Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Prem Kumar wrote:True. But we cant trash PIE (as a means to debunk AIT) and in the same breath use PIE to promote OIT. As a corollary, no need to go easy on PIE because its potentially useful for OIT.

In my view, linguistics can play a supporting role in a migration theory, but cannot be the main crutch. This is because its a fairly unscientific field. This is one of the main criticisms of AIT, that I gathered from reading this thread. All its other support structures have been stripped away. It needs PIE and some very specific date-ranges to survive.
Prem Kumar Ji,

While AIT go-go crowd uses anything but justificatory route to defend/explain/confuse others about their theory, a truth seeker does not (and should not) talk in terms of "let's trash PIE' or "use PIE to promote OIT".

Now, I do know we use such language, loosely, when we don't exactly mean what we say (myself included.. for example.."this clearly establishes" or I have established date of such and such event to be")

Vinoba put it best (for a truth seeker). "He has to employ the scissor of reason, commonsense, experiment --(two blades of scissors as 'fearlessness' and 'humbleness.... this is my improvization- extempore!)--and start cutting through the mess (e.g. AIT) or problem. Whatever superfluous will be cut and fall of. Where scissors hit the hard sections -that is worth investigating---and where your scissor breaks ---more than likely you have found the truth ---or approximation to the truth.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Mahabharata Date

Disclaimer: The kings genealogical table below may be wrong!

Here Amlan Roychowdhury should be commended for putting some new light on calculating the date of the Mahabharata, and just like our Nilesh Oak ji, he too seems to see the merit of placing Mahabharata in the 6th millenium.

Published on Dec 08, 2008
By Amlan Roychowdhury
Dwarka and the Mahabharata @articlesbase

------------
There is a striking inscription which has been found in the Jain Temple at Aihole prepared by one Chalukya King Pulakeshi. It says, according to scholars, that the temple was constructed in 30+3000+700+5 = 3735 years, after the Bharat War and 50+6+500 = 556 years of Shaka era in Kali era. Today Shaka era is 1910. Hence 1910- 556 = 1354 years ago the temple was constructed. Thus the year of inscribing this note is 634 AD. At this time 3735 years had passed from the Bharat War. So the date of the War comes to 3101 BC. This is also the date of Kali Yuga Commencement. Naturally, it is evident that relying on the beginning of Kaliyuga Era and holding that the War took place just before the commencement of Kaliyuga,

The verse inscribed is :

Trinshatsu Trisahasreshu Bhaaratdahavaditaha |

Saptabda Shatayukteshu Gateshwabdeshu Panchasu | Panchashatasu Kalaukale

Shatasu Panchashatsucha | Samatsu Samatitasu Shakaanamapi Bhoobhujaam ||

The verses has been interpreted by considering the clauses of the verse. It says "3030 years from the Bharat War" in the first line, ( Trinshatsu Trisahasreshu Bhaaratdahavaaditaha) where the first clause of the sentence ends. in the second line, the second clause starts and runs up to the middle of the third line thus ( Saptabda.....Kalaukale) This means 700+5+50 = 755 years passed in the Kali Era. It is clear from the former portion of the verse that 3030 years passed from the Bharat War and 755 years passed from Kali Era. Kali Era started from 3101 BC. 755 years have passed so 3101-755 = 2346 BC is the year when 3030 years had passed from the Bharat War. So 2346+3030 = 5376 BC appears to be the date of Bharat War.

The Greek Ambassador Magasthenis has recorded that 138 generations have passed between Krishna and Chandragupta Maurya. Many scholars have taken this evidence, but taking only 20 years per generation they fixed the date of Krishna as 2760 years before Chandragupta. But this is wrong because the record is not of ordinary people to take 20 years per generation. In the matter of general public, one says that when a son is born a new generation starts. But in the case of kings, the name is included in the list of Royal Dynasty only after his coronation to the throne. Hence, one cannot allot 20 years to one king. We have to find out the average per king by calculating on various INDIAn Dynasties. I have considered 60 kings from various dynasties and calculated the average of each king as 35 years. Here is a list of some of important kings with the no. of years ruling.

Code: Select all

      Chandragupta Mourya      330-298 B.C.     32 years.

      Bindusar                 298-273 B.C.     25 years.

      Ashok                    273-232 B.C.     41 years.

      Pushyamitra Shunga       190-149 B.C.     41 years.

      Chandragupta Gupta       308-330 A.D.     22 years.

      Samudragupta             330-375 A.D.     45 years.

      Vikramaditya             375-414 A.D.     39 years.

      Kumargupta               414-455 A.D.     41 years.

      Harsha                   606-647 A.D.     41 years.

                                                ---------

                                                327 years.

      The average is 327/9 = 36.3 years.

Multiplying 138 generations by 35 years we get 4830 years before Chandragupta Mourya. Adding Chandrgupta's date 320 B.C. to 4830 we get 5150 B.C. as the date of Lord Krishna.

Megasthenis, according to Arian, has written that between Sandrocotus to Dianisaum 153 generations and 6042 years passed. From this data, we get the average of 39.5 years per king. From this we can calculate 5451 years for 138 generations. So Krishna must have been around 5771 B.C.

Pliny gives 154 generations and 6451 years between Bacchus and Alexander. This Bacchus may be the famous Bakasura who was killed by Bhimasena. This period comes to about 6771 years B.C.

Thus Mahabharata period ranges from 5000 B.C. to 6000 B.C. and Dwarka fits into this scenario perfectly.

Mahabharata mentions the ancient tradition as 'Shravanadini Nakshatrani', i.e., Shravan Nakshatra was given the first place in the Nakshatra- cycle (Adi-71/34 and Ashvamedh 44/2) Vishwamitra started counting the Nakshatras from Shravan when he created 'Prati Srushti'. He was angry with the old customs. So he started some new customs. Before Vishvamitra's time Nakshatras were counted from the one which was occupied by the sun on the Vernal Equinox. Vishvamitra changed this fashion and used diagonally opposite point i.e. Autumnal Equinox to list the Nakshtras. He gave first place to Shravan which was at the Autumnal Equinox then. The period of Shravan Nakshatra on autumnal equinox is from 6920 to 7880 years B.C. This was Vishvamitra's period at the end of Treta yuga. Mahabharat War took place at the end of Dwapar yuga. Subtracting the span of Dwapar Yuga of 2400 years we get 7880 - 2400 = 5480 B.C. as the date of Mahabharat War.

Recently Dr. S.B. Rao, Emeritus Scientist of the National Institute of Oceanography, Dona Paula, Goa, 403004, has discovered under the sea, Dwaraka and dated it as between 5000 to 6000 BC. This news has been published by all the leading newspapers on 22nd October 1988.
------------

Fantastic work!
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

RajeshA ji,

Amalan Roychoudhary may be simply communcating Vartak's write up on his blog.

This is portion of translation from P V Vartak's 'Swayambhu' (Marathi).

I am writing this note to clarify that this is not new and independant work. Thanks to Amalan Roychoudhary for spreading the message.

Added later...
This piece is good illustration of Vartak's genius. One may praise me for my perseverance, but I was not willling to do anything else unless 'Arundhati began walking ahead of Vasistha'. Vartak knew this reference, insisted that it was factual observation, attempted testing with limited tools he had access to, and even when he could not corrborate the reference...he employed multiple means to arrive at a date. Again, he had no way of knowing (what I mean is strong basis)that he had arrived at a right date/right range.

