Indian Naval Discussion

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Sep 2012 09:15

IN, please go with a nuclear power plant, with all that experience from Arihant trials

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 17 Sep 2012 09:33

Some major problems there...thnks for posting. Looks like 2013 it is.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2012 09:36

to replace the boilers and heavy eqpt they will probably need to cut from the flight deck down several levels to reach the engine room, hoist them out and install new eqpt before re-welding the decks back.
if the issue cannot be fixed in-place , thats what we are looking at - probably atleast a 2-3 yr delay or else induction with the understanding the top speed will be limited down to whatever the current kit can handle and living with it. since the roof of each deck has tons of piping, wiring and plumbing, each such connections will need to detached where the hole is made and then rejoined later....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2012 09:59

The news though bad looks some what suspicious all the 7 out of 8 boilers just blew up in the high speed test and just one survived , so the one survived must have been different from the rest.

Most likely these boilers are tested at land for full capacity before they are tested at sea , so likely any flaw can be traced out earlier.

Would wait till Sevmash confirms the news.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Sep 2012 10:13

^^ Worst nightmare scenario of IN w.r.t to the Vik seems to be coming true here. Going by the report, doesnt look like Vik in IN for another 2-3 years

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2012 10:47

>> Most likely these boilers are tested at land for full capacity before they are tested at sea

I hope you are right, maybe individually they are ... but it would be a very expensive testbed to line them all up on land and test thoroughly. it could be the design is fine but manufacturing was not perfect.

if its considered "safe" at say 25 knots I would live with it rather than take a 3 yr delay. but if the safe speed is only 20 knots thats not acceptable for a principal warship, even container ships will outrun it in a head to head race.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 17 Sep 2012 11:15

I hope this news is not as bad as it is made out since we need an AC urgently

just imagine what would have happened if it was made by India. what kind of comments would have been raised by all the media.
But then it was being done by a Russian company and they had sufficient time to iron all these issues by now. So
such a news coming now seems quite strange and unacceptable, since they have been making all kind of ships and submarines
with cutting edge technology for so many decades.

Do they want to give us the AC, or we just buy out the new British AC, at least we will be getting a brand new carrier and around the same time as the revised schedule of Gorshkov

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2012 11:28

well the AG did suffer a boiler explosion and fire in the late 80s before it was tied up.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Sep 2012 11:34

^^ Worst nightmare scenario of IN w.r.t to the Vik seems to be coming true here. Going by the report, doesnt look like Vik in IN for another 2-3 years

Reject that Junk. Put all wieght behind IAC and get the follow on hulls in the water ASAP. At this rate the IAC will see service before this accident prone star crossed junk.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2012 11:41

can anyone say if the Rafale-M can operate from IAC/Cavour size carriers using STOBAR mode and a decent payload?

that was the only other alternative available when the decision was made

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 17 Sep 2012 11:51

France has demonstrated it recently

http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2012/06/r ... tible.html

But the payload would be lower compared to CATOBAR. This can be worked around by using buddy buddy refuelling when taking off with less fuel.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Sep 2012 13:35

Singha wrote:>> Most likely these boilers are tested at land for full capacity before they are tested at sea

I hope you are right, maybe individually they are ... but it would be a very expensive testbed to line them all up on land and test thoroughly. it could be the design is fine but manufacturing was not perfect.

if its considered "safe" at say 25 knots I would live with it rather than take a 3 yr delay. but if the safe speed is only 20 knots thats not acceptable for a principal warship, even container ships will outrun it in a head to head race.

