Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2012

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by BijuShet »

From The Nation (posted in full)
Pak-India joint economic zones to play vital role
By: APP | August 27, 2012

LAHORE – Joint Economic Zones (JEZs) at the Pak-India borders will promote trade and flow of economic activity between the two states.

The zones would also be a gurantee of peace in the region and emerge as a binding factor between the two nations, said Pak-India Business Council (PIBC) chairman Noor Muhammad Kasuri talking to APP here on Sunday. He said there was a possibilty of investment of about 40-50 billion $ by the Indo-Pak people living Europe and other countries.

“The PIBC is fully appreciative of the Agri support fund launched by US-AID for poverty alleviation”, he said and urged the United States to play a role for setting up JEZs and also provide $1 billion support for setting up infrastructure for these zones.The PIBC would send a formal proposal to US representatives for the region soon, he said.

Kasuri said these zones would play a key role in poverty alleviation and socio-economic uplift of people in both the countries. The PIBC cahirman said almost trade and industry representative bodies appreciated JEZs between India and Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by ramana »

Biju, For a second I thought Putin was going to restroom.

Seriously that means TSP is falling out of kahn's reach.
No wonder BD is getting their attention.
The entire zone round India is being re-aligned.
I think the BD gambit is to stop India's Look East policy.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by BijuShet »

ramana wrote:Biju, For a second I thought Putin was going to restroom.

Seriously that means TSP is falling out of kahn's reach.
No wonder BD is getting their attention.
The entire zone round India is being re-aligned.
I think the BD gambit is to stop India's Look East policy.
:rotfl:
The takeaway from that article for me was the meetings between heads of state of Russia, Afghanistan and Tajikistan in TSP in Oct 2012. It must have some connection to US withdrawal from Afg. No matter what they discuss, India will see an impact of the decisions taken in those meetings so we need ears in that meeting.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by saip »

Unmanned aircraft crashes near Chakwal
Relief and rescue teams have rushed to the site of the incident.
Link

Who would they be rescuing? Jinns?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by pentaiah »

Ramana ji
There are lot of spy vs spy kind of maneuvering going on between Ivan and the khan

First the meddling in East Europe of ABM shield NATO expansion
India courting khan ( and MMS with his irrational exuberance )
Khan meddling in CAR
Khan in Georgia
Khan in Syria

So Putin has to move towards TSP and you will see more co operation with Iran once Syria falls to staged revolution.

Russia to an extent is fractional power of what it used to be any way
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Altair »

Pakistan is satirically named as Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TIRP)
WTF!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by BijuShet »

From The News (An opinion piece posted in full)
Economy in 2012-13
Dr Ashfaque H Khan - Tuesday, August 28, 2012
From Print Edition

As in the fiscal year 2007-08, the current year (2012-13) is also likely to see three governments in Pakistan – the incumbent, the caretaker and a new government after the election. Like 2007-08, the current year is bound to see policy inaction and populist measures taken by the government to ‘win’ the forthcoming elections. As 2007-08 was the harbinger of pain and misery for the people of Pakistan, the year 2012-13 looks set to bring more economic devastation due to a variety of reasons.

Firstly, Pakistan’s economy was in relatively healthier condition prior to 2007-08. Secondly, macroeconomic management was relatively sound and the economy was at the top of the agenda of the then government. Thirdly, Pakistan’s relations with the IFIs, including the IMF, was fairly cordial. Fourthly, the external economic environment prior to 2007-08 was hospitable. Even with such relatively sound economic conditions, the events of 2007-08 damaged the economy significantly.

Pakistan has already entered in the second month of the fiscal year 2012-13. Economic conditions have never been in such a worse shape as they are now, as a result of five years of mismanagement. The external economic environment is inhospitable and likely to worsen in the coming months. Pakistan’s relation with the IFIs, including the IMF, has deteriorated. Against the backdrop of worsening economic conditions, the economic management of 2012-13 is likely to cause irreparable damage to the economy.

The current fiscal year is an election year. The government has already presented a ‘ballot’ budget and the SBP has recently announced a ‘ballot’ monetary policy. These are deadly combinations for the economy. The external balance of payments is also likely to come under pressure owing to heavy debt repayments, financing of large current account deficit and declining debt and non-debt creating inflows. The victim will naturally be the exchange rate with a range of adverse consequences for the economy.

What is there in store for the economy in 2012-13? Before we answer this, it is essential that we summarise the state of the economy as it stands at the beginning of 2012-13. Lack of vision, direction, commitment, knowledge and understanding of Pakistan’s economy has destroyed the economy during the last four and a half years. By the end of the last fiscal year (2011-12), Pakistan’s economic growth slowed to an average of 3 percent per annum, equalling less than one-half of the average of 2002-07. Domestic investment hit a 60 years low and domestic saving experienced an unprecedented fall. Side by side, foreign private investment collapsed and inflation hovered in high double-digits with a corresponding deterioration in the business environment, unemployment and poverty figures and relations with the IFIs.

The root cause of our economic destruction has been the policy of ‘reckless borrowing and ruthless spending’ pursued by the government. The country has never witnessed such a level of fiscal profligacy with budget deficit touching 8.5 percent of the GDP in 2011-12. Resultantly, public debt has more than doubled in the last five years and consumed a bulk of tax revenue as interest payments. Non-availability of sufficient resources for social sector and infrastructure has resulted in the deterioration of education and health systems, crumbling of the infrastructure and worsening of the power crisis.

In short, by the end of 2011-12, Pakistan’s economy resembled a patient in intensive care unit fighting desperately for survival. To extend the analogy, the economic ‘doctors’ are least bothered about their ‘patient’. Should we expect any change in their attitude towards their patient (economy) at the tail end of their shift? Through the ‘ballot’ budget and ‘ballot’ monetary policy, the government has already revealed its preferences. Fiscal indiscipline is likely to attain new heights in 2012-13. Resources will be doled out to ‘win’ election in the name of ‘taraqiati programme’ (development budget).