Karl Popper had great piece in his 'Unended quest' on difference between those who break the barriers (Changing paradigm vs. Normal science in Kuhn's language) vs. those who keep on justifying.. in language of Shakaracharya "Charvit -chrvanam"....chewing the chewd.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Looking at the article by Amlan Roychowdhury, a few comments

a) He has done a great job rethinking the Aihole inscription!

b) Thus he gives a date of 5376 BCE.

c) Question is if it is possible to show through Adhik masa, and other corrections, that this could indeed be 5561 BCE as shown by Nilesh Oak ji.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Nilesh Oak ji,

just asking, did Dr. P.V. Vartak reinterpret the Aihole inscription to point to 5376 BCE? I haven't read Dr. P.V. Vartak very closely! :oops:

If not then it may be a major discovery by either Amlan Roychowdhury or somebody else!
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

Carl wrote:A lot of damage has been done, and its external consequences may have been delayed, but that is no cause for complacency. Its just that there are many more factors at play. But that doesn't mean that damage has not been done.
Even if we disagree about the actual damage past or future of AIT on Indian society, I do agree with one thing:

If AIT causes such divisiveness in India, I'd rather see an factually bogus OIT being taught in India. Truth can be investigated later too, but survival of India is of immediate interest.
Why is it that a 2012 BBC documentary on AIT is allowed to get away with stuff that you said no academic paper in the last 60 years even by AIT-proponents supports? Where is the hue and cry? Why is there no organized movement within academia to come out publicly and thoroughly discredit it? If you don't do that, then what other option is left?
I haven't seen the documentary myself; so what I have from you are these words
1. Repeats what you yourself called a 'myth' of the AIT/AMT - that the RigVeda is a recorded running commentary of the movement into India.
If Michael Woods says something like that, it is clearly wrong. Because there is just no running commentary in rgveda of people movement either in or out of India.
ManishH ji, from a "linguistics" perspective, how would one classify pure Urdu verse taken from its highest bards? Indian, or Perso-Arabic families? Take the following verse from Mirza Ghalib -

naqsh faryaadi hai har shokhi ye tahreer ka
kaaghazi hai pairahan har paikar e tasveer ka
Bit OT, but Urdu emerged as a pidgin language - a purely utility language in soldier camps. As it was given patronage by rulers, it underwent a process called depidgination (creolization) and relexification and appeared as a literary language of poetics. That's what linguistics has to say about it. The grammar is Indian, the vocabulary is a mix of turkic/persian/mongol/indian origin.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji,

just asking, did Dr. P.V. Vartak reinterpret the Aihole inscription to point to 5376 BCE? I haven't read Dr. P.V. Vartak very closely! :oops:

If not then it may be a major discovery by either Amlan Roychowdhury or somebody else!
RajeshA ji,

It is all P V Vartak (Aman ji post). 5376 BC is Vartak interpretation.. What he is doing is interpreting various evidences to see if it makes sense for a certain time period.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

RajeshA wrote:Looking at the article by Amlan Roychowdhury, a few comments

a) He has done a great job rethinking the Aihole inscription!

b) Thus he gives a date of 5376 BCE.

c) Question is if it is possible to show through Adhik masa, and other corrections, that this could indeed be 5561 BCE as shown by Nilesh Oak ji.
No need of Adhika masa. As I said elsewhere, Vartak research and his proposals would be proved wrong/or remain right, he is original in his work, including his 'Astral travel experiements' (irrespective of whether one thinks his experience is real or it was his deluded experience). He is indeed a rare breed!

My Ramayana proposal (timing) would be dramatically different from his proposal and naturally I am going to falsify practically each and every argument of his. Having said that I am dedicating the book to him. His works (Swayambhu, Wastav Ramayana and rest) made me interested in the subject and I would not have accomplished what I did with "MBH War' or what I am working on "Ramayana', in the absence of his works.

It so happens (I think only coincidence.and nothing more) that year 5561 BC seems to have all crazy things happening. Adhika masa , but also Kshaya masa. While Adhik masa is inserted every ~2.5-2.8 years, Kshaya masa is rare and has varying interval such as 19, 35, 65, 143 years etc. I am reserching it further (no change for the MBH War date) in the context of conflicting reference of 'lunar month of Magha' as timing of Bhishma Nirvana and in discussions with P V Vartak on that specific point. But in the big and small scheme of things, certainly a side bar.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

RajeshA wrote:c) Question is if it is possible to show through Adhik masa, and other corrections, that this could indeed be 5561 BCE as shown by Nilesh Oak ji.
No role for Adhika masa here. In any case, RajeshA ji, I am simply using this as a pretext, to briefly state the following for the benefit of 'thread' members.....

The awareness of Adhika masa shows the awareness of true solar year and true lunar year.

That is why I stated, elsewhere, that purported nonsense of 8 (variable length of Adhika Masa.. right MA!!!!) x72 = 576 years is a load of crap. Only reason I have not discussed that issue here is because it is OT.

Simple fact lost on those who don't understand, but claim to know calendrics, is that the very idea of Adhika masa is to eliminate the error (between Solar and Lunar year) and not to 'create' it or 'add' to it. :x

And to claim that such error could 'add' up over years is to 'flaunt one's ignorance'!

The upper limit for having such error is <5 years.

If someone deliberately chooses to ignore synchronizing solar year with lunar year, then that is a differnt story (as done by Islamic calendar which is purely Lunar in nature.. that is why month of Ramadan keeps shifting..in approximately ~15 years, it appears at exteme end of natural seasons.. ie. peak of summer vs. peak of winter).

Concept of Adhika masa is old concept.. It is there in Rigveda, Taittirya Samhita, Mahabharata, Brahmana.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4496
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem Kumar »

ManishH: would you mind responding to my questions on page 123? Thanks
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4496
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem Kumar »

Nilesh: I wasnt advocating "using" PIE or "promoting OIT". I was suggesting the opposite & calling for consistency in analysis. We are on the same page
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Image

Publication Date: 1846
Author: E.A. Schwanbeck
Megasthenes Indica [Google]


Image

Publication Date: 1877
Author: J.W. McCrindle
Ancient India as described by Megasthenes and Arrian

Page 203
Megasthenes wrote:From the time of Dionysos to Sandrokottos the Indians counted 153 kings and a period of 6042 years, but among these a republic was thrice established **** and another to 300 years, and another to 120 years. The Indians also tell us that Dionysos was earlier than Hêrakles by fifteen generations, and that except him no one made a hostile invasion of India, - not even Kyros the son of Kambysês, although he undertook an expedition against the Skythians, and otherwise showed himself the most enterprising monarch in all Asia; but that Alexander indeed came and overthrew in war all whom he attacked, and would even have conquered the whole world had his army been willing to follow him. On the other hand, a sense of justice, they say, prevented any Indian king from attempting conquest beyond the limits of India.
Now this is what the Puranas give as the genealogies of the Magadha kings

Code: Select all

S.No.  Dynasty       No. of Kings	Years reigned	From–To years B.C.
----------------------------------------------------------------
1      Barhadradha	    22             1006        3138-2132
2      Prajyota	        5              138        2132-1994
3      Sisunaga	       10              360        1994-1634
4      Nanda (9 Nandas reigns 2)         100        1634-1534
5      Maurya	         12              316        1534-1218
6      Sunga	          10              300        1218--918
7      Kanva              4               85         918--833
8      Andhra            32              506	      833--327
9      Gupta              7              245         327---82
So a few things are here of note
  1. According to Megasthenes, the duration of the first republic is not known. For the sake of argument let's say it is the average of the other two - [(300 + 120) /2] = 210 years.
  2. According to Megasthenes, thus monarchy existed for a duration of (6042 - 210 - 300 - 120) = 5412 years.
  3. Average reign of a king per Megasthenes (5412 /153) = 35.37 years. Sounds fair!
  4. Considering Hêrakles to be Sri Krishna.
  5. Considering Sandrokottus to be Chandragupta I Gupta.
  6. Number of Regal Generations (Kings) between Sri Krishna and Chandragupta I Gupta in 327 BCE would be (153 - 15) = 138 Kings.
  7. Now the Purana list of Magadha Kings before Chandragupta I Gupta give just 97 kings. So the number of unaccounted kings till Sri Krishna (138 - 97) = 41 Kings
  8. Number of years of rule per Purana List of these 97 kings = 2811 years.
  9. Average reign of a king per Purana List (2811 / 97) = 28.98 years
  10. Average reign of a king prior to the Barhadradha dynasty [(5412 - 2811) / (153 - 97)] = (2601 / 56) = 46.45 years. This could be less, as we do not know how long the first republic was.
  11. Approximate number of years of rule of these unaccounted kings would be (41 x 46.45) = 1904.3 years
  12. Time till the end of Sri Krishna's rule = [3138 (till start of Barhadradha) + 1904.3 (reign of unaccounted kings) + 120 (third republic) + 300 (second republic)] = 5462 years
  13. Mahabharata War was 36 years prior to the end of Krishna's rule, so (5462 + 36) = 5498 BCE.
  14. 5498 BCE is in striking range of the time proposed by Nilesh Oak ji with a difference of only (5561 - 5498) = 63 years!
  15. Another way to get the correct date would be to consider the republic of unknown duration as part of this period till the end of Sri Krishna's rule.
  16. For example if we take the average reign of a king to something even more credible than 46.45 years, let's say 43.34 years, then [3138 (till start of Barhadradha) + (41 x 43.34) (reign of unaccounted kings) + 120 (third republic) + 300 (second republic) + 210 (first republic) + 36 (Sri Krishna's rule after Mahabharata War)] = 5561 BCE!
Megasthenes speaks of republics existing in Magadha - 3 of them. These are not accounted for in the Puranas List. My speculation here, and I admit I haven't done background reading as yet, is that Barhadradha may have established this line of kings immediately after some republic. Hence the kings list does not go before that, and the kings prior to that are not named.