All-in-all nine boilers have been produced, one of them was used for land-based tests. Allegedly, as this one was not intended to go to India, heat insulation was still using asbestos, so no problems were detected during the tests. The 8 boilers on board had no asbestos, as requested by India, so the Russians (tm) replaced it with some kind of heat-resistant synthetic fiber. There are several questions to answer: how many boilers were affected by insulation meltdown and was this due to the new material used or due to faulty construction of the heat insulation layer on some of the boilers due to lagging behind schedule. Worst case scenario - 7 boilers are beyond repair due to unsuitability of the new insulator. Production, test and installation will take 2 years minimum, as there is only a single certified producer of ship boilers - Baltiysky Zavod in SPB.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 17 Sep 2012 13:55

Malfunctions detected during trials of Indian Navy aircraft carrier Vikramaditya will delay the vessel’s handover to India, the Kommersant business daily reported Monday.The Vikramaditya, formerly the Russian Navy’s Admiral Gorshkov, is to be handed over to India after ongoing sea trials following a much-delayed refit. According to the latest agreements, it was to have been handed over Dec 4, but the deadline has been postponed again until October 2013.

Link

I feel like India is funding a Tech Demonstrator on how to build AC for Russians , all shipping building experience for Russians are coming from Indian tax payers money and still we don't have AC , India should penalize Russia for Delays , when a small country like algeria returned 15 mig-29 to russia due to inferior quality , why are we so soft on them ??

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Sep 2012 13:59

The 8 boilers on board had no asbestos, as requested by India, so the Russians (tm) replaced it with some kind of heat-resistant synthetic fiber

Question. If this piece of Krapovitch has 8 boilers, why didn't we put a CAT on it and go for a CTOL ? Why are we still stuck with this STOBAR business ? We operated CATS on INS Vikrant for donkey's years. And if we didn't want CATS , WTF didn't we pull out the steam boilers and put in a more modern CODAG based propulsion instead ?

This entire VikAd /Gorshkov stinks to high heavens, with the project seeming like a scam to try and resusticate as much of the ex Soviet industrial base on Indian money, rather than actually deliver a useful product!

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 17 Sep 2012 14:00

karan_mc wrote:I feel like India is funding a Tech Demonstrator on how to build AC for Russians , all shipping building experience for Russians are coming from Indian tax payers money and still we don't have AC , India should penalize Russia for Delays , when a small country like algeria returned 15 mig-29 to russia due to inferior quality , why are we so soft on them ??

or just tell them that if it is going to take another 3 years time then it needs to be made as a nuclear powered carrier and then sent to us else no need for the carrier

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 17 Sep 2012 14:29

Frankly its time to start working on Plan B any which way. Nuclear is the way to go. and CATOBAR is a must..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2012 14:29

Aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" has a problem with the 3, but not 7 boilers - source

MOSCOW, September 17 - RIA Novosti. Sea trials of the aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" (formerly "Admiral Gorshkov"), which has upgraded Russia to India, found problems in three, not seven boilers, as previously reported, told RIA Novosti on Monday, a source in the "United Shipbuilding Corporation" (USC).

Of these failures, some media reported earlier, noting that they will affect the deadlines of the Indian Navy cruiser. Now, according to press reports, the ship will be delivered in at least October 2013, and not at the end of this year, as previously planned.

"Problems in the boilers is, they can not reach its full capacity, we are talking about three of the eight boilers," - said the source.He explained that "the plan has to ship early next week to come to the" Sevmash "for a complete examination and troubleshooting identified during testing."

"Testing for and carried out to identify the problem, they will be eliminated as soon as possible. Nevertheless, we will pass the ship, but when it happens exactly on the timing, I can not tell you," - said the source.

According to him, "we will have a fully information only when it comes to the" Sevmash "." What a number of media reports that the ship can not go yourself, is not true, the ship is taking its course, "- he added agency.

The fault sets special committee of USC. It will also decide the timing of the transfer of the ship of India and repair costs, the source said.

The source noted that the timing of the transfer of aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" the Indian side, which was scheduled for December 4 this year, "will move at least six months." Thus, the ship will be handed over until the following spring.

Also, he said, the information media that the cost of repairing the ship was 1 billion rubles, "seriously overstated."

Aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" (formerly heavy aircraft carrying cruiser "Admiral Gorshkov") was a major reconstruction in the Russian shipyard "Sevmash". The ship has a flight deck and a springboard for the takeoff of the MiG-29K is equipped with modern facilities inside the carrier extend new cable runs a total length of 2000 kilometers. The ship received new navigation and radar systems, complex communication and control aircraft. After completing the tests will give the ship crew SF crew of the Indian Navy.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 17 Sep 2012 14:37

The Hindu stated that the Viki's delivery will be delayed till October 2013 at the earliest. Time for Indian Diplomats to Squeeze Rosoboronexport for some free materials and equipment.

