Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Sep 2012 23:20

x-posting from intl. aerospace thread:

Lisa wrote:BAE's Striker helmet gives fighter pilots 'X-ray vision'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19372299

"When a pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon jet glances down, he doesn't see a steel-grey floor. Instead he sees clouds, and maybe sheep and cows in green fields below."

Any Rafale specific analyst here?

member_23783 · Post by **member_23783** » 05 Sep 2012 01:21

The IAF made the best choice with the Rafale as it is a medium combat aircraft unlike the Typhoon which is in the medium to heavy class air superiority fighter. The IAF already has the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI air superiority fighter for this roll. The Rafale is more economical and needs less maintenance than the Typhoon and the Rafale already has been cleared to use numerous weapons and also already has a navy version of the Rafale in service. This year Thales was testing an AESA RBE2 radar in a Rafale see link: http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... ESA-Summer

If the IAF had chosen the Typhoon it would had to wait for AESA radar and for weapons to cleared for uses, many of which are already used on the Rafale. And as there is no naval version of the Typhoon, how more years would have been wasted for the IN to wait for the naval version is any ones guess. The other issues are political as France has never embargoed India during any of its conflicts; all of EADS consortium nations have in the past and would in any future conflict.

The Rafale has already proven itself in Afghanistan and Libya using an assortment of weapons and sensors to evade ground defences, where the Typhoon could only be used to designate targets which Tornados GR4’s were used to destroy the targets.

This is what Peter Collins said about the Rafale who is a UK test pilot “The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.”
Read the full article on the link below:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/

The quicker they can get the Rafale in the better to counter the Chengdu J-10B the better!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 43ed9aee1d

member_23783 · Post by **member_23783** » 05 Sep 2012 01:21

The IAF made the best choice with the Rafale as it is a medium combat aircraft unlike the Typhoon which is in the medium to heavy class air superiority fighter. The IAF already has the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI air superiority fighter for this roll. The Rafale is more economical and needs less maintenance than the Typhoon and the Rafale already has been cleared to use numerous weapons and also already has a navy version of the Rafale in service. This year Thales was testing an AESA RBE2 radar in a Rafale see link: http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... ESA-Summer

If the IAF had chosen the Typhoon it would had to wait for AESA radar and for weapons to cleared for uses, many of which are already used on the Rafale. And as there is no naval version of the Typhoon, how more years would have been wasted for the IN to wait for the naval version is any ones guess. The other issues are political as France has never embargoed India during any of its conflicts; all of EADS consortium nations have in the past and would in any future conflict.

The Rafale has already proven itself in Afghanistan and Libya using an assortment of weapons and sensors to evade ground defences, where the Typhoon could only be used to designate targets which Tornados GR4’s were used to destroy the targets.

This is what Peter Collins said about the Rafale who is a UK test pilot “The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.”
Read the full article on the link below:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/

The quicker they can get the Rafale in the better to counter the Chengdu J-10B the better!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 43ed9aee1d

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 05 Sep 2012 01:43

The J-10A,B,C or D or J-11 were never any match for Rafale except in the fervent imagination of fan boys. IAF needs the Rafale in squadron strengths by 2015 and finish the Induction of 7 squadrons by 2020-22. If they can simultaneously replace Mig-21/23/27/Jags with LCA-MK2 IAf would be in great shape.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 05 Sep 2012 08:33

lakhwir wrote: The IAF already has the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI air superiority fighter for this roll. The Rafale is more economical and needs less maintenance than the Typhoon and the Rafale already has been cleared to use numerous weapons and also already has a navy version of the Rafale in service.

The Su-30MKI is also a "multi-role" aircraft and isn't as good as the Typhoon in air combat so one can't reasonably say that the IAF has a "substitute" for the Typhoon. Besides like the Typhoon, the Su-30MKI lacks an AESA radar and has a much larger RCS that is much larger than the Typhoon by many orders of magnitude.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Sep 2012 22:10

Brando wrote: The Su-30MKI is also a "multi-role" aircraft and isn't as good as the Typhoon in air combat so one can't reasonably say that the IAF has a "substitute" for the Typhoon. Besides like the Typhoon, the Su-30MKI lacks an AESA radar and has a much larger RCS that is much larger than the Typhoon by many orders of magnitude.

The bold text is unsubstantiated and quite naive IMHO.