No efforts will be made to mobilise additional resources by broadening the tax base and rationalising expenditure. No attempts will be made to address the issues of the NFC Award which has rendered the fiscal policy ineffective as a tool of the stabilisation policy. The ‘ballot’ budget 2012-13 failed to touch upon several key issues including agricultural income being drawn under the direct tax net, implementation of RGST, reforming of the petroleum sector taxation, bleeding PSEs, circular debt and strengthening of tax administration.

The SBP has also revealed their preferences by presenting a ‘ballot’ monetary policy recently. They made the life of the government much easier by reducing the financing cost of the budget deficit. We have learnt as students of economics that budget-deficit represents the excessive demand in the economy, which will translate in higher imports thus worsening the current account balance. A budget deficit of 8.5 percent of the GDP in 2011-12 clearly reflects the prevalence of excessive demand in the economy. Can any central bank around the world reduce discount rate by 150bps in the midst of excessive demand?

Where is the hard earned autonomy of the SBP? Why has the SBP chosen to become subservient to the fiscal authority (ministry of finance)? The SBP must accept that they have simply implemented the politically motivated decision of the ministry of finance to please businessmen. Should we expect the private sector to increase investment as a result of decline in the discount rate in the absence of power and gas and deteriorating security environment? Or should we expect more activity in the stock market with no real impact on the economy or encouragement of hoarding and speculation?

It is safe to admit that in the presence of the ‘ballot’ budget and ‘ballot’ monetary policy, the economic condition is likely to worsen in 2012-13. The cost, as always, will be borne not by those at the helm of the country’s affairs but by the already economically crippled common man whose hopes for a better future lie all but shattered.

The writer is principal and dean of NUST Business School, Islamabad. Email: ahkhan@nbs.edu.pk
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by johneeG »

ramana wrote:SSridhar, If its ok with JohneeG, I suggest that post be blogged as guest post on pakwatch.

Thanks,

ramana

Pak watch jedi
That would be my pleasure, Ramana garu. Thanks. :D
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by BijuShet »

From The News (news item posted in full)
Accused girl declared underage & of low mental level
Shakeel Anjum - Tuesday, August 28, 2012
From Print Edition - Islamabad

The medical board, constituted on the order of the special magistrate, Islamabad, to determine the age of the Christian girl, Rimsha, who was allegedly involved in a blasphemy case, has declared her underage in a report submitted to the concerned authorities. Her age was assessed under 14 and mental level not at par with her age, well-placed sources told ‘The News’.

According to legal experts, the FIR against the girl, with a mental level of an eleven-year old, should be quashed immediately. The travesty of justice in Rimsha’s case could be gauged from the fact that the law of the land was ignored at every stage, they opined.

According to the Rule 10 (3) of the Juvenile Justice Rules, the minor girl could not, in any circumstances, be detained in police lock-up or sent to jail.

The Section 82 of the Pakistan Penal Code (PPC) defines the act of a child less than seven years of age, saying, “Nothing is an offence, which is done by a child under seven years of age.” While Section 83 of the PPC elaborates the act of a child above seven and under twelve of immature understanding, saying, “Nothing is an offence which is done by a child above seven years of age and under twelve, who has not attained sufficient maturity of understanding to judge the nature and consequences of his conduct on that occasion.”

The legal experts, giving references of the law, averred that police and courts, violating the law, kept the girl in illegal detention, adding that she was in prison for the last nine days but the court remained silent.

The Islamabad Juvenile Rules 2001, SRO-867 (i/2001), clearly say about the establishment of Borstal Institution in the Islamabad Capital Territory (ICT). The Rule 4 (1) says, “The government shall establish and maintain at least one Borstal Institution in the ICT to keep and accommodate juveniles therein.”

The Rule 10 of the JJR says, “Female juveniles shall be detained in a separate enclosure of the Borstal Institution exclusively for the purpose.”The Rule 10 (2) says, “In case, there is no such enclosure as mentioned in Section 1 of JJR, they shall immediately be transferred to the care-home by the court.”

And the Rule 10 (3) says, “Female juveniles shall, in no case, be kept in police lock-up or prison.” The Section 7 of the Juvenile Justice System Ordinance 2000 determines the age of the accused, saying, “If a question arises as whether a person before it, is a child, for the purpose of this Ordinance, the Juvenile Court shall record a finding after such inquiry which shall include a medical report for determination of the age of the child.”

The legal experts said if the court conducts inquiry for the determination of the age, the medical report is must for the determination of the age.The Section 2(B) of the Ordinance says, “The child means, a person who, at the time of commission of the offence, has not attained the age of 18 years.”

While Section 9 of the Ordinance clearly says, “A probation officer shall assist the court by making a report on the child’s character, education, social and moral background.”

Chaudhary Tahir Naveed, counsel of Rimsha, lodged an application on Thursday (August 23) with the Additional District Magistrate, Farasat Ali Khan, requesting him to constitute a medical board to ascertain the age of the accused girl.

The additional district magistrate, taking action on the application, sought comments from the SSP, Islamabad. The SSP, Islamabad, in his observations, recommended that a medical board should determine the age of the girl with the suggestion for her psychological analyses.

Chaudhary Tahir Naveed, in his application, said: “As per birth certificate issued by the authority concerned, the age of the petitioner is about 11 years. Now, in these circumstances, it is necessary in the great interest of justice to appoint a medical board for determination of her age.”

The report forwarded by the ASP (Ramna Circle) to the SSP Islamabad says: “The accused girl, booked under Section 295-B, was arrested by the Ramna Police and according to the law sent to the jail. It is important to determine her age and examine her mental soundness by establishing a medical board to ascertain the facts.” But the jail administration refused to follow the order of the additional district magistrate. However, Rimsha’s counsel got the same order from the court of special magistrate.

