Indian Space Program Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Aug 2012 18:21

Of course OT, but questions about priorities should be definitely entertained in a democratic setup, especially when it deals with general public. Having linked the topic here, I would say devote a separate thread for that, but must be answered and can't be BS-ed. The needs of all people must be taken care of.

And that does not mean Mars mission should be de-listed from priorities. This is one way for good governance to return at helm. We have crores of kalmadi-raja gang to answer those questions and how to effectively use money for upliftment and empowerment.

coming back, we should encourage the mars mission to carry a mini rover.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Aug 2012 20:01

Mars mission makes more sense and should have higher priority than a human space mission for now. It is not that the latter is not important, but can wait for a reliable human rated launcher.

One has to look at the orbiter mission to Mars as just an extension of existing technology in earth remote sensing that ISRO has developed, and whatever we learn from the Mars mission can also be applied for earth missions. There is a symbiosis in all planetary remote sensing missions. This one has the added challenge of leaving the earth+moon system too.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 04 Aug 2012 20:54

I don't disagree with the Mars mission...but my point is simple...ISRO needs to think big ....
the mars mission could have been done even in say 1995 with PSLV and remote sensing technology available....
Problem starts to crop up the moment ISRO have to develop something new.....its 20 years now and we still don;t have a
reliable cryo stage....
So the issue is that ISRO needs to start setting priorities now...and work in mission mode ....

Why does it need a Cryo stage for manned mission and why should it be capsule for 3 people....

Take the PSLV , as a base use the liquid Vikas engine and work towards a 1-2 person capsule...get the
confidence on the reliability front......
Work towards a semi-cryo engine.....
Take the last 20 years of ISRO history and tell me one substantial new liquid / solid engine technology developed.
Even the GSLV Mark 3 , for its weight of around 600 tonnes, will have a payload of around 4 tonne only to GTO....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Aug 2012 21:44

Manned mission as a one-time demo does not gain much in terms of spin-offs. It does some things new for us but that is all. We will need a bigger space station like program to make it really useful with multiple manned missions.

Robotic missions or just exploratory missions can do wonders for science and discovery with minimal investments that is likely to happen. The returns are much larger. Besides, what if we are able to land on the moon but have not developed the science expertise to utilize that ability yet. There is a reason why US missions to the moon died a natural death, they came much before planetary sciences had evolved to good maturity and better understanding. The fundamentals have to come first before technology can be developed optimally. In this trade-off studies manned missions for any country is logically low, except for H&D purposes. Again, the only ones who can do this are big countries in a sustainable way, so India definitely has a future there, but there is no need to hurry and waste resources in doing so. It has to develop in a more coherent way along with planetary exploration and other abilities demonstrated first.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 05 Aug 2012 01:09

while Mars mission is good for science, I would prefer Antrix to make compact comm. sats like the Iridium ones by following up with a JV with Russia and using their launch vehicles. Iridium failed because its services were expensive and one of the strenghts of ISRO is its cost effective programs.

Note: Those who think its another 'me too', even the Mars mission is a 'me too' then, its this viewpoint thats need to be corrected and see it as breaking the 6th nation syndrome thats Kalam saab keeps mentioning

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 05 Aug 2012 07:07

we are getting a opportunity to lunch Mars Mission in November 2013, next will be in 2018. So Mars mission before Manned mission makes sense.

regarding a Mars Rover, we are yet to build a rover for moon, that will be launched by GSLV, for launching a rover with PSLV for Mars Mission, need to scale it down, which is not possible in given time frame.

So a mission like chandrayan 1 for Mars is best possible option in current scenario.

Once Chandrayan 2 will be successful, we can consider the similar program for Mars.

regarding Manned Missions, first we need to successfully test GSLV Mark 3, GSLV Mark 3 operational launch is scheduled for 2016 so i don't think Manned Missions will happen before 2018.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 05 Aug 2012 12:17

if ISRO manages to put "mangalyaan-1"

into mars orbit in the first attempt itself, it would be a unique feat in the history of space exploration. Both US of A and US of SR attempted fly bys before attempting to orbit mars. The link below gives a summary of missions to mars with many missions tagged with failed\communication failure\destroyed during launch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mars- ... rtrait.jpg

US is leading the way with 3 landers and 3 rovers operated successfully.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 05 Aug 2012 13:09