If one were to accept Megasthenes testimony that there were 153-15 generations between Sandrokottus and Hêrakles, the question to ponder is whether we should accept Hêrakles as Sri Krishna. Considering their childhood, where as children they both crush snakes, etc. it is possible that Megasthenes would have associated Hêrakles with Sri Krishna!

One could think of Hêra as cognate of Sri and Kles as cognate Krish(na).

What the testimony of Megasthenes provide us is 41 more reigns of unaccounted kings plus a republic of unknown duration, which when added to the reign of Kings of Magadha in the Puranic list allow us to extend the antiquity to Mahabharata War, assuming it was in 5561 BCE.
Last edited by RajeshA on 12 Sep 2012 19:57, edited 2 times in total.
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

Prem Kumar wrote:ManishH:

a) In linguistics, when you claim that 2 languages have a common parent, what is it based on? What % of words must they have in common? Example: if Sanskrit had 1000 words and 100 of which have Greek counterparts, that's a 10% match. Is that enough evidence to search for a common parent?
It used to be so, but now linguistics has moved away from using %ages. Language families are decided by semantics and phonetics

1. Semantics - the key here is verb-roots. If 2 languages share verb roots, eg. Sanskrit श्रु and Greek klu are cognate roots means "to hear". They are a basis for many related words, including the word for fame (श्रवस्) and kleos. When verb roots are used to make indirectly related words, it indicates the two belong to a common language family and the borrowings are not just loanwords (lexical borrowings).

Compare Sanskrit loan words in Kannada eg. the word ಶೃತಿ (shruti: sound, often musical). Kannada doesn't use the word as a verb-root - to hear is ಕೇಳು. Famous is ಹೆಸರುವಾಸಿ. So 'shruti' is a lexical borrowing from Sanskrit into Kannada. Kannada is classified as part of Dravidian language family.

2. Phonetics - in the above example, Greek and Sanskrit share a regular sound correspondence - Greek L often corresponds to Sanskrit R and Greek K often sees a Sanskrit Sh or Ch.
b) What's the reason for a belief in a strict tree-like parent child relationship in languages?
You're right in pointing out that languages keep interacting and changing even after separating. But that doesn't take away from using knowledge of certain uni-directional changes in sounds to infer the relative order of languages in a family tree.
Arent there equally valid alternate hypotheses. Example: multiple parentage and a more grid-like connection intermingled with parent-child relationships (like Shiv's illustration). And some languages might just be independant of another - with just some borrowed words that establish a tenous link (suggesting some interaction between the populations - nothing more)
Lexical borrowing can be detected often very clearly because of a lack of roots in the target language. Eg. the word 'phone' is borrowed into Hindi from English via Greek, but Hindi doesn't use it as a root to form related words.
c) When locals borrow a foreign word, they pronounce it based on their native phonetic ability/usage. Example: I find it impossible to pronounce the word Schipol (Amsterdam airport) the way the Dutch do it. So, I just pronounce the "Sch" as "Sh" (as in Sheep). I'm sure they would be equally hard pressed to pronounce Vazhai Pazham (banana in Tamil). They may just pronounce "zh" as "y" or "l". So, if either culture borrows the other word, each will modify it accordingly. This kind of borrowing highlights a couple of things: the question of relationship & the question of parentage/evolution
I agree with this. And again a lexical borrowing like that is easily discernible. Eg. When a westerner borrowed "Mulligatawny" from Tamil Millagu Thanni, they did not carry the knowledge of roots. The borrowers don't use the word Thanni for water or watery things.
Question of relationship: as the above example shows, a simple borrowing & local modification doesnt suggest that the languages themselves have a deeper relationship. One can jump to that conclusion only if the similar-sounding words form a significant % of the vocabulary - point (a) above
The extent of borrowings is a bigger indicator - eg. Greek and Sanskrit share vocabulary of verbs, body parts, kinship terms, physical world, home and hearth, food drink, Grammatical elements, poetry metres, poetical devices etc. I suggest looking at the table of contents of the book Mallor&Adams "The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European" to get an idea of the breadth of cognates shared between Greek and Sanskrit (or any language of IE family).
Question of parentage/evolution: who is to say which sound is more "difficult" or "natural" to pronounce? It depends on what you grew up pronouncing.
Yes, you are right that "difficult" and "natural" are subjective things. Nowhere in the theory of sound change are sound changes explained as more "natural" or "difficult". Instead sound change is explained as conditioned by neighbouring sounds eg. Velars (k) turn into palatals (ch/sh) in presence of front vowels (e/i). Sound change is intrinsically tied to how the human breath and human tongue moves during articulation of sounds.
ManishH
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 21 Sep 2010 16:53
Location: Sovereign, Socialist, Secular, Democractic republic

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ManishH »

venug wrote: I feel you weren't 100% honest in accepting loop holes in linguistic arguments. Either you hid or ignored or remained silent knowing fully well some of the arguments made against linguistics or AIT are true. Many people like me who know nothing about linguistics would have benefited greatly by your knowledge if only you were more open to counter arguments about AIT and linguistics and showed us weaknesses and strengths of our/your arguments. I only see your passion to your interests rather than to the truth. You be your own judge.
I've mentioned very early in the thread that the biggest issue with Linguistics is that it cannot on its own point to the IE homeland. Without archaeological data, linguistics is of ZERO help in locating the homeland.

I'm not sure how you can still think I'm hiding loopholes and lacunae in Linguistics. If I haven't been able to respond to any post of yours where you raised the lacunae, it is only because of lack of time.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Nilesh Oak wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji,

just asking, did Dr. P.V. Vartak reinterpret the Aihole inscription to point to 5376 BCE? I haven't read Dr. P.V. Vartak very closely! :oops:

If not then it may be a major discovery by either Amlan Roychowdhury or somebody else!
RajeshA ji,

It is all P V Vartak (Aman ji post). 5376 BC is Vartak interpretation.. What he is doing is interpreting various evidences to see if it makes sense for a certain time period.
Thanks for the clarification. Wouldn't want to ascribe P.V. Vartak's wisdom to someone else!
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Prem Kumar wrote:Nilesh: I wasnt advocating "using" PIE or "promoting OIT". I was suggesting the opposite & calling for consistency in analysis. We are on the same page
Prem Kumar ji,

Yes. We were (and are) on the same page. I did not misunderstand you.

My mistake. I should have writeen something like 'To add to what prem Kumar said' at the beginning of my post.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

BTW, RajeshA ji,

I told Vartak , few months ago (may be a year ago) that I am working on dating of Ramayana, that my proposed date is going to be different than his and that I am going to 'trash' his dates and arguments, etc.

He encouraged me to go ahead and said that I have his blessings! He understands 'Guru shishya parajayet'.

Thales asked Anximander (nephew and student of former) to do the same, i.e. Trash theory of Earth, Thales had proposed. (Not just greek words from Sanskrit, but greek attitude from Indian Dharma system)

BTW, I have never met him in person, although planning on doing it uncoming December. He is ~80 year old and resides in Pune, Maharashtra, India. He is as active in his research work as he was say 40 years ago!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Nilesh Oak ji,

when you meet Shri P.V. Vartak, please also convey well wishes from the broader community here!
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Disclaimer: I am very cautious of articles which propose that Indians were the builders of other famous civilizations like those of Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Chinese, Mayans, etc. But still such claims need to be looked at.