The milieu of the episode is that the Ramna Police, succumbing to people’s pressure, lodged an FIR against the Christian girl, Rimsha, under blasphemy law for burning a page of ‘Noorani Qaeda’ on the night of August 16 (Thursday).

Police said that dozens of people hailing from Mehra Badi staged a protest demonstration and blocked Kashmir Highway and damaged police post demanding to lodge an FIR against the Christian girl and arrest her for allegedly committing the offence of blasphemy by burning a page of the Holy Qur’aan.

A high police officer who investigated into the matter found that 10-year-old Rimsha, resident of Mehra Jafar, burnt a page of ‘Noorani Qaeda’ unintentionally. The officer, in his report, termed the allegation as baseless adding that the allegation levelled against an innocent girl didn’t meet the criteria of committing blasphemy and she was not at all intelligent and just a child who didn’t even, know the law.

Police, ignoring SOP of judging criteria to register a case of blasphemy, registered the FIR and arrested her. Later, the girl was sent to Adiala Jail on judicial remand on August 18, which was again a violation of the Rule 10(3) of the Juvenile Justice Rules.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by ramana »

The poor girl will be Qadrified.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by member_22872 »

JohneeG ji, nice analysis. What if the problem is inherent in the very concept of islam? I think TSP is a special case or the case where in it is like immune system turned inward. If you look to the middle east, the birth place of Islam, they have problems too:
Iran<->Saudia Arabia and others (shia-sunni equation)
In Europe -> any muslim->christian equation
TSP is unique in that now the equation is more purer version having been surrounded by:
bania, shia, good talibani version of islam
so the fights and wars are because of nature of the beast the islam. The beast itself hasn't defined what it is, so may be it confuses it's own mirror image as it's own enemy that it will fight itself to death.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

SSridhar wrote:Wow
One thing about pakis, they are the gift that keeps on giving. From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe it seems.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

Neela wrote:BRF viewership in millions?!!!
BENIS,take a bow ! standtall! erect! :lol:
Damn it, entirely NSFW giggle-fit!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by ramana »

If you do a cumulative of the number of views of the different threads on the first page itself yes its over ~ two million.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by partha »

ramana wrote:The poor girl will be Qadrified.
Could be literally for she is lodged in the same jail as Qadri :(
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Prem »

JohneeG
Pakistan Paighambar Muhammad ki personal pehchan hai
Pakistan jo bhi karre woh hi Islam hai
TNT ko Jaise bhi dekho, Mazhab se yeh lagi Bimarri
Sauvirginity Allah ki thi, Amreeka ne lay-lee Sarrii
Aaj yeh Waqat hai, Bhai se darti hai,har Paki Behan kanwari
Wah wah Pakistan ,Khoob Dekhi teri Deen Khumari.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by lakshmikanth »

ramana wrote:The poor girl will be Qadrified.
And yet the liberatti head of the mult-headed-hydra-moster that isBakistan has the gall to point fingers at India on how yindus are scared of the "others".

How I wish our WKKs taste some of the Beaceful perfidy of their long lost Baki brothers, and how I wish the rest of the Indian population is isolated from getting hurt from the actions of our WKKs :(
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by MurthyB »

JohneeG,

Some years ago, I had a tubelight moment when I had thought and posted this:
MurthyB
Post subject: Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20 Posted: 02 Jun 2010 12:52 am


I don't see what the fuss about Ahmedis in Pureland is. Pureland was created for Muslims. Then it must be defined who a muslim is. After all, a Hindu can also claim to be muslim and thus the privileges of being a first class citizen of Pureland. Whenever you have a favored group, membership for that group has to be defined, otherwise you will have all sorts of gatecrashers. In racist America, the question of who was white was very important. Were you white if you were 1/8 black? Were Indians white (as one Sikh gentleman tried to argue in 1922 based on "Aryan" origins)? So Ahmediyas are not muslim as they violate one of the tenets on Islam. It's quite logical, and the result of creating a state based on a fascist ideology to start with.
I think your analysis is along a similar thought process.

I would add that Islam itself is a fascist religion as it divides people into believers (and thus "chosen") versus non-believers, unlike the dharmic strains from India where there is no central authority or book to create such an exclusion, and people can follow whichever path they want to. The other abrahamic faiths have this facism like islam too, but they have managed to put a lid on it. Some American lady had claimed in Time a few years ago that "Americans were like Hindus onlee" in terms of letting go of the "only truth" business. But in Jerusalem, there is a struggle going on between secular jews and orthodox who are increasingly strident about what and who Israel is for. Jews are much smarter than muslims in general, so Israel may work it out before it goes to Pakistan. But Pakistan is in a fix.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by lakshmikanth »

KLNMurthy wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Wow
One thing about pakis, they are the gift that keeps on giving. From Afghanistan to Zimbabwe it seems.
Its an attempt to do '=='.

GOI came up with a semi truthful excuse that Bakistanians were the source of the doctored pictures that was then used to exploit the IMs to go violent against the NE folks.

Now the attempt is to paint an '==' saying the yindoos are doing it too. It is a rather funny and laughable attempt at that. Expect this noise to increase in the future as more doctored pictures will be traced to $$hitland.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Lilo »

Ahmedabad woman held hostage in Karachi home for 13 years
An Indian woman, who left her country and religion to marry a Pakistani man, claims that her husband has locked her up in a small room on the roof of their house here for the past 13 years.

Shirley Ann Hodges married Gul Muhammad Khan, a Pakistani money lender, after meeting him in Ahmedabad city of Gujarat in the summer of 1997. She changed her name to Shabnam Gul Khan and came to Pakistan in 2000 with her newborn daughter.

At the time, Khan said they were going to Pakistan to meet his family and that they would return to India within six months.

However, as soon as Shabnam landed in Karachi, she was abruptly introduced to Khan's first wife and their six children, she told The Express Tribune.
Shabnam's Indian passport was seized and she was given a burqa and locked away on the top floor of her in-laws' home.

