Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Singha wrote:when its time to kick ass, there is a point beyond which small/cheap/chankian does not pay, only big will do, very big and brawny.
this is what happens when you lock a bunch of A-quality engineers in a room, with a unlimited scope to think up a solution.

Burya...a 97 ton, mach3, 6000km range cruise missile with a 3t H-bomb payload...in the 1960s
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/burya.htm

I would give a years wages to be allowed to go back in time and work with such revered seers of the craft, maybe shoot off a few test rounds....and just hang around in those days...must have been a awesome engg driven env back in those days when ppt were not invented and MBAs and stock price didnt rule the workplace.

no wonder quantum leaps in engg and science were made in the 50s and 60s....

8)
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

we need people who want to go to the lab at night not to download torrents faster but try experiments often hiding behind a wall after 'lighting the fuse' to safeguard themselves lest anything blow up.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by ramana »

Singha wrote:we need people who want to go to the lab at night not to download torrents faster but try experiments often hiding behind a wall after 'lighting the fuse' to safeguard themselves lest anything blow up.
What to do they are now in pawerful positions at center and want to clamp down on Internet now that they are grey beards.
member_23360
BRFite
Posts: 152
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_23360 »

Singha: preventing the user from launching the missile without a proper lock may not be ideal either. Sometimes, the user may want to do exactly that, if he is in a shoot and scoot mode. It will make sense to provide other cues like an audio-beep when the lock is achieved + training. Such issues during user trials are normal in any product development. The IA itself has said that it will use the initial order of 443 NAGs for familiarization. Our DDM, as usual, blows up the issue and it finds an echo chamber in Shiv Aroor's cranial cavity
Shiv aroor's twitter handle is now blocked by GOI, poor guy :rotfl:
Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Katare »

What do you mean? What did he do to deserve that?
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5873
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SBajwa »

MBAs and stock price didnt rule the workplace.
Never hire an MBA if you want your business to grow!! IMHO MBAs are the sole reason for decline in various sector (aerospace and general engineering)
pentaiah
BRFite
Posts: 1671
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by pentaiah »

Power point is most potent snake oil even invented
MS Project is the Mrs Dash Seasoning spice that goes with it.

MBA
Most Bekar Aadmi
member_20067
BRFite
Posts: 626
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by member_20067 »

pentaiah wrote:Power point is most potent snake oil even invented
MS Project is the Mrs Dash Seasoning spice that goes with it.

MBA
Most Bekar Aadmi
as if Americans did not have any MBAs before or will have after...... it is a lame excuse really and easy target to put the blame onto. With or without MBA or powerpoint --- lack of oversight and ownership for failure and lack of subsequent actions is more to blame
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

http://younews.in/news/india-tests-prit ... lly-again/
The surface-to-surface Prithvi II ballistic missile was successfully launched at 11.03 a.m.on Saturday from the integrated test range at Chandipur off Odisha coast.

The strategic forces command of the army, entrusted with the nuclear weapons delivery systems, launched the missile.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) officials said the missile had an "excellent flight" and it travelled over its entire range of 350 km.
A ship of the Indian navy was placed near the final pint of impact of missile. Missile's total flight duration was 483 seconds and maximum altitude was 43.5 km.
rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by rajanb »

Agni II test in first week of September.
vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1657
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

^^^
that would be A-3 I believe, instead of back to back tests as originally stated they are doing test-review-test keeping in mind the impact on user confidence

and Prithvi launch is a non-event now :-), no comments at all

Is the 43km altitude similar to what Shaurya is capable of? to stay below long range radars

btw, I always liked the Orca style camouflage of this missile
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

IMHO prithvi is so slow going only 24 hours a day.. :wink:
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3254
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Brahmos missiles to get airlift, to be mounted on Sukhoi-30MKI
NEW DELHI: The government is set to approve an over Rs 6,500 crore programme to mount supersonic cruise missile Brahmos on Sukhoi-30MKI fighters of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The air-launched missile system would significantly add to the conventional offensive capabilities of Indian military might, while intensifying arms race in the region.

The project seeks to mount the missile on 42 Sukhoi fighters, and includes 216 air-version missiles.

Sources said the cabinet committee on security (CCS) would soon be considering for approval the project to mount air version of Brahmos, a supersonic cruise missile jointly developed by India and Russia, on IAF's most advanced fighter.

The proposal is being moved in the wake of feasibility studies proving that the air-launched version of the cruise missile can successfully be mounted on the Russian made fighter, and can be fired to lethal effect. The government proposes to develop two prototypes of Sukhoi-30MKI fighters fitted with the missile for field trials in the project's first phase.

