India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[member_22539]

Pl. read the full feature in the Indian Express..................

This is really disappointing of you Mr. Philip. I know you love Russia more than the Russians, but I didn't think you would sink to the level of the paid DDM in you blind love.

[Indranil]

We don't know whether it is a 3 prop configuration or 2 prop configuration. The length of the props will increase if one chooses the 2 prop solution (for higher efficiency). In that case, it might not be possible to put the hardpoint directly under the engine. Even with a 3 prop design, I am not sure if there is enough clearance as shown in your picture for weapons release in possible attack profiles (for example in dives etc.)

A pusher prop configuration like on the Mantis makes more sense to me.

[vivek_ahuja]

In my opinion the RustomII design is not ideal for missile underneath the wings design. Even with your design, you won't save much. You can't shoot through the props. Plus you will need longer landing gears which would add weight. The same weight can be utilized in strengthening the wings to carrying the loads further out on the wing.

Shooting through the props was never a proposition, IMO. The idea is to be able to drop the weapon and then fire its engine once its clear of the platform. Similar to how fighters launch air-to-air missiles.

I may be misinformed here but I thought the landing gear is stowed into the fairing underneath the fuselage and not the engine cowlings. If so, how would it increase the length?

[vivek_ahuja]

actually they do.. cannons can fire through props. but old stuff WW1?. fokker

Firing a small and extremely fast cannon round by synchronizing with the propeller is one thing, but you cannot very well push a large air-to-ground weapon like the Hellfire or the Nag through there. Especially when the latter is slow at launch. The Prop rotation rate will not allow it.

No. The idea is to release the weapon, let it lose some altitude and then fire its motors to propel it to the target.

[Indranil]

In my opinion the RustomII design is not ideal for missile underneath the wings design. Even with your design, you won't save much. You can't shoot through the props. Plus you will need longer landing gears which would add weight. The same weight can be utilized in strengthening the wings to carrying the loads further out on the wing.

Shooting through the props was never a proposition, IMO. The idea is to be able to drop the weapon and then fire its engine once its clear of the platform. Similar to how fighters launch air-to-air missiles.

You and me are on the same page here. I was speaking of having sufficient clearance.

I may be misinformed here but I thought the landing gear is stowed into the fairing underneath the fuselage and not the engine cowlings. If so, how would it increase the length?

Now, if the engine cowlings (along with the engines) are moved to above the wings(As Victor sahab is suggestting), then the main landing gear will have to be lengthened by the vertical displacement of the cowlings from it's present location.

[vivek_ahuja]

deleted...

[vivek_ahuja]

Deleted...

[Karan M]

Pll. read the full feature in the Indian Express..................

You mean this poorly written hit piece full of lurid untruths?

The whole piece is rubbish. Anyone serious can look through it in seconds, but you couldnt?

Take this.

Says V K Mittal, a former senior scientist with the agency, “DRDO technology is almost two decades old. Two projects, namely Samyukta and Sangraha electronic warfare equipment, were partially inducted in the armed forces, but users felt these were outdated and more expensive than the latest technology available.”

So some disgruntled gent is now an authoritative source?

First, lets see what Army says about "outdated" technology. This is another lurid magazine, but at least this is an interview so they'll be more circumspect about representing his view accurately.

http://forceindia.net/ForceIndiaJuly201 ... view9.aspx

Today, We Have the Advanced Equipment Which Can Take Care of a Larger Portion of The Spectrum and is More Potent’
Commandant, Military College of Telecommunication and Engineering

What are the major changes that have happened in the electronic warfare (EW) in the last five years? Where exactly are we headed in this area?
We have EW equipment which has been indigenously manufactured by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) on which training is being given in addition to the new equipment which is on its way from Israel. Samyukta system by BEL is state-of-the–art equipment and has already been fielded in one of the groups.

Next, partially inducted...really? Sangraha & Samyukta both were series manufactured and follow on variants are in development.

These are the orders for Sangraha.

5 May, 2007 (FIDSNS)

SANGRAHA Electronic Warfare (EW) system jointly developed by Indian navy and Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is being implemeted in Indian naval assets.