P.S. Corrected the quotations.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 05 Sep 2012 22:15

Who said the Eurofarter is any good in air combat? It gets it ass handed back by Rafale every time. The RCS of Eurofighter is not so small, it can be engaged easily by the BARS radar currently on MKI.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Sep 2012 23:16

lakhwir wrote:The IAF made the best choice with the Rafale as it is a medium combat aircraft unlike the Typhoon which is in the medium to heavy class air superiority fighter. The IAF already has the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI air superiority fighter for this roll. The Rafale is more economical and needs less maintenance than the Typhoon and the Rafale already has been cleared to use numerous weapons and also already has a navy version of the Rafale in service. This year Thales was testing an AESA RBE2 radar in a Rafale see link: http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... ESA-Summer

The IAF did not choose the Rafale. It certified both the Rafale and Eurofighter as meeting its requirements, and the Rafale was later chosen by the MoD on purely financial considerations.

If the IAF had chosen the Typhoon it would had to wait for AESA radar and for weapons to cleared for uses, many of which are already used on the Rafale. And as there is no naval version of the Typhoon, how more years would have been wasted for the IN to wait for the naval version is any ones guess. The other issues are political as France has never embargoed India during any of its conflicts; all of EADS consortium nations have in the past and would in any future conflict.

One, the naval variant is unlikely to be acquired. The IAC-2 isn't going to be operational till well past 2020, at which point a fifth generation aircraft will be the obvious choice to complement the IN's MiG-29Ks and NLCAs.

Two, while the laissez faire approach historically taken by the French govt might have meant embargoes were off the table, it also meant Pakistan was treated exactly at par with India. The only potent element of the Pakistan Navy is entire French built (Daphne/Agosta classes) as was the traditional backbone of the PAF (Mirage III/V). France has also been the leading advocate within the EU for lifting the arms embargo on the PRC, something that will have very serious repercussions vis-a-vis the regional security equation. The picture isn't quite as rosy as you imagine.

The Rafale has already proven itself in Afghanistan and Libya using an assortment of weapons and sensors to evade ground defences, where the Typhoon could only be used to designate targets which Tornados GR4’s were used to destroy the targets.

That's incorrect again. While a shortage of pilots qualified for air to ground missions initially required buddy lasing by Tornados, soon enough the RAF had its EF pilots retrained to currency and performing those missions exactly as designed.

This is what Peter Collins said about the Rafale who is a UK test pilot “The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.”
Read the full article on the link below:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/

Peter Collins was a Harrier/Sea Harrier pilot,. He's never flown the Eurofighter. The fact is he was a test pilot who retired over twenty years back and is not therefore in a position to make a definitive comparison of the aircraft in question.

member_23783 · Post by **member_23783** » 05 Sep 2012 23:34

Well it doesn't make Peter Collins assessment less valid does it!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Sep 2012 23:55

indranilroy wrote:
Brando wrote: The Su-30MKI is also a "multi-role" aircraft and isn't as good as the Typhoon in air combat so one can't reasonably say that the IAF has a "substitute" for the Typhoon. Besides like the Typhoon, the Su-30MKI lacks an AESA radar and has a much larger RCS that is much larger than the Typhoon by many orders of magnitude.
The bold text is unsubstantiated and quite naive IMHO.

P.S. Corrected the quotations.

I believe there's some truth to both parts. The Su-30MKI's RCS is far larger than the EF, though the advantage gained in detection/tracking ranges is proportional to ^1/4 of that. Of course the same also applies to power transmitted. In the RCS * Radar power equation, it would probably be fair to say that the EF has an edge though not an overwhelming one.

In other spheres of air combat, the advantage is more pronounced - better EW system, by all accounts a superior IRST, installed MAWS, better sensor fusion and a better MMI. It also boasts superior performance in transonic, supersonic regimes gearing it well for BVR warfare. As far as WVR combat goes, the EF's Striker HMDS is reportedly second only the F-35's.

Besides, given the proliferation of Su-27 derived fighters in the PLAAF, its logical that the aircraft short-listed by the IAF would have demonstrated an clear edge against a Su-30MK type aircraft.

member_23783 · Post by **member_23783** » 06 Sep 2012 00:03

I'm not saying the Typhoon is a bad plane, but I think the IAF & MOD chose the right plane for there needs and I don't agree that it was selected purely due to financial considerations! And if that was true the Mig-35 would have won!! Need I say more!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Sep 2012 00:07

lakhwir wrote:Well it doesn't make Peter Collins assessment less valid does it!