Shabnam has been confined in the top floor of the house for the past 13 years and is not allowed any visitors.
Her only contact with the outside world is through the internet and her mobile phone, the Tribune reported.
"I am a prisoner and this is a hell. For years, I have not gone out from my room. I want to go back to my family in India," she said....
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Nandu »

Wish I could feel some sympathy for her, but I find it difficult. Pakis are kidnapping unwilling and underage Hindu girls and doing the same to them, while this mohtorma subjected herself to it willingly.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by SSridhar »

johneeG, you have a pm.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Prem »

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2012_pg3_5

Sour Cream —Maha Boob Qa Dir

( Monkey Trap Confirm, Donkey Trap Firm, Jihad Trap Garm and Fuddu Trap Fully Hajam)
Besides Kashmir as the main catalyst, that bundle also includes militancy, uncompromising armed jihadist narrative, the rise and dominance of military security paradigm leading to nuclearisation, a chronic insecurity syndrome and their sub-sets. Those include sectarian conflict, polarisation of state institutions, radicalisation of society, mushrooming of militant organisations including their link up with trans-border terrorists, degradation of vital human resource indicators, stunted national growth, and incoherent national paradigm. Another result has been the relegation of other major national issues like climate change, degradation of environment, equitable distribution of river waters, resolution of Sir Creek and Siachen disputes, runaway population and international trade to name a few. Pakistan has become hostages to these demons, which have the country and the region gripped by nagging anxiety, providing an opportunity to sub-players to run their irresponsible fantasies.
That symptomatic diagnosis in which Kashmir had stood out as a major engine of the poor turn of events for us seems to have kicked off a healthy debate indicating how ginger is the issue and how fixated the respective standpoints. In the process, it also confirmed the leading civil hypothesis that across the spectrum there is a passionate desire to leave the matter behind and move forward to normalise relations. Agreed. But merely expression of good intentions and pious declarations would not do except open the door. The yard is to be cleared first to move across. To do so, an exercise to determine the extent of affliction is necessary for us to assemble a healing remedy as the malaise refuses to go away. Whatever the remedy, that is not the subject of this article, but is not certainly going to be any wishful thinking that Pakistan may have ardently espoused or what India may have fancifully fashioned.
Pathan tribesmen’s fateful raid in 1948 to realise their coveted passion in Kashmir aided equally eventfully by self-styled adventurers from Pakistan army, and Indian army’s corresponding insertion into the Valley, put together, had been the single episode that triggered a cascading chain of events, which continue to wreak havoc into every sphere of our national life. This twain had been the greatest disservice to the peace, progress and stability in the region and their predominant bete noire from insidious effects point of view. This is not a political or patriotic bluster but a statement of cold facts. Here is how it unfolded to ravage Pakistan, which is why it stands out so tall in the gallery of rogues.
It instantly gave an odious locus standi and a physical object to fight for to the tribal lashkars attacking Kashmir in 1948 and their private supporters from the army. They claimed to be waging a holy jihad for liberation of Kashmir from occupying Indian army. Whereas it was basically a case of securing a traditionally Pathan-ruled Muslim majority territory, habitually by force of arms. Pathans of the KPK and Mughal emperors had always considered Jammu and Kashmir their extended home territory. Dogra rule over Jammu and Kashmir was never recognised as legitimate so their accession as claimed to India was void in public perception. That is why a British officer was able to lead armed struggle for liberation of Gilgit-Baltistan from tenuous Dogra rule during the same period and then successfully acceded the liberated territory to Pakistan.
Private support to the 1948 Kashmir war by elements of Pakistan army and absence of any meaningful action against that serious breach of military discipline sowed the seeds of future military adventurism that led to full-scale wars with India, the Kargil disaster, senselessness of seeking strategic depth in Afghanistan and messing with Taliban when they were in power. A dangerous precedence was set, which eventually led to grievous consequences. Break up of Pakistan in 1971 was a direct and most emphatic result of that acquired destructive trait.
Kashmir war of 1948 exposed fledgeling Pakistan’s vulnerability to a powerful neighbour and brewed a deep distrust in India’s sovereign pledges given on various accounts. From then on Pakistan began to live with a chronic sense of insecurity and threat from India. Pakistan’s political leadership capsized and fatally leant against the army to evolve and manage national security, thus abdicating an indispensible civil political function of paramount importance. This should explain why country’s nuclear programme practically remains the exclusive domain of the army. A custody though suited to our objective security environment/paradigm yet is unprecedented in the modern political history.
Army became the custodian of national security, proponent of liberation of Kashmir, judge and the prosecutor of patriotism and in late General Zia’s time also the defenders of the country’s ideological frontiers. Ideological frontiers as defined by the army high command. There was no one left with vision and courage enough to challenge this potentially destructive self-assignment and the critical concentration of national centre of gravity into the army, which is a very small percentage of the total national mass. Defence of the ideological frontiers perforce brought the army close to the religious parties and their more aggressive elements mainly due to direct patronage of General Zia who was seeking legitimacy by However, Pakistan army and the Islamists are two most unlikely bedmates.
Though routed in Balakot (1831) and Delhi (1857), the jihadi sentiment continued to lurk beneath the surface in Punjab and the KPK. Punjab was still seeking to regain the lost glory of the Mughal times where as for the frontiersmen, their proverb proves their yearning, which says ‘To each his home is Kashmir’. Indian offensive in Kashmir relieved them and their failure to secure the territory firmly etched the idea of liberation of Jammu and Kashmir through the force of arms on the popular psyche in Pakistan. It has not gone away ever since. There appears a convergence of sorts on views between the army and the nationwide popular jihadi sentiment about the final settlement of the Kashmir dispute. This is potentially a dangerous and eruptive confluence of interests.
Major Pakistani rivers flow out of Kashmir. Indian occupation of the Valley transformed it from a lower riparian state to an upper riparian state. Her hold on the mother source of Kabul River resulted in a disadvantageous Indus Waters Treaty in the 1960s. Pakistan gave up two out of five rivers and the remaining are being systematically siphoned off under the contentious treaty uniquely brokered by literally the book keepers of the World Bank. This treaty has effectively laid the foundation of the next flare up between the two countries. No less than 97 dams and diversions of all sizes have been planned and built by India on our rivers upstream.
Preceding overview may show in how many different ways our blistering birthmark has devastated our country, souring our dreams and those of generations to come. The Kashmir that appeared a necessity in continuity has become a nemesis in being. Its effects have ripped through constitutionality, progress, good neighbourliness, and our very humanity. It has militarised our faith, disabled compassion, and vulgarised our worldview. It was time to take a minute out of 65 years of our madness. We have fruitlessly indulged in a competitive Greek dialogue to win and humiliate the other on critical issues and reached nowhere. We must engage in a Socratic discourse to realise what we do not know. It produces profound psychological change among the participants. Profound change we may not expect in our hardened views unless the debate takes place in good faith and without malice.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Shaashtanga »

