Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Sep 2012 01:40

Military to buy DRDO missiles worth Rs 1 lakh cr in 10 yrs

At the tightly guarded “Missile Complex” outside Hyderabad, three Defence Research & Develo-pment Organisation (DRDO) laboratories will, for the first time, provide the military with a range of indigenous tactical missiles. With India’s air defence network in tatters and its warships desperately needing protection from incoming anti-ship missiles, the defence ministry blocked foreign purchases to give the DRDO time to develop indigenous missiles.

Now, over the coming decade, the military is poised to buy about Rs 1 lakh crore worth of DRDO-developed missiles. Top DRDO scientists say indigenous missiles would cost barely half as much as a foreign alternative.
:
:
:
:

jai · Post by **jai** » 04 Sep 2012 02:50

VinodTK wrote:Military to buy DRDO missiles worth Rs 1 lakh cr in 10 yrs
At the tightly guarded “Missile Complex” outside Hyderabad, three Defence Research & Develo-pment Organisation (DRDO) laboratories will, for the first time, provide the military with a range of indigenous tactical missiles. With India’s air defence network in tatters and its warships desperately needing protection from incoming anti-ship missiles, the defence ministry blocked foreign purchases to give the DRDO time to develop indigenous missiles.

:
:

:
:[/quote][/quote]

Hmmm..is this article supposed to tell us about the good side of babus ? Hope they do something similar for Arjun, namica and the others ..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Sep 2012 08:41

cool.. now DRDO can integrate and fuse GAGAN, GPS and GLONASS
http://www.accord-soft.com/semiconductor.html .. not listed here is the G30M they provided to DRDO.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 04 Sep 2012 11:19

VinodTK wrote: Military to buy DRDO missiles worth Rs 1 lakh cr in 10 yrs
the five missile groups already in service: two holding Prithvi missiles; a third holding Agni-I missiles; a fourth holding Agni-II missiles; and a fifth now being raised with Agni-III missiles.

one newbie question: what is structure of one missile group? how many missiles/launchers/crew form a group?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2012 11:50

adityadange wrote:one newbie question: what is structure of one missile group? how many missiles/launchers/crew form a group?

Welcome to the arcane world of Orbats and Table of Equipment (TOE)...

PS: No answer here...need to file an RTI with SFC.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2012 12:29

vivek_ahuja wrote:

Thank in advance

-V.

I read range is not merely a function of fuel and and speed but also a great deal is influenced by trajectory of flight.

I recollect few years back they said Nirbhai will have a range of 1000 km and warhead of 500 kg with total weight of CM being 1000 kg

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Sep 2012 14:56

^^^

I recall reading in one of the old competition success review year book or the Mamorma year book, or some other such source, that the 333 Missile group holds Prithwi missiles holds about 75 missiles along with assorted support infrastructure.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Sep 2012 22:08

Pratyush wrote:^^^

I recall reading in one of the old competition success review year book or the Mamorma year book, or some other such source, that the 333 Missile group holds Prithwi missiles holds about 75 missiles along with assorted support infrastructure.

Shows that its not nuke armed group. otherwise the numbers would be much smallers ~ 1/6th.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 04 Sep 2012 22:28

couldnt be that some of them are nuke armed....a mix of conventional and nukes?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 04 Sep 2012 22:50

They are always mixed. Why keep all nuke ones together?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Sep 2012 00:07

you will never get an answer on that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Sep 2012 01:52

ramana wrote:
Pratyush wrote:^^^

I recall reading in one of the old competition success review year book or the Mamorma year book, or some other such source, that the 333 Missile group holds Prithwi missiles holds about 75 missiles along with assorted support infrastructure.

Shows that its not nuke armed group. otherwise the numbers would be much smallers ~ 1/6th.

ramana, 333 Missile Group (actually, it is 333 Missile Brigade) is composed of sub-units. So, if there are 75 missiles, the same will be spread across sub-units. Also, 75 number would account for primary missile on launchers as well as re-supply.