Once the two prototypes complete a series of field trials, another 40 of the Sukhoi-30MKI fighters would be fitted with the missile in India, a senior official said.

Some modifications to the fuselage of the fighter are required to accommodate the nine-meter-long missile, sources said. Brahmos Aerospace is believed to have developed an air version of the missile, which is lighter than the other variants and has additional rear fins for aerodynamic stability.

Sources said the entire project would be executed in India by Brahmos Aerospace and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), with Russia providing design and technical consultancy. Brahmos Aerospace is a joint venture between India's DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia.

The two-stage missile, with a solid propellant booster engine in the first phase and a liquid ramjet in the second stage, is among the world's fastest missiles, and its developers claim it to be the only supersonic cruise missile in the world. With a deadly accuracy and no effective counter to it, Brahmos is a potent force for Indian armed forces.

Brahmos already has land and naval versions, which are successfully commissioned by the Army and the Navy. A submarine version of the missile is under development. Brahmos Aerospace CEO A Sivathanu Pillai has spoken about the efforts to develop a hypersonic version of the missile.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I am trying to understand the A2G radar range of our MKI married for guiding Brahmos-Air version. I am sure, we have thought and spent our money usefully in upgrading the radar to support this porting, but so far, I have not come across such a news yet.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Can't find the correct thread for this:

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

http://www.wouldisurviveanuke.com/


lets you see what the devastation would be, of multiple nuclear bombs all around the world
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2489
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by uddu »

There is a 200 km hypersonic air launched missile which is 4m in length, the first prototype of which to be ready by 2012. Also the test of Nirbhay is supposed to take place in 2012. Waiting for these two to happen.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Isn't supersonic Brahmos 9m in length ? Interesting that the reduction of more than half of length resulted in almost one-third cut in range. Are you sure about it being hypersonic ? AFAIK, that missile is still under development
Prithvi has the same length too, but higher diameter with almost same range
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by vic »

Brahmas even at 2.5 tons is too heavy. We need KH-31 series type missile with sub- one ton weight
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

yes we dont need more of the same in the brahmos2, but something like the MBDA perseus.
probably they leveraged the gains from the Meteor AAM R&D program into this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_(Missile)

Weight 800kg
Length 5m
Warhead A 200kg main warhead with an additional 2 x 40-50kg inertially guided effectors from lateral bays.

MBDA describes the missile as a "Unique multi-role, multi-Platform weapon system" to be integrated on all major weapon platforms such as; warships, submarines, aircraft and land-based platforms.[6]

The stealthy Perseus missile has a range of 300km reaching speeds of Mach 3. It is powered by a revolutionary ramjet motor, built around a highly compact Continuous Detonation Wave Engine (CDWE). The missile is 5 metres in length and weighs around 800kg, with a 200kg "main" warhead. In addition to the main warhead, Perseus is equipped with 2x 40-50kg inertially guided effectors from lateral bays which can be released before the missile hits its target. This unique feature allows Perseus to strike either a multitude of targets in the same area, or to strike a singular large target - such as a major warship - in several different areas at once for maximum destruction. "In this case, a linear attack pattern could be selected, munitions striking the forward, centre and aft sections simultaneously. If a unitary blast is required, then the effectors remain on board the parent missile to add their blast effect to the central warhead."[1]

Two types of attack profiles are envisaged: A high-altitude approach, for engaging land based targets and a Sea-skimming low-altitude approach followed by a pop-up maneuver for engaging surface threats like enemy warships.[1] The missiles "skimming the sea at wave top" followed by a pop-up maneuver would only allow an estimated 3 second response time for enemy warships.[3]

The missiles sensor suite includes;

A multi-mode active e-scan radar with synthetic aperture and Doppler beam sharpening.
A laser radar (ladar) for terminal phase imaging and target recognition.
The missile also features a "semi-active laser guidance capability." MBDA believes that this guidance method will remain important for time-sensitive targeting for many years to come. Satellite datalink is to be incorporated for "in-flight re-targeting, using thin-profile, low-observable active antenna arrays."[1]

The missile will be VLS launched and is compatible with the American Mark 41 Vertical Launching System and the French A70 Sylver Vertical Launching System.[6] The missile may eventually equip the Royal Navys future Global Combat Ship.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Yup, just one missile one an expensive multi-role fighter plane like Sukhoi 30 MKI seems such a waste. That plane can hardly defend itself or even fly to it's full capability while carrying single Brahmos. We need to have some dedicated bombers like Blackjack or Backfire as platform for multiple air-launched Brahmos. Leave out Su-30s for other duties which they can do better. I doubt that US will allow us to integrate any non-US missile on Poseidons, so Russi bombers are the only option. They're also much faster
Overall, I think that we're depending too much on short range missile which can't even carry nukes. Nirbhay needs to be inducted ASAP
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