For the stress on GSLV for manned mission, please check the for the following possibility of and Indian rocket comparable to Long March 2F. I am not an expert on rocket science...but for stage to stage we can have a following configuration
Stage 0 :
Long March 2F - Strap-on boosters x 4 - Thrust (vac): 4 x 814 kN
Indian Rocket - Stage 0 - Strap-on boosters x 4 - Uprated Vikas Engine : 4x 800 kN

Stage number: 1 - Core stage
Long March 2F - Thrust (vac):4x 814 = 3,256 kN
Indian Rocket - Stage 1 - 4x800 = 3200 kN

Stage number: 2 - Final stage
Long March 2F - Thrust (vac): 831 kN
Indian Rocket - Final Stage - a modified liquid engine with the required thrust.

Go to mars or for that matter any other planet..simply NO ISSUES....but had we started somethings on the above line in 2003( when China sent its first man to space) then at least by now we could have a man - rated rocket. And doing something definitely has one very big spin off...and that is making the country a much more confident lot.....

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 05 Aug 2012 18:01

India has poverty problems and its children need help. But the amount of money that India is spending on it space program is probably a drop in the bucket compared to its other budgetary items. I know it is that way for the US. Also it is just as necessary to feed a country's spirit and what better way to do it than to pursue technical and scientific excellence? It will pay the country back in the long run.

IMHO opinion perhaps as a first mission India could do a fly by of Mars? Just to perfect its deep space capabilities? Not only would it gain an upper stage rocket burn experience in order to leave earth orbit but India would gain deep space comminications and navigation correction abilities as it flew by Mars and its moons?

These are not some la-te-dah anybody can do it experiences. It is real technical challenge that can be built upon for missions to *anywhere*.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 05 Aug 2012 18:47

Panama to set up satellite tracking station with ISRO help

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 05 Aug 2012 18:51

PSLV making India proud, says Chandrayaan director

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Aug 2012 02:04

The chinese deep space antennas are considered twice larger (64m) compared to Indian one at byalalu (32m). Let us see if we would invest more into a wider one for the Mars mission.

One could also consider relay satellites for deep space communications. So, it depends which is cheaper and plus which by extra money actually enables us more, and empower us for the future.

Perhaps better technology in active t/r communications can help too.. AlGaN/GaN based ones could help us better in the mmw.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 06 Aug 2012 12:07

TSJones wrote:India has poverty problems and its children need help. But the amount of money that India is spending on it space program is probably a drop in the bucket compared to its other budgetary items. I know it is that way for the US. Also it is just as necessary to feed a country's spirit and what better way to do it than to pursue technical and scientific excellence? It will pay the country back in the long run.

IMHO opinion perhaps as a first mission India could do a fly by of Mars? Just to perfect its deep space capabilities? Not only would it gain an upper stage rocket burn experience in order to leave earth orbit but India would gain deep space comminications and navigation correction abilities as it flew by Mars and its moons?

These are not some la-te-dah anybody can do it experiences. It is real technical challenge that can be built upon for missions to *anywhere*.

The next Mars Window is after 2017.

So MAVEN and the Indian Mission are the Last 2 Missions in the Near Future to be launched in Next Window of 2017.

If we try a Fly-by It would be simply not worth it considering a Orbiter Mission covers up all the Objectives of a Fly-by. Also We hardly have 15 Months till the Next window and the only option to attempt a Mars Mission or the next 5 years, the best option is the 25 Kg orbiter providing India an option to demonstrate all the Outer Space Capabilities.

Also The Indian Deep Space Network has successfully tracked and communicated with European Venus and Mars Missions.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Aug 2012 15:54

I do not agree with Mr Nair's views entirely but it is important to post it here for discussion.
ISRO’s priorities not right, says former chief Nair

Bangalore: The Mars mission should not have been a priority at this stage for India which, instead, ought to have devoted time and energy on getting its rocket operational again and give momentum to the human space flight programme, former ISRO chief G Madhavan Nair said.

“My personal opinion is: this (Mars mission) is not a big priority project for us. We should have concentrated more on qualifying the cryogenic engine (for GSLV-Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle) and make our manned mission initiative move forward,” Nair told PTI here.

G Madhavan Nair said ISRO’s priorities are misplaced. Reuters.

The Union Cabinet last night gave go-ahead to the Mars mission, clearing the proposal of Department of Space to put a satellite in an orbit around Mars to study the Red Planet.

