China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Sep 2012 13:47

I welcome and invite Chinese Air Force and Army to conduct more, and much larger, exercises in Tibet and adjoining areas. And please to put up videos on the internet and splash images across the WWW. By their earlier aggressive stance, they managed to get GOI to sanction 2 x mountain divisions; these exercises will finally push the zombies inhabiting the power corridors and senile who form the China Study Group to realize the true threat posed by Chinese and permit raising for more formations like MSC and new artillery division.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 15 Sep 2012 14:10

^^ That's correct, we need the Chinese more than they would ever need us, but we have such kind of breed of politicians that they will think that the forces always cry wolf and instead the chinese do nothing. It will be exiciting to see chinese try to do a little Kargil (although what will happen to them is another story) , that may force the big decision maker MMS (who just announced big FDI in retail) to possibly allocate more money and resources for credible defence.
But, without the chinese doing nothing, its boring to see Strategists and the Forces trying to explain netas and babus to pay attention, while these animals are busy eating.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 16 Sep 2012 09:36

Seems like these are first confirmed pics of the J-21/F-60 ??

SOURCE

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Sep 2012 11:19

Oh this just keeps getting better. Another threat to counter in the coming years.

Good looking aircraft though.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Sep 2012 11:31

Photochop or Real ?

Some years back there was news that someone managed to steal JSF design from LM computers , J-21 looks so much closer to JSF'ish type.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Sep 2012 11:46

Looks real to me. It may be a photoshop, but I would bet against it. And it is NOT a photoshop, then we are looking at the first iteration of a serious threat down the line...

Don · Post by **Don** » 16 Sep 2012 11:51

Don · Post by **Don** » 16 Sep 2012 12:00

Some wet dream....

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 16 Sep 2012 13:28

Austin wrote:Photochop or Real ?

Some years back there was news that someone managed to steal JSF design from LM computers , J-21 looks so much closer to JSF'ish type.

Has some F-22 characteristics as well, most notably the giant vertical stabilizers and of course the twin engines.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 16 Sep 2012 13:31

New Chinese Stealth Carrier Fighter F60 a.k.a. J21 Spotted!!

Chinese in just 18 months were able to put together their second Stealth Fighter after J-20 made it first flight in last Jan , but what was funny was that many western Chinese military observers had dismissed recent speculation over the development of China’s second stealth fighter J-21, after military fans posted pictures of a mysterious airframe covered by camouflage online.

All i can say to HAL and ADA is Stop Taking and start delivering

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 16 Sep 2012 13:51

A few observations:

1) This plane appears quite a bit smaller than the J-20, shorter at least. There doesn't seem to be space for side weapons bays, and the canopy is not one piece, so some load and stealth is sacrificed compared to the J-20 at the very least.

2) The plane has twin nose-wheels already, and since it's way too small to be a heavy striker, it's likely that this plane is designed to be carrier-borne first and foremost.

3) Kind of minor, but there's a pretty big gap between the fuselage and the engines, maybe some Radar/IR-suppression device will be installed. Perhaps saw-toothed nozzles like the J-20?

Don · Post by **Don** » 16 Sep 2012 14:02

DavidD wrote:A few observations:

1) This plane appears quite a bit smaller than the J-20, shorter at least. There doesn't seem to be space for side weapons bays, and the canopy is not one piece, so some load and stealth is sacrificed compared to the J-20 at the very least.

2) The plane has twin nose-wheels already, and since it's way too small to be a heavy striker, it's likely that this plane is designed to be carrier-borne first and foremost.

3) Kind of minor, but there's a pretty big gap between the fuselage and the engines, maybe some Radar/IR-suppression device will be installed. Perhaps saw-toothed nozzles like the J-20?

Pakfa cockpit is not one piece either, so it can't be a big deal.

Chengdu has the J 20, Now Shenyang has the J 21, don't be surprise if Xian comes up with their own next.....

I think the J-21 is primarily for export. Its a private venture by Shenyang not backed by the government.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Sep 2012 14:23

Probably psy ops. The Chinese are showing their anti Japanese feelings. Might be a good time to reveal a new plane. The last time we saw such a thing was when Gates was in China. They want to show themselves as holding a few cards. This won't be superior to the J 20, so the oomph factor is considerable less.

From an Indian perspective, we should not expect this to be more of a challenge than the J 20. As the F 35 experience has shown, building a small 5th gen fighter has a lot of disadvantages. The AMCA seems to be avoiding this pitfall by calling itself "medium" from day 1. This could also boost AMCA funding. MMS has made his move; Antony, your turn

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 16 Sep 2012 14:33

Don wrote:

Does this fly ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Sep 2012 14:40

DavidD wrote:Has some F-22 characteristics as well, most notably the giant vertical stabilizers and of course the twin engines.

