China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 19 Sep 2012 07:24

NEW DELHI: There has been no let up in China's needling of India all along the unresolved 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC), with its troops continuing to regularly "transgress" into Indian territory.

People's Liberation Army (PLA) troops have also stepped up their aggressive patrolling in eastern Ladakh in recent months. There was some kind of a face-off between PLA troops and Indian soldiers in the Chumar area of the Nyoma sector on July 29 when a large Chinese patrol crossed over into what is perceived to be Indian territory.

"Our patrol, which was also in the area, did a 'banner drill' (waved banners at the Chinese troops to show it was Indian territory)...the two sides subsequently disengaged without any confrontation," said sources in the Army.

While there has been no major border confrontation or an actual skirmish between the two armies, India has recorded as many as 550 "transgressions" by Chinese troops across the LAC in all the three sectors — western (Ladakh), middle ( Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh) and eastern ( Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh) -just since January 2010, as reported by TOI earlier.

India hopes the new bilateral boundary coordination mechanism, which became operational earlier this year after being inked during the 15th round of border between national security advisor Shivshankar Menon and his Chinese counterpart Dai Bingguo, will help prevent border flare-ups between the two armies.

India also takes up "specific incidents" of transgressions by PLA through hotlines, flag meetings, border personnel meeting (BPM) and normal diplomatic channels. During the fourth India-China annual defence dialogue last December, New Delhi also told Beijing that military patrols along the LAC should not be undertaken at night, nor should they "surprise each other". Moreover, laid-down stand-operating procedures to cool down tempers should be followed in the event of face-offs between the two armies.

member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 10:04

I am a little curious to see that we dismiss all Chinese advances as fan boy innovation. There can be only two reasons for this- 1) - It is a classic Psyops of Chinese and people here know about it and they are calling their bluff. (Which is Ok to me as I am not as aware of Chinese advances in these fields as senior people in this forum are) 2) - We are dismissing their achievements because we are not able to match them at present. (This is worrying as in this case we would be bluffing over selves)
If I were to make a hard assessment of Chinese then I will see other fields in which they have progressed. They have very advanced Space program which even ISRO acknowledges to be little ahead than them. They make their own Nuclear reactors in a big way. They are making nuclear subs for a long time now. Their Shipyards churn more ships than ours. They have made a few Aircrafts (not cutting edge but gives lot of confidence in terms of designing). Overall even if they have stolen technology or gained it through copying, how does it matter if they have understood it well and improved it further. Reinventing the wheel isn't the only way to master a technology because if that was the case why would universities impart us latest technology and not start from scratch.
I am not discounting the opinions of the members here; my only concern is we must never leave objectivity behind.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 19 Sep 2012 14:21

Dear Raj,
I think both the points you mention are correct to some extent. Certainly, Chinese aircrafts/carriers/submarines are not state of the art (nowhere comparable to raptors, Virginia subs or their CVNs). All the same they make up for lack of quality through sheer numbers, that can overwhelm our (Indian) forces. At the same time, they hope to frighten others into submission through their psy-ops machinery. Those 'leaked' pics of J-20, distant shots of Type 094's are some examples.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Sep 2012 14:52

even though they may not be unkil levels, their kit will be dangerous enough. and they will have given thought to tactics in depth - we should not underestimate their capabilities, but no need for needless dhoti shiver (NDS!)

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 14:57

If Sun Tzu is what they follow, then we need not worry about these aircrafts, the real goodies are hidden. Remember you must seem to be aggressive when not attacking & peaceful while attacking. My concern goes up when I hear Hindi Chini bhai bhai rather than when they show their ICBMs & stealth fighters. Japan is sufficiently powerful to keep them busy for the present. Their threat to Japan is 'economic sanctions'!!!

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 15:19

Engine Woes Could Ground China’s Stealth Armada

Moreover, Russia is not the most reliable source of jet engines. In 2010, Moscow rejected a request by Beijing to purchase Russia’s latest AL-41 fighter engine. Experts assumed the PLA wanted the AL-41 to power the J-20 stealth fighter that debuted in leaked Internet photos in December 2010. Instead, the two J-20 prototypes ended up, respectively, with older AL-31s purchased earlier from Russia and Chinese copies of the AL-31 known as WS-10s.

In the meantime, China is reportedly spending $1.5 billion developing the homegrown WS-15 engine — a rough analogue to the F119 fitted to U.S. F-22 stealth fighters — to power future versions of the J-20, at least. China will probably take a similar approach with the J-21, Sweetman speculated. The new fighter could make do with inadequate Russian engines until a more powerful motor can be invented in China.