And I don't think there will be a mixing of conventional and nuclear capability in the same unit. Very dangerous from CBM view-point. I would want my enemy to know unambiguously about my intentions. Having said that, my guess is that one of the sub-units may be tasked with nuclear role. But one thing I'm sure of is that whole damn thing is under SFC - even if there is any tactical role.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 05 Sep 2012 02:00

Aditya_V wrote:Rant on.

August comes and goes but much awaited Nirbhay test does not happen

Rant off

Herr Guanglei must be around for it..

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 Sep 2012 04:10

DRDO takes up Defence Ministry's role for next-gen missiles

DRDO will look at facilities required at the Indian Air Force bases where missiles will be deployed

When the Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) enters service withthe Indian Air Force (IAF) this month, it will have taken 30 years to have been developed and built. Shaken by this delay, the Navy and the IAF have sponsored a new development model for their next-generation missiles, which will see the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) moving away from indigenous technology development, and operating instead as a project manager. Effectively, the DRDO has been handed the coordination role traditionally played by the defence ministry (MoD).

Senior DRDO managers who briefed Business Standard during an exclusive visit to its missile laboratories in Hyderabad said it had been handed control of the budget for the IAF’s futuristic Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MR-SAM); and the Navy’s advanced Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM). This amounts to Rs 10,075 crore for the MR-SAM, and Rs 2,606 crore for the LR-SAM.

From this budget, DRDO has signed technology development contracts with Israeli companies, especially Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), for many of the new systems that will power these SAMs.
:
:
:

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Sep 2012 06:06

^^^ Couple of years from now we will have DRDO scams.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 05 Sep 2012 07:17

VinodTK wrote:DRDO takes up Defence Ministry's role for next-gen missiles
DRDO will look at facilities required at the Indian Air Force bases where missiles will be deployed

When the Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) enters service withthe Indian Air Force (IAF) this month, it will have taken 30 years to have been developed and built. Shaken by this delay, the Navy and the IAF have sponsored a new development model for their next-generation missiles, which will see the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) moving away from indigenous technology development, and operating instead as a project manager. Effectively, the DRDO has been handed the coordination role traditionally played by the defence ministry (MoD).

Senior DRDO managers who briefed Business Standard during an exclusive visit to its missile laboratories in Hyderabad said it had been handed control of the budget for the IAF’s futuristic Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MR-SAM); and the Navy’s advanced Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM). This amounts to Rs 10,075 crore for the MR-SAM, and Rs 2,606 crore for the LR-SAM.

From this budget, DRDO has signed technology development contracts with Israeli companies, especially Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), for many of the new systems that will power these SAMs.
:
:
:

The DRDO's primary function is to develop technology, not act as a systems integrator or project manager. They've done a pretty good job of this in recent years, with world class products such as the Arjun, which as the article notes, seems to have been let down by shoddy manufacturing by the OFB's HVF, Avadi. There are several private sector entities with substantial defence experience including Tata Power SED and L&T that are probably more qualified to fill this role. Why then select the DRDO? There may be more to this than meets the eye, unless of course the babus want to keep the work in their hands and figure the DRDO to represent the best of a bad deal to retain bureaucratic control.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Sep 2012 07:56

^are you suggesting that private industries take over project management and systems integration? how much of systems integration private has done? how much project management private as done especially with mission critical systems?

I understand you are taken by the article, and by that there are zillions who are in the same pissked state as to wtf drdo doing?

Tatas and L&Ts needs to play big.. but it has to be gradual.. It is not just buying and selling here.. it is something very special for defence of the nation..,and to the fact, the chief provider and enabler of technology is DRDO.

If you represent private sector, I would not expect bash DRDO, and gain a ToTing relationship. There is lot more to the product, than the product itself.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Sep 2012 11:05

SaiK wrote:cool.. now DRDO can integrate and fuse GAGAN, GPS and GLONASS
http://www.accord-soft.com/semiconductor.html .. not listed here is the G30M they provided to DRDO.

