Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[RajeshA]

Continuing from the post on Anatolian Homeland of IE languages.

• Mapping the Origins and Expansion of the Indo-European Language Family: Science
• Mother of Sanskrit and related languages was spoken by Turkish farmers, says new study: Times of India

Interesting thing is that they postulate that the migration from Anatolia started after the advent of agriculture because of increase in agricultural productivity between 8,500 and 9000 years ago.

Interesting thing, there is no horse and chariot in this scenario! Horse and Chariot come from the Pontic Steppes from around 4000 BCE!

But that is really no problem in proposing Anatolia, because they had agriculture there!!!! There horse and chariot is not needed! Horse and chariot is needed for India only!

As the study suggested, there are only two serious contenders for Indo-European Homeland - Anatolia and Pontic Steppes. India is disqualified because of no horse, but Anatolia is okay because Anatolia is so close to Europe, one can just run over the Bosporus in a months walk chewing on whole wheat-bread!

In order to come to India, these farmers first went to the Pontic Steppes to saddle their horses and build their chariots, and then the came marching down into India on their Vedic Tanks. But the migration in the other direction is out of the question. In Mehrgarh there was farming going on and granaries were found - with wheat, since 7000 BCE. But for some inexplicable reason, people from Indian Subcontinent could not have traveled to Europe over the Pontic Steppes taking their horses along with them!

[Murugan]

The international nexus of PIE/Evangelics/Dravidian Movement Exposed

Asko Parpola, Witzhell, Farmer, Mahadevan, "The Hindu" et al.

This is very detailed and exposes the pretension. never to believe any of their work, books, papers

http://newindian.activeboard.com/t47818 ... ahadevan-/

***

Interesting thing is that whole issue of Indology is hijacked by foreigners with help from dubious experts and media.

[ShauryaT]

There can be simple possibility for the lack of horse sites, not just in India but across the region, the numbers are few and far between. It is possible that the population of horses was quite low in the so called Neolithic age.

[Arjun]

Shivji, I do understand where ManishJi is coming from and nothing personal in my post. He seems well read and reasonable person and I am just interested to know how does he reconcile this.

Our very 'reasonable' guest has not bothered to respond to many arguments that go directly to the heart of the matter - raised by Rahul M, Shiv, RajeshA, myself and others. He has been quite diligent though, in responding patiently to low-level issues that don't make much of a difference to the final thesis.

Is there is any difference between Witzel's outlook on issues and that of our 'reasonable' AMT supporter? If there is, I have failed to notice it so far.

[shiv]

There can be simple possibility for the lack of horse sites, not just in India but across the region, the numbers are few and far between. It is possible that the population of horses was quite low in the so called Neolithic age.

Shaurya, if you stab a man and cause a fatal injury and then carry his still bleeding body for disposal, he will leave a trail of blood, initially copious, but in decreasing amounts until he has bled dry. Horses were so abundant in the Pontic steppe that they might sacrifice 14 horses for a single funeral and they formed 40% of the meat diet and 80% of animal bones in some finds. Surely, the routes they took to various parts of the world should be peppered with horse bones, initially plentiful and later more sparse until we get to India where, as you say, the bone findings are relatively smaller.

Where are those en-route bone findings? A series of migrations over starting from Pontic steppe 2000 BC is most likely to have occured over the same well known migration/trade routes already developed from 3000 to 2000 BC between the Indus valley, BMAC and Mesopotamian civilizations. There were surely resting places en route. Dozens of horse findings appears suddenly in central Asia after 3600 BC. How come none are being found along the alleged routes of migration? Did nobody die along the way? Did the people who revelled in horse and chariot burials and horse meat stop all that business till they got to India and then made up poems? The story is not just a bad one, it's one of the worst stories I have heard in my life and the name "Harvard" has gone down several notches in my mind - never mind that my Macaulayite self was taught to stand up and do salaam/pranaam/fall at feet of the name Harvard.

And this lie is easily covered up in the country that holds the most important evidence of all for this fakery - the Rig Veda. Because Indians are stupid enough to not know more than one sanskrit word even as they worship Harvard and the few sepoys who know sanskrit also worship white man and his universities. If he lies, we must lie to ourselves too. The Rig veda is not a "Pastoral Horse burial culture document" even if a man who claims to know Sanskrit tells you so. But because we Indians are such miserable ghulaams we sit up and take note obediently when gora aadmi craps on Rig Veda and puts tilak on our foreheads with that crap. We do a pranaam, an aarti and walk 3 times round the man to pay obeisance. All Vedic stuff.

Let alone horse. After all the "deep linguistic links" that suggest a very early common origin of IE words of body parts also has a similar suggestion of common origin of chariot/wagon/wheel words. Words for wheel, axle etc. The theory is that these words travelled with language, starting from 2000 BC steppe to 1200 BC India. But India has wheel and wagon evidence from 2300 BC! Did the slavish Indian iliterates have no words for wheel and axle, whose models they made in Harappa? Did that language suddenly disappear and the people of 1200 BC suddenly give up words they had known for 1000 years and start using new Pontic words? But genetics shows mixing of genes no? The migrants mixed with the locals. What hapened to the old language? Will Mr. Harvard and his chamchas ever consider that the older language itself - in 2300 BC may well have been Indo-European. A proto sanskrit? A Prakrit? This puts a square rod up the backside of current language origin theories. So Mr Harvard and chamchas will not agree.

You see, Greek history remains the main plank of the history of the western world. Greek history must be given predominance. Hence the finding of Mycenaean Greek in 1800 BC puts a "terminus post quem" for Old Greek which simply must be declared the earliest of all European languages. Therefore the mother of old Greek must be PIE. If ancient Greek was 1800 BC, then PIE must be about 2000-2500 BC. All IE languages must be dated after this estimated date. For this reason, in faraway India, Rig Veda, conveniently undated, and available readily for rape with obsequious and servile Indians, is raped to declare that the friggin horse cult Rig Vedicks found out words for wheel and axle in 1200 B.C., despite having had wheels and axles for at least 1000 years before that date. If Mycenaean Greek dates from 1800 BC no Harvard scholar or accompanying chamcha can accept a date earlier than 1200 BC for any Indo-European language in india. Harappa and chariots can go stuff itself.

Not just Harvard. We are morons too. We need to attack these buffoons vigorously and show them up rather than the polite servile manner "Excuse me sir, we Indicks are polite onlee sir. Here, have pedha while I drop my pants" manner that we deal with them.

[RajeshA]

AIT-Sepoy Rajesh Kochhar in his book made the case that Afghanistan-Eastern Iran is better suited to be the area where Rig Veda was written.

One reason he offered was that the Soma plant which some have identified with the Ephedra plant does not grow in Punjab or India generally, but it grows in Afghanistan and Iran region.

Haoma (Soma) I Botany: Encyclopedia Iranica
Haoma (Soma) II Rituals: Encyclopedia Iranica

However Shrikant Talageri in his book "The Rigveda - A Historical Analysis"! sends Rajesh Kochhar for a six!

________________________

In the case of Soma, the argument is to the opposite effect: according to the scholars, the Soma plant was a species of Ephedra found in the extreme northwestern parts of India extending to Central Asia and beyond. Species of Ephedra found further eastwards were not capable of yielding the kind of juice described in the Rigveda.