Nair, who has accomplished 25 successful missions during his tenure of six years as Chairman of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and Secretary in the Department of Space, argued that for India, the manned mission (human space flight programme) is the “immediate priority”.

“That’s where the big gap is. The United States space shuttle has failed and they don’t have a launch vehicle. Only Russians have an operating system. China went to the extent of creating a mini (space) station,” he said.

“So, in that race India is lagging behind and unless we give a major thrust to Indian manned mission, I think we will be left behind.” Nair said India’s proposed Mars mission is “only a very small payload with not very big scientific objective”.

“We cannot say we can make an impact even nationally or internationally in that (Rs 450 crore Mars mission). Terming the Mars mission as a “peripheral thing”, he said ISRO should, instead, spend its time and energy on qualifying the indigenous cryogenic engine and stage for GSLV (rocket) as also for GSLV-Mk III, which is being developed to carry four-tonne class of satellites.

Nair expressed the view that Mars mission is not a “big challenge”. India’s Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV rocket) has proven a number of times it can put satellites into highly elliptical orbit and “if you (Mars satellite) are in the right direction, it will go around Mars”.

“It’s not even as complex as Chandrayaan-1 mission. By increasing velocity, you will reach Mars. There is not much sophistication involved (in Mars mission) whereas moon mission (Chandrayaan-1) was complex.”

Nair also noted that announcement by China that it would land an exploratory craft on the moon next year, and pointed out that India’s own similar programme (Chandrayaan-2) has been put on a “low key” compared to the Mars mission, which ISRO plans to undertake in November next year with a 25 kg scientific payload.

“It shows that the priorities are not in the right direction,” he said. In an orbit of 500 x 80,000 km around Mars, the Indian orbiter can get only “very sketchy picture” of the Red Planet.

“With highly elliptical orbit, it’s not good for imaging”. This orbit might be good for “atmospheric sounding” but NASA has published enough data on Martian atmosphere and “I don’t think we can add much value”, he said.

But he acknowledged that the Indian orbiter will have a payload to detect the presence of methane. “If that’s a success, then that could be a unique point.

In the end he concludes in direct contradiction to earlier statements. His view is a rocket engineers view. While it is important and necessary tool, the goals are not just to demonstrate technology. It has to be put to use to make investment sense or broaden our knowledge horizon. Human space flight is not new either, so why rush to be there before China ?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 08 Aug 2012 00:55

So what if his view is of a rocket engineer......Human space flight will provide much more technological spin off compared to say a Mars mission.....
also if we need to have some serious space exploration like the US , Russia and other countries are doing then we need
much more powerful rocket engines else we will be limited in sending just 25-30kg payload....

and there is no rush to reach before China....China is much ahead of us in human space flight.....

ISRO needs to come out of the shell of comfort zone of PSLV.....if cryo stage is taking time....start using the liquid engines more extensively.....
The most surprising part is that we can;t do one thing which the US and USSR had done in 1960 and China in 2003......even though we have
the building blocks for it.....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Aug 2012 01:11

I don't see how working on the Mars mission robs ISRO of resources for a future GSLV developmental mission. Both can be done in parallel.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Aug 2012 01:21

I would expect ISRO to focus on robotic missions to any where in deep space. They could consider manned mission on a future decade perhaps.. not important at all. I would say a moon rover and a digger for H3 is more valuable for desh than any other proposal.

We get H3, deep space communication setup, and fantastic public approval for the mission. Search of H3, Dig them out, Transport them back to Earth... all robots. Thanks to A5 technology on RV. This shield could help us get H3 from Moon.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 08 Aug 2012 01:45

that is my very point.....for any deep space robotic missions...u need bigger rockets to carry them.....
and so the more need to focus on liquid , semi-cryo and cryo engine....

please check the space race part 1 link in youtube...when USSR did not had a powerful engine they made a
cluster of smaller engine to get the thrust....what has prevented us to follow similar approach till now....
this is a something which i am unable to comprehend....

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 08 Aug 2012 01:52

dhiraj wrote:that is my very point.....for any deep space robotic missions...u need bigger rockets to carry them.....
and so the more need to focus on liquid , semi-cryo and cryo engine....

please check the space race part 1 link in youtube...when USSR did not had a powerful engine they made a
cluster of smaller engine to get the thrust....what has prevented us to follow similar approach till now....
this is a something which i am unable to comprehend....