Or can India refuse payments, collect the funds that did go through and then buy the hulk of the Invincible and tow it to Italy or Israel for refit? Or maybe even take the funds that were allocated for the Viki and ask France to build a Mistral and while that is happening, GOI can negotiate for a ToT for some Mistrals to be built in India?

Basically, tell Russia to get its act straight.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Sep 2012 14:47

^^ A true definition of a white elephant is taking shape in the Vik deal.

Moral of the story: If some deal is being offered with words like "free"/"too good to be true", it usually is too good to be true!

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Sep 2012 14:51

7 boilers damaged, 3 of them beyond repair and will have to be replaced, expected time for repairs - 6 to 10 months, the new date for delivery - October, 2013. The tricky part is that there are no ready boilers for replacement, they have to be produced and tested first.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2012 14:51

I hope that I see the ship in IN service before I die of old age.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Sep 2012 14:59

SNaik wrote:7 boilers damaged, 3 of them beyond repair and will have to be replaced, expected time for repairs - 6 to 10 months, the new date for delivery - October, 2013. The tricky part is that there are no ready boilers for replacement, they have to be produced and tested first.

Expect Russians( and Russki apologists on this board) to start noises about how Indians didnt anticipate correct boilers to be used and so Indian fault onlee. Also, pay xxx million $$ for getting new boilers designed and tested else take the ship as is with no boilers.

Basically, textbook horror deal and no hope of seeing Indian waters before 2015 at bare minimum since there are no replacements boilers also and need to be designed ground up.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Sep 2012 15:18

To be Frank even the Viraat, Former HMS Hermes has been for large portions its service life in India been in refit. Looks like getting Old carriers no matter what the deal is not the way to go.

The way forward, inspite of delays is to take the ADS approach and start building concercently, there will be delays, but we have no option but to go the route of manufacturing all our ships ( above 3000 tonne) in house, it will take us a generation but a good naval ship building capability with allied industries seems to be a nessecity.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 17 Sep 2012 15:39

My suggestion : open a tender for a 65000 tonne catapault launched Aircraft carrier, allow the private sector to participate with the condition of providing the carrier by 2017-2018 (how the winner of the tender will do is there problem w.r.t tech etc) with serious penalty + incentive clause built in. Budget around $3 billion
I bet we will get a brand new functioning(there could be some weapon integration issue but definitely not a boiler issue

) carrier by then

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 17 Sep 2012 16:08

Jo Russia mein crap wo India mein bhi crap.
They sold us junk,that even they never used, and taxpayers paid billions for it, the chinese did the same thing in a correct way.
Its not hard to understand why some high ranking navy official was caught on camera with a natasha
and what was he doing there..
A new AC built in India costs lesser than this refurbished junk..
The biggest scam in this is why the heck we agreed to pay extra 2 bn when in that case we should have fined them for delay and wrong cost estimates. No wonder why our babus agreed to their initial costs.
Many of these parts/systems installed in it would be those old parts painted new and since they are past their lifetime ,they are shutting down.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Sep 2012 16:17

More info coming out: the breakdown happened in late July. The ship was kept at sea to finish the tests of aircraft and handling systems. Apparently it's still able to have at least 18-20 knots under 5 boilers.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Sep 2012 16:30

Latest from Mazagon

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Sep 2012 16:43

SNaik wrote:More info coming out: the breakdown happened in late July. The ship was kept at sea to finish the tests of aircraft and handling systems. Apparently it's still able to have at least 18-20 knots under 5 boilers.

So they had 3 boilers knocked out and continued with the test , strange.