So the quest for the engine is still on. They really need those WS-15s to power any of their new planes for the 5th gen. Kaveri is tasked for 90 kN in AMCA. Interesting fight between the two. The advantage for India is the backup provided by GE414 in case things go wrong.

member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 16:20

prashanth wrote:Dear Raj,
I think both the points you mention are correct to some extent. Certainly, Chinese aircrafts/carriers/submarines are not state of the art (nowhere comparable to raptors, Virginia subs or their CVNs). All the same they make up for lack of quality through sheer numbers, that can overwhelm our (Indian) forces. At the same time, they hope to frighten others into submission through their psy-ops machinery. Those 'leaked' pics of J-20, distant shots of Type 094's are some examples.

But we don't have any of them either. (Raptors or Virginia Subs or CVNs) Shouldn't it be a reason for worry if they have even got past Mig 21 technology? I think to compare Chinese technology with either Russian or European or American would be foolish here. what we need to see, is it ahead of us and if yes how can we bridge the gap and how early? I think buying weapons from abroad continuously without any value addition to our technological base is living in a fool's world because sooner or later the tortoise (china) is going to catch up with the Hare (US) (might take 50 years perhaps but it is going to). The question we should ask ourselves here is " Are we going to catch up with US in that time frame or not? " and I am not even concerned of 2-3 years here and there. But more than a decade of difference between our and their technology (read Chinese) would be extremely worrisome.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 16:58

nakul wrote:Engine Woes Could Ground China’s Stealth Armada

So the quest for the engine is still on. They really need those WS-15s to power any of their new planes for the 5th gen. Kaveri is tasked for 90 kN in AMCA. Interesting fight between the two. The advantage for India is the backup provided by GE414 in case things go wrong.

Kaveri is now a marine and UAV engine. LOL. You must not have gotten the memo in May.

I wouldn't want to get my Chinese military analysis from an American fanboy technology publication like Wired. I would recommend Jane's or RAND publications.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:03

Kaveri is also a marine and UAV engine. LOL. You must not have gotten the memo in May.

There, corrected.

If you have better info then why not share them here instead of making smart remarks? FWIW even Pakistan has been using Russian engines on its Chinese fighters. Is there something concrete coming from across the Himalayas or are we supposed to shiver seeing Su 30 clones?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Sep 2012 17:11

the WS10x was reported to be struggling with low MTBF of around 100 hrs due to which not deployed fleetwide as replacement engine in J10 or Su27.
they would need to fix these issues before a new bigger engine can be certified for use in J20/21 because designing and flying it is one thing, but the kind of high mtbf and reliability is the next big leg up which the rus/westerns guard like crown jewels. its a hard road and whoever wants to sit at the big table - whether china or india have to walk most of it themselves.
its not a overnight process or just matter of stealing a few scientists or docs imo.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 17:13

nakul wrote:
Kaveri is also a marine and UAV engine. LOL. You must not have gotten the memo in May.
There, corrected.

If you have better info then why not share them here instead of making smart remarks? FWIW even Pakistan has been using Russian engines on its Chinese fighters. Is there something concrete coming from across the Himalayas or are we supposed to shiver seeing Su 30 clones?

Use some logic. If McLaren or Ferrari started putting Formula 1 engines in F1 cars AND lawn tractors, what does that say about the F1 car?? Kaveri is cancelled in all but name.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:15

Use some logic. If McLaren or Ferrari started putting Formula 1 engines in F1 cars AND lawn tractors, what does that say about the F1 car?? Kaveri is cancelled in all but name.

I used the same logic and found out that the velcro used on my school bag was initially used to fasten things in the zero gravity of space. It does not mean that the space program was a failure!!!

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:17

the WS10x was reported to be struggling with low MTBF of around 100 hrs due to which not deployed fleetwide as replacement engine in J10 or Su27.

If that is the only problem, they have come a long way. Even at the height of its power Soviet engines had less MTBF than western ones. Of course, it was greater than 100 hrs. Wonder when that figure (2000 hrs?) becomes good enough to use on combat operations???

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 17:19

nakul wrote:
Use some logic. If McLaren or Ferrari started putting Formula 1 engines in F1 cars AND lawn tractors, what does that say about the F1 car?? Kaveri is cancelled in all but name.
I used the same logic and found out that the velcro used on my school bag was initially used to fasten things in the zero gravity of space. It does not mean that the space program was a failure!!!

There is a Major flaw in your logic. Velcro was actually used in space. Kaveri was never used and will never be used in an military fighter. Now, if NASA decided Velcro was crap, never used it and sold it to school bag makers, then your logic would hold 100%. Otherwise, no dice friend.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:29

wong wrote:
nakul wrote: I used the same logic and found out that the velcro used on my school bag was initially used to fasten things in the zero gravity of space. It does not mean that the space program was a failure!!!

There is a Major flaw in your logic. Velcro was actually used in space. Kaveri was never used and will never be used in an military fighter. Now, if NASA decided Velcro was crap, never used it and sold it to school bag makers, then your logic would hold 100%. Otherwise, no dice friend.