May be you forgot that after 8 or so failed tests they had to abandon the method for sending humans to moon. And when they went for their own shuttle BURAN, they had to build bigger rocket engines.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 08 Aug 2012 02:03

Russia still uses cluster engine for Soyuz..proton.....China uses 4 liquid engine in cluster as the first stage of its long march rocket....
please check ....most of the heavy lift rockets uses cluster of engine as there first stage....
and until we are capable of building more powerful engine....forget Buran engine for now....that is too much for ISRO for now
we have to follow the tried and tested method of having cluster of engine to get more thrust and meet our requirement....and not
wait for the day when we have an engine with the required thrust ....

if the current capacity permits then please build the required capability

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 08 Aug 2012 02:10

India should have capabilities for Manned Missions, but first work has to be done for making GSLV (mk2 or mk3) reliable like PSLV.

There is no point to indulge in space race with any nation.

As stated by vision of Dr Vikram Sarabhai, considered the father of Indian Space Programme.

“There are some who question the relevance of space activities in a developing nation. To us, there is no ambiguity of purpose. We do not have the fantasy of competing with the economically advanced nations in the exploration of the moon or the planets or manned space-flight. But we are convinced that if we are to play a meaningful role nationally, and in the community of nations, we must be second to none in the application of advanced technologies to the real problems of man and society."

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Aug 2012 02:21

Can the proponents of human space missions over robotic ones, care to document the extra spin-offs of one over the other in the Indian context.

It is obvious the boost to robotics in India from planetary exploration missions, which have multiple uses even right here on earth. Be it medicine, manufacturing or these days even in military and police forces. What more does putting a human in orbit or on the moon add for us in India ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Aug 2012 03:37

Robotics is the future, especially for deep space mission.
Robots can represent humans on a long journey.

Multiple benefits for humans on Earth
- military - zillion programs and projects on robotics
- civilian space - 10 times more than military use
- Infrastructure machines
- Industrial machines
- what not?

-- If robots can convert 20% of mars CO2.. then we (our future desis - hopefully not the kalmadi kinds / "or perhaps distribute our population

") can start our journey to mars.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 08 Aug 2012 06:24

^+1 Don't discount the colonising Mars part. One day we might be fighting with other advanced space nations over who gets to colonize a bigger chunk of Mars. At the very least its one place the Pakis and BDs can't illegally migrate to or rather infect.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Aug 2012 09:13

Arun Menon wrote:^+1 Don't discount the colonising Mars part. One day we might be fighting with other advanced space nations over who gets to colonize a bigger chunk of Mars. At the very least its one place the Pakis and BDs can't illegally migrate to or rather infect.

They can have it all they want, thank you..,I will keep earth!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 08 Aug 2012 14:36

^^Just like the Assamese kept their earth eh?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 08 Aug 2012 15:27

even for the robotic missions to distance planet, u still need bigger rockets right .....
so even if u discount manned missions u still need bigger rockets...and
i don;t see with the current approach of ISRO, we are anywere near to such a thing.....and there lies the
frustration.....its been 20 years around since the first PSLV launch and we are just tinkering with the strap on rockets for different
variants...

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 13 Aug 2012 22:55

ISRO close to signing deals for launch of 3 foreign satellites
http://t.co/AtHOjK5b

The Indian Space Research Organisation is close to signing contracts for the launch of three foreign satellites on board its home-built Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) from Sriharikota spaceport.

ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrishnan said Antrix Corporation, the space agency’s marketing arm, is in advanced dialogue for three launch services contracts.

“There are very serious discussions taking place for both dedicated launches and for the co-passenger missions. At least three I am aware of where people are seriously interested and discussions are taking place,” Radhakrishnan, also Secretary in the Department of Space and Chairman of Space Commission, told PTI here.

“They are expecting us to indicate whether we can do (the launches). So they want us to do it. When exactly they want it”, he said.

Radhakrishnan also said the Bangalore-headquartered ISRO would establish a research and development complex in Karnataka’s Chitradurga district.

“There (in Chitradurga) we are having about 540 acres of land. We are developing it into a complex for taking up R&D for the future,” he said.

Noting that the proposed complex is going to be a “major asset”, Radhakrishnan said ISRO is looking at the next few decades with this initiative. “The new generation has to look at what all they have to do.’’