Hence, the fact that the ritual use of Soma formed such an integral part of the Rigvedic religion in every period of the text (and that this feature is shared with the Iranians) proves that the Vedic Aryans entered India from the northwest, bringing the Soma plant and cult with them.

This is the argument. But is this argument either valid or logical, or in keeping with the facts of the case?

One undeniable fact is that the Soma plant was a native of the extreme northwestern and northern regions: all the references to the sources of Soma, in the Rigveda, make it very clear that the plant grew in the mountains of Kashmir, Afghanistan, and the extreme northwest of the Punjab.

But, arguing, solely from this fact, that the Vedic Aryans, who used Soma prominently in their rituals, also came from the northwestern parts, bringing the plant with them, is like arguing that the Irish people, to whom potatoes constitute a staple food, came from America to Ireland, bringing the potato plant with them. Or, that the medieval Europeans, who used Indian spices in their culinary diet, went to Europe from India, taking the spices with them.

Clearly, the use of a particular plant by a particular people cannot be the basis for historical conclusions about the geographical origins of that people, unless this is demonstrated by their traditional understanding of their association with the plant in question.

And the evidence in the Rigveda shows that:

1. The actual Soma-growing areas were distant and unknown to the Vedic Aryans in the early parts of the Rigveda, and became known to them only later after they expanded westwards.
2. The Soma plant and its ritual were not originally known to the Vedic Aryans and their priests, but were introduced to them in very early times by priests from the Soma-growing areas.
3. The expansion of the Vedic Aryans (and, by a chain of events, the dispersion of the Indo-Europeans, as we shall see in later chapters) into the west and northwest was a direct consequence of their quest for Soma.

The detailed evidence is as follows:

1. Soma is regarded as growing in distant areas: this area is so distant that it is constantly identified with the heavens (IV.26.6; 27.3, 4; VIII.100.8; IX.63.27; 66.30; 77.2; .86.24, etc.)
   
   The only specific thing known about the place of origin of Soma is that it grows on mountains (I.93.6; III.48.2; V.43.4; 85.2; IX.18.1; 62.4; 85.10; 95.4; 98.9, etc.). Nothing more specific is mentioned in the Family MaNDalas or the early upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I.
   
   The area of Soma is clearly not part of the Vedic area (nor is there even the slightest hint anywhere in the Rigveda that it ever was): it is constantly referred to as being far away (IV.26.6; IX.68.6; X.11.4; 144.4). This area is also known as the “dwelling of TvaSTR” (IV.18.3); and this is what the scholars have to say about TvaSTR: “TvaSTR is one of the obscurest members of the Vedic pantheon. The obscurity of the concept is explained… (by) HILLEBRANDT (who) thinks TvaSTR was derived from a mythical circle outside the range of the Vedic tribes.”14
   
   Soma is mythically reported to be brought by an eagle to the Vedic people, and even to their Gods, from its place of origin:
   

   Code: Select all

        I.80.2; 93.6; 
        III.43.7; 
        IV.18.13; 26.4-7; 27.3, 4; 
        V.45.9; 
        VI.20.6; 
        VIII.82.9; 100.8; 
        IX.68.6; 77.2; 86.24; 87.6; 
        X.11.4; 99.8; 144.4, 5.
   

   That this place of origin is alien to the Vedic people is clear from the fact that this eagle is reported to have to hurry (IV.26.5) to escape the guardians of Soma, who are described as attacking the eagle (IV.27.3) to prevent it from taking the Soma away.
   
   “TvaSTR is especially the guardian on Soma, which is called ‘the mead of TvaSTR’ (I.117.22)”15 and Indra is described as conquering TvaSTR in order to obtain the Soma.
   
   In his footnote to 1.43.8, Griffith refers to “the people of the hills who interfere with the gathering of the Soma plant which is to be sought there”.
   
   The Family MaNDalas are generally ignorant about the exact details of the Soma-growing areas. Whatever specific information is there is in the later MaNDalas:
   
   The prime Soma-growing areas are identified in VIII.64.11 as the areas near the SuSomA and ArjIkIyA rivers (the SohAn and HAro, northeastern tributaries of the Indus, in the extreme north of the Punjab and northwest of Kashmir) and SaryaNAvAn (a lake in the vicinity of these two rivers). In VIII.7.29, the reference is to the SuSoma and ArjIka (in the masculine gender, signifying mountains; while the rivers of these names are in the feminine gender), clearly the mountains which gave rise to the SusomA and ArjIkIyA rivers, alongwith SaryaNAvAn (which also appears in X.35.2 as a mountainous area, perhaps referring to the mountains surrounding the lake of the same name).
   
   In another place, the best Soma is said to be growing on the MUjavat mountains. The MUjavat tribes are identified (Atharvaveda V-XXII-5, 7, 8, 14) with the GandhArIs. These mountains are therefore also in the extreme north of the Punjab and in adjacent parts of Afghanistan.
   
   That GandhArI (Afghanistan) in the Rigveda is associated with Soma is clear from the specific role assigned in the Rigveda to the Gandharva or gandharvas (mythical beings associated in the Rigveda with that region). In the words of Macdonell: “Gandharva is, moreover, in the RV often associated (chiefly in the ninth book) with Soma. He guards the place of Soma and protects the races of the gods (9.83.4; cp. 1.22.14). Observing all the forms of Soma, he stands on the vault of heaven (9.85.12). Together with Parjanya and the daughters of the sun, the Gandharvas cherish Soma (9.113.3). Through Gandharva’s mouth the gods drink their drought (AV.7.73.3). The MS (3.8.10) states that the Gandharvas kept the Soma for the gods… It is probably as a jealous guardian of Soma that Gandharva in the RV appears as a hostile being, who is pierced by Indra in the regions of air (8.66.5) or whom Indra is invoked to overcome (8.1.11). … Soma is further said to have dwelt among the Gandharvas…”16
   
   All these places are found mentioned only in the later MaNDalas (i.e. after the westward expansion of the Vedic Aryans):
   

   Code: Select all

   ArjIkA/ArjIkIyA: 
                    VIII. 7.29; 64.11; 
                    IX. 65.23; 113.2; 
                    X. 75.5.
   
   SuSoma/SuSomA: 
                    VIII. 7.29; 64.11; 
                    X. 75.5.
   
   SaryaNAvAn: 
                    I. 84.14; 
                    VIII. 6.39; 7.29; 64.11; 
                    IX. 65.22: 113.1; 
                    X. 35.2.
   
   MUjavat: 
                    X. 34.1.
   
   GandhArI: 
                    I. 126.6.
   

2. The special priests of the Vedic Aryans (i.e. of the Bharatas) were the ANgirases, VasiSThas and ViSvAmitras. These priests, however, are not specially associated with the Soma plant and ritual.
   
   The following table will make the position clear: (click on the link)
   
   As we can see, the nine priestly families are divided into two distinct categories: the KaSyapas and BhRgus, who are very specially associated with Soma, and the other seven families which are not. The Bharatas separate the two groups.
   