The future of Pakistan - Tarek Fateh's harsh verdict on DJinnah & Pakjabi inferiority complex.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by johneeG »

MurthyB wrote:JohneeG,

Some years ago, I had a tubelight moment when I had thought and posted this:
MurthyB
Post subject: Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20 Posted: 02 Jun 2010 12:52 am


I don't see what the fuss about Ahmedis in Pureland is. Pureland was created for Muslims. Then it must be defined who a muslim is. After all, a Hindu can also claim to be muslim and thus the privileges of being a first class citizen of Pureland. Whenever you have a favored group, membership for that group has to be defined, otherwise you will have all sorts of gatecrashers. In racist America, the question of who was white was very important. Were you white if you were 1/8 black? Were Indians white (as one Sikh gentleman tried to argue in 1922 based on "Aryan" origins)? So Ahmediyas are not muslim as they violate one of the tenets on Islam. It's quite logical, and the result of creating a state based on a fascist ideology to start with.
I think your analysis is along a similar thought process.

I would add that Islam itself is a fascist religion as it divides people into believers (and thus "chosen") versus non-believers, unlike the dharmic strains from India where there is no central authority or book to create such an exclusion, and people can follow whichever path they want to. The other abrahamic faiths have this facism like islam too, but they have managed to put a lid on it. Some American lady had claimed in Time a few years ago that "Americans were like Hindus onlee" in terms of letting go of the "only truth" business. But in Jerusalem, there is a struggle going on between secular jews and orthodox who are increasingly strident about what and who Israel is for. Jews are much smarter than muslims in general, so Israel may work it out before it goes to Pakistan. But Pakistan is in a fix.
Yes, saar. We are thinking on similar lines.

My eureka moment was the following:
johneeG wrote:
SSridhar wrote:(arun wrote >>Why does the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a country that goes to absurd lengths to demonstrate its Mohammadden piety and further one that constantly lectures the world that Mohammaddenism is a “Religion of Peace” feels it necessary to ban cell phone services in order to prevent its Mohammadden citizens from killing each other on the day of a major Mohammadden festival?)

Because the Land of the Pure (now on its way to being the Land of the Purest) has to protect itself against the Yahud-Hanud-Nasara kafir conspiracy. One must know that a Muslim does not kill another Muslim, especially in Pakistan. AoA.
Paradox of that highlighted statement is that they are killing each other due to the dispute over definition of 'muslim'. So, one can very well claim that 'a muslim does not kill another muslim'. But before that, one has to first determine 'who is a muslim?'.

Is Shia muslim? Is Sunni muslim? Is Ahmediya muslim? Is wahabi muslim...so on and so forth.

Once it is clear 'who muslim is', then we can examine the accuracy of the claim 'a muslim does not kill another muslim'.
----
How did you find your 2 year old post? :shock:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by shiv »

Great post JohneeG

I had this quote from Naipaul in my ebook
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf
In a remarkably prescient passage Naipaul observes (75),

The state withered, but faith didn't. Failure only led
back to the faith. The state had been founded as a
homeland for Muslims. If the state failed it wasn't
because the dream was flawed, or the faith flawed; it
could only be because men had failed the faith. And in
that quest of the Islamic absolute the society of
believers, where every action was instinct with worship
men lost sight of the political origins of their
state...Extraordinary claims began to be made for
Pakistan: it was founded as the land of the pure; it was
to be the first truly Islamic state since the days of the
Prophet and his close companions


The average Pakistani citizen was coerced or co-opted by
putting Islam first. Pakistan, it was stressed, was
created by Muslims for Muslims. Every Pakistani had to
strive to be a good Muslim. To be Pakistani was to be a
good Muslim. Muslim clerics, the mullahs and the ulema
were necessarily allowed to exercise spiritual control
over the Pakistani masses to ensure that Pakistan
remained adequately and properly Islamic in all arenas.
It was drummed in that this was necessary because India
was always there to swallow up Pakistan. India had been
held in check only by God and the Pakistani army, which
presented itself as the savior, ‘the army of Islam,’
upholding the faith and protecting Pakistan. Co-opting
the Pakistani citizen under the Islam banner eminently
served the interests of the rich and corrupt elite of
Pakistan in maintaining their grip and preserving their
business and territorial interests. And the Pakistani
state died. In his characteristically astute manner V.S,
Naipaul concludes (75):

Step by step, out of its Islamic striving, Pakistan had
undone the rule of law it had inherited from the British,
and replaced it with nothing

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Lilo wrote:Ahmedabad woman held hostage in Karachi home for 13 years
An Indian woman, who left her country and religion to marry a Pakistani man, claims that her husband has locked her up in a small room on the roof of their house here for the past 13 years.