Published on Jul 16, 2009
By Amlan Roychowdhury
Vedic Civilization, the Progenitor of the Egyptian Civilization @articlesbase
When Tutankhamen's Father Akhenaten, the pharaoh, shifted his capital to a place called Amarna and erected a temple dedicated to the Sun god and naming the temple as The Karnak Temple. The sun god in the Hindu pantheon is an important deity and a temple dedicated to the Sun God is situated in the state of Orissa build in 1278 CE by Narasimha Deva. This temple is called KARNAK TEMPLE. We do see a similarity don't we?
In Nav Bharat Times ( A reputed news paper in India ) dated 18th April 1967 reported that in one of the excavation that was being conducted in the Egyptian Pyramid date 3000 years BC and engraved verse from Bhagawad Gita was found. The verse was "vasami jirnani yatha vhiaya" This means "as a person puts on new garment, giving up the old ones, the soul similarly accepts a new material body giving up the old and the useless ones".
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Virendra »

BTW, I have never met him in person, although planning on doing it uncoming December. He is ~80 year old and resides in Pune,
Please also inquire about astral travel :P
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

In an earlier conversation ManishH claimed that the process of palataliztion led to the conversion of Greek equus to ashwa and Greek kleos to sravas in Sanskrit.

I believe this is incorrect.

I have looked for Greek and Sanskrit cognates of Greek words starting with kl- and ke- because these are the very sounds that get palatalized. And indeed some of them have been palatalized to "sa-" in European languages but NOT in Sanskrit. I have changed the color of the possibly palatalized English derivative to purple.

The words below are listed in the order Greek, Sanskrit and English translation
  • keiro khar cut
    keleuma hladate shout
    kentron kantaka sting
    keramikos kumbhakar potter
    kinnamomon daruchini cinnamon
    kineo chalati,sarati move
    klado klandati weep
    kleis kuchika key
    kleos khyati (not sravas in the dictionary I consulted)
    knetho kanduyana itch
Sanskrit shows no general tendency to palatalize Greek cognates. The association alleged by ManishH is hereby falsified

Incidentally "hladate" like hrudaya is a case of Sanskrit "ha" becoming Greek "ka" - something that I have termed as posterior palatalization
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Sheet-Anchor of Indian History

In the context of falsification of Indian history, one may mention Dr. Subramaniam Swamy's address at the International Conference of Indian History in 2009 held in New Delhi (icih2009)

Speech Given on Jan 11, 2009
By Dr. Subramaniam Swamy
Dr. Subramanian Swamy’s Valedictory Speech at the ICIH-2009 — Part One
Dr. Subramanian Swamy’s Valedictory Speech at the ICIH-2009 — Part Two

Part 2
The customary dates quoted for composition of the Rig Veda (circa 1300 B.C.), Mahabharat (600 B.C.), Buddha’s Nirvana (483 B.C.), Maurya Chandragupta’s coronation (324 B.C.), and Asoka (c.268 B.C.) are entirely wrong. Those dates are directly or indirectly based on a selected reading of Megasthenes’ account of India. In fact, so much so that eminent historians have called if the “sheet anchor of Indian chronology”. The account of Megasthenes and the derived chronology of Indian history have also an important bearing on related derivations such as the two-race (Aryan-Dravidian) theory, and on the pre-Vedic character of the so called Indus Valley Civilization.

Megasthenes was the Greek ambassador sent by Seleucus Nicator in c. 302 B.C. to the court of the Indian king whom he and the Greek called “Sandrocottus”. He was stationed in “Palimbothra”, the capital city of the kingdom. It is not clear how many years Megasthenes stayed in India, but he did write an account of his stay, titled Indika. The manuscript Indika is lost, and there is no copy of it available. However, during the time it was available, many other Greek writers quoted passages from it in their own works. These quotations were meticulously collected by Dr. Schwanbeck in the nineteenth century, and this compilation is also available to us in English (J.M. McCrindle: Ancient India as Described by Megasthenes and Arrian).

When European indologists were groping to date Indian history during the nineteenth century (after having arbitrarily rejected the various Puranas), the Megasthenes account came in very useful. These scholars simply identified “Sandrocottus” with Chandragupta, and “Palimbothra” with Pataliputra. Since Megasthenes talks of Sandrocottus as being a man not of “noble” birth who essentially usurped the throne from Xandrames and founded a new dynasty, the western writers took it as enough evidence to suggest that Sandrocottus was Maurya Chandragupta, who deposed the Nanda (=Xandrames) dynasty, and founded the Maurya dynasty. This identification, thus places Maurya Chandragupta circa 302 B.C.

However, Megasthenes also notes that Sandrocottus was a contemporary of Alexander, and came to the throne soon after Alexander’s departure. With a little arithmetic on how many days it would have taken Alexander to cross the Indus, etc., the scholars arrive at c.324 B.C. as the date of Chandragupta Maurya’s coronation. It is on this date that every other date of Indian history has been constructed.

The western writers constructed other dates of Indian history by using the data on the number of years between kings given in the Puranas, even though they have generally discredited this source. For instance, the Puranas give the number of years for the reign of Chandgragupta and Bindusara as 62 years. Using this period, Asoka’s coronation year is calculated by them as 324-62 =c 262 B.C. This estimated year is then cross-checked and adjusted with other indicators, such as from the Ceylonese Pali tradition. The point that is being made here is that some of the important dates of Indian history have been directly determined by the identification of Megasthenes’ Sandrocottus with Maurya Chandragupta, and Xandremes with Nanda.

The founder of the Mauryas, however, is not the only Chandragupta in Indian history, who was a king of Magadh and founder of a dynasty. In particular, there is Gupta Chandragupta, a Magadh king and founder of the Gupta dynasty at Patliputra. Chandragupta Gupta was also not of “noble” birth and, in fact, came to power by deposing the Andhra king Chandrasri. That is, Megasthenes’ Sandrocottus may well be Gupta Chandragupta instead of Maurya Chandgragupta (and Xandremes the same as Chandrasri, and Sandrocryptus as Samudragupta).

In order to determine which Chandragupta it is, we need to look further. It is, of course, a trifle silly to build one’s history on this kind of tongue-gymnastics, but I am afraid we have no choice but to pursue the Megasthenes evidence to its end, since the currently acceptable history is based on it.

In order to determine at which Chandragupta’s court Megasthenes was ambassador, we have to look further into his account of India. We find he was at Pataliputra (i.e. Palimbothra in Megasthenes’ account). We know from the Puranas (which are unanimous on this point) that all the Chandravamsa king of Magadh (including the Mauryas) prior to the Guptas, had their capital at Girivraja (or equivalently Rajgrha) and not at Pataliputra. Gupta Chandragupta was the first king to have his capital in Patliputra. This alone should identify Sandrocottos with Gupta Chandragupta. However some 6-11th century A.D. sources call Pataliputra the Maurya capital, e.g., Vishakdatta in Mudrarakshasa, but these are based on secondary sources and not on the Puranas.

Pursuing Megasthenes’ account further, we find most of it impossible to believe. He appears to be quite vague about details and is obviously given to the Greek writers’ weakness in letting his imagination get out of control. For example, “Near a mountain which is called Nulo there live men whose fee are turned back-wards and have eight toes on each foot.” (Solinus 52.36-30 XXX.B.) “Megasthenes says a race of men (exist in India) who neither eat or drink, and in fact have not even mouths, set on fire and burn like incense in order to sustain their existence with odorous fumes…..” (Plutarch, Frag. XXXI). However, Megasthenes appears to have made one precise statement of possible application which was picked up later by Pliny, Solinus, and Arrian. As summarized by Professor K.D. Sethna of Pondicherry, it reads:

“Dionysus was the first who invaded India and was the first of all who triumphed over the vanished Indians. From the days of Dionysus to Alexander the Great, 6451 years reckoned with 3 months additional. From the time of Dionysus to Sandrocottus the Indians reckoned 6452 years, the calculation being made by counting the kings who reigned in the intermediate period to number 153 or 154 years. But among these a republic was thrice established, one extending…..years, another to 300 and another to 120. The Indians also tell us that Dionysus was earlier than Heracles by fifteen generations, and that except for him no one made a hostile invasion of India but that Alexander indeed came and overthrew in war all whom he attacked.”