Yes thats true , even the J-20 has a large VS but movable this one appears to be static

BTW why is there a gap between the engine nozzle and fuselage does it have a functional engine or is it a full mock up

Don · Post by **Don** » 16 Sep 2012 15:23

nakul wrote: As the F 35 experience has shown, building a small 5th gen fighter has a lot of disadvantages. The AMCA seems to be avoiding this pitfall by calling itself "medium" from day 1.

Lol it does not matter if you called it "medium" or whatever. The fact is JSF, J 21, AMCA are all smaller size stealth plane which means shorter range and smaller pay load. You can't change the rule physics.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Sep 2012 15:40

You can certainly miniaturise a lot of things. America does have an advantage in the field of electronics. I don't think India & China can make an F 35 yet. In fact it would be foolish to go down that path. If the Chinese are doing so, India does not have much to worry about. I believe AMCA is going to be larger than F 35. But I will wait before getting the exact measurements of J 21, AMCA. China would need a fighter that can open the doors (like the F 22 for US, FGFA for India). Somehow J 20 does not fit that role. Having an F 35 without an F 22 for the air superiority role is suicidal IMHO. Unless a 3rd 5th gen plane is cooking up in somewhere in China, this plane is trying to fit into the shoes of a larger plane.

wong · Post by **wong** » 16 Sep 2012 19:47

^^^^

AMCA is vaporware. How long did LCA take, 40 years?? We'll all be dead before AMCA.

The F-35's problems have nothing to do with its size. It was the original design parameter of having a single platform satisfy all the future Air Force, Navy and Marines fighter requirements (which are all different). The US Navy never wanted the F-35. It's always had twin engines fighters for carriers, because it's a simple reliability issue with a single engine. Add the Marine vertical takeoff requirement and of course the F-35 is a disaster. China doesn't have any of these problems.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Sep 2012 20:20

AMCA is vaporware. How long did LCA take, 40 years?? We'll all be dead before AMCA.

How old are you? My respects glandpa. Take care to exclude red meat from your diet. Not good at this age

The F-35's problems have nothing to do with its size. It was the original design parameter of having a single platform satisfy all the future Air Force, Navy and Marines fighter requirements (which are all different). The US Navy never wanted the F-35. It's always had twin engines fighters for carriers, because it's a simple reliability issue with a single engine. Add the Marine vertical takeoff requirement and of course the F-35 is a disaster. China doesn't have any of these problems.

As a previous poster said, "The fact is JSF, J 21, AMCA are all smaller size stealth plane which means shorter range and smaller pay load. You can't change the rule physics." Since he knows the measurements of vaporware, you better trust him

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 16 Sep 2012 20:28

wong wrote:^^^^

AMCA is vaporware. How long did LCA take, 40 years?? We'll all be dead before AMCA.

This type of statement happen Wong when u start ignoring facts. Thief always die thief but hard earner always get respect frm all.

Time prevails

Don · Post by **Don** » 16 Sep 2012 20:33

nakul wrote:As a previous poster said, "The fact is JSF, J 21, AMCA are all smaller size stealth plane which means shorter range and smaller pay load. You can't change the rule physics." Since he knows the measurements of vaporware, you better trust him

Good thing about vaporware is you can make it any size you want. You can even call it "medium" even if its small.

Now lets go back to topic...

John · Post by **John** » 16 Sep 2012 20:36

Singha wrote:indeed the 051C design seems to be a evolutionary dead end . since Rus considers the S300 as legacy these days, I am sure all the tech and production tools for that family has been sold so that china can produce a naval SAM of 100km range using bits and pieces + local work and close the gap.
and the fruit of that is the HHQ-9 long range naval SAM.

Problem comes from comparing IN vessels to PLAN who design vessels of same class for different purpose for example if P-15A was primarily fitted for AAW similar to 052D, if we replace the RPK-8 and a hanger for more cells. You can easily accommodate 128 LR-SAM cells along with existing 16 launchers for Brahmos.

wong · Post by **wong** » 16 Sep 2012 20:45

nakul wrote:
AMCA is vaporware. How long did LCA take, 40 years?? We'll all be dead before AMCA.
How old are you? My respects glandpa. Take care to exclude red meat from your diet. Not good at this age

The F-35's problems have nothing to do with its size. It was the original design parameter of having a single platform satisfy all the future Air Force, Navy and Marines fighter requirements (which are all different). The US Navy never wanted the F-35. It's always had twin engines fighters for carriers, because it's a simple reliability issue with a single engine. Add the Marine vertical takeoff requirement and of course the F-35 is a disaster. China doesn't have any of these problems.
As a previous poster said, "The fact is JSF, J 21, AMCA are all smaller size stealth plane which means shorter range and smaller pay load. You can't change the rule physics." Since he knows the measurements of vaporware, you better trust him

