which used a mixed cattle/horse lifestyle, cow milk dominates. This is common sense as cows give much more milk than mares.

It's plain common sense that one cannot take a horse-only society like Botai as a template for mixed horse/cattle society of RV at all.

[ManishH]

(e.g. I was simply testing statement of Atri ji regarding Ribhus and beginning of monsson ~

Nileshji: you still haven't given the source of associating ṛbhu-s with monsoon and/or summer solstice. If your basic premise has no basis, what value is the rest of your theory ? That's why peer review is critical. You can make great book sales by appealing to the readers' passion - but in this case, objectivity is lost.

ManishH Ji confused equtorial cooridnate system with earth's equator....coordinate systme refers to celestial equator) when summer solstice coincides with it.. at least during last 3 rounds of precession of equinnoxs.)

There is no confusion; celestial equator is nothing but projection of earth's equator to the sky. For observations using naked eye, the ecliptic was of greater value to the ancients due to it's more stable nature (precession of earth's axis doesn't affect it); and convenience making observations (using sun or moon). A fact seen even today in preparation of Hindu horoscopes.

Whereas, precession of equinoxes was relevant for calendaring and knowledge of ayanāṃśa was used to do that calculation.

[Murugan]

Svan == Canis Majoris

Svan is common translation of Canis Majoris side by side Brihat Lubdhak. Even Aryan foreigners use this word

http://www2.raritanval.edu/planetarium/ ... hology.pdf

In the Book written by some Aryans "Vedic Index of Names and Subjects"
canis majoris is identified as Divya Svan

***
The book 'Vedic Index of Names and Subject' - provided in the link is of 1912 ediction, clearly translation Canis Majoris as Divya Svan...

http://ia600309.us.archive.org/5/items/ ... cduoft.pdf

and the Link above of 2008 mentions Svan for Canis Majoris

[ManishH]

Witzel agrees with this and this remains the current best estimate.

I have no issues with the 4% given the conservative methodology. The important point to note is that FBJ Kuiper's 4% is based only on vocabulary borrowing (the %age of borrowed words that are conclusively non-IE) - it doesn't give a measure of how much (in %age) does the phonology of Sanskrit differ from the common IE parent. Eg. if I just take one phonetic trait of debuccalization - replacement of final -s with -ḥ, it's 99%!

Vocabulary %ages from substrate languages are not a measure of language origins. Such vocabulary borrowings are determined more by social conditions and willingness to adopt a new vocabulary. Phonetics however is pervasive and affects words regularly.

To give a modern example from bilingualism, my substrate is Hindi, but I often converse in English at work. I rarely (4%) use Hindi words in work conversation. But my articulation of English, like most Indians, is uniformly (99%) influenced by my Hindi phonetics - I retroflex the initial sound of 'tame' and 'dame' unlike a native English speaker who uses a dental stop.

[Murugan]

Svan == Lubdhak == Sirius

So Yudistira and Svan ascended into paradise and Indra, in recognition of their devotion to each other, set in the sky the constellations of the Great Dog, whose central star Sirius is the brightest of all in the heavens.

[Murugan]

Rbhus in Vedic Literature association with Monsoon

… "Oh, Rbhus! You were asleep, thereafter ask the sun Agohya, who is it that woke us up. The He-goat replied, the hound is the awakener. As the year is passed, today you declare the same" Rigveda 1.161.13

Here the He-goat tells that the season is over and the frogs announce the monsoon.

[Murugan]

Die Ṛbhu's im Ṛgveda ...