One should hope that the system can filter out 'deliberate errors' from a GPS satellite. Frankly not a good idea to have inputs from different sources.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2012 12:49

glonass mil-grade we paid for is ok for conventional weapons like PGMs and cruise missiles/SRBMs/MLRS-TCS.

but strategic nuke armed missiles will generally avoid any outside contact and use internal INS and star map sensor to steer themselves.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 05 Sep 2012 13:16

Glad to see SoCs for Glonass/GPS/Galileo developed.
We need the expertise for the IRNSS.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Sep 2012 13:20

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19605

‘Nirbhay’ missile set for test-firing next month

DRDO director general V K Saraswat told TOI that the missile with a turbo jet is now ready to be test-fired. "It is a highly advanced missile with strong capabilities. We have made an assessment of it and we are almost prepared for a test launch," Saraswat said. According to DRDO sources, the stealth missile can cruise even at a 30-meter height from the surface. More importantly, it will also have a loitering capability. After it has been fired, it is possible to change the direction of the missile to hit the target that has been identified.

Reminds me of Israel's Delilah missile. It too has a loitering capability and change targets. But it is 150 km only. Nirbhay is going to be a lambi race ka ghoda.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Sep 2012 13:51

Nirbhay will be a game changer .. If it can be married to a long range UAV surveillance platform then voila ., possibilities are endless !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2012 14:33

well these loitering talib hunting capabilities play second fiddle to what its prime role shall be - deliver devastating deep strikes on vital infra and logistic targets and C3I nodes and on SAM radar networks.

Helina integration with Rustom2 will be another big day mashallah.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 05 Sep 2012 14:48

loitering capability gives us some ability to neutralize mobile BMs on the Tibetan plateau.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2012 16:30

but the mobile BMs might come with 15km range small mobile SAMs as well. these might detect and shoot down any UAVs loitering around.....unless one has total khan type air superiority (which is not possible 500km behind the frontline over such a vast area)

I would rather we develop the J8 type side looking GMTI capability to look 100s of km behind the front and dispatch nirbhay/mini-brahmos whenever such units halt for refueling or deployment. if any strike a/c are available with AASM could even target on-the-move units.

night or bad weather would no longer permit the enemy to mask his movements parallel behind the front.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 05 Sep 2012 18:27

if mobile BMs operate with an AD group or even the new LD- 2000 they become more conspicuous. BMs are better off operating in ones ans twos. All those Chicom vids of a whole unit motoring down a tibetan highway is fine but operational doctrine is likely to be different.

If the Nirbhay turns out to be stealthy in both EM and IR it is gives us a certain capability. similar to what the Delilah -2 is supposed to do for the israelis.

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Sep 2012 18:57

china has a dense air defense environment around its formations., however once war starts the situation becomes more fluid.In a dynamic environment real time surveillance with almost immediate strike capability is required .A long range surveillance platform carrying a nirbhay can almost instantaneously act in a very tight time limited environment

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Sep 2012 18:57

India does not have the industrial capability to build missiles in thousands, while china has.So whatever missiles india builds should have a credible survival capability.Stealth ,speed and accuracy i think will make up for india's smaller arsenal vs chinese.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Sep 2012 19:09

We do have the industrial capacity but not the political will. If we can manufacture 50, we can also manufacture 500 or 5000. During a war, gold plated Rafales & MKIs will not be allowed to go deep in enemy airspace without a modicum of air superiority. In such cases, the strikes will have to be performed by mudmovers like Nirbhay launched from Indian territory/airspace.

We have already setup Brahmos regiments in Arunachal Pradesh. The production for Brahmos missiles is also being ramped up. Hope we adopt a similarly aggressive strategy for Nirbhay. The last thing I want is an Indian pilot captured during a mission that can be performed by missiles.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 06 Sep 2012 10:11

India has a squadron of S-300V systems which were reportedly purchased in 1997 for the development of anti-tactical ballistic missile screen Apart from that, India is evaluating S-300 PMU-1/2 and S-300VM

i don't remember any news of discussion on BR about India evaluating S300VM does anyone have news on this subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300P

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 06 Sep 2012 10:20

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ill- ... 16072.html
'Quoting from above link: 'With its effective public relations machinery, the Department of Defence Research and Development (DRDO) has convinced many people that it is at the cutting edge of missile research. Its chief V.K. Saraswat has claimed that the organisation has developed a missile shield which is ready for deployment.