Shirley Ann Hodges married Gul Muhammad Khan, a Pakistani money lender, after meeting him in Ahmedabad city of Gujarat in the summer of 1997. She changed her name to Shabnam Gul Khan and came to Pakistan in 2000 with her newborn daughter.

At the time, Khan said they were going to Pakistan to meet his family and that they would return to India within six months.

However, as soon as Shabnam landed in Karachi, she was abruptly introduced to Khan's first wife and their six children, she told The Express Tribune.
Shabnam's Indian passport was seized and she was given a burqa and locked away on the top floor of her in-laws' home.

Shabnam has been confined in the top floor of the house for the past 13 years and is not allowed any visitors.
Her only contact with the outside world is through the internet and her mobile phone, the Tribune reported.
"I am a prisoner and this is a hell. For years, I have not gone out from my room. I want to go back to my family in India," she said....
The fact that Siasat is reporting this is another positve
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Anujan »

From Yawn this day 50 years ago
http://dawn.com/2012/08/29/non-muslims- ... s-opposed/
The Communications Minister, Khan Abdus Sabur, yesterday opposed the inclusion of non-Muslims in the Muslim League.
But didnt Jinnah say Hindus can be Hindus, Muslims can be Muslims, something something in a speech that nobody seems to be able to find?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by partha »

Pakistanis have difficulty in accepting evidence in case of 9/11, OBL raid, 26/11 but want rest of the world to believe Jinnah made a secular speech (and hence Pakistan is supposed to be a liberal, secular state) when no evidence of it exists.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Anujan »

One interesting thing is as follows: Take Gandhiji for example. Take his stance on some issue, say opposing the British and favoring self rule. Even if someone manages to lose his quit India speech of 1942, I am sure one can dig up hundreds of speeches, correspondences and interviews which lays down his vision. The man thought British should leave. There is no question about that.

The peculiar thing about Jinnah that always stuck me was if Jinnah was very convinced about a secular Pakistan there would be tens of speeches, correspondences and interviews. Not this one particular purported speech that everyone seems to hang their hat on. And even that speech seems to be missing. All people can say is "my fourth cousin said his uncle's grandfather's driver's brother heard a speech on radio once where jinnah said "Secular", he might have said "Peshawar" but I am not sure"

Properly thought out and passionate stances and visions are articulated in several speeches, letters, interviews and writings.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by SSridhar »

Anujan wrote:From Yawn this day 50 years ago
http://dawn.com/2012/08/29/non-muslims- ... s-opposed/
The Communications Minister, Khan Abdus Sabur, yesterday opposed the inclusion of non-Muslims in the Muslim League.
But didnt Jinnah say Hindus can be Hindus, Muslims can be Muslims, something something in a speech that nobody seems to be able to find?
This was 1962 by which time, there had been half-a-dozen Muslim Leagues and Jinnah's ML had disappeared.

The disintegration of the Muslim League started even during the life time of Jinnah as the two powerful landlords of the Punjab, Chief Minister Nawab Mamdot and his minister Mumtaz Daultana, began to develop irreconcilable differences which even a Jinnah could not resolve. Later, the powerless Liaquat Ali Khan, recommended the dismissal of the Mamdot ministry leading eventually to the splitting of the Muslim League in the most important province of the Punjab in July 1950 with Mamdot forming his own Jinnah Awami Muslim League. Husseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy had already left Muslim League on differences with its leadership and formed his own Awami League in March 1950. Earlier, the popular Maulana Bhashani of East Pakistan had already formed the ‘East Pakistan Awami Muslim League’ and the notorious Pir of Manki Sharif, who instigated trouble against the Congress government in NWFP and then in the Princely State of Jammu & Kashmir, had formed his own, ‘Frontier Awami Muslim League’. In any case, the Muslim League itself was banned after the 1958 army coup which brought Ayub Khan to power. Thus a political party that had been rigged up solely for very narrow personal interests of a few elites unraveled quickly and fell by the wayside within 11 years of achieving its goal. In 1962, Ayub Khan himself formed his own Pakistan Muslim League.

Not that the minister would have said anything different had Jinnah's ML continued.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Anujan »

Remember the time period between May 2011 and June 2012? The time period in which OBL was found in Pakistan, Haqqanis blew up an american base and Pakistan blocked NATO supplies? Well Pakistan has sent a bill of $2 Billion to USA as reimbursement for "fighting terrorism" between May 2011 and June 2012

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... bill-to-US
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by SSridhar »

Anujan wrote:The peculiar thing about Jinnah that always stuck me was if Jinnah was very convinced about a secular Pakistan there would be tens of speeches, correspondences and interviews.
That's exactly the point. There was neither one before nor one after. On the day of Independence, Gandhiji was in Naokhali trying to bring peace between Hindus & Muslims and on the same day, Jinnah was requesting the most rabid and most fundamentalist Deobandi cleric (who wanted Ahmedis to be stoned to death and who apostatized Shi'a), Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani, to raise the Pakistan's flag at Karachi.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Vikas »

So what is the big deal about one speech ? Even if he gave such a speech, How does it change the fact that Jinnah wanted a Pakistan for Muslims exclusively and was responsible for so many deaths and refugees in 1947.
Even in his so called speech, all that he said was that you are free to go to your religious places and state has nothing to do with it. Fact remains that as GG of Pakistan and a political animal, he would have said lot many things to lot many people to placate them and win them over, what matters is his actions and nothing in the period 1940-48 shows that he wanted Pakistan to be a secular republic.
The rumor also is that he wanted to go back and settle down in Bombay.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by sum »

Meanwhile in TIRP ( courtesy the Nation :rotfl: ):

China set to take over reins of strategic Gwadar port in Pakistan
China appears all set to take over the reins of Pakistan's strategic Gwadar port in Balochistan with the Singapore Port Authority (SPA) and its partners intending to pull out of a 40-year management and development contract.

