Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Aug 2012 22:56

Is/was Lande the same script as Brahmi? I recall my father and gradfather were familiar with this script.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 31 Aug 2012 02:15

For Indus script, a link Indus script designed with care, say TIFR researchers

“an intellectual exercise of great significance”
..
intellectually creative and considerable time and effort went into designing it.
..
The Indus civilisation was spread over an area of about a million square kilometres and yet, the sign list over the entire civilisation seems to be the same indicating that the signs, their meaning and their usage were agreed upon by people with large physical separation.
..
154 basic signs (which cannot be decomposed further into simpler signs) and 263 composite signs
..
composite signs were not shorthand and that the signs have been designed with care. They were not meant for brevity or for saving writing space but seem to have some other function. They generated a new meaning altogether. Combining signs with other signs or modifiers seems to have been a practice known to all sites
..
special emphasis on symmetry with over 60 per cent of the signs .. for about 700 years. Hence the understanding of Indus signs and their meaning must have been robust and yet versatile

All these have been part and parcel of Indian civilization.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Aug 2012 04:45

shiv wrote:
There is no mention of cities in Rig Veda. One explanation is that Rig Veda pre-dates cities.

If you go by what the Rig Veda mentions, then it mentions 100-oared ships. Which of course are a common sight in the steppes of Central Asia. And on Kocchar's Helmand/Haravaiti rivers in Afghanistan.

I think the Rg Vedics knew of what is now called the Arabian Sea, where the Sindhu and the Saraswati emptied into the sea.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 31 Aug 2012 05:47

Is the Helmand/Haravaiti river of Kocchar also accompanied by the the other rivers as described in RV namely, Indus, Ganges, Yamuna, etc. ? Kocchar needs to show presence of these rivers too in Afghanistan.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Aug 2012 05:56

let us take some ancient engineering thoughts.
trivia: name the ancient dam and the river name?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2012 07:35

While I am at it. let me point out further glaring flaws in the logic used in the construction of the Aryan invasion/migration theory.

All Indo-European languages from India to Western Europe share cognate words for body parts (eg leg, eye, mouth) close relatives (eg father, mother, brother) and, as the linguists point out, words for cow, horse, wheel and wagon. These shared words indicate that all Indo-European languages share a common root which existed at a time when all the words for body part, relatives, cow and horse were coined. This is perfectly logical and it is IMO not possible to disagree with this attractive hypothesis.

How to put a timeline on this? How do you decide which words were coined earlier or later?

Obviously body parts and relatives have been known to man as long as humans have existed. It is likely that words for these were coined first. I would put a date for these words as "before 10,000 BC" because cattle were first known to be domesticated around 10,000 BC

Cattle have been known for at least 10,000 years. The earliest domestication may have occurred in India. Clearly a word for cow is likely to have existed for 10,000 years in India

The date of horse domestication is said to be 4000 BC and the date for wheel around the same time - both in Central Asia. The dates for both these events can be challenged simply by Googling. There are wheel finds as far back as 7500 BC and possible horse domestication as far back as 9000 BC.

Now look at these facts individually:
1. If common words exist in Indo European languages for body parts and relatives, it is likely that those words are more than 10,000 years old. So a common ancestor for IE must have existed earlier than 10,000 years ago
2. IE languages have a common word for Cow. That means the common language existed 6000 years ago
3. Assuming horse and wheel dates are correct, the same common language existed 4000 years ago.

It is after this point that the linguists Aryan migration theory falls apart.

If you accept the linguists explanation they are saying that a small band of people in central Asia had a common set of words for body parts, relatives, cow and horse. But it was the horse that made them spread all over the world giving their words to everyone else. Please examine what this means

It means that humans in India from before 10,000 BC to 1200 BC had their own unique non Indo European words for body parts and cow and they had even domesticated the cow. Then suddenly, because the horse came to India in 1200 BC, people all ovr Indian from Indus in the West to Bengal 2000 km away simply forgot words that were used all over the subcontinent for 10,000 years and started uniformly using the Indo-European words that the horsemen brought leaving no discernible trace of any earlier non IE words for cow and body parts and adopted the IE words from steppe completely.

I think linguists don't know and don't care about the size of India. They are happy to simply say that language went there in 1200 BC and became everyone's language over an area as big as central Asia itself and everyone in this area simply gave up words for father, mother, brother, leg, hand, cow etc which had been used for 10,000 years and adopted the Central Asian language in 1200 BC. A language that took 2400 years to spread from Central Asian date of horse domestication to India, suddenly became the only language in Northern India as well a becoming a significant contributor language in South India in just 800 years after it arrived in Panjab, wiping out all trace of earlier language in North India but not wiping out language in South India, but simply mixing there.

What is the likelihood of this having occurred?