   Clearly, the KaSyapas and BhRgus are the two families which are specially associated with Soma. And these are the two families which were originally alien to the Vedic Aryans: the KaSyapas are associated throughout Indian tradition with Kashmir (KaSyapa-mIra); and the BhRgus, except for one branch consisting of Jamadagni and his descendants, are associated with the enemies of the Vedic Aryans living to their north and northwest (as we shall see in greater detail in our chapter on the Indo-Iranian homeland). Both these families are thus directly associated with the Soma-growing areas to the north and northwest of the Vedic Aryan territory.
   
   It is not only in the statistical analysis of the number of verses to Soma that the special relationship shared by these two families with the Soma plant and ritual becomes apparent; the joint testimony of the Avesta and the Rigveda also confirms this special relationship. As Macdonell puts it: “The RV and the Avesta even agree in the names of ancient preparers of Soma; Vivasvat and Trita Aptya on the one hand, and Vivanhvant, Athwya and Thrita on the other.”17
   
   According to the Avesta, the first preparer of Soma was Vivanhvant (Vivasvat), the second was Athwya (Aptya) and the third was Thrita (Trita).
   
   Vivasvat in the Rigveda is generally the Sun (note: in many references, the sky is referred to as “VivasvAn’s dwelling”, which may be compared with the reference to AuSija’s dwelling or abode in our discussion on the word AuSija in our chapter on the chronology of the Rigveda); but Vivasvat is also the name of the father of two persons: Yama and Manu. In the Avesta also, Vivanhvant is the father of Yima.
   
   Both Vivasvat and Yama Vaivasvata are identified in the Rigveda as BhRgus (see the discussion on the YAmAyana group of RSis in our chapter on the composers of the Rigveda); and Manu Vaivasvata is identified in the AnukramaNIs of VIII.29 with KaSyapa.
   
   Trita Aptya is not clearly identified with any family in the Rigveda, but it is significant that he is described by the GRtsamadas (Kevala BhRgus) in II.11-19 as belonging to “our party” (Griffith’s translation).
   
   The KaSyapas are indeed very closely associated with Soma: not only are 70.60% of the verses composed by them dedicated to Soma PavamAna, but the AprI-sUkta of the KaSyapas is the only AprI-sUkta dedicated to Soma (all the other nine AprI-sUktas are dedicated to Agni).
   
   But while the KaSyapas are exclusive Soma priests, the fact is that they entered the Rigveda at a late stage: they became exclusive Soma priests in the period following the expansion of the Vedic Aryans into the Soma-growing areas.
   
   The identification of the BhRgus with Soma is deeper, older and more significant: it is clear that the Soma plant originated among the BhRgus of the northwest, and it is they who introduced the plant and its rituals to the Vedic Aryans and their priests:
   
   1. The word Soma, which occurs thousands of times in the hymns of the Rigveda, is found in the name of only one composer RSi: SomAhuti BhArgava.
   2. The word PavamAna, which occurs more than a hundred times in the Soma PavamAna MaNDala, is found only once outside MaNDala IX: in VIII.101.14 composed by Jamadagni BhArgava.
   3. Both the Rigveda and the Avesta, as we have seen, are unanimous in identifying BhRgus as the earliest preparers of Soma..
   4. The overwhelming majority of the hymns to Soma in MaNDala IX, as we have seen in our chapter on the chronology of the Rigveda, are composed by RSis belonging to the Middle and Late Periods of the Rigveda: the only two hymns (other than hymns by BhRgus) which can be ascribed (and only, as we have pointed out, for the lack of clear contrary evidence) to. RSis belonging to the period of the three Early Family MaNDalas are IX.71 (ascribed to RSabha VaiSvAmitra of MaNDala III) and IX.90 (ascribed to VasiSTha MaitrAvaruNI of MaNDala VII).
      
      However, fourteen hymns are ascribed to BhRgu RSis. Of these, two which are ascribed to Jamadagni BhArgava (IX.62, 65) of the period of MaNDala III, are clearly composed by his descendants; but the remaining twelve hymns are ascribed to remote ancestral BhRgu RSis of the pre-Rigvedic period, who are already ancient and mythical even in the oldest MaNDalas: Vena BhArgava (IX.85), USanA KAvyA (IX.87-89) and KavI BhArgava (IX.47-49, 75-79).
      
      The oldest Soma hymns in the Rigveda therefore appear to be composed exclusively by BhRgus.
   5. The Rigveda clearly indicates that it was the BhRgus who introduced Soma to the Vedic Aryans, and to their Gods and priests. According to at least three references (I.116.12; 117.22; 119.9), the location or abode of Soma was a secret; and this secret was revealed to the ASvins by Dadhyanc, an ancient BhRgu RSi, already mythical in the Rigveda, and older than even Kavi BhArgava and USanA KAvya. Dadhyanc is the son of AtharvaNa, and grandson of the eponymous BhRgu.
      
      Even the symbolism inherent in the eagle who brought Soma to the Vedic Aryans probably represents this role of the BhRgus: according to Macdonell, “the term eagle is connected with Agni Vaidyuta or lightning (TB 3, 10, 51; cp. 12.12)”;18 and likewise, “BERGAIGNE thinks there can hardly be a doubt that bhRgu was originally a name of fire, while KUHN and BARTH agree in the opinion that the form of fire it represents is lightning”19 (see also Griffith’s footnote to IV.7.4)
      
      The evidence in the Rigveda thus clearly shows that the Vedic Aryans did not come from the Soma-growing areas bringing the Soma plant and rituals with them: the Soma plant and rituals were brought to the Vedic Aryans from the Soma-growing areas of the northwest by the BhRgus, priests of those areas.
3. The expansion of the Vedic Aryans into the west and northwest was a direct consequence of their quest for Soma:
   
   The westward movement commenced with the crossing of the Sutudri and VipAS by ViSvAmitra and the Bharatas under SudAs, described in hymn III.33; and the fifth verse of the hymn clarifies both the direction and purpose of this crossing.
   
   Griffith translates III.33.5 (in which ViSvAmitra addresses the rivers) as: “Linger a little at my friendly bidding; rest, Holy Ones, a moment in your journey…”; but he clarifies in his footnote: “At my friendly bidding: according to the Scholiasts, YAska and SAyaNa, the meaning of me vAcase somyAya is ‘to my speech importing the Soma’; that is, the object of my address is that I may cross over and gather the Soma-plant.”
   
   This crossing, and the successful foray into the northwest, appears to have whetted the appetite of SudAs and the Bharatas for conquest and expansion: shortly afterwards, the ViSvAmitras perform an aSvamedha sacrifice for SudAs, described in III.53.11: “Come forward KuSikas, and be attentive; let loose SudAs’s horses to win him riches. East, west, and north, let the king slay the foeman, then at earth’s choicest place (vara A pRthivyA = KurukSetra) perform his worship.”
   
   While some expansion took place towards the east as well (KIkaTa in III.53.14), the main thrust of the expansion is clearly towards the west and northwest: the first major battle in this long drawn out western war is on the YamunA, the second (the DASarAjña) on the ParuSNI, and the final one in southern Afghanistan beyond the Sarayu.
   