While there a number of issues raised by this statement including the concoction that Alexander was victorious in battle across the Indus, the exactness with which he states his numbers should lead us to believe that Megasthenes could have received his chronological matters from none else than the Puranic pundits of his time. To be conclusive, we need to determine who are the “Dionysus” and “Heracles” of Megasthenes’ account.

Traditionally, Dionysus (or Father Bachhus) was a Greek God of wine who was created from Zeus’s thigh. Dionysus was also a great king, and was recognized as the first among all kings, a conqueror and constructive leader. Could there be an Indian equivalent of Dionysus whom Megasthenes quickly equated with his God of wine? Looking through the Puranas, one does indeed find such a person. His name is Prithu.

Prithu was the son of King Vena. The latter was considered a wicked man whom the great sages could not tolerate, especially after he told them that the elixir soma should be offered to him in prayer and not to the gods (Bhagavata Purana IV.14.28). The great sages thereafter performed certain rites and killed Vena. But since this could lead immediately to lawlessness and chaos, the rshis decided to rectify it by coronating a strong and honest person. The rshis therefore churned the right arm (or thigh; descriptions vary) of the dead body (of Vena) to give birth to a fully grown Prithu. It was Prithu, under counsel from rshi Atri (father of Soma), who reconstructed society and brought about economic prosperity. Since he became such a great ruler, the Puranas have called him adi-raja (first king) of the world. So did the Satpatha Brahmana (v.3.5 4.).

In the absence of a cult of soma in India, it is perhaps inevitable that Megasthenes and the other Greeks, in translating Indian experiences for Greek audiences, should pick on adi-raja Prithu who is “tinged with Soma” in a number of ways and bears such a close resemblance to Dionysus in the circumstances of his birth, and identify him as Dionysus. If we accept identifying Dionysus with Prithu, then indeed by a calculation based on the Puranas (done by D.R. Mankad, Koti Venkatachelam, K.D. Sethna, and others), it can be conclusively shown that indeed 6451 years had elapsed between Prithu and a famous Chandragupta. This calculation exactly identifies Sandrocottus with Gupta Chandragupta and not with Maurya Chandragupta. The calculation also identifies Heracles with Hari Krishna (Srikrishna) of Dwarka.

This calculation must be necessarily long and tedious to counter the uninformed general feeling first sponsored by Western scholars, that the Puranas spin only fair tales and are therefore quite unreliable. However, most of these people do not realize that most Puranas have six parts, and the Vamsanucharita sections (especially of Vishnu, Matsya, and Vagu) are a systematic presentation of Indian history especially of the Chandravamsa kings of Magadha.

In order to establish these dates, I would have to discuss in detail the cycle of lunar asterisms, the concept of time according to Aryabhatta, and various other systems, and also the reconciliation of various minor discrepancies that occur in the Puranas. Constraints of space and time however, prevent me from presenting these calculations here.

However, on the basis of these calculations we can say that Gupta Chandragupta was “Sandrocottus” c.327 B.C. His son, Samudragupta, was the great king who established a unified kingdom all over India, and obtained from the Cholas, Pandyas, and Cheras their recognition of him. He also had defeated Seleucus Nicator, while his father Chandragupta was king. On this calculation we can also place Prithu at 6777 B.C. and Lord Rama before that. Derivation of other dates without discussion may also be briefly mentioned here: Buddha’s Nirvana 1807 B.C., Maurya Chandragupta c. 1534 B.C., Harsha Vikramaditya (Parmar) c. 82 B.C.

The European scholars have thus constructed an enormous edifice of contemporary foreign dates to suit their dating. A number of them are based on misidentification. For instance, the Rock Edict XIII, the famous Kalinga edict, is identified as Asoka’s. It was, however, Samudragupta’s (Samudragupta was a great conqueror and a devout admirer of Asoka. He imitated Asoka in many ways and also took the name Asokaditya. In his later life, he became a sanyasi). Some other facts, which directly contradict their theories, they have rather flippantly cast aside.

We state here only a few examples – such facts as (1) Fa-hsien was in India and at Patliputra c. 410 A.D. He mentions a number of kings, but makes not even a fleeting reference to the Gupta, even though according to European scholars he came during the height of their reign. He also dates Buddha at 1100 B.C.. (2) A number of Tibetan documents place Buddha at 2100 B.C. (3) The Ceylonese Pali traditions leave out the Cholas, Pandyas, and Cheras from the list of Asoka’s kingdoms, whereas Rock Edict XIII includes them. In fact, as many scholars have noted, the character of Asoka from Ceylonese and other traditions is precisely (as R.K. Mukherjee has said) what does not appear in the principal edicts.

The accepted history of no country can however be structured on foreign accounts of it. But Nehru and his Leftist cronies did just that, and thus generations of Indians have been brainwashed by this falsified history of India.

The time has come for us to take seriously our Puranic sources and to re-construct a realistic well-founded history of ancient India, a history written by Indians about Indians. Such a history should bring out the amazing continuity of a Hindu nation which asserts its identity again and again. It should focus on the fact that at the centre of our political thought is the concept of the Chakravartin ideal – to defend the nation from external aggression while giving maximum internal autonomy to the janapadas.

A correct, defalsified history would record that Hindustan was one nation in the art of governance, in the style of royal courts, in the methods of warfare, in the maintenance of its agrarian base, and in the dissemination of information. Sanskrit was the language of national communication and discourse.

An accurate history should not only record the periods of glory but the moments of degeneration, of the missed opportunities, and of the failure to forge national unity at crucial junctures in time. It should draw lessons for the future generations from costly errors in the past.

In particular, it was not Hindu submission as alleged by JNU historians that was responsible for our subjugation but lack of unity and effective military strategy.

Without an accurate history, Hindustan cannot develop on its correct identity. And without a clearly defined identity, Indians will continue to flounder.Defalsification of Indian history is the first step for our renaissance.
Last edited by RajeshA on 12 Sep 2012 23:25, edited 1 time in total.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Virendra wrote:
BTW, I have never met him in person, although planning on doing it uncoming December. He is ~80 year old and resides in Pune,
Please also inquire about astral travel :P
Virendra ji,

I have had conversations on 'Astral travels' with him via email and also via. phone conversations. And while experience is his, I even proposed a 'theory' for one of his unique experience from that 'Astral travel' :) I am a theory guy! You give me data, I will come up with a theory. However, luckily, I am savvy enough to refrain from logic such as.. "since I proposed it , it must be true. Afterall it looks reasonable and whatever is reasonable is real. And whatever is real is of course the truth'

When time permits, I may describe it on paranormal thread, but it is too much OT here. So I will stop.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Arjun »

shiv wrote:Sanskrit shows no general tendency to palatalize Greek cognates. The association alleged by ManishH is hereby falsified
S S Misra has also disproved this theory in his section relating to linguistics in Edwin Bryant's book 'Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History'. Pages 183- 186.
Last edited by Arjun on 12 Sep 2012 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Nilesh Oak, I am a little foggy about Arundhati walking before Vasishta (Sapta rishi constellation) nugget. Per my reading the Mahabharata, just before the war Veda Vyasa visits Dritharastra and gives all the ill omens that point to a great war that would cause the Kshatriyas to perish. Among the omens he lists the above one and something about Rohini. Is this what you refer to in your book?

Thanks in advance.
ramana
Kaushal
BRFite
Posts: 442
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: SanFrancisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Kaushal »

i think what must have happened to my posts is that the br software automatically logs me out after certain length of time and when i say save it does not really save it ,because i am already logged out by then . i have gotten a couple of strange message from the webmaster, which did not make sense to me at the time, but which did not mention anything about my post. i say this because the shorter length posts are getting in. i think the explanation by shiv that i pressed the no button is not the right one , because it is unikely that i would have done that 4 times in a row. (THis is why i warn people from converting anecdotal evidence to a fact ).

If in fact my explanation is correct it is only fair that the software warns me in real time that it is logging me out AND TO SAVE MY STUFF, rather than in some obscure note from the webmaster, the notification for which appears in very small letters in a small box in my large screen, and only after i open it in the user control .
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Agnimitra »

ManishH wrote:If AIT causes such divisiveness in India, I'd rather see an factually bogus OIT being taught in India. Truth can be investigated later too, but survival of India is of immediate interest.
Alright.
ManishH wrote:If Michael Woods says something like that, it is clearly wrong. Because there is just no running commentary in rgveda of people movement either in or out of India.
Of course its wrong. What I was asking was - why is it that there is no forceful, organized condemnation of such antics from within academia? If some Tejo made such a documentary about OIT, I'm sure certain sections of academia would come out to ridicule it, with holy declamations and ceremonious admonishments of intellectual integrity. And I'm not even talking about the overt politically motivated Thaparite types. Its just that many genuine academics are so morally terrorized by their Thaparite colleagues, that they feel a nervous need to come out to establish their credentials. So perhaps a moral counter-terror is needed to make them also come out and debunk AIT BS?