The faking derives from the dating. Linguists have simply decided to pick on the horse and wheel and use the horse and wheel findings of central Asia to decide that the language originated there on those dates. There is a double likelihood of error here. Fixing the language and fixing its date. It is more likely that cow and horse and wheel are concepts that go back to well before 1200 BC in India. Considering that wheel evidence exists in India from 2300 BC and horse from 2000 BC. the likelihood of an Indo-European language (Prakrit) with common words for body parts, relatives, cow and horse having existed in India from before 2500 BC is high. Body parts and cow are known for 10,000 years. Dating Rig Veda to 1200 BC on basis of horse has been done only to suit a theory of language origin in steppe.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Aug 2012 07:57

Shiv,

1. Spoked wheel, not wheel is the invention that is supposedly contemporaneous with the horse domestication.

E.g, this is an early wheel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ur_chariot.jpg

Harappan wheels:
http://harappa.drupalgardens.com/conten ... vilization
Look at the PDF on that site.

-Arun

2. Yes, the missing traces of the previous language that the Vedics supposedly displaced - non-existent. The 4% figure of non-IE words in the 10,000 word vocabulary of the Rg Veda is I think the estimate of Witzel's guru, Kuiper(?). Their claim is that 4% is the trace of the missing language. Hittite, Greek spread into much smaller areas and populations though, and acquired much more non-IE detritus.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2012 08:34

A_Gupta wrote:Shiv,

1. Spoked wheel, not wheel is the invention that is supposedly contemporaneous with the horse domestication.

Yes . I realize that. In fact this makes the AIT dating even more inconsistent because it increases the time gap between the coining of words for body parts and cow and alleges that the entire Indian subcontinent had different (Non IE/pre-IE) words for body parts and cow until after 1200 BC. And suddenly IE has spread uniformly all over India including significant penetration into South India. For Europe, the spread of horse and wheel along with language is explained in an easy to believe step by step manner.

By 3600 BC horse and wheel burials exist all over Central Asia (evidence exists). These people spoke PIE (no evidence exists). From 2500 BC PIE and spoked wheel started spreading. Mycenaean Greek in 1800 BC and Sanskrit in 1200 BC

But the words for cow, wheel and axle in India surely pre date the 1200 BC date given to India The idea that language waited in central Asia for spokes to develop is a convenient assumption that has to make a whole lot of other equally convenient assumptions to make it credible. One of the most glaring inconsistencies is the idea that a culture that had a solid wheeled cart and an ox or donkey tied to a cart in 3500 BC would not travel, but would wait 1000 years for spokes to be invented before spreading. Spokes may be better for battle, but are not a pre requisite for long distance travel. In fact it can be argued that a heavy, single piece solid wheel is more durable over long distances than a spoked one, even if overall payload carried per cart is smaller. Even if words for wheel and horse came from some unknown common language, the words are more likely to have spread soon after mobility got better with cattle harnessing to carts.

What this means is that it puts the central Asia origin and dates of language in doubt. Once the central Asia origin is in doubt, the whole question of where and when the common root origin of IE languages gets thrown open.

In fact even the idea that there was "one common point of origin" may be wrong. The language may have developed by trade and exchange between distant geographic locations 1000 or 1500 km apart, which were definitely not insurmountable distances even 2500 years ago.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Aug 2012 09:48

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:
There is no mention of cities in Rig Veda. One explanation is that Rig Veda pre-dates cities.

If you go by what the Rig Veda mentions, then it mentions 100-oared ships. Which of course are a common sight in the steppes of Central Asia. And on Kocchar's Helmand/Haravaiti rivers in Afghanistan.I think the Rg Vedics knew of what is now called the Arabian Sea, where the Sindhu and the Saraswati emptied into the sea.

Bet those small 100 oared ships could not carry one single Aryan horse from (Oman) Arabian to Indian shore.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Aug 2012 09:53

RajeshA wrote:If one takes away AIT, discards Western Universalism and pursue the social reforms with the right message, then except for our troublesome minority, all others would have a solid foundation of connective tissue, holding us together from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, from Kutch to Cam Ranh! for then we can use our Soft Power in true earnest!

RajeshA ji, while your argument is valid and powerful - there is another one that is equally key...that's the impact on domestic innovation and competitive ability to stand up to the best of Western & Sinic civilizations.

Western Renaissance and Enlightenment were primarily driven by rediscovery of the classical heritage of Greece - and based on the West's false appropriation of Greece as a key pillar of 'Western civilization'. Notwithstanding economic growth over the last two decades, today's India is far from matching up to the innovation / competitive capabilities of either current-day West or China. That's despite having a classical philosophy and science heritage in Sanskrit that far surpasses that of the Greeks. There's no modern-day equivalent in Indian academia or innovation comparable to the enlightenment of the West. Simply put - Indians have yet to take full ownership of its own true classical heritage, whereas the West went full steam ahead to falsely take ownership of stolen scientific credentials.