15 KITE Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system have been inducted in service on Kamov and Chetak Helicopters. Additional 47 KITE systems are in order and in various levels of production and integration. EAGLE ESM systems have been installed on Dornier aircraft and 8 more systems have been ordered. First 5 HOMI systems built by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) have been installed on TU-142 aircraft and additional orders are being processed. 2 PORPOISE ESM systems have been installed in EKM Submarines and additional 11 systems have been ordered. ELLORA system built by BEL has been installed on INS Beas. Three more ships of INS Beas class and three ships of P-17 class will be equipped with ELLORA.

Anyone can track Naval ship launches and see Ellora for instance is in series production.

And Indian systems compared to worldwide peers? Lets have a look here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kyU4KzEQrLw/T ... C00667.jpg

Lets see...digital receiver (check), LPI detection and classification (check), radar fingerprinting (check), compact form factor for use on multiple platforms (check - this ESM system is being developed for both Navy and AF).

Easily compares well with what is available from some of the "best" vendors in terms of feature set.

Of course, given the standards employed by Indian journalists, this is all too much detail..

[member_20292]

Karan M...it's not DDMs fault.

1. Negative news sells everywhere.

2. Govt run PSUs are easy targets because they, lets face it, do not have effective publicity mechanisms.

Critics will say what they will. We dont want a lockmart in India, developing F 35s and wasting money, but we dont want a church mouse who depends on the armed forces for generosity and benevolence. It aint there. Period.

The DRDO has to learn to compete on its own, and fight negative news on its own.

DDM, the Army, AF, Navy are not going to help it there. Modern sales techniques will.

[Karan M]

Its not DDM's fault for being unethical and dishonest, because being unethical and dishonest works - i.e. selling negative news works so lets make up some stuff or peddle a view that is not even balanced out with half decent research?

How is that not their fault?

In every profession, there are some standards, checks and balances. Net, is that while there are loads of "by all means necessary" types in every industry, the checks and balances do keep some of the most prodigious quacks out.

But in Indian journalism apparently, there are no such mechanisms enforced or followed.

Ultimately, its not about DRDO not having an effective PR mechanism or DPSUs, its about a media which is brazen, drunk with power and unabashed in its ability to cook up stuff. VK Singh's "coup attempt", the by now known phenomenon of paid news, the blatant pushing of one political party/view through their mechanisms..

Which kind of shows the point, that even if things were all hunky dory on the PR front, these people would still push an agenda.

[member_23629]

DRDO gets GPS module

HYDERABAD: In an instance of DRDO-private industry collaboration, a company carried out research and development in the areas of Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) and developed a highly miniaturised module with all available satellite constellations of GPS, Glonass and Gagan.

G3oM, a tiny module weighing just 17 gm was handed over to DRDO director general V K Saraswat by M/s Accord Software and Systems Pvt Ltd of Bangalore.

The module can be used in a variety of applications like aircrafts, helicopters, mobile vehicles, boats, ships and survey applications. This has also got civilian use and can be produced in large numbers at low cost.

[vic]

Drdo is pet and easy target. No such reports are ever filed against foreign costly junk

[member_23629]

RP Shenoy, 'father of radar research in India', passes away

Dr. Ramdas P Shenoy, former Director of the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE), a unit under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Bangalore, passed away after a brief illness, on 16th Aug 2012, according to a statement issued by the DRDO.

"Considered the father of Radar research and development in the country and an internationally acclaimed expert in Radar, Dr. Shenoy was the Director of LRDE from 15 Nov 1973 to 27 April 1987" the press release states. He initiated the development of many contemporary radars in DRDO, many of which are presently in service with the armed forces. He was also responsible for the development of many communication systems for the armed forces.

He was one of the first Distinguished Scientists of DRDO and was conferred the Padma Shri award by the Government of India in 1987. After his retirement from DRDO in 1989, he pursued his research interests as a visiting professor in the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the DRDO in 2002. He is survived by his wife and three daughters.

[member_20292]

How is that not their fault?

In every profession, there are some standards, checks and balances. Net, is that while there are loads of "by all means necessary" types in every industry, the checks and balances do keep some of the most prodigious quacks out.

Sure. But, the dailymail sells like hot cakes in the UK, perezhilton works in America. People.com, US magazine. No standard-shtandard there..just freedom of speech.