The truth seems to be at variance with his claims. Leave alone a missile shield, India's missile arsenal itself is still not quite ready. An evaluation made by the authoritative Bulletin of Atomic Scientists says that India's primary nuclear weapon carrying missile seems to be the 150 km range Prithvi I. All the others - the Agni I, II, III, IV and V - remain under development.

In contrast our neighbours like Pakistan and China have a well-developed nuclear arsenal along with a sophisticated missile force.

There is need for the government to provide more effective guidance to the DRDO to ensure that it is able to come up, on time, with products that have an immediate relevance to our security requirements, instead of promising systems which seem to remain under development forever.

India's laid-back nuclear posture may be in keeping with its "no first use" pledge. But surely there is a problem with a country which is too laid back on matters related to its security'. Unquote.
Is it another hatchet job as usual?
Can 'Gurus' throw some light?
Regards.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Sep 2012 10:29

RajD wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ill- ... 16072.html
'Quoting from above link: 'With its effective public relations machinery, the Department of Defence Research and Development (DRDO) has convinced many people that it is at the cutting edge of missile research. Its chief V.K. Saraswat has claimed that the organisation has developed a missile shield which is ready for deployment.

The truth seems to be at variance with his claims. Leave alone a missile shield, India's missile arsenal itself is still not quite ready. An evaluation made by the authoritative Bulletin of Atomic Scientists says that India's primary nuclear weapon carrying missile seems to be the 150 km range Prithvi I. All the others - the Agni I, II, III, IV and V - remain under development.

RajD- may 2 paise. DRDO- if anything lacks a effective Public relations Machinery,

2nd thing who are these atomic scientists commenting on Indian missiles whether they are developed or underdevelopment- how can they no more than DRDO.

I can claim sitting in my A/C office claim American Polaris and Trident missiles are under development.

My advice ignore such farticles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2012 10:50

^ S300 - we never purchased any S300 missiles. I believe we purchased couple sets of the big 3D radar of the system for air defence surveillance role.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Sep 2012 11:00

Man, not another nonsensical piece by IT...these fellows have become so predictable in the tripe they publish. And the most funny thing is them quoting some firang scientist or think tank hot-shot or some journal to rubbish Indian claims/achievements. There is not a single iota of research done by them on the subject...here we have Ajai Shukla saying that IA has 2 x Prithvi Missile Groups+2 x Agni-1 Missile Groups + 1 x Agni-2 Missile Group (forming) and IT is quoting some ch**t from khanland...this is heights of idiotic behaviour..and to top it all, we have posters getting their langots in twist because of this nonsense printed in IT....phew!!!

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 06 Sep 2012 11:46

Nirbhay engine

36МТ
Development – NPO Saturn.
Serial production – NPO Saturn.

Used as a sustainer engine in aviation tactical ballistic missiles of type Kh-59M developed by GosMKB (State Engineering Design Bureau) Raduga JSC.

Technical features of the engine:

double-circuit twin-shaft turbojetengine with coaxial shafts with low and high pressure cascades;
high pressure cascade – diagonal axis compressor and single-stage axis turbine;
low pressure cascade – single-stage ventilator with wide-chord blades and a single-stage axis turbine;
annular combustion chamber;
autonomous oil system;
electro-hydraulic adjustment system;
inbuilt electric generator with 4 kW.

Key Characteristics of the Engine:

Thrust at limiting point, kgf, up to 450
Specific fuel rate at limiting point, kg/kgf*h 0,71
Dry mass, kg 82
Default mass, kg 100
Overall dimensions:
Maximum diameter, mm 330
Maximum length, mm 850

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 06 Sep 2012 12:57

RajD wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ill- ... 16072.html
'Quoting from above link: 'With its effective public relations machinery, the Department of Defence Research and Development (DRDO) has convinced many people that it is at the cutting edge of missile research. Its chief V.K. Saraswat has claimed that the organisation has developed a missile shield which is ready for deployment.

The truth seems to be at variance with his claims. Leave alone a missile shield, India's missile arsenal itself is still not quite ready. An evaluation made by the authoritative Bulletin of Atomic Scientists says that India's primary nuclear weapon carrying missile seems to be the 150 km range Prithvi I. All the others - the Agni I, II, III, IV and V - remain under development.

