Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Khalsa » 16 Aug 2012 16:00

Well Well .... this commodore came out to fight it out unlike his Naval counterpart in Karachi whose fate got sealed due to the spectacular success of terrorists in taking the number of Orions.
Either way this reminds me of the times when these loonies started to gather the courage to finger our Brigade and Div Headquarters and mount similar if not successful attacks.
i.e mock uniforms etc.

Its all coming back to bit them in the ass now isn't it ...... Yes you idiots you taught them assault tactics .... they are running it on you.

Time for Pakistan as a nation to resign and give up

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Aug 2012 16:02

am intrigued as to how all the recon assets are being hit by the bunnies, just pure luck?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Aug 2012 16:12

ANy confirmation that the SAAB aircraft has joined the PC-3 fates. but only thing Pakis still have 8 orions and 5 saabs, so these losses are not much.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Aug 2012 17:00

no, the losses are significant. the orions were the new variant, and 20% of the saab fleet gone leaves a gap as far as preparedness goes... its all good

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SKrishna » 16 Aug 2012 17:31

Shiv Aroor tweets that the aircraft damaged is in fact an IL -78 Midas refueler.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2012 23:36

Yes the IL-78 refuller was slightly damaged in this attack other then that no damage , seems they were expecting attacks on PAF bases and were well prepared for this.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 17 Aug 2012 09:16

Austin wrote:Yes the IL-78 refuller was slightly damaged in this attack other then that no damage , seems they were expecting attacks on PAF bases and were well prepared for this.


I do not buy this description of events. The attackers had the ability to shoot from outside. And they had surprise on their side. And there was no lack of weapons. Yet, you can see no damage on the refueler. What was the huge cloud of smoke then? Why are they not trotting their saved crown jewels to the press? Why the expectation of such gross incompetence on part of the more pious after the previous grand successes?

There is more to the story both in terms of people, and equipment.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arnab » 17 Aug 2012 09:33

Austin wrote:Yes the IL-78 refuller was slightly damaged in this attack other then that no damage , seems they were expecting attacks on PAF bases and were well prepared for this.


No - one of the awacs has been damaged. The way they keep changing their story makes me think that the losses are significant and the pakis are trying to save H&D.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... repairable

ISLAMABAD: A nozzle of an Airborne Warning and Control System (Awacs) aircraft was damaged as a rocket-propelled grenade hit it when terrorists stormed Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Airbase Minhas in Kamra on Thursday. However, the aircraft is repairable, Minister for Defence Syed Naveed Qamar said.

“The engineers and technicians of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex have examined the partially damaged aircraft, and according to the initial report, this most advanced Awacs aircraft of the Saab-2000 category can be repaired,” said the defence minister while talking to The News at an Iftar-dinner hosted by the Iranian ambassador here on Thursday. “A test flight of the aircraft will be conducted after repairing it,” he added.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nash » 17 Aug 2012 13:58

For Indian POV, we should be more carefull and vigilant regarding security of our startegic installation because if these things happen in our country then we have much things to lose than pakistan, and pakistan will easily get rid of this situation, saying that they already facing this situation.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Avinandan » 17 Aug 2012 15:27

link : http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/pak-navy-gets-second-fast-attack-ship-built-with-chinese-help-255807

Karachi: The Pakistan Navy has launched its second fast-attack craft constructed in collaboration with China.
A spokesman for the Pakistan Navy said the fast-attack craft named 'PNS Dehshat' is the second ship of its kind and was constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KS&EW) in collaboration with China State Shipbuilding, Offshore International Company and Xingang Shipyard under a transfer of technology arrangement.
The first ship PNS Azmat was inducted in the PN Fleet in June 2012

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sum » 17 Aug 2012 16:28

^^ Only TSP can name its national symbols after folks who plundered, raped and maimed their own people ( Abdali, Ghori etc) and now name its own ship as a terrorist ( PNS Dehshat) :roll: :-?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishnan » 17 Aug 2012 22:04

perfect name

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ghatotkacha » 17 Aug 2012 22:55

Bishwa wrote:BBC reports a major attack on Kamra Air Force Base in Pakistan.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19278302

Similar report in Dawn

http://dawn.com/2012/08/16/militants-at ... -at-kamra/



I wondered what would have happened if the Terrorists would have manage to successfully take over the airbase and its nuke (using Base personal as human shield for against any storming attempt). I can imagine a 9/11 like scenario, only with real fighter plane rather than Commercial ones.