But in Indian journalism apparently, there are no such mechanisms enforced or followed.

Ultimately, its not about DRDO not having an effective PR mechanism or DPSUs, its about a media which is brazen, drunk with power and unabashed in its ability to cook up stuff. VK Singh's "coup attempt", the by now known phenomenon of paid news, the blatant pushing of one political party/view through their mechanisms..

Which kind of shows the point, that even if things were all hunky dory on the PR front, these people would still push an agenda.

On the contrary, DRDO having good PR is the solution. We cannot muzzle someone who wants to criticize the DRDO. Heck, even my uncle, who retired as a Colonel in the army, had a few negative words to say about them.

People can say what they want. This freedom is enshrined in the constitution. Politicians take a lot of flak in the newspapers, deserved or not; MMS takes a lot of flak, deserved or not. It is not the "correctness" of the accusation, or the veracity of the report.

It is all about putting one's word out there for the world to see. One has to peddle one's wares to the world, like it or not. One has to market, like it or not. Being a frontline DPSU and seemingly critical to the way the country runs is not a strong enough fact to shield it from criticism (well researched or not).

The DRDO HAS TO MAKE USE of the freedom of speech-fact to its advantage, and not suffer from it's lack, as a disadvantage. In that, it is no different from a hindustan lever or an ITC in that it has to advertise its wares, maintain a good website, have outreach programs.

The Indian Army Air Force Navy run those ads with the tagline; "Do you have it in you?" The DRDO can follow suit to recruit engineers to its groups.

I have really enjoyed the posts of Karan M; especially whence he wrote about dual sourcing some time back, which made me aware that the Indian forces are not doing as badly as one would think. Similiarly when he spoke about the radar advances, I was similarly enlightened.

But for my reading those posts, I would not have such a positive view of the organizations works.

[Surya]

equally frustrating is the fact that veterans of BR like Philip who should know better fall hook, line and sinker for such a hit job.


not just the EW stuff - look at the nonsense on Arjun -

and the idiot analysts need to go quietly into the night and let tarmak007s and shuklas (not withstanding his F35 nonsense) do the work.

[PratikDas]

DRDO gets GPS module

Broadsword: Satellite navigation breakthrough for aircraft and weapons

[nakul]

From the above article

But Russia remains unwilling to provide India with the “precision code”, although the two countries have signed joint statements about working together on GLONASS. MoD sources tell Business Standard that the matter remains “under discussion”.

Interesting. Russia has not shared military grade signals with us..

[Victor]

A pusher prop configuration like on the Mantis makes more sense to me.

Yes it would but more like the Alenia Molynx. The undercarriage under the engines adds unnecessary additional weight to the wings and should be moved to the fuselage like I have shown. Overall, we will not get an armed UCAV anytime soon IMO.

[vic]

Thirty year old foreign junk from foreign like C-130, Apache, Smerch, T-90 err T-72, Hawk, Pilatus, TATRA, ARVs, Gorky, floating junk & scrap helos from USA- forgot name of the ship, etc etc

[vic]

I think R&D budget should be increased Nd split up as follows:-

DRDO 15,000 crore per annum for strategic and high tech projects

OFB 2500 crore per annum for low tech bulk item projects

PSUs 2500 crore per annum for absorbing and developing tech through foreign JVs

Pvt sector 10,000 crore per annum for make & buy

[Philip]

I love to see BRites resort to their favourite hobby of "shooting the messenger" instead of reading the contents.Going by some of the comments,it would seem that the DRDO is flawless,above criticism and India is self sufficient in defence hardware.I used the word "patchy" to describe the DRDO's accomplishments.I have never decried its accomplishments,esp. in missile etch.Why ,giving just one example,in another thread just a few days ago I asked why a naval variant of Akash could not be developed.
The IE piece is supposed to be taken from an audit on the orders of the Def. Min. AKA by the MOD.Just a few days ago we also had Uday Bhaskar also mentioning the FACTS about the time taken to build our own warships and the actual Indian content in them.It is also a fact that even the underpowered LCA MK-1 ,promised to be in service a decade ago has yet to be commissioned.As for Kaveri,the least said about that fiasco the better.Can we also add Tatra to the list of DRDO accomplishments then?