It doesn't. Not as long as his assessment is limited to - the Rafale is a great fighter and the best fighter he's ever flown. But introducing his article in a comparison with the EF, is a clear distortion of facts. Anybody reading about an RAF test pilot's account assumes that the individual is familiar with all fighter aircraft types in RAF service. An assumption that is clearly wrong.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Sep 2012 00:11

lakhwir wrote:I'm not saying the Typhoon is a bad plane, but I think the IAF & MOD chose the right plane for there needs and I don't agree that it was selected purely due to financial considerations! And if that was true the Mig-35 would have won!! Need I say more!

Its not about good plane or bad plane. Its how the bureaucratic acquisition system works. All applicants who meet the service's requirements as specified by the RFP are invited to submit their bids for the contract. L1 and L2 bidders are identified and contract negotiations start with the L1 party.

I'm afraid your MiG-35 analogy is flawed.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Sep 2012 00:20

lakhwir, only two planes qualified for selections. Mig35 saw the outcome much earlier, and CYA-ed out of the competition.. I guess you were not following the decade long saga.

Viv S is right his analysis./jmt

member_23783 · Post by **member_23783** » 06 Sep 2012 00:26

Saik

I was replying to to Viv s point, read the post before making silly comment!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Sep 2012 01:15

You are wrong in saying it was not considered based on L1 (totally on which of the two plane was cheaper). IAF did not choose the plane, they only selected the top 2 contenders. Again, all these are silly for you means it ends the discussion right here.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Sep 2012 02:21

Viv,

I will not get into the discussion of which plane is better than the other. I am a firm believer that describing the supremacy of two comparable planes cannot be accomplished without giving the combat situation. So, as I said in my opinion, I don't know how to call one plane superior than the other.

Also saying that the RCS vs radar detection range is heavily tipped (in orders of magnitude) to Tiffy is seriously naive in my opinion.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 06 Sep 2012 09:05

if somehow the raffy deal somewhere go south or take time there could be stopgap orders for mig35 not a lot but 2-3 squads

it is cheap, have AESA ,have similarity with mig29 that IAF operate & no need for new infrastructure & separate maintenance facility as its already there .

i think that is why Russians have not lost hope & are giving comments about MMRCA being scraped .

what do you think guys will this be a good solution ???

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Sep 2012 09:19

^^Migs always come with lots of problems, they're not like Sukhoi.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 06 Sep 2012 09:43

raffy will come with new problems sukhoi must have some problems that we have solved

solving problems where formula & method you know is always easy that the problems you are not aware of yet .............

also MIG or sukhoi both are now under United Aircraft Corporation so the problems of spares & maintenance may solve as we are the most $$$ giving customer for them they don't wana mess with us now.
Given that we are finding our requirements in Europe & America now they don't wana lose there customer to competition because of logistic & spare problems.

i want to know what is the level of mig35 compared to raffy /typhoon/f16/f18 etc specs aside from wikipedia

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 06 Sep 2012 14:54

Viv S wrote:
lakhwir wrote:Well it doesn't make Peter Collins assessment less valid does it!
It doesn't. Not as long as his assessment is limited to - the Rafale is a great fighter and the best fighter he's ever flown. But introducing his article in a comparison with the EF, is a clear distortion of facts. Anybody reading about an RAF test pilot's account assumes that the individual is familiar with all fighter aircraft types in RAF service. An assumption that is clearly wrong.

An insightfull journalist to journalist debate on pprune :

I've done some research and my impeccable journalistic sources report that Pete Collins can, at present, only compare the Rafale FBW Digital FCS, that he evaluated airborne during his FLIGHT assessment at Istres in 2009, with the Typhoon FBW Digital FCS, reproduced in the RAF Typhoon Simulator, that he evaluated at RAF Coningsby in 2008.

However, on the basis of what he saw and what he evaluated, Pete Collins's personal opinion would still be to strongly rate the Rafale Digital FCS as giving the better pilot 'fighter type' handling characteristics of the pair, irrespective of the fact that he believes that the Eurofighter advanced control laws are still highly adequate as a similar, very advanced and very agile fighter. According to PC, the Rafale remains the best handling aircraft (by a long way) of the 34 fighter/fighter trainer types he has flown to date.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... oon-2.html

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 06 Sep 2012 16:04

indranilroy wrote: I am a firm believer that describing the supremacy of two comparable planes cannot be accomplished without giving the combat situation. So, as I said in my opinion, I don't know how to call one plane superior than the other.