   While SudAs was still the leader of the Bharatas in the battles on the YamunA and the ParuSNI, the battle beyond the Sarayu appears to have taken place under the leadership of his remote descendant Sahadeva in the Middle Period of the Rigveda.
   
   Sahadeva’s son (referred to by his priest VAmadeva in IV.15.7-10), who also appears to have been a participant. in the above battle beyond the Sarayu, may have been named Somaka in commemoration of earlier conquests of the Soma-growing areas of eastern Afghanistan by his father Sahadeva.

[vic]

Re Shiv

I Am trying to absorb all your posts over 100 pages. Can u kindly give your timeline, so that I can connect your posts? For instance-

Saraswati
Yamuna
Harappa 2000BC
Sanskrit xxxBC
Rigveda 1000BC
Ramyana 500BC
Mahabarta xxxBC
Buddha etc

[Arjun]

The Death of Sanskrit

Not sure how many have read this paper by Sheldon Pollock - a known AIT Nazi. The essential point he's trying to communicate through this article is that while Indians may have been bequeathed Sanskrit from the old PIE-speaking Aryans - they have been rather incompetent in taking care of the language and ensuring that it flourishes. Care of Sanskrit really ought to revert back to Indologists who are the rightful geneological successors to the PIE -Aryans !

This guy incidentally was awarded a Padma Shri by the UPA government. Infosys founder Narayana Murthy donated $5 Million to a project under his supervision to translate Sanskrit classics. Indologists are, after all, to be acknowledged as the true protectors and inheritors of the Sanskritic civilization.

Wonder if there is any doubt at all that, as Shiv ji has articulated,

We are morons too.

[member_23629]

Indian businessmess are morons of the first order. I recall Anand Mahindra also donated a large sum to the Harvard University's indology programme despite Rajiv Malhotra's efforts to dissuade him. The problem seems to be that Indians who excel in society are competent in a very narrow area -- outside that, they can be taken for a ride. There is also a very strong link bewtween AIT Nazis and Indian leftists (whose guardian angle is Congress party). They scratch each other's back. This link has to be broken.

[member_20317]

OT but I would request certain vocal members to bear with me while I write my experience.

I have administered the following test to a few colleagues of mine:

Western View:
• AIT is basically about CA goras coming in to attack South Indians on dd/mm/1500 BC who were the original natives of North India and present day north Indians are usurpers of this land. This is what the West wants us to believe.
• AMT is basically about CA goras migrating into the lands of original south Indians and then imposing their culture on the people who were present here.
• Sanskrit is the idea of these CA goras that they developed for our benefit, the converted people. In any case Sanskrit is not the language from And subsequent Invasions that came to India in various disguises were a favour too on Indians as Indians had lost their bearings and it was upto these benefactors to set things right. I even tell them some very sketchy ideas of Linguistics obtained here from ManishH ji, esp. the ‘Vocal Apparatus’ and the presence of ‘Scientifically established Laws that govern this Vocal Apparatus’ (in any case I don’t know or believe in linguistics when it is meant for evidencing history diachronically or otherwise)
• We do not have caballus horse and this is a big deal since RV is flush with horses. So anybody who has horses has the copyrights to RV.


Indic View:
OIT is about Indians going out to other lands quite like they do today for perhaps the same reasons and this movement has been over very very long periods of time, chronology being now mostly lost except for some Genetic evidence. Here I do explain in some sketchy way the proposals and premise of genetics. So much of the astronomical observations in MBH that I know of I do try to tell to the people. If people ask me anything else I do try my best to explain it to them from OIT-POV as well as AIT-POV.


Guess what, without exception all reject the Western view. And I admit I am yet to present this to a south Indian.

I believe quite a few of our members are getting worked up with a presumed image of the mango Indian. It is true, that a lot of educated Indians do believe in the ‘west is best’. I also believe that a lot of really smart and an even bigger population of mango Indians read all the western stuff only to pass exams and then they just revert back to the ‘India is the biggest bestest oldest civilization’ thingy. Pushing the western agenda is more often than not the preoccupation of a small but vocal/established minority. For the lay Indian if there is any problem then it is more of information flow from the better exposed set to the huge majority with less exposure of true face of west.

I would suggest people to try out some such exercise before forming their views on how moronic Indians are.

[shiv]

Re Shiv

I Am trying to absorb all your posts over 100 pages. Can u kindly give your timeline, so that I can connect your posts? For instance-

Saraswati
Yamuna
Harappa 2000BC
Sanskrit xxxBC
Rigveda 1000BC
Ramyana 500BC
Mahabarta xxxBC
Buddha etc

I have no timelines other than what is published and openly available. Saraswati and Yamuna you will have to look up.

Harappa is known to have existed up to 1900 BC - maybe 2500 BC to 1900 BC
Written Sanskrit was first seen after 300 BC. 150 AD was one date quoted here.
Rig Veda no date available, but dated by cunning linguists from 1200 BC to 900 BC.
Ramayana and Mahabharata I have no dates
Buddha: Before 300 BC
Horse domestication:

• Google: 9000 BC Arabia
  Linguist/Archaeologists: around 4000 BC Central Asia
  Horse bones found in Gujarat in Indus Valley/Saraswati associated remains 2000 BC.

Earliest wheel

• Google: 7500 TO 6000 BC earliest wheel remains found
  Linguists/Archaeologists: 4000 BC
  Wheeled toys in Indus Valley Civilization: 2300 BC

Horses and chariots in human graves

• Central Asia: hundreds after 3600 BC
  China dozens ?? BC
  India: Zero.
  Swat, Shitistan: at least one grave with horse remains from around 1600 BC (IIRC). No chariot
  Horse and chariot burials in Rig Veda: Zero

Percentage mix of non Indo-European language:

• Greek: maybe more than 33%
  German: 25%
  Germanic languages: 60% (or more - need to check)
  Sanskrit: 2-4%

Why are horses mentioned in Rig Veda but few horse remains in India?

• Cunning Linguists say that the Rig Veda people of 1200 tp 900 BC are singing songs about their pastoral life in central Asia steppe in 2000 BC

Proof of this:

• Cunning linguists say that Rig Veda mentions funerals of king with horse burial, and Rig Veda, Yajur Veda and Shatapatha Brahmana mention three story horse and chariot grave design exactly like Central Asia. This is utter bullshit.

Date of Rig Veda:

• Cunning linguists have given the date 1200 BC to 900 BC with no proof
  Rig Veda: no dates mentioned

[RajeshA]

Seeing the way bluffs have been propagated to cook up entire histories I have now stopped trusting most of the work that was done between 1800 and 1950 and I think that a thorough reassessment and revalidation needs to be done about decipherment and accuracy of decipherment of old texts and how phonology was assigned to unknown scripts. There have been so many bluffs that I simply don't trust what this bunch say any more.

In Europe there is the Renaissance (13th-15th century), the Reformation (1517-1559), the Age of Enlightenment (1650-1804), etc. Not to forget the Age of Colonialism and Slavery!

But this 1800 - 1950 time-span should also be given a fitting name! Something like:

1. Age of Cultural Loot
2. Age of Academic Racism
3. Age of Fallacious Scholarship
4. etc.

More proposals are welcome!

Age of cultural looting and academic racism?