The potential impact of large scale academic interest in indigenous models based on classical Indian science - will be huge for Indian competitiveness. Not just in social sciences, but very much in the natural sciences as well. The West, through its pushing of fake theories like AIT, is a primary reason for India being boxed in - & India's army of sepoy-morons are falling for it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2012 10:31

The more I dig into the subejct, the more I find that all the arguments I have used have all come before from others, except one aspect.

Most people seem to have been making points against the "Invasionsists". But as I stated a couple of times before, there is something that goes a little beyond "absence of evidece of invasion". By that I mean, what language/languages existed in India before the 1200 BC date given by the invasionist which we can now take as being wrong?

Everything that I can see points to some sort of "ancient Indo European" language. The knowledge of the concept of spokes on wheels in Harappa in 2000 BC taken with the near simultaneous occurrence of spokee wheels 2000 km away in Andronovo suggests that spoked wheels may have become well known and widespread long before 2000 BC. That idea would favor the possibility of an old Indo-European langauge in India that pre dates 2000 BC. It also fits in with the idea of a pre-city life Rig veda and a sanskrit/proto sanskrit/prakrit that dates to a period that is before 2500 BC.

What this does is to question all the assumptions made about spread of language.

If you say an Indo European language existed in India from say 2500 BC to 2000 BC as evidenced by horse and spoked wheel findings and common IE terminiology, what does that do to theories about Tocharian, Avestan (1200 BC), Old Persian, the Mitanni texts (1500 BC) and Ancient Greek (1800 BC). The entire sequence will need a rethink.

It could just mean that an Indo European language was spoken over a vast area from North India to Iran, to Turkey and Greece in the 2500 to 2000 BC era. Considering that agriculture, cattle and horse all came well before that date and trade between those areas existed, it is not at all inconceivable that this might have been the case. Which direction the language came from or went cannot be concluded from this alone. If such a huge common language area existed any migrations causing mixing of genes would say nothing about the language, since the whole area spoke Indo-European.

If anyone has to make up any AIT or OIT language theories they are most likely in the period prior to 2500 BC, and not starting after 2000 BC in central Asia as claimed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2012 10:58

Arjun wrote: Simply put - Indians have yet to take full ownership of its own true classical heritage, whereas the West went full steam ahead to falsely take ownership of stolen scientific credentials.

The potential impact of large scale academic interest in indigenous models based on classical Indian science - will be huge for Indian competitiveness. Not just in social sciences, but very much in the natural sciences as well. The West, through its pushing of fake theories like AIT, is a primary reason for India being boxed in - & India's army of sepoy-morons are falling for it.

If Rajesh is willing and Admins agree to archive this thread, I am willing to lay down the framework for discussing the origins of Sanskrit and Indo-European languages from an India-Centric viewpoint in a new iteration 2 of this thread.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 31 Aug 2012 11:02

When the word 'Europe' was first invented and used ! How old is the word. What was the geographic limits, and how many times it has changed.

Indo is very old, how and when Europe started tagging along and got hold of Indo.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 31 Aug 2012 11:29

The Etymology of word Europe is so uncertain:

The name of Europa is of uncertain etymology.[23] One theory suggests that it is derived from the Greek εὐρύς (eurus), meaning "wide, broad"[24] and ὤψ/ὠπ-/ὀπτ- (ōps/ōp-/opt-), meaning "eye, face, countenance",[25] hence Eurṓpē, "wide-gazing", "broad of aspect" (compare with glaukōpis (γλαυκῶπις 'grey-eyed') Athena or boōpis (βοὠπις 'ox-eyed') Hera). Broad has been an epithet of Earth itself in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European religion.[26] Another theory suggests that it is based on a Semitic word such as the Akkadian erebu meaning "to go down, set" (cf. Occident),[27] cognate to Phoenician 'ereb "evening; west" and Arabic Maghreb, Hebrew ma'ariv (see also Erebus, PIE *h1regʷos, "darkness"). However, M. L. West states that "phonologically, the match between Europa's name and any form of the Semitic word is very poor".[28]

Most major world languages use words derived from "Europa" to refer to the "continent" (peninsula). Chinese, for example, uses the word Ōuzhōu (歐洲); this term is also used by the European Union in Japanese-language diplomatic relations, despite the katakana Yōroppa (ヨーロッパ?) being more commonly used. However, in some Turkic languages the originally Persian name Frangistan (land of the Franks) is used casually in referring to much of Europe, besides official names such as Avrupa or Evropa.[29]

Till i found this, i was of the opinion that the word Europe had firm roots in PIE languages! They are not even sure about the Word how can they be so sure about PIE?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 31 Aug 2012 11:55

Indophobia

Contemporary societal Indophobia

Contemporary Indophobia has risen in the western world, particularly the United States, on account of the rise of the Indian American community and the increase in offshoring of white-collar jobs to India by American multinational corporations.[20] Societal prejudices against South Asians in the west manifest through instances of intimidation and harassment...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indophobia

We are dreaded by so many! So theories are cooked up to dilute it...