Intellectual work is not divorced from its social and political consequences. "Not fearing consequences" means to encounter truth and then have the wisdom to evaluate it in terms of how it is communicated. Instead, this "not fearing" that we have been seeing seems to be a smokescreen for a very nervous reaction prompted by a constant barrage of moral terrorism from the Thaparite brigade.
ManishH wrote:Bit OT, but Urdu emerged as a pidgin language - a purely utility language in soldier camps. As it was given patronage by rulers, it underwent a process called depidgination (creolization) and relexification and appeared as a literary language of poetics. That's what linguistics has to say about it. The grammar is Indian, the vocabulary is a mix of turkic/persian/mongol/indian origin.
But Sanskrit is also a syncretic language, as its very name suggests. Clearly, it very genes appear to have been aggregated from the various subcultures under its civilizational sphere, and then given a systematic form. So even with Sanskrit, it cannot be treated as an organic "tribal" tongue whose parts can be correlated solely based on genetic and archaeological evidence, but it would have to be evaluated in terms of the civilizational paradigms of different eras. This civilizational extent is the subject of all Sanskrit literature going back to the most ancient. But this very paradigm is given the short shrift by Western historians who a priori assume a very, very primitive, semi-nomadic tribal society with one tribe fighting others for space, and where only racial ties matter.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Sheet-Anchor of Indian History

Posting in full!

Published on Aug 12, 2009
By M P Ajith Kumar
Senior Lecturer in History, Sanatana Dharma College, Alappuzha, Kerala
Sheet Anchor of Indian Chronology – A Critique

(An article by M P Ajith Kumar criticizing the chronology of ancient Indian history set by European Indologists. This article points to the necessity of framing a new chronology based on the Indian accounts. But undoing the present one is necessary to frame the new one. This article would be enough to undo the chronology the European scholar William Jones framed and those like Max Muller endorsed.)

Western scholars like William Jones, Pargiter, James Princep, George Turnour, etc, have commendably contributed to Oriental studies. Sir William Jones, a judicial officer in the East India Company was the founder and President of the Royal Asiatic Society established in Bengal in 1784. Widely traveled in North India, Kashmir and Western Asia, he studied the history of these areas. He collected from Kashmir a text of the history of Bactria called Dabistan Document and concluded that kings of Indian origin ruled Bactria since 6000 years before Alexander’s invasion of India. In 1793 he declared that he had solved the riddle of ancient Indian chronology, stating that Sandrokottas referred to in the accounts of Megasthanes (Greek writer of the 4th century BC) was Chandragupta Maurya of the Indian Puranas and other literatures like Mahavamsa. According to the Greek accounts Alexander’s invasion of India lasted from 327 BC to 323 BC. As per the Greek accounts the Indian king Sandrokottas who defeated Alexander’s successor Selukos took over as the king of Palibothra during 320 BC. Basing on these Greek accounts William Jones concluded that Sandrokottas and Palibotra of the Greek accounts were Chandragupta Maurya and Pataliputra respectively. Jones took 320 BC as the year of Chandragupta Maurya’s coronation. This is called the sheet anchor of ancient Indian chronology. Thus having bridged the gulf between the chronologies of India and Europe, European Indologists prepared the ancient Indian chronology on the basis of this sheet anchor.

First of all it may be noticed that primary sources are of cardinal importance in historical research. Secondary sources regarding a datum could of course be relied upon but only if the primary source is available. But in the case of Megasthanese’s Indica no body ever had seen or read it in original. Suffice it to say, there is no such a work as Indica. In fact our knowledge about the Indica is based just on hearsay. We come to hear of the Indica just from the information provided by the later Classical scholars like Arrien, Strabo, Plutarch, Curtius etc. And whatever smattering we have about Indica is from the few quotations the later classical writers give in their writings. Indica as we get it at present is thus only a collection of the copious extracts which these classical writers say they quoted from Megasthanese.

Authenticity itself of the Indica could thus be questioned on the basis of its own absence, let alone any statement or finding based on it. Indica is just a myth and any writing based on this myth could be none other than fiction. Myth won’t make history. This is the opinion of the methodology of history.

Even if just hearsay about the Indica shall be used to write the history of ancient India overlooking the inevitability of the primary source, still Jones’ Sheet Anchor of Indian chronology remains a grope in the dark. It is the conclusion of an intellectual slapdash rather than meticulous research. Mere verbal semblances between Palibothra and Pataliputra, and Sandrokottas and Chandragupta (Maurya) made Jones conclude that Palibothra was nothing other than Pataliputra and Sandrokottas, Chandragupta Maurya. But had Jones been a bit keener in his observations and reasonable in his research he would not have concluded so. It was indeed an inattentive conclusion, a lax finding. To prove this argument right we may take some of the following and relevant portions from the Classical accounts.

1. Prassi surpasses in power … their capital being Palibothra, a very large and wealthy city, after which some call the people itself Palibothri … nay even the whole tract along the Ganges.1

Arrain, depending on Megasthenes’ and other Greek writers’ account writes, “Megasthenes stayed in the court of Sandrokottas. He also stayed in the court of Porus. Porus was a mightier king than Sandrokottas”. This means that Sandrokottas was only an insignificant king before Porus who was the ruler of the territory comprising only two districts. Thus the Sandrokottas referred to in Classical accounts was only a dwarf compared to the Emperor Chandragupta Maurya of the Puranic and Buddhist accounts. Sandrokottas of the Classical accounts was not Chandragupta Maurya.

According to this statement Palibothra had lain (from the north-west) before the Ganges-Yamuna confluence. But Pataliputra or modern Patna lies south-east of the confluence.

2. The situation of Palibothra is given as 425 miles from the confluence of Ganges and Jomanese and 738 miles from the mouth of Ganges where it meets the sea.2

This argument is again buttressed up by Arrain’s account that “Thence to the confluence the Jomanese and Ganges 625 miles and to the town of Palibothra 425 miles” This means that the confluence was 200 miles ahead of Palibothra. But Pataliputra was ahead of the confluence and not 200 miles before it. Thus taking the geographical location of Palibothra as given in Classical accounts it may be concluded that Palibothra of Megasthenes and Arrain was not Patiliputra.

3. The people in whose country this city-Palibothra is situated, is the most distinguished in all India and is called Prassi. The king in addition to his family name must adopt the surname Palibothras, as Sandrokottas for instance did, to whom Megasthanese was sent as an embassy.3

But nowhere in Indian literature or any other source material related to the Mauryan dynasty it is mentioned that the Mauryan kings assumed any dynastic title. Here also it is fallacious to take Sandrokottas for Chandragupta Maurya.

4. About Sandrokottas, it is said that he was the greatest among the Indian kings and he was the king of Prassi whose capital was Palibothra.4

5. Sandrokottas killed the previous king and became king himself.5

It is true that Chandragupta Maurya had defeated the early Magadhan king Dhana Nanda. But he did not kill the latter. The literature on the other hand informs that Chandragupta Maurya had allowed him to quit Magadha taking as much money and material as could be carried in a cart.

6. Seleukas Nikator had given his daughter in marriage to Sandrokottas.6

But this reference is also not agreeable with the history of Chandragupta Maurya. Such a thing is not mentioned by any of the contemporary Indian evidences.

7. Heracles (identified by historians as Surakulesh Vishnu) was the founder … of no small number of cities, the most renowned and greatest of which was Palibothra.7

Here it is mentioned that Palibothra was founded by Surakulesh Vishnu. It may be noted that Pataliputra on the other hand was founded by Udain. Again it might be noticed that the capital of Magadha up to the time of the Andhras was Girivraja or Rajagriha and not Pataliputra (which again was not Palibothra of Megasthenes)

8. The river Jomanes flows through the Palibothri into the Ganges between the towns of Methora (Mathura) and Carisobaras (Kalisarovar according to the British Indologists).8

But it may be noticed that Yamuna is not flowing through Pataliputra. Yamuna flows into the Ganges even before the Ganges reaches Patna or Pataliputra.