Sounds like a wonderful start to a new proposal for a new branch of study in universities!

'Studies on European Age of Cultural Looting and Academic Racism'

The Europeans are really good at looking for the weak spot of other civilizations, the crucial part, their heart, and attacking them there!

Sometimes we often misunderstand what are the strong and weak points of the Western Civilization, we often can't see where is their heart?

This is important, because if this becomes visible, all start making it into a target. Consider the story of the demon whose heart was in a bird on a far off island! Europeans understood that the shield of Indian Civilization is in our scriptures, our Dharma, in Sanskrit, in the Brahmins (the keepers of the faith), and this has been a process of undermining spanning over two centuries.

So what is the strong suit of Europe. Many consider it Christianity. I believe it is on the one hand an identifier but it is mostly a vehicle to undermining other civilizations. It is a tool of Soft Power. Far more insidious is Western Universalism, Christianity being simply one of the various strategies of Western Universalism. The foundation of Western Universalism is however laid in all this academic work that has been going on since over 3 centuries.

Rajiv Malhotra's focus has been on Christianity, but he has also dealt with other fields also.

It is all the literature that has been generated in the last two and a half centuries in Europe and the Americas, that has pushed for a world where everybody else is forced to see the world through European eyes only! Macaulayism is just one small tip of this iceberg, applicable more in the Indian context, but the agenda is much more ambitious.

Much of the literature generated in fields of anthropology, philosophy, theology, sociology, comparative and historical linguistics, race studies, world history, even archaeology, etc. all of it has ridden piggy back on the research in the natural sciences and technological advancements. It is the latter which has given an aura of invincibility and claim on objectivity to these other Humanities Studies, but they are basically still a den of Euro-centric racial worldview, where they play the role of subjects and the rest of the world plays the role of objects of study, and then the objects of study adopt the conclusions of these subjective observers as the truth about themselves.

They have placed our brains in a vat filled with Western Universalism. I don't even know if we can get out but study of Sanskrit and our ancient literature as well as making an effort to see Indian customs and culture through non-Western eyes and books, is the only way out I see.

But coming back to the heart of the demon, I think it lies in the Humanities Studies spanning over 3 centuries. Earlier on it was easy destroying knowledge as the Islamics well understood. One used to just torch all the libraries and kill all the learned men! Things have changed since then!

I think the accusations of Cultural Loot and Academic Racism are strong counter-attacks. It is like the fire of yesteryears. It destroys their claims of ownership to the culture and cultural artifacts they own and it destroys their claims to objectivity which is the foundation of any meaningful knowledge! And if one smears this accusation over the whole time-period of colonialism, it is a big bon-fire that we are alighting. It takes in not just a few selective books, but the whole damn age of the last 3 centuries, which allowed the Europeans to make the biggest push in the agenda of Western Universalism. Everything gets smeared with the accusation and becomes guilty until proven innocent!

No work of European scholarship can be believed anymore until it shows that it was not done with a mind dipped in racism.

Let's not forget what the Euros have done -

• they have attacked our nation's historical cohesion with AIT.
• they have attacked our nation's social cohesion with AIT (Dravidian and Dalit politics influenced by Western agenda).
• they have attacked our nation's cultural roots with Macaulayism, Christianism, Yuppieism and Western Universalism.
• they have attacked our nation's unity with Western-agenda drive Partition.
• they colonized us and made us die in famines

I think a big bonfire is a suitable response!

Euro: Here, take this Humanities Book!
Indo: It is filled with Cultural Loot and Academic Racism!
Euro: How do you know that?
Indo: It makes references to works done between 1800 and 1950!
Euro: So?
Indo: So it is based on the European Age of Cultural Loot and Academic Racism!
Euro: But you can't generalize it!
Indo: If it is from that age, it is all of Cultural Loot and Academic Racism! All Euros were like that onlee!
Euro: Wait a minute! How do you arrive at that?
Indo: Read Racist A, Racist B, Racist C from 1827, 1839 and 1851! You will know!
Euro: Okay, they did write some racist things but ...
Indo: All of them thought similarly. They were incapable of thinking objectively!
Euro: But Euro X was not racist!
Indo: Prove it! Show that he cared about other cultures and peoples!
Euro: Well he went to live with Indos and learned Sanskrit!
Indo: That is what I mean! He just did more Cultural Loot!
Euro: But he wrote nice things about you!
Indo: Only for disarming the Indos. For more Cultural Loot of course!
Euro: And what about Euro Y who went to Africa and helped little children there!
Indo: All to get money for her book! Besides that is also racism. She wanted to impose her Cultural superiority! Very Racist!
Euro: Uh ... I don't know what to say!
Indo: You Euros need to purge your racism. Best to do it by forgetting those earlier racist books! And starting anew! You don't need to remain racists for ever! May be then you can be objective and your research would have some value!
Euro: Uh!

[RajeshA]

I would suggest people to try out some such exercise before forming their views on how moronic Indians are.

Probably the reference was to mainly English-medium public school educated well-to-do Indians!

[shiv]

I would suggest people to try out some such exercise before forming their views on how moronic Indians are.

I hear you loud and clear ravi_g and I am not arguing. I was having a rant, and the rant said Indians are morons. But not in the way you have surmised. When given the right data, Indians will use that data wisely because Indians tend to be brutally honest.

Problem is the Indian logic extends to belief of western data as more accurate than Indian data if the western data is sourced from certain academic quarters in the west. This is Macaulay's legacy. But that is not all. 200 years of publications have inundated every available inch of information space with fake theories which have not been important enough to revise or reconfirm. With the west fighting deadly wars and rivalries from 1900 to about 1990, every collection of sociological/linguistic and historic data drew heavily from sources that existed in the 1800 to 1900 period. That data is huge. No one has bothered to check that data.

Forget about revalidating the Behistun transcriptions (which I believe is necessary) , Indians are themselves examples of what happens when a civilization gets too busy fighting survival wars rather than preserving social sciences. It is astounding that in 2012, we have educated Indians depending on Griffiths mid-1800s translations of the Rig Veda into English from a German original. Every Indian "respects" the Rig Veda, but when he looks for data he finds Griffiths. If you respect the hard work done by people n the 18th century and take their work as the truth, then you should not move beyond 1800s medicine or engineering. But in the case of languages, that seems to be perfectly fine.

The vedas are huge works. They are a lifetime's work even to learn and if they need to be translated at all, it needs to be done by cooperation of Indians in a culturally sensitive manner. Rig Veda 1.162 really does mention cutting and cooking a horse. It has a specific context. That context does not come through in any existing English translation. Random words and passages from a difficult to translate Rig veda have been misused and the entire country seems to take it lying down, searching desperately for answers.

We many not be morons, but we are babes in the wood n this game of dog eat dog.

If I was to be asked what to do about it the first thing I would say is to accuse linguists of misusing the Rig veda for their own ends. That is where the next layer of politics comes in - the Indian who does that gets accused of being a Hindu fundamentalist. And when educated Indians hear the words Hindu fundamentalist coming from the west, a significant percentage do not want that title. So bullshit wins.

[member_20317]

RajeshA ji, without putting it in so many words I would say West is aware of its extreme nakedness. While our people are unaware of even their own clothes.