Must be some test like keep running till you have all boilers knocked out and then tow it back

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Sep 2012 17:03

Just a few days ago I was reading an article where a former CNS said that the Gorky deal had been badly "bungled". The reasons have been spelt out ad nauseum in BR over the last few years.To sum it up in one sentence,the task of modifying the cruiser-carrier into a regular flat top was grossly underestimated by both the Russians and our own babus/IN's technical team.What looked like a golden opportunity ,a long time ago,to acquire a replacement for the Vikrant,whose own replacement had been bungled forcing the IN to acquire the venerable Hermes (which thankfully has served us manfully over 25 years),now looks nightmarish.Any further delay will attract the inevitable financial penalties as was done with the first lot of Talwars. I pity the head of the Gorky project and shipyard boss,Putin will send them to Siberia if the prblems are accurate and further delays take place.Delays to projects being undertaken by our own PSUs will however attract no penalties whatsoever!

Carriers and powerplant prolems have plagued navies including the IN and the Vikrant in '71,but she was nursed by her gallant crew into performing her glorious role in that war.Asbestos has become a dirty world nowadays,because of the danger of asbestosis,but this is generally only when the ship/eqpt is being broken up and dust emanates.Substitutes for it have in many industries been found wanting.What the Russians are gping to do about this problem if true remains to be seen.Perhaps an expensive composite material used like those used in the space industry.Russia has decades of space experience and surely will have already have in hand a (expensive) substitute material.

fearing delays in both programmes,the Gorshkv and IAC-1,I had earlier suggested that s an interim measure,the IN acquire one or even two of the hastily retd. RN's Illustrious carriers which operate Harriers.Their role would've been both for amphibious ops as well as regular carrier ops as these carriers have served in the Iraq, and Afghan campaigns,where their Harriers have performed very well.To illustrate their usefulness in current wars,6 of them were just days ago destroyed and 2 more badly damaged by the Taliban in the attack on Camp Bastion in Aghanistan.These could've been acquired at low cost and there were 72+ Harriers available.Instead of seizing the opportunity,we have lost out to the USMC which have acquired all the Harriers lock,stock and barrel as they operate 300+ of the same type.The Ark Royal is now being scrapped for a song,more's the pity

Reg. Cats,Stobar,and other launching systems,the cost of installing cats is prohiibitive as explained earlier.They are expensive ,weigh a lot and also require a very powerful powerplant to operate them,costing billions.STOBAR is the least expensive.Even the RN has abandoned cats for its new QE 65,000t carriers being built as being too expensive and has opted for the STOVL version of the JSF.We neither have the tech nor the moolah for such an option and IAC-2 is still on the drawing board.Perhaps this lesson should serve as a timely warning to the IN,even if an N-plant is being considered,as our desi N-plant has yet to be proven in the ATV as of now and even the French had serious problems with the N-plant of the CDG.

So what are our future options? Hopefully the Gorky/Viks problems will be sorted out,delay inevitable,IAC-1 will also arrive-delay inevitable,there imay still be some time to repurchase the Ark being sold for scrap,its decent condition can be seen on the Nat-Geo (?) feature on telly,there are still some Sea Harriers I think in mothballs,and the carrier can be used to augment /replace the Virat if she becoime inoperableor too dificult to maintain.As for new carriers,we could always buy the second new 65,000t carrier being built for the RN which they cannot operate due to budget cuts and was being contemplated for a joint French/RN control. Ohter than that,only patience is left ,a vitrue practised by Indians for millenia!

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 17 Sep 2012 17:09

Austin wrote:
SNaik wrote:More info coming out: the breakdown happened in late July. The ship was kept at sea to finish the tests of aircraft and handling systems. Apparently it's still able to have at least 18-20 knots under 5 boilers.
So they had 3 boilers knocked out and continued with the test , strange.

Must be some test like keep running till you have all boilers knocked out and then tow it back

Sounds mighty fishy, doesn't it?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 17 Sep 2012 18:48

According to reports in sections of the Russian media, repairs can only start next spring because of harsh winter conditions in the Arctic seaport of Severodvinsk, where the ship has been retrofitted. Well-placed sources in New Delhi acknowledged that some defect in the boiler of the aircraft has been detected, but added that three to four months are enough to rectify it.