The SPA and its partners, the National Logistics Cell and AKD Group, have been allowed to quit the project after the government failed to transfer 584 acres at the mouth of the port that are currently in the possession of the Pakistan Navy.

"We have not been able to meet contractual obligations and resolve land issues. As a result they (SPA and its partners) have gone under duress and we issued them a no objection certificate yesterday to give up their contract," Ports and Shipping Minister Babar Khan Ghauri told a meeting of the Senate's Standing Committee on Ports and Shipping yesterday.

"Now the Chinese will take over Gwadar Port," Ghauri said.

He indicated that China will invest USD 10 billion to develop the port in Balochistan and manage its operations but did not give details.

After its development by the Chinese government at a cost of USD 288 million, Pakistan's only deep sea port was handed over to SPA under a 40-year agreement in February 2007.

The army-run National Logistics Cell and AKD Group of Karachi were party to the agreement, which covered the management, operations, maintenance and development of the port.

Ghauri said that while many people in Pakistan blamed international players for unrest in Balochistan and competing regional port operators for the lack of progress in the Gwadar port, it was "shameful" that a friendly foreign operator had to leave the port because of the navy's "changing positions" on vacating land despite a clear decision by the government.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by SSridhar »

sum wrote:Meanwhile in TIRP ( courtesy the Nation):
Sum, in fact, TIRP was a term coined here during a discussion and I have also seen it being used though rarely, though TSP has remained the norm. That is why, I say that the Motorham and her Zimbabwean friend are keen and long time followers of BRf.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by Atri »

JohneeG garu

These are slightly old views of mine.. Some of them have changed since I wrote this...

Understanding Islamic social power-structure: Critical Appraisal of Muhammad from perspective of memetics
Introduction

Philosophers come up with all sorts of philosophies they feel like. We have whole range of them. They are originators of memes.

The blame for misuse of ideologies and subsequent massacre of people lie on the head of kings and policy makers who utilize the suitable meme from available set of memes for gaining political mileage. Just like Constantine for life time was massacring Christians and on his death bed, accepted Christianity and started massacring Pagans. Constantine made Jesus as popular as he is today. Ashok made Buddha as popular. Without Constantine and Ashok, Jesus and Buddha were just another philosophers.

Muhammad was one of the very few originators of religious memes who patronized himself to become so successful. He did not depend upon some king. This shows that he was a successful human being. He became an authentic policy-maker of his kingdom and as I said, political policy-makers are the ones to blame primarily for misuse of the ideological memes. Muhammad being originator and implementor of Islam, gets both the accolades for being so immensely successful and criticisms for using his own philosophy for gaining political mileage.

The character was Adolf Hitler showed slightly similar trajectory. He came up with philosophy, he got power, he implemented his philosophy and became immensely popular. And later, infamous !!!

Muhammad was a man of power and always aspired to be one. He was an ambitious man. I am just looking at him as an ambitious politician and a human being, instead of divine messenger. This was not the case with Moses and Jesus as they were just another philosophers and not politicians and policy-makers. They came up with philosophy, people utilized it for their good and evil.

This "Islam in danger" mentality is the real pain in the ass for Muslims. Sadly Muslims don't recognize this. This is denotes the influence of Mullah-theocracy under whose exasperating influence lies the Muslim society, and will cause their doom in coming days.

The social power-structure

A Qazi or a Mullah controls the social matters and ascertains the "report-card" of spiritual progress of ordinary Abdul. And sad part is ordinary Abdul in India can't even think of rebelling because if he does, he will be branded as "enemy of Islam" by power-establishment and will bring "Islam in danger". Hence, Jihad against him.

"One God-One Book-One Prophet-No Pork" was so far the best definition of Islam given to me by an illiterate Thai-Muslim cleaning lady in my dormitory. This is the central dogma. Around this central dogma has developed a system in which Mullah who uses this opiate (of religion) to control masses and usurps power, himself consumed by the one. Thus, once a part of system which gives you enormous power as long as you keep ordinary Abdul frightened of divine wrath, it is an extremely seductive offer.

Ordinary Abdul is prohibited to learn Quran in his mother-tongue. He is prohibited and threatened with his life, he tries and makes his own interpretation of the book which somehow goes against this power-structure. He is forced to suspend his critical faculties in favour of faith and fear of Sky-daddy. He is actively dissuaded from free-thinking.

This power-structure is inherently linked perhaps with the nature and Chitta-Vritti of Prophet Muhammad himself. Belief in Allah is not enough to ensure the place in heaven. One has to depend upon Muhammad's favours and his influence on god to go to heaven and get 72 hoors. Thus, Muhammad made himself more powerful than Allah.

Thus, in Islam for all practical purposes, Muhammad, the Rasool, is supremely powerful figure. This is as perfect and complete as it can get. Muhammad will only talk to Allah about you if you were a true Muslim.

But who determines who the true-Muslim is and who is not, herein lies the real crux of the issue.

Historical aspects of expansion of Islamic power-structure

Muhammad made himself irreplaceable and went to Jannat. But he left behind a power-structure which was perfectly organized in otherwise dispersed pre-Islamic Arabia. Thus, this power-structure was perfected and cemented by Islamic expansion under first four Caliphs.

Interesting thing is that, the important civilizations of that age were Western-Roman, Eastern-Roman, Egyptian, Carthaginian, Persian, Indian, Chinese. Persians and Byzantines (eastern-Roman) were exhausted in long warfare with each other. Persia in particular; which also had similarly modelled monotheistic power-structure of one-main god (Ahura Mazda)-One messenger (Zarathushtra)-One book (Zend Avesta).

Egypt was decadent. Carthinigians were ideologically stagnated for some time. Byzantines were strong because they had new influx of ideas from all over the world Istanbul being on silk-route, had access to traders, technologies and most importantly ideas from China, India, Persia, Israel, Greece and Rome. Thus, it took time for Islam to overcome Byzantines.