And awareness will certainly win out in the long run. Awareness takes one on a whole journey of exploration and survival. West knows they have to cook up, ingest and serve the broth like hellish fast. Else if the Indics and other Asians get to know their own selves before that, then for the west …‘Kansas is going bye bye’.

This is where I personally see the opportunity. hellish fast pace implies mis-steps. It would serve our purpose better to not build up a top heavy edifice that can be pushed over easily, keep our narrative tagged to reality. Instead we should indulge in all kinds of attacks on the western impositions. They fight dirty we fight dirty.


Shivji, you are right about the establishment, and really relieved to know you have not completely written off the masses.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA ji, without putting it in so many words I would say West is aware of its extreme nakedness. While our people are unaware of even their own clothes.

ravi_g ji,

I don't really see West as naked. Western Civilization is today a knowledge civilization deriving its identity from the vast literary and entertainment works it has produced and the technological and political prowess it has established. Despite all this literature and even some Christian rooting, it is still vulnerable on the issue of roots and antiquity! Using their Aryan models they have tried to cover up this weakness, and through AIT they have tried to pass on their vulnerability to us, even though we are the last people on Earth who should be vulnerable on the question of roots and antiquity! But hey, they have still managed it!

I personally do not grudge the West their achievements, but they have constantly kicked my civilization in the nuts, and so a response is long due!

The West needs to accept their vulnerability as far roots and antiquity are concerned and learn to live with the fact that Indians seeded their civilization! That is just the truth! All evidence speaks for it!

However if they accept this truth, they will better appreciate what they have achieved since then!

[Arjun]

Rajiv Malhotra uses a concept called 'Moron Smriti' to good effect. That's the derogatory term he uses for the many well-meaning Hindus who misuse the 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam' doctrine to infer that one should run away from differences between religions or that all religions are ultimately the same.

The AIT debate could use something similar - addressed at the many, many 'well-meaning' Indians who come up with objections to discussing or learning about AIT on the grounds that this is all irrelevant, ancient history. And that India has other problems to be deal with today....Or that AIT or no-AIT conclusion is of no consequence to the future of the country.

Needs to be accompanied with a detailed case explaining why the debate is relevant and matters for ALL Indians.

[RajeshA]

Arjun ji,

as I see it, over the last 65 years we have tried to build new connective tissue which connects various Indians from all walks of life across the length and breadth of the country.

There is Indian Film Industry, Cricket, Central Government, Politics, external security challenges, economic interdependence, English language, CBSE, etc. We are in fact trying to build much of this connective tissue somewhat haphazardly, all in a very secular way. However the way we are building this, we are at the same time really trying to kill any connective tissue we had over the last many millennia.

They are making the case, that the old connective tissue, our Sanskriti, does not accept Islam in its midst and hence we need a new connective tissue. That may or may not be the case. But there is no guarantee that the new connective tissue and Islam can still find some agreement. So on the very shaky assumption that the Pseudo-Secularism and Islam are compatible, we have shown willingness to purge and burn all the old connective tissue through the length and breadth of the country and make way for the new ostensibly Islam-friendly connective tissue.

Then there is also the sales-pitch that the old connective tissue was defective, and the issue of caste comes up! But then even if it was, it was a later corruption that made it defective, and that could easily have been cured over 3-4 generations. The purge and burn is unnecessary!

Another sales-pitch is that the ancient connective tissue is in fact a foreign organism imposed on the natives (AIT), and thus does not deserve to be considered as a natural choice for national consolidation. And this they say, even as they push English as India's national operating system (NOS).

And this gives rise to an Army of AIT-Sepoys, and thus AIT-Nazis get willing partners even without paying too much!

If one takes away AIT, discards Western Universalism and pursue the social reforms with the right message, then except for our troublesome minority, all others would have a solid foundation of connective tissue, holding us together from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, from Kutch to Cam Ranh! for then we can use our Soft Power in true earnest!

[Prem Kumar]

If I was to be asked what to do about it the first thing I would say is to accuse linguists of misusing the Rig veda for their own ends. That is where the next layer of politics comes in - the Indian who does that gets accused of being a Hindu fundamentalist. And when educated Indians here the words Hindu fundamentalist coming from the west, a significant percentage do not want that title. So bullshit wins.

+1. I have been following this thread (or at least trying to keep pace) and consider it one of the most exciting threads right now, especially considering the paucity of information about LCA, Nirbhay etc

More seriously, one of the key elements to countering what's in the bolded section is to actually encourage the study of Rig Veda beyond the upper class Hindus. The day we have news like "Dalits want to take back Indian history" or Dalit scholars mastering the Rig Veda, the bolded argument will be mortally wounded. We need to keep pounding the message that Indian history is Hindu history and its antiquity/glory belongs as much to the Dalits & SCs as to anyone else. If we restrict the study of Vedas to only Brahmins, the others will feel alienated from our common history. When I was in school, the students who opted for Sanskrit as an elective were predominantly Brahmins. The non-Brahmins would typically gravitate towards Tamil. All of us implicitly knew this, even at that age. This needs to change and can only change by outreach programs initiated by upper-class Hindus.

[RajeshA]

{We need} to actually encourage the study of Rig Veda beyond the upper class Hindus. The day we have news like "Dalits want to take back Indian history" or Dalit scholars mastering the Rig Veda, the bolded argument will be mortally wounded. We need to keep pounding the message that Indian history is Hindu history and its antiquity/glory belongs as much to the Dalits & SCs as to anyone else. If we restrict the study of Vedas to only Brahmins, the others will feel alienated from our common history.
....
{This} can only change by outreach programs initiated by upper-class Hindus.

I agree completely with this sentiment!

[shiv]

When I was in school, the students who opted for Sanskrit as an elective were predominantly Brahmins. The non-Brahmins would typically gravitate towards Tamil. All of us implicitly knew this, even at that age. This needs to change and can only change by outreach programs initiated by upper-class Hindus.

There may be an easily explained and never mentioned sociological reason for this. Brahmins, at least in South India, have a tradition of Sanskrit that runs in the family. Many do learn bits and pieces of ancient texts and even the most ignorant Macaulayite Brahmin gets something instilled into him by the lifestyle and mixing with the extended family.

This fact is used by various quarters as proof of the AIT. Rajiv Malhotra needs to have a temple built for him for explaining how this came about. Heck if we can have temples for Silk Smitha, why not Rajiv Malhotra

[shiv]

really relieved to know you have not completely written off the masses.

But I am definitely worried about the masses. Maybe I should not worry. Civilization has a way of keeping a "substrate" alive even as it changes its appearance. But that is OT

[Prem Kumar]

We need to take a leaf out of what the King James Bible accomplished for Christianity. It was the single biggest factor in spreading the knowledge of the Bible among mango-Christians.

In addition to encouraging kids of all backgrounds to learn Sanskrit, we also need the Vedas translated in native Indian languages by Indian scholars of the non-Marxist variety. Offer free classes and Kathakalakshepam in temples in local languages

[Prem Kumar]

Agreed Shiv. Because of traditions like Upanayanam & even in the language used at home (where Brahmin households use a larger % of Sanskrit-borrowed words), most Brahmin kids are exposed to the language early and often.