***

Looks all the jugglery of PIE, AMT, Andatolia is driven by this phobia deeply set inside the minds of certain people whose 'business' is threatened. (Added later) Also seems that the efforts are well organized, integrated, well funded, ill intentioned and have specific target in mind. Seeing the writing on the wall loud and clear that things are going to change they way they 'live' and 'dont allow others to live' if Indian tide is not contained...

Indomaniacs are responsible for this phobia (!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indomania

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 31 Aug 2012 13:37

Looking at the efforts by halfwitz class to denigrate India and denying all heritage, the purpose is clear.

It is not to find the roots they are pulling out various theories, the purpose is to make India insignificant, because rising clout of India in certain disciplines across the world is not acceptable to halfwitz group and their mentors, supporters and financiers. Looks there is nothing academic about their efforts.

The machinery to carry out the job is well oiled, well supported and very well financed.

***

Learnt Mr Harvard was also into smuggling manuscripts !!

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Aug 2012 14:15

Jhujar wrote:Is/was Lande the same script as Brahmi? I recall my father and gradfather were familiar with this script.

Interesting that you refer to Lande, I was also going to do so. It is a secret written code language of trading class/es (Punjab?) which does not use any vowels. It is dying in this generation but almost all accounts used to be kept in this code language.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Aug 2012 14:33

shiv wrote:
Arjun wrote: Simply put - Indians have yet to take full ownership of its own true classical heritage, whereas the West went full steam ahead to falsely take ownership of stolen scientific credentials.

The potential impact of large scale academic interest in indigenous models based on classical Indian science - will be huge for Indian competitiveness. Not just in social sciences, but very much in the natural sciences as well. The West, through its pushing of fake theories like AIT, is a primary reason for India being boxed in - & India's army of sepoy-morons are falling for it.
If Rajesh is willing and Admins agree to archive this thread, I am willing to lay down the framework for discussing the origins of Sanskrit and Indo-European languages from an India-Centric viewpoint in a new iteration 2 of this thread.

shiv saar,

I have one concern.

This thread has been useful for both discussions and reference. Even the discussions are mostly useful for referencing. My aim was to use this thread to spread awareness on the subject, and am very glad that this thread has lived up to that.

If it is archived, those who have participated actively on this thread, would more or less know all that was discussed, but for those who have kept themselves on the sidelines till now or simply been lurkers, this thread would simply disappear from view.

I am not sure, but I have a hunch that the viewership of archived threads is pretty low compared to those which make the first page of the StratForum, which this thread normally seems to do!

I don't suppose it can be locked and made sticky! West Asia thread is already on page 180, so I guess long threads are acceptable as well.

In any case, it is up to the Admins, how they would like to have it.

JMTs

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2012 14:56

No let the thread be. We can carry on.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Aug 2012 15:08

Books for the Library

Those who wrote the Indian Antiquity

Publication Date: Apr 01, 2012
Author: Shantilal Nagar
Biographical dictionary of Ancient Indian Rsis- Based on Vedas, Upanisads Epics and Puranas (In 2 Volumes) [Amazon]

Description
India, from the time immemorial, has been known to be the land of religion where the Rsis or priestly institutions played a prominent role. The earliest sources of Indian religious history are said to be the Harappan culture and the Vedic literature. Both these sources have sufficient evidence of the religious activities carried out during such a remote past. But the priests were more conspicuous and dominant in the Vedic period as compared to the Harappan culture. The Vedic evidence points to strong priestly institutions, who could compose verses, not only for the daily worship of the people but also for the performing of homas or yajnas, besides other religious rites relating to the birth, marriage and death of the people in the contemporary society, some of which have come down to the present times.

The Rsis, though, were mostly the Brahmanas, but it was not exclusively so. The supreme knowledge was not confined to a particular caste and did not go by birth, but by inner worth achieved by a person with the performing of tapas. For instance, Ambarisa, Trasadasyu, Tryaruna Asvamedha, Purumilha and Ajamila were the royal Rsis. The women also had full religious rights and were known as Rsikas or Brahmavadins.

Of these Rosmasa, Lopamudra, Apala, Kadru, Visvavara and several others are quite well known. The Brahmavsdins were the products of educational discipline of brahmacarya, for which women were also eligible.

Interestingly, the study reveals that with the passage of time, the Rsis or Acsryas of the earlier times faded into oblivion and their places were taken by their sons or disciples, as would be evident from the fact that most of the Vedic Rsis are no more to be seen in the post Vedic period and those of that period are hardly found in the Upanisads, the Ramayana, the Mahabharata or the Puranas.