It looks like coming from a fictional novel.

More reasons, why world cannot afford to let Pakistan keep its nuclear weapons.

:) Pakistan should transfer all its nuclear weapon to nearest stable neighbor India or China for safe keeping.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vishvak » 17 Aug 2012 23:25

So paki navy personnel could be called Deheshat-gardi, deheshat-vardi or any such variant?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 17 Aug 2012 23:53

Looks like PN will soon transform into a coastal force with Token 6-8 frigates of Chinese origin for showing the flag/ceremonial purposes.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby keshavchandra » 18 Aug 2012 13:58

PAF Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C damaged during attack at Minhas repairable : MOD
A nozzle of an Airborne Warning and Control System (Awacs) aircraft was damaged as a rocket-propelled grenade hit it when terrorists stormed Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Airbase Minhas in Kamra on Thursday. However, the aircraft is repairable, Minister for Defence Syed Naveed Qamar said.

“The engineers and technicians of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex have examined the partially damaged aircraft, and according to the initial report, this most advanced Awacs aircraft of the Saab-2000 category can be repaired,” said the defence minister while talking to The News at an Iftar-dinner hosted by the Iranian ambassador here on Thursday. “A test flight of the aircraft will be conducted after repairing it,” he added.

According to sources, three to four dozen aircraft were present at the airbase when the terrorists launched the attack. Most of these
aircraft were brought to Kamra for overhauling and repair.

Now I'm sure, we don't need such a huge defense budget. :D

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby gkriish » 18 Aug 2012 22:41

Ghatotkacha wrote:
Bishwa wrote:BBC reports a major attack on Kamra Air Force Base in Pakistan.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19278302

Similar report in Dawn

http://dawn.com/2012/08/16/militants-at ... -at-kamra/



I wondered what would have happened if the Terrorists would have manage to successfully take over the airbase and its nuke (using Base personal as human shield for against any storming attempt). I can imagine a 9/11 like scenario, only with real fighter plane rather than Commercial ones.

It looks like coming from a fictional novel.

More reasons, why world cannot afford to let Pakistan keep its nuclear weapons.

:) Pakistan should transfer all its nuclear weapon to nearest stable neighbor India or China for safe keeping.



be careful of what you wish for.......... be thankful to pakis that they stopped it if they were successful in getting hold of paki nukes..... one of the following would have happened

1 They would have destroyed a American City
2 They would have destroyed a Indian City
3 WW3 would have started and erase pak from the map
4 The nuke would be dud and embarrass paki nuke scientist
5 Explode on the face of the terrorist when they try to remove the core from the nose of the missile...

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Mahendra » 18 Aug 2012 23:43

:rotfl: Bhaijaan

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rohitvats » 25 Aug 2012 03:34

For better understanding of the series that began on my blog about canal based defenses in Pakistan, I've written an article on the military balance and potential offensive scenario (for India) in South Punjab-Sindh region. I've used the Mid-2002 deployment of IA (during Parakram) in Rajasthan Sector as an indicator of potential strike options.

In context of Arjun deployment, we can see that there is a vast tract of area south of Sri Ganganagar which can accommodate Arjun tanks even if we take the 10M MLC-70 class bridge argument at face value.

Here is the link: http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/08/strategic-importance-south-punjab-and.html

Any and all criticisms and feedback are welcome.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rohitvats » 28 Aug 2012 01:29

Here is second round of analysis about Defense Canals in South Punjab and Sindh covering the RYK Area.

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/08/canal-based-defenses-in-south-punjab-ii.html

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rohitvats » 05 Sep 2012 23:32

In continuation of previous post on my blog (Indian Army-Canal Crossing Operations), Part-II covering the bridging equipment of the army. There are also couple of excellent videos of river crossing exercise by Russian Army.