SaiK wrote:I am trying to understand the A2G radar range of our MKI married for guiding Brahmos-Air version. I am sure, we have thought and spent our money usefully in upgrading the radar to support this porting, but so far, I have not come across such a news yet.
Quite a few of exact capabilities of the MKI is not public., even so for the new upcoming version being newly sourced.IAF is understandably coy of the capabilities of its prima donna
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

The bears will probably carry 2-3 of the air launched brahmos
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Backfire's can carry 24 ton. If we develop an internal launcher, then it can launch 8-10 Brahmos. Even a single such Backfire will make Panda as well as Unkil think twice before doing something stupid
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by kit »

India has Tu 22 M backfires ? maritime version of Bear has appxly 10 ton payload for weapons and sensors.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

kit wrote:
SaiK wrote:I am trying to understand the A2G radar range of our MKI married for guiding Brahmos-Air version. I am sure, we have thought and spent our money usefully in upgrading the radar to support this porting, but so far, I have not come across such a news yet.
Quite a few of exact capabilities of the MKI is not public., even so for the new upcoming version being newly sourced.IAF is understandably coy of the capabilities of its prima donna
Interesting answer, also one has to think about this too:
Singha wrote: The missiles sensor suite includes;

A multi-mode active e-scan radar with synthetic aperture and Doppler beam sharpening.
A laser radar (ladar) for terminal phase imaging and target recognition.
The missile also features a "semi-active laser guidance capability." MBDA believes that this guidance method will remain important for time-sensitive targeting for many years to come. Satellite datalink is to be incorporated for "in-flight re-targeting, using thin-profile, low-observable active antenna arrays."[1]
.
so, I get to see the marriage now more clearer. :).

but, you right.. the scanning and tracking is more important.. and this is where MKI hidden capabilities lies.
Last edited by SaiK on 26 Aug 2012 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by krishnan »

The Tupolev company has sought export customers for the Tu-22M since 1992, with possible customers including Iran, India and the People's Republic of China, but no sales have apparently been made. Four were leased to India during 2001 for maritime reconnaissance and strike purposes.[9]
wiki
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

krishnan wrote:
The Tupolev company has sought export customers for the Tu-22M since 1992, with possible customers including Iran, India and the People's Republic of China, but no sales have apparently been made. Four were leased to India during 2001 for maritime reconnaissance and strike purposes.[9]
wiki
That line was inserted into the wiki article with no citation if it makes you feel any better you can go and change that number to 40.
kit wrote:The bears will probably carry 2-3 of the air launched brahmos
There are currently no plans to integrate Brahmos for any airborne platform other than Su-30. Unless Russia jumps on board i doubt IN would fund any integration plans for the handful of Bears we have.
Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2449
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

kit wrote:India has Tu 22 M backfires ? maritime version of Bear has appxly 10 ton payload for weapons and sensors.
No it does not. Russkies have plenty in storage and the thought of acquiring some of those spares no jingo in BR from time to time. :twisted:

Maybe we can name Backfire Silk Smitha.
nakul
BRFite
Posts: 1251
Joined: 31 Aug 2011 10:39

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nakul »

Intercontinental / long range bombers are utterly useless while flying over protected airspace. They are useful only for situations over water or sanitized airspace. Since India is unlikely to fight wars with any meaningful opponents over water, the big birds are a bit overkill for IAF / IN. It would be more handy if Pakistan would be in the Arabian peninsula where we would have to fly long distances over water. Ditto for China. For small time players, a carrier delivers plenty of firepower and a little more...
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

A Su-30MKi costs $ 30 Million and can carry only one Brahmos, that too with many structural changes which will further jack up the prices.

A single Backfire or Bear can carry up to 8 times that number. Isn't it more cost-effective when per-unit cost is considered ? Can't find anything confirming price of these 2 bombers, but it shouldn't be more than $ 40-50 million for Bear.