The accounts of the Rsis and the Rsikas in this work provide a graphic picture of their performance from the Vedic to the Puranic period, which has not been brought out so far and it would, surely, interest the readers as well as the research scholars to a considerable extent. The study also covers Yogacaryas, Sangitacaryas, Ayurvedacaryas and Dhanuvedacaryas and their performance during this period.
_____________________________________________

P.S.: All Western scholars should be envious of our Rishis: Our Rishis had the best hair!

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 31 Aug 2012 15:54

Our Rishis not only had best hair, best beard also.

Dressing was very minimal, no extra energy was consumed by them and they had always worked for humanity and welfare of all beings irrespective of any genre these beings belonged.

It will be very difficult for most of the modern western scholars to think like them or say this:

सर्वेपि सुखिनः सन्तु
सर्वे सन्तु निरामयाः
सर्वे भद्राणि पश्यन्तु
मा कश्चिद् दुःखभाग् भवेत्

This is real secular message to the world by our Risis

It takes lots of courage and conviction to wish
Everyone in the world Happiness, Auspiciousness and Health.

***

Or
Aano bhadra krtavo yantu vishwatah
"Let noble thoughts come to me from all directions"

Listen/Download
http://archive.org/details/AanoBhadraSuktam

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Aug 2012 16:41

Continuing from the Soma Discussion earlier,

here is a graph that suggests that Soma was a plant better known to ṛṣiṣis from the Western and Northern parts of the Indian Subcontinent - the Bhṛgus and the Kaśyapas.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Aug 2012 19:03

Maya People and their Connection to India

Actually this is something that keeps propping up with people saying Mayasura was from the Mayas, etc. It is fine and well if people wish to speculate. I just wanted here to point out a piece of archaeological find, I find interesting. I found this reference at a blog and followed the trail a bit.

The following is from a letter that was written to Nature Magazine on November 25, 1915 by one G. Elliot Smith.

He pointed out to that a Dr. Eduard Seler had in 1908 claimed that it was the image of an elephant, albeit a Pleistocene elephas columbi, but then two years later revised his opinion and claimed it was a tortoise. Even then people used to go to any lengths to do away with any hint that Indians could have had an influence.

The drawing originates from a Stele which was photographed by Alfred Percival Maudslay in Copan, Central America during an expedition there in 1883.

Here Maudlay gives a full report at an evening meeting!

Read at June 28, 1886
Exploration of the Ruins and Site of Copan, Central America: JStor

There was an accompanying book with a collection of photos taken during the expedition.

Published 1889-1902 by R. H. Porter and Dulau & Co., London
Author: Maudslay, Alfred Percival
Biologia Centrali-Americana, or, Contributions to the knowledge of the fauna and flora of Mexico and Central America

The Stele is in Volume 1, Plate 33

The drawing is from the top left corner!

So where did the knowledge of elephants come to the Mayas? Interesting query! Some amateur discussion here.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 31 Aug 2012 19:16

here is a graph that suggests that Soma was a plant better known to ṛṣiṣis from the Western and Northern parts of the Indian Subcontinent - the Bhṛgus and the Kaśyapas.

Rajesh ji, could you please post the image again, it doesn't show.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 31 Aug 2012 20:00

RajeshA wrote: So where did the knowledge of elephants come to the Mayas? Interesting query!

The entire South America including Mexico is very interesting. Few works do exists (P V Vartak, Chaman Lal and few others) and these need to be revised in the light of new researches.

I became interested in Mayan, Aztecs and Incas, long before my love affair with Archeo-Astronomy. Currently reading about Cuzco/Lake Titicaca. Heading there Dec 2013 (1 year 4 months from now).

Planning to visit Copan (Honduras) and Tikal (Guatemala) durign Spring 2013. Been to Mexico.. Tula, Teotiacuan, Chichen Itza, etc.

I realized that I must put forward chronology of Mahabharata and Ramayana first, before exploring South America for its connections with ancient India.

Now that RejeshA ji, you brought up the subject, here is just highlight of what to come.. may not be part of my book on Dating of Ramayana.. but this stuff is in the works too...

Known as candlebra of Andes, on North west coast of Paracas - Bay of Pisco, Peru (tentative plan to be there in Dec 2013 as well).

In Ramayana, Sugriva explain direction east, to search party going east - in search of Sita- and asks Vanara party to look for a structure, after crossing Kshir-udak (ocean)

त्रिशिराः काञ्चनः केतुस्तालस्तस्य महात्मनः |
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः || ४७||

पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत्त्रिदशेश्वरैः |
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः || ४८||

Compare description of first verse with picture above. Secon verse describes who built this , when and why!

(This discovery, in the context of Ramayana is that of Dr. P V Vartak, as far as I know). My contibution is not unlike that of squirrel (non Valimiki Ramayana versions) to Nala-setu (work of Vartak).