Arthur William Ryder

Language German

http://archive.org/details/diebhusimgveda00rydegoog

[Murugan]

Very Good website for various rigvedic references

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/rvs:rbhus

[Murugan]

Rbhus and four seasons

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-rvs:rv04-h30

3 May they who made their Parents, who were lying like posts that moulder, young again for ever,
May Vaja, Vibhvan, Rbhu, joined with Indra , protect our sacrifice, the Somalovers-.
4 As for a year the Rbhus kept the Milchcow-, throughout a year fashioned and formed her body,
And through a years' space still sustained her brightness, through these their labours they were
made immortal.
5 Two beakers let us make, thus said the eldest. Let us make three, this was the youngers'
sentence.
Four beakers let us make, thus spoke the youngest. Tvastar approved this rede of yours, O Rbhus.
6 The men spake truth and even so they acted: this Godlike way of theirs the Rbhus followed.
And Tvastar, when he looked on the four beakers resplendent as the day, was moved with envy.
7 When for twelve days the Rbhus joyed reposing as guests of him who never may be hidden,
They made fair fertile fields, they brought the rivers. Plants spread over deserts, waters filled
the hollows.

'Aryan' view :

Zimmer' also finds an attempt at intercalation in the
famous 12 days in which the Rbhus are said to have slept in
the house of Agohya." He thinks that they represent twelve
days added at the winter solstice to equate the lunar year of
354 days and the solar year of 366 days ; and from the reverence
paid in German antiquity to the * 12 nights,' he infers
that this mode of intercalation is Indo-Germanic.^ There can
be little doubt that this view is wrong, and that the 12 days are
merely the ' reflexion of the year' {samvatsarasya pratima)
^ in the sense that they represent the twelve months, and have no
relation to chronology at all.

the Other View:

Read 4. Introduction of the Lunar Months

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi- ... etype=.pdf

[Arjun]

Unlike you, I have to go by evidence. If the earliest evidence for horse domestication, chariotry is found there, I cannot just wear blinkers and ignore it.

Admire these worthy academic sentiments in you, ManishH ji.

It seems to me that to ignore the critical evidence of mare's milk being a delicacy in Central Asia since or prior to the early Bronze Age and continuing to this day - and the complete lack of any mention of this famous Central Asian delicacy in the Rig Veda, would be highly blinkered as well.

In case you have addressed this issue in one of your posts, can you refer me to it?

[Atri]

रृभु is cloud. Will elaborate is later.. रृभव = clouds

Indra is lord of rubhus= lord of clouds= lord of rains

Awakening of clouds = sudden movement of clouds in concerted direction. This happens in monsoon.

The sanskrit word for "year" is related to rains - वर्ष

If i am not mistaken the word samvatsara संवत्सर too related to rains, but will have check this one.

[RajeshA]

Publication Date: January 8, 2007
Authors: Ludmila Koryakova, Andrej Epimakhov
The Urals and Western Siberia in the Bronze and Iron Ages

This book is the first synthesis of the archaeology of the Urals and Western Siberia. It presents a comprehensive overview of the late prehistoric cultures of these regions, which are of key importance for the understanding of long-term changes in Eurasia. At the crossroads of Europe and Asia, the Urals and Western Siberia are characterized by great environmental and cultural diversity which is reflected in the variety and richness of their archaeological sites. Based on the latest achievements of Russian archaeologists, this study demonstrates the temporal and geographical range of its subjects starting with a survey of the chronological sequence from the late fourth millennium BC to the early first millennium CE. Recent discoveries made in different regions of the area contribute to an understanding of several important issues, such as development of Eurasian metallurgy, technological and ritual innovations, the emergence and development of pastoral nomadism and its role in Eurasian interactions, and major sociocultural fluctuations of the Bronze and Iron Ages.

Here is a review

The authors do not directly identify archaeological cultures with known ethnic entities of the ancient world. However, they explain historical processes in Eurasia by way of steady waves of migrations moving through the vast Eurasian steppe in a westward direction. Each wave bears the name of a people who are presumed to have headed the movement (Aorsi, Alans and others). This westward movement is illustrated by the appearance of ‘eastern’ imports or objects of ‘eastern’ appearance in graves in western Eurasia.

Code: Select all

http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/95230693/?tab=summary

Another cover:



It does look like Yoga.