Besides here it is to be correctly understood as to the Greek pronunciation of the Sanskrit name. It is to be noticed that Pataliputra can’t be written as Palibothra if to place our argument regarding this on the Greek word Palibothra itself. The letter ‘p’ in Patali is written in Greek as English ‘p’ only. Then why the ‘p’ in Putra is changed into Greek ‘b’ is surprising. There is no instance of the Sanskrit ‘p’ is changed into Greek ‘b’. It is thus clear that putra is not bothra. Pataliputra is not Palibothra of the Greek accounts.

All these possible and convincing arguments likely to come up against the sheet anchor given by the European Indologists notwithstanding, this chronological setting still continues to dominate the study of ancient Indian history. Classical accounts are still relied to construct the history of India’s past as well as its chronology even as they often disagree with each other and contain mutually contradictory statements regarding incidents or places and persons. Even the very question regarding the originality of Indica as noted earlier combined with the ambiguity of these accounts would suffice to make one doubt the reliability of these accounts. Yet the modern Indologists continue to stereotype William Jones fallacy.

Dr. R. C. Majumdar, an authority of Ancient Indian history states that “… a perusal of the different accounts [of the Greek writers] raises grave doubts whether they are all derived from a common reliable source”. He says that though Megasthanes’ “Indica, or collection of fragments preserved in later writings, has long enjoyed the reputation of being a rich mine of useful and authentic information about India, … the question of how far the fragments usually ascribed to him, can really be accepted as such, and may be relied upon as authentic” is something to be addressed with caution and utmost care.

9. In fact many authorities including H. C. Raychaudhuri doubted the reliability of the Classical accounts of India though he too followed the British Indologists in many of his writings including his masterpiece, Political History of Ancient India. The fallacy of Jones’ Sheet anchor being thus clearly established in the light of the Classical accounts, it would be interesting to enquire whether there was a place in India that would agree with Palibothra of the Greek accounts.

Jones and his followers mistook Prassi as Prachya which in Sanskrit means the Easter country. Jones took the statement in the Greek accounts that “Palibothra stood at the junction of Ganges and Erannoboas” and believed that Erannaboas was Hiranyabahu which was also called Sone. River Sone no doubt was also known as Hiranyabahu.

10. The conclusion of Jones thus appears correct and justifiable but for another statement of Megasthenes wherein he describes Erannoboas and Sone as different rivers. Megasthenes has stated, “Nineteen rivers are said to flow into it (Ganges), of which … the Condochates, Erannoboas, Coseagus and Sonus are navigable”.

11. Thus with Megasthenes himself having described Erannoboas and Sone as different rivers Jones’ attempt at identifying Erannoboas with river Sone to locate Palibothra near latter in Eastern India proves untenable. Megasthenes’ Palibothra was not in Eastern India. His identification of the city of Palibothra, the country of Prassi and the river Erannoboas thus proves the best examples of the hasty conclusions he slap-dashed to without checks and counterchecks of the data.

Jones Calls Megasthenes ignorant and inattentive. But it could hardly be believed that a person of such a high office as that of an ambassador was ignorant and inattentive. Megasthenes was well familiar with the places he visited in India. According to him “The Indus skirts the frontiers of Prassi”.

12. It may be noticed that Mahabharata refers to the country of the Sindhu Pulindakas along with Chedi, Vatsa, Karusha and Bhoja. (chedivatsa karushaschabhoja sindhupulindaka) which situated in the Madhyadesa. Megasthenes might have meant this Sindhu-Pulinda of Madhyadesa which in later times was called Kali Sindh. It is interesting to note that Mac Crindle’s English translation of Schwanbeck’s Indica shows one Sindhu river to the south of Parnasha and Chambal which join Yamuna. The Prassi of Megasthenes must have situated near the Sindhu Pulindaka country and around this Sindhu river. (Again it may at least be noticed that there was no river called Sindhu near Patna or Pataliputra. The Sindhu and its tributaries flow or end up in the North-western India itself. Besides archaeology has it that many rivers of the north-western India changed their course, and some of them even submerged or dried up.

According to the archaeological excavations conducted by the Indian and Pakistani archaeologists and geologists River Yamuna and some of the present tributaries of the River Indus flowed into River Saraswati of which some remaining channels are still called Saraswati, Sarsuti etc. Taking these archaeological, geological and other findings which have come up so far we may believe that there might have been a certain minor river which the people of Kali-Sindh called Sindhu. Though unknown to other parts of India and also incomparably insignificant before the then mighty Sindhu or Indus River, Megasthenes who stayed in Palibothra for a good number of days must have noticed this minor river that might have skirted the frontiers of Parssi.)

According to Classical accounts the river Jomanes flows through the Palibothri into the Ganges between the towns of Methora (Mathura) and Carisobaras (not Kalisarovar as taken by European Indologists but Karushasarovara).13 Thus as previously said Karusha was also located in Madhyadesa, quiet near to Sindhu Pulinda, i.e., between Sindhu Pulinda and Prayaga. Taking the Classical accounts in corroboration with the study of the geography of the Madhyadesa it could be concluded that Palibothra, the Prassi capital was near Mathura, Karusha Sarovara and Sindhu Pulinda or Kali Sindh. Palibothra was not Pataliputra as William Jones mistook.

Then, was there an ancient kingdom in the Madhyadesa that agrees with the Megasthenes’ description of Palibothra? The question brings us to the country of Prabhadraka, Prabhadra or Paribhadra which reigned in Madhyadesa from the very Mahabharata times. Certainly it must be the Palibothra of Megasthenes where he is said to have stayed as an ambassador. The Mahabharata, Parasara’s Jyotisha-Samhita, Varahamihira’s Brihatsamhita and Puranas equally refer to the kingdom of Prabhadrakas. As the later literary works than the Mahabharata make mention of the Paribhadrakas it could well be assumed that they continued to rule and were known to the writers of the Gupta period. They also allude to the king called Chandraketu as the head of the Prabhadraka Kshatriyas. But it is yet to be ascertained whether he was the Sandrokottas of the Greek accounts. The Bhadraka kingdom or Paribhadra and its people, the Paribhadrakas or Palibhadrakas must be the Palibothra and, the Palibothris of Megasthenes’ accounts.

Thus while studying the Megasthenes’ accounts one could come up with the following conclusions. Yamuna was flowing through Prabhadra or Palibhadra, the capital of the Prassi kingdom which was 200 miles from Prayaga on the way to Mathura. Paribhadra or Palibhadra was near Sindhu-Pulinda or Kali Sindh. The Karusha Sarovara was between Sindhu-Pulinda and Prayaga. Palibothra could thus be Paribhadra rather than Pataliputra.

Hence the need to neglect a non- existing datum like Indica and restructure the chronology of ancient India depending on original and authentic sources.

Foot Notes
  1. Pliny, II, 22; Pandit Bhagavadatta, Bharatavarsha ka brihat itihas, quoted by Shriram Sathe, Dates of the Buddha, Hyderabad, 1987, p. 16.
  2. R. C. Majumdar, Classical Accounts, Calcutta, 1960, p. 130.
  3. Ibid.
  4. Ibid. pp. 4, 12.
  5. V. A. Smith, Early History of India, Oxford, 1924, p. 124.
  6. Mac Crindle, Ancient India as described by Megasthanese and Arrian, Calcutta, 1926)
  7. Diodorus Selucos, General Description of India, Book II, 39. Also see Pandit Bhagavadatta, Bharatavarsha ka brihat itihas, quoted by Shriram Sathe, Dates of the Buddha, Hyderabad, 1987, p. 16.
  8. Shriram Sathe, Op. Cit, p. 16.
  9. R. C. Majumdar, op. cit, pp. XX-XXIV; Also see appendix – I.
  10. sono hiranyabahu syat, Amarakosa. 1-10-33.
  11. Pliny, VI. 22, John Bostock and T. R. Riley (trans.), The Natural History of Pliny, London, 1890; R. C. Majumdar, op. cit, p. 341.
  12. Frag. LVI. Pliny. 22, Quoted in Shriram Sathe, op. cit. p. 104.
  13. Shriram Sathe, Op. Cit, p. 16.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

RajeshA, In the PaLibothra/PaRibhadra essay what if the Sanskrit R became Greek L. Then

paribhadra = palibhadra.