My contriubtion is to notice सवेदिका portion of the shlok. Notice square (vedi) at the bottom/base of this trident.
There is much much more exciting stuff realted to this, but for now, this will do.

member_23630 · Post by **member_23630** » 31 Aug 2012 20:45

Shiv wrote:Indo-European languages from India to Western Europe share cognate words for body parts (eg leg, eye, mouth) close relatives (eg father, mother, brother) and, as the linguists point out, words for cow, horse, wheel and wagon. These shared words indicate that all Indo-European languages share a common root which existed at a time when all the words for body part, relatives, cow and horse were coined. This is perfectly logical and it is IMO not possible to disagree with this attractive hypothesis.

Shiv Ji,
This is a reasonable post. At least ‘the other side’ logic is given a hearing.

So, maybe i will again dare to make few points. Btw, i did post some long ago and got indiscriminate trashing, and so, went back to lurking. Maybe this time it will be different.

Shiv wrote:It means that humans in India from before 10,000 BC to 1200 BC had their own unique non Indo European words for body parts and cow and they had even domesticated the cow. Then suddenly, because the horse came to India in 1200 BC, people all ovr Indian from Indus in the West to Bengal 2000 km away simply forgot words that were used all over the subcontinent for 10,000 years and started uniformly using the Indo-European words that the horsemen brought leaving no discernible trace of any earlier non IE words for cow and body parts and adopted the IE words from steppe completely.

Good question. What about the IVC people – about 5 million per Wiki(timeline is 3300 BCE to 300 BCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization
Did they not speak? I guess they would have had words for body parts, cow, etc. Their language is Dravidian/Munda/Nihali, not the IE family - all for those 5 million people.

In fact, IVC is the big elephant sitting the room that OIT is missing. One cannot simply pre-date RV before IVC, not just because of horse. And, even if 1 horse remains(rather, burial) is found in say 5000 BCE will not reconcile many other factors - few more finer points on horse itself(caballus or donkey, 34 or 36 ribs, with Bit or without bit), etc, etc. Then, the Iron/bronze Age timelines, IVC cities/ruins, language evolution, etc.

Quoting Witzel: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/%7Ewi ... VS-7-3.pdf

§ 3. Dates
An approximation to an absolute dating of Vedic texts, however, can be reached by the
following considerations:5

(1.) The gveda whose geographical horizon is limited to the Panjab and its
surroundings does not yet know of iron but only of the hard metal copper/bronze (W. Rau
1974, 1983; ayas = Avest. aiiah 'copper/bronze'). Since iron is only found later on in Vedic
texts (it is called, just as in Drav. *cir-umpu), the ''black metal'' (śyåma, ka ayas) and as
makes its appearance in S. Asia only by c. 1200 or 1000 BCE,6 the RV must be earlier than
that.7 The RV also does not know of large cities such as that of the Indus civilization but only
of ruins (armaka, Falk 1981) and of small forts (pur, Rau 1976). Therefore, it must be later
than the disintegration of the Indus cities in the Panjab, at c. 1900 BCE A good, possible date
ad quem would be that of the Mitanni documents of N. Iraq/Syria of c. 1400 BCE that
mention the gvedic gods and some other Old IA words (however, in a form slightly
preceding that of the RV).8

(2.) The Mantra language texts (AV etc.) whose geographical horizon stretches from
Bactria (Balhika) to Aga (NW Bengal) mention iron for the first time and therefore should
be contemporaneous or slightly rather later than 1200/1000 BCE.

(3.) The YV Sahitå prose texts have a narrow horizon focusing on Haryana, U.P. and
the Chambal area; they and

(4a.) the early Br. texts seem to overlap in geographical spread
and cultural inventory with the archaeologically attested Painted Gray Ware culture, an elite
pottery ware of the nobility, and may therefore be dated after c. 1200 BCE (until c. 800 BCE).

(4b.) The end of the Vedic period is marked by the spread of the Vedic culture of the
confederate Kuru-Pañcåla state of Haryana/U.P. (but generally, not of its people) eastwards
into Bihar (ŚB, late AB, etc.) and by a sudden widening of the geographical horizon to an area
from Gandhåra to Andhra (Witzel 1989). This is, again, matched by the sudden emergence
of the NBP luxury ware (700-300 BCE, Kennedy 1995: 229) and the emergence of the first
eastern kingdoms such as Kosala (but not yet of Magadha, that still is off limits to Brahmins).
The early Upaniads precede the date of the Buddha, now considered to be around 400 BCE
(Bechert 1982, 1991 sqq.), of Mahåvīra, and of the re-emergence of cities around 450 BCE
(Erdosy 1988). In short, the period of the four Vedas seems to fall roughly between c. 1500
BCE9 and c. 500 BCE. (For other and quite divergent dates and considerations, see below §
11 sqq).

Shiv wrote:How to put a timeline on this? How do you decide which words were coined earlier or later?

Quoting Witzel:12.12.