Dont want to go OT, but rituals like the Upanayanam (sacred thread ceremony) need to be expanded to people of all castes, if we want to re-establish the true roots of the word Brahmin. This elitism-due-to-birth needs to go.

[SaiK]

Sanskrit in IT would help bridge the gap. When people feel by learning a language or a system, they are having a bright career, then they will automatically learn it. This is where languages fail to impress. jmt/ot

[vic]

Thanx Shiv for your effort at timeline. Actually am interested only in "your" interpretation, so we can leave cunning wolves out. It is not adequate to say AIT is wrong but we must offer a alternative definitive timeline of OIT.

A question- if Rigveda is before Harappa then why no Sanskrit in Harappa?

Layman question- why not have a simple theory- as Harappa was dis-integrating due to climate change then it evolved into Vedic culture?

The astrological observations in old texts - could they have been inserted later to backdate them by willy sdre Brahmins?

[member_22872]

The astrological observations in old texts - could they have been inserted later to backdate them by willy sdre Brahmins?

vic ji, to prove what? it is not just easy as pressing insert/delete button, the star positions need to be there, else errors wouldl show up in other calculations. You also need motivation to do it. Right now we are interested in retro-calculations to understand the veracity of AIT claims, but way back in time, why would anyone change anything? and where is any end to this madness of claiming deleting/inserting data, then the whole work can be become untrustworthy, OIT people can claim anything that is inconvenient as something manipulated and AIT can claim the same thing as this is actually this is one of their claims. Such claims can muddle the waters so much that none of the scriptures can be trusted. Where is any end to such claims.

And also one can verify and check the star/planetary data as mentioned in other works, and errors if introduced due to such manipulation would show up. So claiming that the astrological data is inserted later is ridiculous.

[ramana]

There can be simple possibility for the lack of horse sites, not just in India but across the region, the numbers are few and far between. It is possible that the population of horses was quite low in the so called Neolithic age.

Also horses and cattle fall to the tropical foot and mouth disease for which preventive measures were found only in the 19th century. Time and again traveller accounts tell us of India importing horses as they die off very quickly.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-and-mouth_disease

[nandakumar]

Agreed Shiv. Because of traditions like Upanayanam & even in the language used at home (where Brahmin households use a larger % of Sanskrit-borrowed words), most Brahmin kids are exposed to the language early and often.

Dont want to go OT, but rituals like the Upanayanam (sacred thread ceremony) need to be expanded to people of all castes, if we want to re-establish the true roots of the word Brahmin. This elitism-due-to-birth needs to go.

I am an ignoramus in these aspects. But this I must mention. The notion that only Brahmins wear sacred thread is simply not true. At least in Tamil Nadu. My earliest impression of a non brahmin wearing a thread is that of our carpenter who came to make a gate 50 years ago at our house. He wore it and in my opinion quite proudly too. Even today my washerwoman's husband who does the pressing of clothes sports a sacred thread! With Vaishnavite namam to boot!

[Prem Kumar]

Nandakumar: I didnt know this. Thanks for sharing.

[member_22872]

From link sent to ramana garu through email:
http://mahaperiyavaa.wordpress.com/2012 ... amamurthy/

Code: Select all

Horse metaphor from Rig vedha as explained by Mahaperiyava

It appears the interview is in Tamil. Could anyone kindly watch the video and post relevant observations of Sri Mahaperiyava on the metaphor of horses in Rg Veda? this is as authoritative as it can get in my opinion. so please help.

[Abhibhushan]

Reading this thread over the past few weeks has generated a visualization in my mind regarding Sanskrit. It runs like this:

Our culture and civilization is like the green jungle behind our house. It has wonderful trees and shrubbery, vines and medicinal plants. It provides us with fruits and fuel, medicine and water-management, cool air and fragrance.

We are peace loving people. In the past, intruders have broken into our house. However our wealth and culture was so vast that the intruders have got assimilated and and have become part of the household. Unfortunately, the last intruder was from a far-away land and was of a different temperament. His only aim was to loot our wealth. He realized that we cannot be subdued unless the connection to our cultural forest was denied to us. So he executed a series of hostile actions. He forbade us from going into the forest. He introduces a lot of noxious shrubs that made it difficult for our children to go into the forest. We struggled and dislodged his occupation of the house after three hundred years. But for the last century and a half our children have lost touch with our forest. The fruits, the medicines, the water from the streams, the fragrance and the cool breeze are now all beyond our reach.

The queen of our forest was a tree named Sanskrit. The intruder made special efforts to make us fearful of this tree. We started to believe that the breeze of this tree will turn our children into communal murderers. At the same time, our intruders themselves were fascinated by the beauty of this tree. They picked up a small sapling from the undergrowth, put it in a small tub and grew a miniaturized bonsai model of the tree that they hang outside their temple, initially at Berlin, then at Cambridge and now at a place named Harvard. The stunted tree confined to a small bowl cannot grow. It has no fruits, no flower, no fragrance, no shade, no breeze.

We need to reclaim our forest. Clear the undergrowth of toxic shrubbery and make it our dwelling place once again. We need to take away their bonsai sanskrit from them, break the bowl and replant it in our own yard where its roots can grow again.

[shiv]

Thanx Shiv for your effort at timeline. Actually am interested only in "your" interpretation, so we can leave cunning wolves out. It is not adequate to say AIT is wrong but we must offer a alternative definitive timeline of OIT.

My viewpoint

1. If you go by available evidence alone AIT in its current form is wrong. So 1200 to 900 BC is wrong
2. If you go by available evidence Sanskrit and therefore Rig Veda may be older OR younger than 1200 to 900 BC
3. There was some language in India at the time of Harappa. It may have been a Prakrit/s related to Sanskrit. Sanskrit itself may be much older. A date of Sanskrit before 3000 BC cannot be ruled out on linguistic grounds alone.
4. Why 3000 BC? Why not 300 BC for Sanskrit and Rig Veda? After all there is proof for the latter.