Let the well-informed members of BR who believe the DRDO to be flawless then come out with their own audit,when our major projects were started,how much was the budget then,the cost overruns. and what has been accomplished,what succeeded and what failed.There is enough open source material available for the same.

[nakul]

Philip saar, we jingoes get jumpy when u fail to distinguish between genuine concerns & lifafa articles. no one claims DRDO is perfect but u must put it in proper context. ADE is not LM and expecting GTRE to be P&W is equally demanding.

[Philip]

I agree,but look at how other nations deal with failure.Pres.Putin has just sacked the head of Russia's space organisation because of several failures.He did it earlier with the head of Bulava missile programme,but only after giving the organisations sufficient time and launches.Have we yet seen a single head of an Indian PSU sacked for faiure? One must be joking.They move onto the queue in line to receive their "Padma awards"! Look at the Tatra scam for instance and how its head brazenly refuted the expose's details.

Unless there is time bound management of our defence programmes,with Plan B and Plan C options in case we (DRDO/our PSUs) fail to deliver ,thousands upon thousands of crores-taxpayers money,yours and mine, will simply go down the drain and we will be smply employing thousands of scientists at massive cost,with scamsters skimmimg the cream off budgets,to produce "technology demonstrators" like Trishul,Nag,etc.! I also condemn our polliticla establishment for not giving defence matters the seriousness which it must deserve,as without the nations security,internal and external,given the highest priority,we will yet again see the hordes of Mongols- Babar,Nadir Shah,and John Co. (already back through the financial back door thanks to Dr.Singh) repeat the invasions and looting of India.

[nakul]

Our PSUs will deliver when we stop imports. Look how well Agni, Sahurya are doing. Akash was done on the insistence of the MoD otherwise we would still be importing. Arjun is far superior but silly excuses like lack of supporting infrastructure instead of any shortcomings of the tank are used. The services should get over the import horse.

Stop bashing DRDO when it is quite clear that they put their life on the line to arm our services. The Russians don't have imports so they don't crib and accept what they got. They replicated Rolls Royce for their jet engines. In contrast, we have a much better home grown engine. Even the Chinese realise this.

[Philip]

DRDO "puts it life on the line"? Tell me another! Some individuals perhaps, but one cannot lump the entire establishment with that rating.There are reams of reports which can show the opposite.True there are major successes but in specialised fields like rocketry.The staement that if we stop imports ,automatically DRDO will produce results is fallacious.It is simplistic.Just two examples prove the opposite,Kaveri and Trishuil and Nag is in danger of joining that list.The Brahmaputra class waited for Trishul for years and had to be commissioned without any SAM,requiring a knee-jerk acquiisition of Barak and we know the delays in the LCA programme due to the failure of Kaveri.

Where do we have the cutting and bleeding edge labs that exist in the major defence manufacturing nations? Why,we can't even produce a single engine for a fighter jet,let alone one for the IJT,despite decades of the GTRE's existence.One can go on and on.
Let's face reality.There are indeed areas where the DRDO has made great progress,but there are also huge gaps and technology never remains static.As for our gaps in tech,I've been saying for a decade+ that we should set up a new engine tech establishment to design and manufacture every type of engine required from light aircraft,helos to fighters.Why then are we co-developing with Israel,Russia and France missiles,radars,avionics,EW warfare eqpt. etc.,if we can do so ourselves? It has been the easy for the DRDO to talk and promise,and as many of our former chiefs and senior service officers-the end users have said, but very difficult for it to walk the talk.

As I said at the beginning,let's make a BR audit of DRDO programmes and satisfy ourselves as to see how well they have peformed.

[nakul]

You may be aware of DRDO's AWACS program earlier?

The recent accident of Arjun tank designer when he was heading out for trials?

The tarnishing of V K Singh's image when he refused to move foreign orders supported by bribes?

The non face to face comparison of Arjun vis a vis T 90?

Not placing orders for howitzers for the IA & waiting for exports?

The direct import of TATRA trucks assembled in India?