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/09/indian-army-canal-crossing-operation-ii.html

The topic is something I've studied for the first time while putting together the above post. So, please, if anyone has more information or if any aspect of details covered by me is wrong/out-dated, please feel free to give your feedback here on BRF or in comments section. This way, we can build a single repository of information on the subject.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arijitkm » 06 Sep 2012 19:53

Pakistan Navy inducted another P-3C

Pakistan Navy (PN) on Wednesday inducted another P3C long-range maritime patrol aircraft in its aviation fleet, received from USA under Security Assistance Programme. Chief of Naval Staff Admiral M Asif Sandila was the chief guest at the ceremony, which was also attended by PN and US officials. According to a PN spokesperson the P3C aircraft, being a potent air platform, will assist in maintaining protracted vigil over sea to meet legitimate defence needs while safeguarding maritime interests of Pakistan.
.....

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 06 Sep 2012 19:57

^^^ "legitimate defense needs" == specifically anti-india offensive capabilities

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rajatmisra » 08 Sep 2012 19:13

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ "legitimate defense needs" == specifically anti-india offensive capabilities


True, but that has been the story for decades. Whole issue is, are we prepared enough?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vishvak » 08 Sep 2012 19:40

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ "legitimate defense needs" == specifically anti-india offensive capabilities

How is there are no protests from Indians? These are specifically anti-India offensive capabilities.

Too busy looking good to not consider national security?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kit » 08 Sep 2012 21:04

vishvak wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:^^^ "legitimate defense needs" == specifically anti-india offensive capabilities

How is there are no protests from Indians? These are specifically anti-India offensive capabilities.

Too busy looking good to not consider national security?


They are replacements for the ones destroyed by their local militants.Maybe RAW or IB can get some local chaps to do some dirty work or better why not outsource the dirty work, Afghanistan has a lot of chaps who work both sides.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2012 08:54

How did the replacement arrive within a few months and that too at a time when the US-Paki relationship was at its lowest ? And, if true, what does it prove ?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Khalsa » 09 Sep 2012 10:28

I doubt the replacement craft was a new one but I could be wrong. The US Navy would certainly have its fair share of attrition reserve like any normal squadron would.
They probably gifted one out of that. Also don't forget that US Navy will also have its own programme of consolidation and retirement of P3 assets once the P8 starts to roll off in greater numbers. And thats not too far off so getting hands on one of these should be a no biggie.

So as to furnishing them with an a/c with offensive capabilities that cannot be used on the Taliban Navy then one thing we must understand is this.

If ..... and I stress with the biggest IF over here, If the Pakistanis are providing any help to US such as
Fighting the Talibs inside
keeping the corridor open for supply convoys
intelligence sharing

then all of the above is all done after their Anti-India priorities are taken care of.
The Afghan scenario remains a second priority for them. Pakistan is a completely India Centric nation and thus the bulk of their best forces remain pointing at us.
And they should because our best remain ready pointing at them.

It just our good luck and their misfortune that the Talib suicide bombers don't differentiate between their anti Indian forces and anti Taliban forces :-)
The anti-Indian forces are also easier to target as they are mostly located in peacetime locations etc.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2012 11:09

Khalsa, I am sure the P3C came from American stock and it was not a new one. I know too that the Americans can easily send a replacement, if they wanted to. But, there was no tearing hurry for the Americans to rush in an a/c that had no direct impact on GWoT. And, when this happened, the Pakistanis had shut down the land routes, there was no intelligence sharing going on between the CIA& the ISI, there were frequent accusations by high-ranking Congressional members of punishing Pakistan for its duplicity, the Pakistani Doctor who assisted the CIA had been arrested, there was almost a face-off between Hillary & Hina, there was no high-level contact between the top US Commander and Gen. Kayani etc.

Did the Americans do it to send messages to both India & Pakistan ? To India, that the US will ensure the defence of Pakistan at any cost and to the Pakistanis that co-operation will ensure a largesse ? I believe that the former message is more powerful than the latter because the latter is well known.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Khalsa » 09 Sep 2012 14:19

SSridhar wrote:Did the Americans do it to send messages to both India & Pakistan ?
To India, that the US will ensure the defence of Pakistan at any cost .