He termed NASA’s Mars mission as a “fantastic achievement” and an “engineering marvel”.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2012 00:02

Like many wished, we need a robotic mission to source H3 from moon first. Kalam ji had already in his vision about H3 use from moon. Why is that kept quite?.. are they waiting for the chippanda club and unkill loot first and mark their areas?

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 15 Aug 2012 09:19

Cosmonaut Rakesh Sharma strums in guitar in outer space

https://picasaweb.google.com/1050956741 ... 4248352850

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 15 Aug 2012 17:40

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 775271.ece

PM formally announcing the mars mission on Independence day.

Vidyarthi · Post by **Vidyarthi** » 23 Aug 2012 13:07

I wish to draw attention to the recent publication of a book entitled "A Brief History of Rocketry in ISRO" authored by PV Manoranjan Rao and P. Radhakrishnan and published by University Press (INDIA) P. Ltd.2012, Hyderabad; ISBN 978 81 7371 763 5 Hb

This is a good adjunct to the earlier book entitled "Growing Rocket Systems and the Team", authored by S. C. Gupta, which describes step by step evolution of rockets in ISRO.

Vidyarthi · Post by **Vidyarthi** » 23 Aug 2012 13:24

Let me draw attewntion to another book entitled "Touching Lives - The Lttle Known Triumphs of the Indian Space Programme", authored by S. K. Das, Penguin Books 2007; ISBN 10: 0-14310-216-8.

This book introduces the other side of the Indian Space program and shows that ISRO is not just Rockets, Satellites or space probes. It tells about little noticed space technology enabled services like, Tele-education, Tele-medicine and others. The book is the account of people who have forged a different destiny for themselves, breaking the cycle of poverty and helpnesss.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Aug 2012 09:08

GSLV mission with indigenous cryogenic engine early next year

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 24 Aug 2012 15:43

Is there any information on the current status of semi-cryogenic engine development by Isro.
I beleive the program was started in 2008 with the plan to have the engine within 6 years (4 years over

).
TIA

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 26 Aug 2012 10:28

I have a few questions about indian manned space program

1) is the 2016 target on track ?

2) which of the following launchers will be used GSLV 2 or GSLV 3

3) has the construction of the 3rd launch pad started?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Aug 2012 08:09

Vidyarthi wrote:I wish to draw attention to the recent publication of a book entitled "A Brief History of Rocketry in ISRO" authored by PV Manoranjan Rao and P. Radhakrishnan and published by University Press (INDIA) P. Ltd.2012, Hyderabad; ISBN 978 81 7371 763 5 Hb

A review of the above book by N. Gopal Raj, who himself had earlier authored a similar book.

The tale they tell is not new. Even so, the richness of detail and the anecdotes that have been incorporated make their book interesting. Such information is particularly useful in respect of events in the early years of the programme that are often poorly documented.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 28 Aug 2012 11:04

abhishek-nayak wrote:I have a few questions about indian manned space program

1) is the 2016 target on track ?

2) which of the following launchers will be used GSLV 2 or GSLV 3

3) has the construction of the 3rd launch pad started?

I think, you are a young guy with less experience of our country.

My answers:
1)Definitely, never on track. Now the revised expectation is for 2020. The actual year may go to 2022.
2)GSLV 2
3)Not yet started. Even after starting, will be completed only by 2017 or later and will miss a few dedlines before complete readiness.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 28 Aug 2012 13:24

does anyone here have info on this project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28spacecraft%29

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Aug 2012 09:30

tushar_m wrote:does anyone here have info on this project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28spacecraft%29

Google search for ATV-D01. ISRO was planning to launch ATV-D02 in 2010 year end. However it is 2 years hence and still no news on ATV-D02., that is when they were suppossed to demonstrate a workable scramjet engine. If they would have done it (it is not easy)., ISRO (and India) would have been one of the first to demonstrate such capability. DARPA's HTV-2 failed and recently USAF's X-51 failed. The first test flight of X-51A was successful (and only one so far) with subsequent failures. So yes, this programmes are risky, but ISRO should continue this despite the failures.

For ISRO, mastering scramjet technology is imperative., and necessary for its TSTO. I have a feeling that ISRO is being curtailled to go back and do minimal things and not think big. When Shri. Madhavan Nair was at helm, ISRO was taking bold initiative.