Bhadra and bothra seem to sound the same.

Maybe Megasthanes had proununciation issues.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

Sheet-Anchor of Indian History

Books for the Library

Image

Publication Date: 1966
Author: Purushottam Nagesh Oak (P.N. Oak)
Some Blunders Of Indian Historical Research [Google]
According to the chronology of the Magadha rulers found in the Puranas, Somadhi (Marjari) was the Magadha ruler at the time of Mahabharata War. His dynasty had 22 kings. They ruled 1006 years. They were succeeded by five rulers of the Pradyota dynasty, who ruled for 138 years. Then followed 10 rulers of the Shishunag family, who ruled for the next 360 years. Of these 37 rulers the 31st (i.e. the fourth of the Shishunag dynasty) Kshemajit was a contemporary of Lord Buddha's father, Shuddhodana. Kshemajit ruled from 1892 to 1852 B.C. It was during this period in which Buddha was born. It was during the reign of Bimbisara, the fifth Shishunag ruler (1852-1814 B.C.), when Prince Siddhartha became the enlightened Buddha. Then it was during the reign of King Ajatashatru (1814-1787 B.C.) when Buddha left this world. Thus, he was born in 1887 B.C., renounced the world in 1858 B.C., and died in 1807 B.C.
Last edited by RajeshA on 13 Sep 2012 01:20, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

ramana wrote:RajeshA, In the PaLibothra/PaRibhadra essay what if the Sanskrit R became Greek L. Then

paribhadra = palibhadra.

Bhadra and bothra seem to sound the same.

Maybe Megasthanes had proununciation issues.
All Greeks had pronunciation issues! Not just that, that all had to first hellenize the word, in order to even have their mouths pronounce the word!
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

ramana wrote:Nilesh Oak, I am a little foggy about Arundhati walking before Vasishta (Sapta rishi constellation) nugget. Per my reading the Mahabharata, just before the war Veda Vyasa visits Dritharastra and gives all the ill omens that point to a great war that would cause the Kshatriyas to perish. Among the omens he lists the above one and something about Rohini. Is this what you refer to in your book?

Thanks in advance.
ramana
Ramana ji,
Yes, that is exactly the reference you are referring to. Bhishma 2:31-32. I am including one about Rohini as well, since you mentioned it. Words are bit mispelled due to font/nagari conversion issue.

31 या चैषा विश्रुता राजंस तरैलॊक्ये साधु संमता
अरुन्धती तयाप्य एष वसिष्ठः पृष्ठतः कृतः
32 रॊहिणीं पीडयन्न एष सथितॊ राजञ शनैश्चरः
वयावृत्तं लक्ष्म सॊमस्य भविष्यति महद भयम
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Thanks, ramana

I know Vyasa says its bad omen but why? He goes on to give markers of social decay which we see even now.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Nilesh Oak »

ramana wrote:Thanks, ramana

I know Vyasa says its bad omen but why? He goes on to give markers of social decay which we see even now.
This is not the only place where bad omens are mentioned. Before anything dramatic/bad is going to happen, omens (bad and good, depending on circumstances) are mentioned in Mahabharata but also Ramayana.

Why? - It appears Vyasa, the poet of the epic, has employed various instances (factual but maybe imaginary too) as an instrument (alankar, metaphor, simile, analogies...etc.) in describing or as preamble to key instances. Such omens are described (even repeated...e.g. rain of blood and flesh, Murti's of Gods smiling or moving) in describign many instances within MBH.. not just before the war.

On another but related topic.. anytime an instance, which may not be easily digested by listeners or readers or rare for soical polity' is been described (e..g Draupadi marrying 5 Pandavas), chapters/and sub chapters of MBH text, see a need to take a tangent, go back to past lives of these personage and 'justify' why it happened what it happened. I see it as Monday morning Quarterback, but one can interpret them in many other ways.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by ramana »

Maybe we should follow-up about this in the Epics thread.....
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by brihaspati »

ManishH wrote:
shiv wrote:

Sorry shiv, Palatalization is a natural human tendency found in a multitude of spoken and historically attested languages. Much as you try, this is not something you can brush under the carpet.

B-ji: you asked why only the first phoneme becomes palatalized in PIE kʷekʷlos > Skt cakra. That is exactly the effect of front vowel 'e'.
Historically spoken languages are "reconstructed" from currently spoken not necessarily related languages.

I did not ask you "why". I merely stated that the "change" would be claimed on that basis. However the question that was put forward was far more fundamental and you have avoided answering such questions before, or at most claimed not everything "is deterministic" or "random whims".

(1) if sound change laws are so detrministic and unidirectional - why could there be original/beginning words in exactly opposite direction to that what would be expected by your sound-change laws? if this is such a universal human tendency, then such contrary-to-human-tendency words could not have originated.

(2) the mirculous and exceptional "rhotacization" of RV onlee : PIE supposedly uses "l" in keklos/cycle/ from which RV changes to "R" becuase of its tendency to "rhotacization" and this is not a Steppenwolf/European tendency but closer to India tendency, in a group that moved from Steppes - and then drops rhotacization again, to give rise to "lhotacization" in subsequent successor dialects in India. If L-R-L is possible - why assume onlee from Steppe-L to Indian L? Why not the other way around? Then you will raise archeology. But that archeology is again dubious in providing support for the steppenwolf giving language+horse+chariot to all and sundry theory.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4496
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Prem Kumar »

Thanks for the responses ManishH. The insight into verb roots is very interesting. And I do agree - a verb root level connection looks like a "strong" one, pointing to a sibling or a parent-child relationship.

This brings us to the question of hierarchy for languages with such strong connections

When we talk about a PIE tree (or any reconstruction for that matter), the one thing I am skeptical about is the Neogrammarian dictum of "sound laws have no exceptions." As I pointed out in yesterday's Wikipedia article, there are several known exceptions. So, this dictum did fail the test of falsifiability. What I dont know is "how frequently do these exceptions occur compared to how frequently are these laws upheld?". That will give an idea of the relative strength of these laws. Please share if you have some data on this front.

Let me propose an alternate hypothesis to the "no exceptions" law. Its called the "sound laws are state-dependent" principle. Its only a theory, of course. What I mean by this hypothesis is the following:

a) If a new sound is introduced into an existing population, it will be modified by the phonetic-ability-state of this population

b) The factors affecting the change are their existing vocabulary and phonetic ability. Perhaps even physical structures of the mouth, jaw and throat due to genetic differences. This change may or may not follow universal sound laws.

c) If for example, a new sound is introduced that has a similar pronounciation structure in the existing vocabulary (in relatively large number of words), it will likely be reproduced without corruption. If not, it will "settle" into the nearest phonetic neighbor that is prevalent "in that population". This settling down (or corruption) may either follow the "universal sound law" or it may not. It depends on the population's state.

I am not saying that sound laws cannot be universal. Some rules may be universally applicable. But we cant assume that all rules apply everywhere.

My hypothesis makes things messy, but I feel is more representative of reality. It also demands more data (i.e. knowledge of the state of a language in the recipient population) before making predictions.

The "universal sound laws" hypothesis is clean but is an idealization. You dont have to worry about the population/language you apply it to. That's why you can build a tree with it. But its a hypothetical tree. In science too, idealizations are useful in building models. But they are only pointers and care should be taken with regards to the conclusions that you draw from them & the situations you can apply them to. The big problem I have with the tree model is that this idealization is being treated as truth and is used to make further predictions. The errors add up.

I had also noted yesterday that the tree model most likely has a Judeo-Christian theological basis to it. Not that its a disqualification by itself, but its a pointer to why linguists started off with the tree assumption in the first place and resist changing it (due to career reasons or worldview reasons or simply because the alternate hypotheses are too hard)
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13368
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by A_Gupta »

ManishH,

Still patiently waiting for an answer - the Paul Thieme article argues that the presence of Varuna and dual Nasatyas in the Mitanni treaty makes it Vedic or post-Vedic. This contradicts the phonetic argument. What is your response to that?
Locked