Spot on SSridhar.
May I replace a word there if you don't mind my friend :-) to present my view point.

To India, that the US will ensure the stability of Pakistan at any cost.


If Pakistan was located where Somalia is.... and it had no nukes or whatever.
US would not have cared whether Pakistan imploded or exploded.
P3 is huge ..... I doubt they would have sold them a supermarket shopping trolley.

What Pakistan means today... is the reason US continue to work with them.
I mean for god's sake they found Bin Laden living outside the front door to PMA yet they work with them.
ha ha ha ha ha ha

In some ways one must relate to their view point. You gotta keep their ship afloat till the day you are able to de-fang them.
Even the Pakistanis know it well enough that US can't be trusted.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2012 16:44

wrt to the OBL raid, there was no way a small unit of road blocking ST6 armed with rifles, UBGLs and perhaps a few LAW weapons could stop or seriously delay a strong force from the kakul mil academy next door if they had chose to come out and play.
makes me think they had a few B1's orbiting onsite to deliver 100+ LGBs on that place should a local commander have shown too much initiative for his own good.
I do believe the top levels of the Paki Govt and ISI itself sold OBL to the highest bidder in exchange for other benefits and promises to go easy on them for a while in their other obsession, the anti-India crusade. all this story about a local doc selling info is likely just a cover.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Sep 2012 18:27

Singha to add to your point, leaving aside the psy-ops about Stealth Hawk etc. a CH-47 CHinook, few all the way to Paki Miltary Academy doorstep, picked up troops and flew back unmolested back to Afganistan. No way that avoided detection. Hell forget the PAF, even a few Anza And ZSU-23mm, or even small arms would have made the seal trip history

Pakis knew about giving up on OBL, but public ally admitting to the Aam Abdul that you gave Jihadi to Washington and entire of Lot of Jihadis under various umbrella organisations you will cooperate with Khan, Core Commanders in Pindi would have had a mutiny on their hands.

Looks Khan had made it clear to the Pakis that they had to give up on OBL.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 10 Sep 2012 21:55

PNS Alamgir (260) ex-USS McInerney (FFG 8)

http://i.imgur.com/yOXh8.jpg

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 11 Sep 2012 01:31

It doesn't seem to have any weapons. What does it carry for missiles.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 11 Sep 2012 06:09

Looks like it being taken away for weapons fit.

If you look closely you can find main gun dismantled and at the top of ship.

Well that's all you get for free :D

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2012 07:33

the ST6 team probably staged with GoP approval from a nice protected area like the SSG base near tarbela dam, and that is where the replacement chinook also flew in from there. as crow flies its only 50km from abbotabad...half across the reservoir and other half across a desolate area providing no early warning.
on the exit leg they would have flown directly back to afghanistan with the PAF conveniently looking the other way and scrambling fighters towards the *indian* border.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby K_Rohit » 11 Sep 2012 12:19

Sid wrote:Looks like it being taken away for weapons fit.

If you look closely you can find main gun dismantled and at the top of ship.

Well that's all you get for free :D


That is the actual position of the main gun!!

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 11 Sep 2012 13:57

built 1976 : it has room for 2 helicopter , 1 phalanx, 4 LWT TT, 1 gun, upto 8 harpoon ASM tubes and no SAM because in 2004 all such system was removed from this class.

its radar and sensor suite is very austere.

its a ship thats 36 yrs old now.....pretty much any modern ship will outperform it by a big margin.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Sep 2012 14:12

What I want it to Have is poor Manvouring Capabilities, a very poor FCR which is easily Jammable and warns High Probability of Intercept, High radar signature, High Sonar Signature and High amount flammbale material which blows up easily and toxic materials which rountinly cause crew causualties.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 11 Sep 2012 20:40

PNS Alamgir and the follow on transfers of this class will be constrained to primarily an anti submarine role. It's main shortcoming is in self defence against AShMs. Also, there are no helicopters being transferred ... which means it will base Z-9 helicopters ... not the most capable platform with short on-station time.

A useful addition to PN none the less; if I am correct their total fleet size will actually increase above current levels.\

PS: where exactly are the Harpoon tubes located?


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