From Bharat Rakshak:
Defense News reported in March 2004 that the Indian Navy had requested new avionics and electronic warfare suites for the Tu-142, for the detection and interception of surface vessels and submarines within a range of 150 kilometres, as well as the capability to detect mines and carry out long-range and long-endurance surveillance. The upgrade is also expected to enable the aircraft to be linked to the Indian satellite navigation system and be fitted with an observation system that will work in night and day. The primary ambition of the upgrade is to conduct maritime patrol missions and forge a linkage between India's nuclear command center and its futuristic nuclear submarine. The upgrade will further enable the aircraft to carry air-launched versions of the Klub and BrahMos ASCMs.
nakul
BRFite
Posts: 1251
Joined: 31 Aug 2011 10:39

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nakul »

During other situations, the Su 30 MKI could also be used for AA & AG munitions unlike the bombers which specialize in only 1 role. Therefore, it would be unfair to compare the price of the Su 30 MKIs, 272 of which are going to be procured to a single aircraft which will need its own supporting infrastructure.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5030
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Surya »

sure like the Gorshkov was a few hundred million :)

not to mention the the expenses of operating something for which spares etc are probably zilch

its a total white elephant with little flexibility - a straight line zoomer
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by jamwal »

The point is that Sukhoi with Brahmos can't do anything else, not even defend itself. These Sukhois if not carrying Brahmos can be used as escorts for heavy bombers as well as can fire lighter AShMs if needed. We're essentially wasting almost 2 squadrons worth of a good mulit-role fighter for some work better performed by a dedicated bomber.
IN is already operating Bears, so spares and supporting infrastructure shouldn't be such a big issue compared to Backfires. IN will need similar infrastructure for these Sukhois too anyway,
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14744
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Jamwal, An airlaunched Bramhos will be 2-2.5 tons, well within Su-30 Maximum bomb load, it can carry 6-8 AAM, and can be escorted by other Sukhoi with pure A to A load for protection. Also with Brahmos, I dont think the Sukhoi is anyway going to have some standoff range to release it well before its target.
nakul
BRFite
Posts: 1251
Joined: 31 Aug 2011 10:39

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nakul »

*chankiyan hat on*

The evil yindoos can release the Brahmos (or the Tsangmos) much closer to their target when released from the Flankers. The Backfires with their large RCS will be picked up very early by the gleat Chinese early walning radars. The Flankers with their puny size in comparison to the Backfire will provide lower time to attack as detection will happen closer to the target. Even if one or two MKIs are shot down (by made in China SAMs), it won't be a mission kill. The Brahmos will be well distributed among various planes in contrast to the dedicated bomber which will be the sole carrier. All in all, very chanakiyan onlee.

*chankiyan hat off*
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36427
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by SaiK »

chankian deep strike missions are done by terrain hugging low altitude flight mode., with an awacs and refueller support. also, it helps to port A2G and A2As on the mother crafts as well.

the reason raptor and its missiles were designed to keep this mind, kill your enemy before he detects you.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1439
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by mody »

What kind of super duper ramjet tech do the europeans have that can make their missiles so much smaller and lighter for the same performance characteristics.

The specs of the MBDA perseus are very similar to the French Nuclear cruise missile ASMPA.

The specs are very similar to Brahmos, but the weight is only 1/3rd and the length is roughly half.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66589
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by Singha »

I forget the name of it, but France had a top-secret ramjet type propulsion project going since the mid 90s. it was a nationally funded tier1 project and like the raptor no collabs were sought to safeguard its secrets. perhaps the technology from that has matured.

a french invented ramjets btw in 1913, and they have the redoubtable nord griffon below the belt...so they aint pushovers in this field.

would be fair to say they are world class in every type of engine - turboshafts, turboprops, turbofans, ramjets, marine engines, gas turbines, nuclear reactors, space engines, heavy launchers.....

for those who can understand the math a MBDA guy has a public paper on their experimental work http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFull ... 150-08.pdf
nakul
BRFite
Posts: 1251
Joined: 31 Aug 2011 10:39

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by nakul »

SaiK wrote:chankian deep strike missions are done by terrain hugging low altitude flight mode., with an awacs and refueller support. also, it helps to port A2G and A2As on the mother crafts as well.
how will awacs / refueller enter enemy territory without getting shot down? If they stay inside the borders, there role will be limited in deep strike missions. am I missing something?
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Post by John »

mody wrote: The specs are very similar to Brahmos, but the weight is only 1/3rd and the length is roughly half.
Perseus won't see daylight till 2030 and i am skeptical on that project. As for ASMP its payload relatively small compared to Brahmos (which has pretty large seeker and inboard electronics). Also have to keep in mind Brahmos/Oniks is actually using a modified variant of Moskit ramjet engine since the original engine proposed for the missile was abandoned due to funding constraints.
Post Reply