§12.12. Emigration and culture
The matter can still further be elucidated by observing some cultural features:
according to the autochthonous theories the various IE peoples ("Anu, Druhyu" of Talageri
1993, 2000) and their languages hypothetically left India (around 5000/4000 BCE). If put to a
test by archaeology and linguistics, these 'emigrations' would rather have to be set at the
following latest possible dates.112

3000/2500 W.IE leave
while possessing:
ayas 'copper/bronze' > Lat. aes
'copper, bronze', etc.; but:
no chariot yet: Lat. rota 'wheel',
Grk. kuklo- 'wheel', Toch. kukäl,
kokale 'wagon', etc.; note Grk.
new formation hárma(t)- 'chariot'
(Pokorny 1959: 58);
yet, all parts of the heavy, solid
wheel wagon are IE: aka, ara
nåbha 'nave'; Germ. Rad/Lat. rota,
drawn by oxen (ukan); --
domesticated horse *h1ek'wo >
Lat. equus, O.Ir. ech, Toch. yuk,
yakwe, used for riding

2500/2000 E. IE leave

have satem characteristics
(*h1ek'wo, O.Lith. ašvà),
but still no chariots:
Lith. ratas 'wheel, circle'

by 2000 IIr. unity

new : ratha > 'chariot' from
Volga/Ural/N.Caucasus area; and
cakra 'wheel, chariot' -- but how
and when did it (and the domesticated
horse) enter India?
Innovative Āditya gods with
artificial formations (Arya-man
= Avest. Airiia-man, etc.)

1500/1000 Iran. move
with chariot, Ādityas, but keep
old grammar, ntr. pl. + sg. verb, etc.

c. 1000 W. Iranians
are attested on the eastern
borders of Mesopotamia

According to this list, again, all Vedic linguistic innovations (with the RV set at 5000/4000
BCE), and some E. Indo-European ones such as the IIr. chariot, would have happened before
the supposed emigration of the Iranians from India! This is archaeologically impossible, unless
one uses the auxiliary, equally unlikely hypothesis that some IIr.s left India before 2000 BCE
and reimported the chariot into India (Elst 1999). All such arguments need very special
pleading. Occam's Razor applies.

We really need ManishH back to further educate us on the other side as well.

member_23630 · Post by **member_23630** » 31 Aug 2012 20:50

Some rhetoric just to illustrate the OIT’s handling of differing views. No disrespect intended or nothing personal against anybody.

But, do think and reflect.

If this trend continues, nobody will bother to air any differing views in this discussion forum.

So, i hope even differing views are treated with basic courtesy.

1. OIT Theory I: Witzel is always wrong.
Proof: He is a Nazi.

Q: How is he a Nazi ?
A: Oh, that’s straight forward. He is a German. Therefore, he is a Nazi.

Q: That seems a too generalistic. Is there any other evidence to prove him wrong.
A: Sure. Look at this picture. He looks dead even at 65.
Q: Oh oh?
A: What? Still not convinced? I will give you more. He is also lefty / righty / shorty / squinty…

2. OIT Theory 2: All AIT Sepoys are dhimmi morons.
Proof: Everyone here agrees with me/OIT, and you disagree. So simple logic, you see.

Q: Oh oh?,
A: Btw, don’t feel bad. We are very fair - this applies to everybody uniformly.

Even if you are a distinguished Harvard Professor spent your lifetime studying and in scholarship in Sanskrit and Indology.

Even if you know Sanskirit, RV, Linguist, or just a nobdody/curious googling IT types, etc, if you disagree with AIT, we in this forum will treat you all like that.

And, no, it doesn’t matter that some OIT proponents do not know Sanskrit for maybe more than 10 to 20 words or RV beyond occasional rote repetition, and ABCD, BC, BCE, AD, YBP of ancient/pre – history.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 31 Aug 2012 20:56

JohneeG ji posted in Sanskrit nukkad forum:
युक्तियुक्तं वचो ग्राह्यं बालादपि शुकादपि ।
युक्तिहीनं वचस्त्याज्यं वृद्धादपि शुकादपि ||

Meaning:
Reasonable (sensible/judicious) words are acceptable even if they come from children or even from a parrot.
On the other hand, unreasonable (senseless/foolish) words are rejectable even if they come from aged or from sage Sri Shuka Himself or from Witzel himself

member_23630 · Post by **member_23630** » 31 Aug 2012 21:04

venug wrote:JohneeG ji posted in Sanskrit nukkad forum:
युक्तियुक्तं वचो ग्राह्यं बालादपि शुकादपि ।
युक्तिहीनं वचस्त्याज्यं वृद्धादपि शुकादपि ||

Meaning:
Reasonable (sensible/judicious) words are acceptable even if they come from children or even from a parrot.
On the other hand, unreasonable (senseless/foolish) words are rejectable even if they come from aged or from sage Sri Shuka Himself or from Witzel himself

Agreed. Anyways, let's not spend time discussing these tangential subjective judgements.

Now, looking at Shiv's post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1331843

If you consider the IVC, the AIT(Immigration, not Invasion) story is in place, right - what else is missing?