The sources added that the aviation trials of the aircraft carrier would be concluded by mid-October

Indian Navy hopeful of getting INS Vikramaditya by April 2013

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Sep 2012 19:34

If true, the story would mean bye bye a/c for quite some time.. It could also mean, there are some other motives and international political clout trying to put breaks on IN. See, the independence and freedom angle. There are full of enemies out there.

7 out 8 broilers breaking down! that is catastrophic!

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Sep 2012 20:46

If this had happened to a homegrown IAC, the likes of Manoj Joshi & Rajat Pandit will be having a field day, projecting their inferiority complexes to other Indians.

At least 1 take-away from this (on the non-Naval side): dont put all our eggs in the FGFA basket. Pump in money into the AMCA and have a solid Plan B ready. That project is a lot more strategic than the Vic and we can expect full-blown arm twisting and India paying for Russia's failures

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 17 Sep 2012 23:47

Remember the Akula had some trouble while testing. I would rather they find them during testing than when in service. But all the more reason to speed up IAC-I and IAC-II

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 17 Sep 2012 23:57

Sea trials are done to detect these kind of kinks and teething issues so there is nothing alarming about it IMO. If the bilors have blown or crapped out causing major breakage than I'll worry about it. If some of them couldn't achieve (or sustain) their max power in first attempt, it's not abnormal development cum testing cycle. They'll re-engineer systems, beef up some stuff and tune others and it'll all come back togather in due time.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Sep 2012 00:01

SNaik wrote:7 boilers damaged, 3 of them beyond repair and will have to be replaced, expected time for repairs - 6 to 10 months, the new date for delivery - October, 2013. The tricky part is that there are no ready boilers for replacement, they have to be produced and tested first.

Replacing the boilers is just one part of the solution though isn't it? According to the articles the reason why the boilers went bust seems to be that the alternative to the asbestos insulation that the Russians used didn't exactly work as planned. So if that issue isn't sorted out this can easily happen again. I don't know what entails replacing the insulation again, but if it requires the boilers to be taken out, then we are looking at a lot longer than 6-10 months. This is not including the actual problem of what insulation to use now since the IN understandably doesn't want asbestos, and the alternative that the Russians have is useless.

The way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if the IAC-1 floats out before we get the Vik.

Meanwhile Philip has predictably made his usual post about the Vik deal being in doldrums yet again because "both the IN and the Russkies" made mistakes. I hope he realizes that his statement reads like paki claptrap about there being "extremists on both sides".

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Sep 2012 01:02

^^+1 Some people are more patriotic than the king, unfortunately in this case a foreign king.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 18 Sep 2012 01:20

There are many commercial foundry / furnace compounds that are asbestos free and marine certified. They are available off the shelf.

A boiler can be simplistically split into 2 submodules 1) the furnace/foundry where the fuel is burnt at temps in excess of 2000 deg c
this section is lined with thermal bricks and motar which are dosed with asbestos which has excellent high temp insulating properties.
2) the second module is the pressure vessel in which steam/water flows and which is heated up by these hot flue gases. this is the expensive part of the boiler.
this part is cooled by water and does not have any asbestos. operating temp approx 350 deg c (depending on the type of steam reqd)

The furnace module if not tooo bad could be repaired on board without having to remove the whole boiler

So lets not jump to conclusions as to the time frame, as only when the boilers have cooled down (few days) and all the insulation removed will the extent of damage be known.

As noted earlier in this thread I too find it surprising how matters proceeded to such a stage during a sea trial. where by something so fundermental is overlooked.

The furnace stage is under no pressure huge fans give it forced ventelation. there are observing ports whereby the flame and the furnace walls can be observed.

zlin · Post by **zlin** » 18 Sep 2012 04:46

It really doesn't matter 3 or 7. They were all designed and made same. If even one can't stand the high speed, eventually all will have same problem under similar situation.

kit · Post by **kit** » 18 Sep 2012 08:07

As they say never buy a used car ., even if refurbished . Something can always and invariably does go wrong . It would be no surprise if vikky spends half her career in repair !