In contrast our neighbours like Pakistan and China have a well-developed nuclear arsenal along with a sophisticated missile force.

There is need for the government to provide more effective guidance to the DRDO to ensure that it is able to come up, on time, with products that have an immediate relevance to our security requirements, instead of promising systems which seem to remain under development forever.

India's laid-back nuclear posture may be in keeping with its "no first use" pledge. But surely there is a problem with a country which is too laid back on matters related to its security'. Unquote.
Is it another hatchet job as usual?
Can 'Gurus' throw some light?
Regards.

Read it along with another article which came in another daily advocating Arrow 3 for India. There is much beyond the DRDO thrashing.

India doesnt have to deploy all Agni 3 in PAK border. Pakistan is a small country and much of the areas are covered by prithvi varients deployed in the military bases of the border. Again Agni 1 and 2 are deployed as a Tier 2 in bases which are middle. The Agni 3 and 5 are china specific missiles which on process of deployment. Contrary to this pak requies to deploy the missiles more than 1000 KM range to reach any Big city in India. This is the reason why we see too much of Prithvi tests by the SFC. We dont have to deploy a Agni 5 to hit Islamabad, Prithvi itself is a high accurate missile with a 1 tonn warhead capablity.

Offcourse the equation changes if the Pak have a conventional upperhead or a Balastic shield.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 06 Sep 2012 13:11

RajD wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ill- ... 16072.html
'Quoting from above link: 'With its effective public relations machinery, the Department of Defence Research and Development (DRDO) has convinced many people that it is at the cutting edge of missile research. Its chief V.K. Saraswat has claimed that the organisation has developed a missile shield which is ready for deployment.

The truth seems to be at variance with his claims. Leave alone a missile shield, India's missile arsenal itself is still not quite ready. An evaluation made by the authoritative Bulletin of Atomic Scientists says that India's primary nuclear weapon carrying missile seems to be the 150 km range Prithvi I. All the others - the Agni I, II, III, IV and V - remain under development.

In contrast our neighbours like Pakistan and China have a well-developed nuclear arsenal along with a sophisticated missile force.

There is need for the government to provide more effective guidance to the DRDO to ensure that it is able to come up, on time, with products that have an immediate relevance to our security requirements, instead of promising systems which seem to remain under development forever.

India's laid-back nuclear posture may be in keeping with its "no first use" pledge. But surely there is a problem with a country which is too laid back on matters related to its security'. Unquote.
Is it another hatchet job as usual?
Can 'Gurus' throw some light?
Regards.

Here is the farticle published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientist, which IT chose to base its report -
Indian Nuclear Forces 2012 by Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris.

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 06 Sep 2012 13:23

rohitvats wrote:Man,we have posters getting their langots in twist because of this nonsense printed in IT....phew!!!

Oh! No sir, not at all. Just wanted to point out another instance of idiosyncrasy and level to which these so called prestigious magazines would stoop to.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 06 Sep 2012 13:55

DRDO: Intercontinental ballistic missiles well within reach

ICBMs have ranges above 5,500 kilometres, a threshold that the Agni-5 already sits on. For India, a more strategically relevant range would be about 7,500 kilometres, which would cover the world except for the Americas.

“Going up from 5,000 kilometres to, let us say, 7,500 kilometres requires only incremental changes, which we have already assessed. We would need a more powerful booster, which we could make ourselves at ASL; and we would need to strengthen some of the systems, such as heat shielding, that are already flying on the Agni-V,” says Sekharan.

For now, however, ASL is not developing an ICBM. Instead, its focus is on “operationalising” the Agni-V, which involves putting it into a canister and conducting three to four test-launches from the canister. When the Agni-V enters service with the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), which operates India’s nuclear deterrent, it will be delivered in hermetically sealed canisters that safeguard the road-mobile missiles for over a decade, while they are transported and handled.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Sep 2012 13:59

Why does nobody see the basic Irony in an Atomic scientists sitting in the US commenting on the deployability of Indian Missiles which is not there area fo expertise while they sit 15000Km away.

And both these scientists seem to be more of writers than scientists with real world knowledge of Building and operating American Nukes.