The Soviet Union used aircraft engines that had a life of 50% of their western counterparts. We imported them happily. We can't depend on other countries for such basic things. Even the Barak is getting delayed because the IMI is involved in corruption scams. DRDO has tested the motor but the seeker is IMI's job. This what we have to face when we import. Those Akulas, Sukhois we happily import were built on decades of funding. Even Israel supports its Merkava over the M1A1.

[vic]

It is the last four Ade tenders on the Live Tenders Page.

Tender Pageurl

.


This page shows that we have just started tendering process for components of prototypes of Rustom-2 and wheeled Nishant. It means squadron level service entry will be ten years away

[Indranil]

^^^ A case of selective reading . For example Rustom-2 tenders mostly mentioned a 15 month deadline! I am a huge proponent of privatization, but please don't undermine the hardwork of some people.

[Philip]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19606

BR's own Business Std. report (1st part of a 3-part series) on the DRDO's plans for the adavanced next-gen SAMs for the IN and IAF is definitely worth a read.Due to the 30 yrs. time taken to develop Akash,an "alarned" IN and IAF have taken the JV route this time,wiht the RDRO playing the role not of design and development,but project managers in truth,wiht the whole matter being outrsourced to Israel.The IN in particular waiting for its new LR SAMs for its Kolkatta class DDGs,of which there is even with the Israeli lead role,a two-year delay.The current Barak missile can only deal with anti-ship missiles like "Harpoon and Excocet" upto a range of around 15km but the new LR 70KM range missiles will be able to meet future threats.

Thus as far as this projetc is concerned,the "holy grail" of indigenisation has been effectively dumped,with only local production to ensure spares,etc .on tap for the ed-users.Since India is fuding "90%" of the project,a major Q is what % of the proiject is India's share? Are we simply funding an Israeli project for free for them odo we have "90%" of the royalties for the same?Some members on BR have said that the main reason why our desi projects have been delayed or failed is because of inadequate fundng and dedicated support for the same.Otherwise,the JV route is fine,it should be better managed and come in faster, as ong s we ge get our share of dev. costs,royakltes,etc.

[Neela]

It is the last four Ade tenders on the Live Tenders Page.

Tender Pageurl

.


This page shows that we have just started tendering process for components of prototypes of Rustom-2 and wheeled Nishant. It means squadron level service entry will be ten years away

Just curious ...why 10 years away?

[ramana]

Usually thats how long it takes to set up a green field system from scratch.

[Katare]

Philip,

It's because of Akash that Israel is willing to do a JV with us. Because of the technology base provided by Akash/trishul we are now also capable of absorbing the cutting edge technology and even make meaningful contributions to the the JV.

Learning is hard and time consuming but it becomes a long grind is only very limited resources are available in a poorly managed/governed set-up.

[vic]

Tenders have been issued to supply components of Prototypes in around 2.5 years. Now add time for assembling these components say one year. R&D, trials for another 1-2 years. Order for bulk purchase, components will come in 2.5 years and production variant will start rolling out in say 1 year. Hence 10 years.

[Austin]

Focus DRDO: Versatile, world class

[A Sharma]

HAL News

The Ground Run of the first production standard ALH Mk-IV Helicopter was completed on August 11, 2012.
ARDC launched the first metal cut for HAL Turbo-prop Trainer (HTT)-40 aircraft on August 22, 2012.

[Dhanush]

Lots of important information from HAL news letter

LCH completes sea level trials
htt40 - completion of preliminary design, wind tunnel tests etc. metal cutting starts.
ALH WSI - first production HC out
IJT - LSP-3 ground run happens

[chiru]

this hal report is truly a treasure trove of info here is another bit of interesting info about PAK-FA



seems they are doing their own wind tunnel tests as all the control surfaces are operable

[Singha]

PAKFA??
why would we test a wind tunnel of pakfa that is already flying?

you mean AMCA?

[Varoon Shekhar]

Focus DRDO: Versatile, world class

When the writers from Indian Express, Deccan Chronicle and India Today read this article, how are they going to square it with the negative, derisive commentary they come out with?

[Snehashis]

this hal report is truly a treasure trove of info here is another bit of interesting info about PAK-FA


seems they are doing their own wind tunnel tests as all the control surfaces are operable

It looks like the same model indicated in the future products section at HAL's site.