• There is no mention of cities in Rig Veda. One explanation is that Rig Veda pre-dates cities.
• Horse evidence is available in Gujarat from 2000 BC, which is 1000 km from western most rivers of Indus where Aryans are supposed to have come in 1200 BC. It took them 800 years to come 2000 km from steppes so it is reasonable to assume it must have taken another 400 to reach Gujarat. So horse in Gujarat should not be older than 800 BC. But the horse evidence is actually 2000 BC. That means if there were Aryan invaders/migrants they must have reached Indus 400 years before 2000 BC - that is 2400 BC. They must have left steppes 800 years before, that is 3200 BC. This fits in well with the timeline of horse and chariots n steppe (3600 BC). But it also means that the language, Indo-Aryan that became Sanskrit was present in the Indus area smack bang in the middle of Indus valley civilization in 2400 BC. That makes the Indus valley language 600 years older than the oldest language evidence of Mycenaean Greek of 1800 BC and as old as the 2500 BC date of PIE. So you tell me which language went where and in what direction?
• When invaders bring one language into an area where people have a different language, the new language may be imposed by ruling decree, but many local words and terms are borrowed. These borrowed terms show up as a substrate. Sanskrit has virtually no substrate. This could happen either because Sanskrit and its earlier Prakrits were completely created in India. or it could be that Indo European languages came to India very long ago, Maybe 9000 BC or 6000 BC whenever. And later migrants to India also came from the same Indo European speaking areas bringing with them pretty much the same Indo European language or a sister language. So both substrate language and superstrate language could be Indo-European. That would make he Indo European language very old in India - much much much older than the 2500 BC of PIE
• It is alleged that the people who first domesticated the horse were also the first to make chariots (4000-3600 BC) and that they were also the first to coin words for all this. They allegedly spoke PIE and that PIE later became all Indo European languages as these same people migrated on their horses and chariots imposing and introducing their langauge wherever they went. And the went to Iran by 1500 BC and to India in 1200 BC, introducing horse, wheel, wagon and chariot and associated words to these areas. But there is evidence of wheel, wagon and chariot in the Indus Valley civilization in 2300 BC, more than one thousand years before the AIT linguist derived date of 1200 BC for introduction of wheel and chariot (and associated words) to India. These Indus Valley/Harappa people must have had a language that had words for wheel and other wagon words. But all languages in India have the same wheel and wagon words. Either all Indians forgot their old words for wheel and wagon by 1900 BC and picked up the new words brought in by 1200 BC, or Indo-European was already present in Indus valley by 2300 BC. The latter is more likely. If new words for horse, wheel and chariot were learned by Indians in 1200 BC, they still had 2000 km to migrate before reaching Bengal. That would have taken them to 400 BC. The Magadha empire of 500 BC in Bengal/Bihar was already speaking Prakrit and Sanskrit by then. So it is unlikely that the words for body parts, horse and wheel along with Sanskrit reached Magadha only in 400 BC.The earlier date is the likely one

In conclusion
1. The linguistic dating of Indo European in india 1200 BC to 900 BC is wrong. The whole migration sequence in Iran, Afghanistan and India is likely fake. It is based on assumptions and faked evidence
2. Indo European languages in India likely pre dated the Indus valley civilization.
3. Evidence from Avesta, the Rig veda and the Mitanni texts could mean language out of India rather than into India.
4. With currently available evidence I cannot claim that language spread from India to Greece. But I am not ruling it out.

[shiv]

Agreed Shiv. Because of traditions like Upanayanam & even in the language used at home (where Brahmin households use a larger % of Sanskrit-borrowed words), most Brahmin kids are exposed to the language early and often.

Dont want to go OT, but rituals like the Upanayanam (sacred thread ceremony) need to be expanded to people of all castes, if we want to re-establish the true roots of the word Brahmin. This elitism-due-to-birth needs to go.

I am an ignoramus in these aspects. But this I must mention. The notion that only Brahmins wear sacred thread is simply not true. At least in Tamil Nadu. My earliest impression of a non brahmin wearing a thread is that of our carpenter who came to make a gate 50 years ago at our house. He wore it and in my opinion quite proudly too. Even today my washerwoman's husband who does the pressing of clothes sports a sacred thread! With Vaishnavite namam to boot!

Vysya Shettys and Lingayats of Karnataka also wear the thread. Vysya Shettys also have an upanayana ceremony.

[Nilesh Oak]

A question- if Rigveda is before Harappa then why no Sanskrit in Harappa?

Vic, as an intellectual exercise try the following,

What language is in Harappa (SSVC)? Once we know it, you can ask your question, assuming still valid.

Layman question- why not have a simple theory- as Harappa was dis-integrating due to climate change then it evolved into Vedic culture?

Ok. Good theory. But that is just the beginning. Now start working. Compute consequences and then start testing against available evidences.

The astrological observations in old texts - could they have been inserted later to backdate them by willy sdre Brahmins?

Another excellent theory. Pick any random astronomy (not astrology)observations from old tests. Try to figure out when it might have been inserted, by whom and why? First, you will realize how much of a hard work it is to figure this out, even if one is successful. In addition, you will realize, assuming you truly understand the significance/consequences of such observation, what a genius this 'willy sdre Brahmin' had to be in order to be so cunning and brilliant.

You homework assignment is ready and weekend begins in less than 48 hours.

[Nilesh Oak]

IVysya Shettys and Lingayats of Karnataka also wear the thread. Vysya Shettys also have an upanayana ceremony.

Kshatriya and Vaishya in Maharashtra (not all subcasts may do it) also perform Upanayana cermony.

going back to ancient India...at least in Ramayana time, Ladies used to perform 'pristley duties'. There are also references to Kausalya, Sita doing Sandhya (a ceremony/ritual performed by those who have gone through upanayan ceremony).

That covers Kshatriya (royalty but non-Brahmin in contemporary sense) women (not just men) going through Upanayana ceremony.

[ShyamSP]

Agreed Shiv. Because of traditions like Upanayanam & even in the language used at home (where Brahmin households use a larger % of Sanskrit-borrowed words), most Brahmin kids are exposed to the language early and often.

Dont want to go OT, but rituals like the Upanayanam (sacred thread ceremony) need to be expanded to people of all castes, if we want to re-establish the true roots of the word Brahmin. This elitism-due-to-birth needs to go.

I am an ignoramus in these aspects. But this I must mention. The notion that only Brahmins wear sacred thread is simply not true. At least in Tamil Nadu. My earliest impression of a non brahmin wearing a thread is that of our carpenter who came to make a gate 50 years ago at our house. He wore it and in my opinion quite proudly too. Even today my washerwoman's husband who does the pressing of clothes sports a sacred thread! With Vaishnavite namam to boot!

In AP, all specialized castes wear sacred thread (Jandhyamu) after children are initiated into their profession. BC castes do this. Sali castes such as Carpenter (Kamsali or Vishwa Brahmana) caste do wear it in AP too. Barbar caste (Mangali or Nayi Brahmana) do to as they learn music instruments. Other upper castes do too depending on rites they perform. But as for wearing continuously only priest caste definitely and other skilled professional castes do.

[shiv]

A question- if Rigveda is before Harappa then why no Sanskrit in Harappa?

If not Sanskrit what language was used? What proof exists of the other language? Was it Indo European or not Indo-European? Vedic style fire altars have been found in Saraswathi-Sindhu/Harappa remains

Layman question- why not have a simple theory- as Harappa was dis-integrating due to climate change then it evolved into Vedic culture?

This is same as AIT. Harappa had no known language. After Harappa horses, wheels and language came from Central asia. I have already stated my objections to this in detail

The astrological observations in old texts - could they have been inserted later to backdate them by willy sdre Brahmins?

Yes they could have been inserted later. Even horses and chariots could have been inserted later to fake things. The entire philosophy may be fake. Vedas could be fake texts from 600 AD or even from 1700 AD faked by SDREs. That is a viewpoint that one is allowed to have. But it is not my viewpoint.

[member_22872]

at least in Ramayana time, Ladies used to perform 'pristley duties'.

Nilesh ji, in many idols Parvati too is depicted as wearing sacred thread like in this one.

[ramana]

vic, Recall the Devnagari script in which Sanskrit is written is relatively modern by Harappa standards. How do we know that Harappan was not Sanskrit but written in non-Devnagari script?