Also saying that the RCS vs radar detection range is heavily tipped (in orders of magnitude) to Tiffy

IMHO this kind of argument is being deliberately obtuse particularly after all the facts, stats and tete a tete that has gone on in these forums.

member_23783 · Post by **member_23783** » 07 Sep 2012 03:03

I read on http://www.pprune.org/ that some Trench 1 Typhoons are to scrapped by 2020 as its too expensive to upgrade them? is that true, if so that really cheeses me off as UK taxpayer!!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Sep 2012 10:12

Brando wrote:
indranilroy wrote: I am a firm believer that describing the supremacy of two comparable planes cannot be accomplished without giving the combat situation. So, as I said in my opinion, I don't know how to call one plane superior than the other.

Also saying that the RCS vs radar detection range is heavily tipped (in orders of magnitude) to Tiffy
IMHO this kind of argument is being deliberately obtuse particularly after all the facts, stats and tete a tete that has gone on in these forums.

What stats and facts are you speaking about?

Which RCS stat is in public domain? What information about engagement tactics for various combat situations between the MKI and the EF (WVR or BVR), are in the public domain? (Yes, I am aware of a British pilot's evaluation of the MKI where he identifies that the IAF uses a different version of the cobra, and the EF doesn't need to worry about it, and hence the British have made a wonderful investment in the EF. But there is nothing from the Indian side. Make no mistake, they had a real dekho of the Tiffy. Anyways, that's besides the point.) Which DACT result between EF and MKI is in public domain which specifies the conditions of the combat being simulated and the rules being applied.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 08 Sep 2012 12:28

News from Air & Cosmos :

-Indian negotiations are progressing relatively fast with about half of the mandatory point settled. The confidence that the deal could be signed is such that HAL is preparing a 108M$ investment to manufacture/assemble the rafale.

member_23667 · Post by **member_23667** » 08 Sep 2012 18:42

"I find no reason why it shouldn't be signed by the end of this month or next month", Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, IAF, Air Marshal Rajinder Singh said.

He indicated that negotiations are currently on with regard to pricing for the 126-aircraft deal. "There is money....this thing here and there (pricing being finalised)".

The Air Marshal admitted to "some problems" (on pricing) but asserted that it's not unusual in such big deals. "It should come through", he said, adding that the first aircraft under the MMRCA deal would start "flowing in" in 2017.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 312213.cms

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Sep 2012 01:56

What a news

Glad to see some movement. Always good t be pleasantly surprised with earlier reports pointing to deal completion by end of fiscal year.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Sep 2012 02:20

Not to sound skeptical but I will only believe after we sign the deal. I hope the first 20 are built in France and shipped ASAP. So we have one squadron by 2015 itself.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 09 Sep 2012 12:13

The French will be quite happy to ramp up their production to meet our timelines. The Dassault line is moving at minimum pace of 12 aircrafts / year. The maximum is supposed to be 30 aircrafts / year. We have plenty of space to maneuvre.

Hopefully we can get a squadron or two quickly for pur pilots to familiarise themselves. Meanwhile, HAL should not take more than a few years to start home production of these planes.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 09 Sep 2012 14:37

VAST MAJORITY OF THE SWISS OPPOSED TO THE PURCHASE OF THE GRIPEN FIGHTER FROM SWEDEN

According to a survey whose results are reproduced in the leading Swiss newspaper, LaTribune de Genève , the vast majority of the people of Switzerland oppose the acquisition of the Gripen fighter from Sweden.

Only 25.6% of the persons interviewed supported the decision to buy the Gripen.

http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/majorite-suiss ... y/27867478

This is a newspaper in French but the gist of the report will be understandable to us in India.

This is an important development. because Switzerland, is one of the few countries in the world that has a direct public decision-making process, through referendums, that can over-ride / cancel decisions made by the government and the Parliament.