You realize that the life expectancy in your country is only 65'ish (look it up if you don't believe me). So assuming most people here are over 25 and AMCA takes 40 years like LCA, yes most of you here will be dead before AMCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Sep 2012 20:49

The problem with Elephants are not the same with Dragons. Dragons are giants and almost non-existent now. Whereas Elephants don't move fast, and are not fantasies.. but will deliver what is needed for living. It can not only safeguard itself and its family, but also the forest from wild beasts (terrorists crossing into peaceful India forest, and destroying peace crossing yellow sea). Most importantly, Elephants leave a gene and behavior trail to follow up for the baby elephants to follow. They are well ordained and cultural group. They can also secretly communicate in stealth., and destroy the enemy only when they are disturbed.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Sep 2012 21:07

Good thing about vaporware is you can make it any size you want. You can even call it "medium" even if its small.

Now lets go back to topic...

The "medium" is a term from its designers. Not an individual. It would be helpful if you can share some data of the J 21. The pic with people shows its size. If we can't comment from the little info that's available, then I hope the Chinese govt shares additional info.

More info here http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09 ... ealth-jet/

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 16 Sep 2012 22:28

Austin wrote:
DavidD wrote:Has some F-22 characteristics as well, most notably the giant vertical stabilizers and of course the twin engines.
Yes thats true , even the J-20 has a large VS but movable this one appears to be static

BTW why is there a gap between the engine nozzle and fuselage does it have a functional engine or is it a full mock up

The engines look like the RD-93, and it makes no sense to tow it out if it isn't at least gonna taxi. Rumor is that it'll make its first flight perhaps in as little as 2 weeks. Not sure about the gap really, my theory is that they're gonna put some sort of radar/IR suppressing thing on it.

The previous estimate is that this plane would not be a whole lot smaller than the J-20. Right now it's looking considerably smaller, but looks can be deceiving. Don't forget that many thought the J-20 was some 23+ meter behemoth when it first came out. Turned out it's actually right around Su-27 sized. IMO it'll be a bit longer and thinner(fuselage-wise) than the F-35, but I've got no hard evidence to back that up yet.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 17 Sep 2012 03:43

Boy these chinese are either superfast at photoshopping or really produce fast. Are these photos real.

Don · Post by **Don** » 17 Sep 2012 04:32

bhavani wrote:

Boy these chinese are either superfast at photoshopping or really produce fast. Are these photos real.

CG....

Don · Post by **Don** » 17 Sep 2012 04:39

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... e20a1cb3e5

China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.

Posted by Bill Sweetman 9:38 AM on Sep 16, 2012

The US defense secretary is on his way to Beijing. Time to unveil a new stealth fighter...

Short take-off and vertical landing has been one of the two driving requirements behind the Joint Strike Fighter design, the other being stealth.

STOVL dictated the single engine, and the STOVL solution chosen for the F-35 demands a big vertical bay behind the cockpit, and a main engine located unusually far forward, to keep the driveshaft length within reason and to put the lift-cruise nozzle in the right longitudinal location for balance.

This constrains the weapon-bay volume and shape, and effectively subdivides the bays into four zones - two AAM bays and two heavy store sections. As Amy Butler reports in Aviation Week this week, too, the weapon bays, wrapped around the engine, get hot and noisy.

If you ever wondered what a JSF might look without those constraints, we now have a live, physical example.

Unfortunately.....it's Chinese.

One of the photos of the new Shenyang stealth fighter, apparently designated J-31, that appeared on Chinese defense websites over the weekend is such a colossal gimme that it has to have been deliberate. Direct head-on shot? Check. Commercially available aircraft tug? Check. Extreme telephoto, so that perspective effects are lost in the noise? Check.

Sheesh, guys, can't you make it a challenge?

The J-31's wingspan is an F-35-like 37.5 feet, unless my Soviet-watching skills have deserted me. This makes it smaller than the F-22 and considerably smaller than the Chengdu J-20. A good early guess is that the engines are Klimov RD-93s - imported in large numbers for the JF-17 - with a Chinese-built engine to follow.

Turning to the side view of the jet, it looks as if the engines are installed to the rear of the bulkhead that carries the main landing gears. And with no lift fan bay to worry about, the designers have been able to install long weapon bays on the centerline: what will be interesting is how the inlet ducts are routed to optimize internal space.

Overall, the most important point is that the J-31 does not look like a competitor for the J-20 - but as a complement to it. Which, again, might point to the new fighter being a JSF to the J-20's F-22.