Finally, we understand the logic - linguistic + archeological, and i will go by 'linguistic scholar's relative dates of Mittani, Avestian, RV, etc(and will not buy just trashing of lingustics).

Or, is there any alternate OIT story that 'cogently' explains, IVC, Iron/Bronze, IE language relations, predecessor/successor - please don't give me Astral, Jyotish, etc, etc. Something scientific - pir reviewed.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 31 Aug 2012 21:04

Rajan ji,

No one calls Witzel Nazi because he is German. Not sure how you got the idea. Do you know in what journals he publishes and does the India bashing? do you search lest you think we are paranoid. Hint:His association is with Nazis/Neo-Nazis.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 31 Aug 2012 21:06

Agreed. Anyways, let's not spend time discussing these tangential subjective judgements.

why even bring it up then.

member_23630 · Post by **member_23630** » 31 Aug 2012 21:12

Can someone explain in simple bullet points the OIT theory 'cogently' addressing IVC, Iron/Bronze, IE language relations, wrto predecessor/successor, etc.

So far, i see the discussions is mainly around RV dating. Okay, let's assume RV is dated 2300 BCE. What about other points. What about the whole story?

member_23630 · Post by **member_23630** » 31 Aug 2012 21:26

venug wrote:Rajan ji,

No one calls Witzel Nazi because he is German. Not sure how you got the idea. Do you know in what journals he publishes and does the India bashing? do you search lest you think we are paranoid. Hint:His association is with Nazis/Neo-Nazis.

But, do think and reflect.

Only for that. Not for debating. I am not looking for this forum to detect nazi people or for anybody's character certificate.

If you have a 'substantive' 'point' against his/AIT points/RV dates/arguments, say it, counter it. Let's not indulge in name calling anybody.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Aug 2012 21:31

A nice interview with Iravatham Mahadevan of the Indus Script fame:

http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=740

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 31 Aug 2012 21:42

If you have a 'substantive' 'point' against his/AIT points/RV dates/arguments, say it, counter it. Let's not indulge in name calling anybody.

Kindly start from page 1 of this thread. I am sure you will find what you are searching for. Guess you joined the discussion late.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Aug 2012 21:45

One of the reasons we don't trust Witzel:
http://vishalagarwal.voiceofdharma.com/ ... /index.htm

member_23630 · Post by **member_23630** » 31 Aug 2012 21:57

Shiv wrote: 2. Indo European languages in India likely pre dated the Indus valley civilization.
3. Evidence from Avesta, the Rig veda and the Mitanni texts could mean language out of India rather than into India.

Shiv Ji,

Hm, if you can kindly elaborate / corroborate both of these with:

1. IVC
2. Broze/Iron Timelines
3. Relative dating of 'Avesta, the Rig veda and the Mitanni texts' some lingustic backing.
and, of course, the trio of:

4. Horse
5. Wheel
6. Chariot

to accept / reject AIT/OIT, that would help us to understand the full picture better.

member_23700 · Post by **member_23700** » 31 Aug 2012 22:28

SN_Rajan wrote:
venug wrote:Rajan ji,

No one calls Witzel Nazi because he is German. Not sure how you got the idea. Do you know in what journals he publishes and does the India bashing? do you search lest you think we are paranoid. Hint:His association is with Nazis/Neo-Nazis.

But, do think and reflect.

Only for that. Not for debating. I am not looking for this forum to detect nazi people or for anybody's character certificate.

If you have a 'substantive' 'point' against his/AIT points/RV dates/arguments, say it, counter it. Let's not indulge in name calling anybody.

SN Rajan,

I have not read your posts, previous to your recent posts. IMHO, you did not get what you wanted last time from other forum members, precisely because you are anything but tangential.

You are asking others to answer your questions, however you are not showing basic courtesy of being cogent and not clear as to what exactly is your position.

I read your last few posts and could not make sense of out of anything. Am I the only one in this conundrum?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 31 Aug 2012 22:35

1. IVC
2. Broze/Iron Timelines
3. Relative dating of 'Avesta, the Rig veda and the Mitanni texts' some lingustic backing.
and, of course, the trio of:

4. Horse
5. Wheel
6. Chariot

Rajan ji, to also better understand your take on it, could you also kindly put forth your views in support of AIT what the above bullet points mean? thanks.

disha · Post by **disha** » 31 Aug 2012 22:41

SN_Rajan wrote:If this trend continues, nobody will bother to air any differing views in this discussion forum.

Rajan, if you have a differing view which is cogently and logically explained, then please bring it. Accusing this forum to respond to an uncourteous accusation with basic courtesy is too much. Particularly coming from you.

SN_Rajan wrote: He is a Nazi.

Why are you calling Shri Herr Witzel a Nazi? Can you please apologize first and prove that he is not a Nazi before calling him a Nazi?