The biggest losers in the expanding power-structure of Islam were Persians and Egyptians; Persians in particular. The soft-monotheism of Zoroastrian Persia could not counter the hard and perfected monotheism of Islam. The military might of Persia was already weakened due to Byzantine wars. Hence Persia crumbled. Yet, time and again, Persia, unlike egypt, has shown that its old civilization is not dead yet. The memory is still very much alive in subconscious minds of Persians. The most glaring example of this is the persistent popularity of "Shahnama" by "Firdowsi" in Persia for over a thousand years now.

Bhaarat or India, OTOH, was a different ball game for Islam. Arabs could not conquer any part of region which was under influence of Indic civilization for at-least 250 years since their first raid on Sindh in 640 AD. Until 711 AD, there were many successive waves which were thoroughly repelled. Muhd bin Qasim successfully ventured into Sindh. However, arabs were gradually replaced by Sumer Rajputs in Sindh. Battle of Rajasthan completely nullified any Islamic influence in subcontinent for almost 300 years.

Interestingly, Afghanistan resisted Islamization for 250 years after fall and Islamization of Persia. The most interesting thing, worth noting is that central Asia (turkmenistan, Khazak, tajikistan etc) was conquered and Islamized about centure before Gaandhar and Afghanistan was. And within 20 years of fall of afghanistan, the Islamic raids started on Gaandhar and Kekay. This shows the influence and resilience of Indic civilization.

The Islamic expansion in India was primarily Central-Asian. Central Asian tribal mentality has been eternal enemy of Indic civilization since Rigvedic days and battle of ten kings. This mentality was always invasive towards throughout the history. Just that after Islamization, this tendency became more rabid and malignant. Destructive, it always was. But ideologically inferior and barbaric than Indic civilization.

But, this was not new to Bhaarat and Indic civilization was accustomed to assimilating new tribes, people, ideas and memes from central asia and perfectly Indianize them. Scythians, Kushans, Huns, Yavans and many others are glaring examples of this fact. The central asian variant of Islam too was gradually on verge of Indianization. Dara-Shikoh was the primary example of this co-synthesis of new Indianized traditions. The turning point in Indian Islam came with advent of Aurangzeb in 17th century. Herein, lies the place of Aurangzeb, and hence Shivaji, in Indian history. The defeat of Dara was IMHO one of the most tragic incidence in Indian history. Without Aurangzeb, there would have been a perfectly Indian variant of Islam.

Propagation

Propagation of Islam is in fact propagation of Mullah-based social power-structure associated with it.

Sufis played a major role, yes. But once Islam was established, they found themselves enlisted as Kaafirs along with other Kaafirs. Any established monolithic power-structure does not like influx of new ideas. Rather it wants controlled influx of new ideas. They prefer standardisation and mass-production over innovation. This ensures efficient execution of power-machinery.

Even where Sufis introduced their abstract free-thinking ideas, this free-thinking was standardised and all anomalies were removed by forcible imposition and dominance of Deobandi Islam, which is now followed by Wahabi Islam. Wahabism is so far the most efficiently standardised school of Islam with maximum devotion of followers towards Qazi-Mullah power structure and minimum anomalies. Anomalies are looked upon as abnormalities and are violently uprooted. They follow the literal meaning of the book.

They can and have declared non-Wahabis as Kuffars. But so far, no Deobandi or Barelvi or Sufi or Shia or ahmediya or Bahai people have dared to declare Wahabism as Kufr and un-Islamic. The power structure, along with separation of Abdul and Ayesha from ability to think rationally, gives propagation of Deobandi and Wahabi forms of Islam maximum mileage. Most of others are already enlisted as Kaafirs and are on target list of suicide bombers eager to meet their 72 in paradise. This is because, deep down, every Mullah knows, that he cannot defeat the Wahabi interpretation of Quran as Non-Islamic unless Quran is reformed, which is not allowed. Hence it seems that deobandis will have to merge in with Wahabis or become as fanatic as Wahabis.

The cycle initiated for grabbing and then cementing a lucrative position in the power-structure (Qazi/Mullah) initiated by Prophet Muhammad ends in Wahabization of Islam.

Concluding observations

Finally, it can said that, evolution and adaptation is fact of life which every replicating entity has to accept. And that evolution is best suited for the survival of a replicating entity or meme, when it is in harmony with surrounding or if it forces its surrounding to be in harmony with self.

Islam, when initiated, introduced much needed standardisation in otherwise free-thinking and dispersed Arabs. Standardization helps in efficient survival where resources are scarce and cost of living in terms of energy is high. Civilizations like India where resources are abundant and cost of living in terms of energy is ridiculously low, are better off being free-thinking and non-standardised because it is best suited for progress of mankind. Violent suppression of critical faculties of certain section of people leads to dissatisfaction between free-thinkers (Indic people) and standardised products (Sunni Muslims of Deobandi and Wahabi schools in particular) and hence leads to conflict.

Once ordinary Ayesha (common muslim woman) is emancipated from clutches of Qazi/Mullah based power-structure, the demise of this power-structure won't be far behind. It will be matter of one or two generations that this power-structure will meet its 72. Once Ayesha is emancipated, she will free Abduls as well. Because it is woman who holds the string of cradle and hence entire civilization.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by SSridhar »

6 soldiers killed in a clash in South Waziristan: ISPR
TTP spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan said “we have killed more than a dozen soldiers in South Waziristan. Some of the soldiers have been beheaded”.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2

Post by KJo »

Altair wrote:
Pakistan is satirically named as Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TIRP)
WTF!! :mrgreen:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tirp
Tirp

n. (tûrp).

Definition 1: An audible release of air derived from pockets of air caught between two individuals during intercourse. The sound is most commonly derived from the stomach or chest area and during a very heated and sweaty session. The sound is similar to a flatulence.

Definition 2: This sounds may also be derived from the sucking noise of two bodies separating during intercourse.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
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