And if you wonder about the detail similarities of the shape to the F-22 and F-35, remember this quote from 2010:

In the past year (2009) alone, Lockheed Martin found “six to eight companies” among its subcontractors “had been totally compromised – emails, their networks, everything” according to Lockheed Martin chief information security officer Anne Mullins.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Sep 2012 04:57

Don wrote:Boy these chinese are either superfast at photoshopping or really produce fast. Are these photos real./quote]
CG....

CG -> Copy Gen? like in next gen!?

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 17 Sep 2012 08:12

what the heck is going on ?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 17 Sep 2012 08:40

kmc_chacko wrote:what the heck is going on ?

Yes.

I hope we don't get to say that during the next Chinese attack on our country.

Despite the CGI nature of the airborne J-31 with weapons, it is rapidly becoming apparent to me about the exponential growth rate of the Chinese Aerospace Industry. Beg, borrow or steal, they have managed to put together an industry that is delivering products at alarming rates.

Makes me wonder how many other projects are there on the verge of completion that will raise eyebrows for BRFites in the near future.

zlin · Post by **zlin** » 17 Sep 2012 09:15

PLAN 16

http://ww4.sinaimg.cn/large/68dd9d31tw1dwvyo7hdi8j.jpg

http://ww2.sinaimg.cn/large/68dd9d31tw1dwvyolrgmgj.jpg

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/up ... 918936.jpg

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 17 Sep 2012 09:38

vivek_ahuja wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:what the heck is going on ?
Yes.

I hope we don't get to say that during the next Chinese attack on our country.

Despite the CGI nature of the airborne J-31 with weapons, it is rapidly becoming apparent to me about the exponential growth rate of the Chinese Aerospace Industry. Beg, borrow or steal, they have managed to put together an industry that is delivering products at alarming rates.

Makes me wonder how many other projects are there on the verge of completion that will raise eyebrows for BRFites in the near future.

Vivek, it *looks* that way. Right now, there is no way of knowing. But given the absurdity and lies that characterize other things coming out of China (economic statistics, etc.), there is good reason to be skeptical. Besides which, between the upgraded MKI's, the Rafale's, and the FGFA, there is no reason for India to panic. Honestly, I suspect that the Chinese are worrying about the modernization plans of the Indian military. Because the IAF focuses on quality, it can be aggressive in a way that the PLAAF cannot. (How nervous would an MKK pilot be, knowing that if he encountered an MKI, he would probably be killed?)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2012 09:50

well I had long ago predicted the J20 was not alone and we could expect smaller A2A oriented planes soon and this is one. has all the right looks and taper shape to be a good a2a bird. not hamstrung as bill sweetman says by the JSF constraints, two small rafale style engines will have created the reqd thrust than a huge F136 class engine and created the space for a internal bay with atleast 4 LRAAM capacity.
and its likely already done a few test flights or will soon....in that way its 10 yrs ahead of the AMCA. and it can be produced in volume to supplement and replace the J-10 in due course. it might even have a naval version - makes sense to me.

I will make another prediction - we can expect a 'heavy' A2A fighter of the Pakfa class is being worked on as well, perhaps by the j20 team, perhaps by another team...being all govt owned there is no restriction on sharing data and people if the govt mandates it. it will likely follow the same design as this bird, but bigger in size with more internal fuel , probably raptor style side bays and bigger engines of the Al31 class. I would expect its formal 'unveiling' in say 1 yr from now when the j20 is well enough along to free up serious resources for the cheen raptor. it also depends on when the next US secy of state or presidential visit is scheduled

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2012 10:45

looking at the legs of a line of people in one pic visible beneath the fuselage, a very senior PLAAF commander seemed to be visiting and perhaps sitting inside the cockpit taking a look while his guide would stand on the ladder and explain.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 17 Sep 2012 12:13

http://imgur.com/a/Y7oIp

Look how peacefully Chinese are protesting against Japan.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Sep 2012 12:33

Good, good. Let the Chinese show more aircraft and more such goodies. The military rise of China is inevitable. After all, those dollars are going to be used somewhere.

All this basically means that strategy jocks will finally realize the capabilities of Dragon and not put their head in the sand like an an Ostrich. As they say, go by capabilities and not intentions. Because intentions can change overnight while capabilities take years to build.

IMO, before this decade is out, rest assured, IAF would have 250+ Rafale and Sukhois should increase in numbers as well. And PLAAF should start making transition to a true 4+ gen air force by end of this decade.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2012 12:51

May be IAF will take this as an opportunity to get in JSF into its fleet something it would have liked but missed it out in MMRCA considering the timelines.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 17 Sep 2012 13:17

Or just have more PAK FA while FGFA matures. I don't think FGFA or any other 5th gen will be available to us before 2020. RuAF is keen to induct PAK FA to reinforce their fleet. Perhaps IAF can go for a few squadrons till other solutions arrive.