Certainly, this survey will be a blow to the Swiss Defence Minister Ueli Maurer, who has gone out of his way to justify the Gripen acquisition. The Swiss Federal Government's decision to buy the Gripen went against the categorical recommendation of the Swiss Air Force for acquiring the Rafale. The Swiss Air Force's technical assessments ranked the French fighter ahead of all its rivals by a considerable margin. Some of these assessment reports have been posted on BR.

This latest development may provide Dassault a fresh window of opportunity.

Yours truly had written in this forum late last year that the Swiss decision in favour of the Gripen was not the end of the road for Rafale.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 09 Sep 2012 14:40

Thank God we don't have such a system in India or we will be having every 2-bit party handing out biryani in exchange for favors.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 09 Sep 2012 15:39

Ashwinm wrote:
"I find no reason why it shouldn't be signed by the end of this month or next month", Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, IAF, Air Marshal Rajinder Singh said.

He indicated that negotiations are currently on with regard to pricing for the 126-aircraft deal. "There is money....this thing here and there (pricing being finalised)".

The Air Marshal admitted to "some problems" (on pricing) but asserted that it's not unusual in such big deals. "It should come through", he said, adding that the first aircraft under the MMRCA deal would start "flowing in" in 2017.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 312213.cms

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 09 Sep 2012 18:52

THE RAFALE DEAL - ASSESSED FROM A NEW PERSPECTIVE
__________________________________________________

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... costs.html

The author puts forward a very interesting viewpoint. One may not share his perspective but we must pay attention to what he says.

The article was published 5 days ago ; therefore, some members may have read it already. If so, mea culpa.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 09 Sep 2012 18:57

nakul wrote:Thank God we don't have such a system in India or we will be having every 2-bit party handing out biryani in exchange for favors.

On the other hand, the possibility of a referendum blowing your scams sky high is always a potent check on the peccadilloes of the politicians.

Don't be so cavalier in your criticism of direct democracy - it prevailed in ancient Greece and in Rome during certain periods. These periods were also the most glorious interregnums in their history.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 09 Sep 2012 19:00

Jaybhatt wrote:
nakul wrote:Thank God we don't have such a system in India or we will be having every 2-bit party handing out biryani in exchange for favors.
On the other hand, the possibility of a referendum blowing your scams sky high is always a potent check on the peccadilloes of the politicians.

Don't be so cavalier in your criticism of direct democracy - it prevailed in ancient Greece and in Rome during certain periods. These periods were also the most glorious interregnums in their history.

I agree when you said that ancient Greece and Rome had direct democracy. Even we had democracy in ancient India at the village level. That is a real nice thing to have.

However, as Kudankulam protests, Kashmir separatism & Rafale deal show, this cannot be applied in all circumstances.

I don't know how citizens (Swiss or other) will be able to decide a Grippen over a Rafale or F 35. If the media trend is anything to go by, Lockheed MArtin aircrafts will win each tender.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2012 19:37

Jaybhatt wrote: The author puts forward a very interesting viewpoint. One may not share his perspective but we must pay attention to what he says. .

If you don't mind, can you list them out?

member_23667 · Post by **member_23667** » 10 Sep 2012 15:47

Any idea of weapon package?
Will it include meteor?

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 10 Sep 2012 16:59

SaiK wrote:
Jaybhatt wrote: The author puts forward a very interesting viewpoint. One may not share his perspective but we must pay attention to what he says. .
If you don't mind, can you list them out?

the only thing that can be made out of entire article is "there are hidden costs in rafale deal" but absolutely nothing to back this. its a complete useless article. not worth to read even once.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 10 Sep 2012 17:13

Jaybhatt wrote:THE RAFALE DEAL - ASSESSED FROM A NEW PERSPECTIVE
__________________________________________________

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... costs.html

The author puts forward a very interesting viewpoint. One may not share his perspective but we must pay attention to what he says.

The article was published 5 days ago ; therefore, some members may have read it already. If so, mea culpa.

Haha, for the longest time Dassault has been claiming complete independence but as I have said tons of times before indeed a good 7% of the aircraft falls under ITAR and i am pretty sure these are components for the Spectra, AESA, FSO and other critical tech. I am pretty sure we'll end getting only 50% TOT. Rafale winning is one of the biggest scams. Watch as the French screw us over in the next few years. They won't even be able to meet the 60% TOT clause in the RFP.

Man o man what a waste

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 10 Sep 2012 17:36

^ you either know the rafale inside out or know someone at Dassault, which one is it?