Kaveri research is ongoing. Either you are badly misinformed or plain trolling. Kaveri was delinked from the Tejas program. Delinking and cancelling are two different things.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2012 17:30

wong wrote: Kaveri is now a marine and UAV engine. LOL. You must not have gotten the memo in May.

I wouldn't want to get my Chinese military analysis from an American fanboy technology publication like Wired. I would recommend Jane's or RAND publications.

Been fraternizing with your friends to our east a lot these days, are we?

How is the Chinese lack of development of an engine related to status of Indian Kaveri Engine? If anything, the Chinese inability to develop a suitable engine so far in spite of humongous efforts both in terms of financial and human resources goes on to show the limited status of technology development in this field. And this inspite of mounting a concentrated effort to beg/borrow/steal the technology from any possible source.

Mind you, I don't belittle your efforts but you can do without these torn-shirt-open-fly kind of arguments.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 17:36

nakul wrote: Kaveri research is ongoing. Either you are badly misinformed or plain trolling. Kaveri was delinked from the Tejas program. Delinking and cancelling are two different things.

More flaws in your logic. "Delinking" is spin. Why the delink? Because it's so great you decided to use an expensive fighter jet engine for UAVs and marine craft. Ferrari isn't delinking its F1 engines for use in lawn tractors because it would be cost prohibitive.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ne-371948/

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:39

More flaws in your logic. "Delinking" is spin. Why the delink? Because it's so great you decided to use an expensive fighter jet engine for UAVs and marine craft. Ferrari isn't delinking its F1 engines for use in lawn tractors because it would be cost prohibitive.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ne-371948/

From your link

He adds, however, that a Kaveri jet engine could be tested aboard a Tejas Mk 1 in another three years. This suggests that major issues still need to be ironed out before the engine is married to a manned fighter.

member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 17:42

[/quote]
There is a Major flaw in your logic. Velcro was actually used in space. Kaveri was never used and will never be used in an military fighter. Now, if NASA decided Velcro was crap, never used it and sold it to school bag makers, then your logic would hold 100%. Otherwise, no dice friend.[/quote]

Now thats what happens when a chinese smartass starts commenting about military matters of another country (India in this case) when even very informed Indians don't know the real truth. Where did you get all this information by the way that Kaveri is cancelled?
Do you even know anything about WS-10 or WS-15's status? By what I can see from your posts around here is that you throw few pics which either have been leaked by PLA to sites which you refer(more plausible) or you have managed somehow to dodge the precious security of Chinese airbases and R&D centres to get those photos of prototypes and in that case most probably the PLA intelligence unit would hang you by your nuts and sell your organs to earn a few extra dollars to invest in R&D.
PS:- don't take the last part personally because that's what I heard (selling of organs) from some reliable source

just like you did about scrapping of Kaveri engine

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:57

China is still trying to improve clones of existing engines. That should tell us about the distance that they have to cover with regards to engine technology. Things like super cruise & super maneuvribility can be easily excluded from China's military arsenal. I bet they are working on AESA radara & network centricity to cover up for the other gaps. The refusal of Phalcons from Israel to China was a real setback to their endeavor of a potent AWACS. Nevertheless, they have KJ 2000 as their mainstay.

It seems India will be facing similar technology (made in China) on both its borders in the near future. Techniques learnt on one front could be used in the other front as well. The only source of external help (Russia) is unwilling to share its crown jewels with China. In such a case, they are left with no choice but to reveal more than they have (J-20, J 31). The past developments suggest that China is quite capable of replicating existing tech but has problems in inventing new. Considering this, we don't really have to face 5th gen technology in its real sense.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 18:04

nakul wrote:
More flaws in your logic. "Delinking" is spin. Why the delink? Because it's so great you decided to use an expensive fighter jet engine for UAVs and marine craft. Ferrari isn't delinking its F1 engines for use in lawn tractors because it would be cost prohibitive.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ne-371948/
From your link

He adds, however, that a Kaveri jet engine could be tested aboard a Tejas Mk 1 in another three years. This suggests that major issues still need to be ironed out before the engine is married to a manned fighter.

That's just political double talk. All politicians talk like that. He said "could be tested", not "will be tested". He could just as easily have said "the Kaveri could be tested in the Starship Enterprise in 423.5 years" and it would be just as valid a statement. Get it??

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 18:11

That is the difference between research & development and stealing outright. With your own research, one uses the words "could" "will". In copying others' goods that are known to work, these conditions don't apply. That is why the speed is great but the output is poor. I am afraid China has to learn it the hard way. Having serrated edges with a black skin is not sufficient. The engine (eg F 119) should be capable as well. In the hurry to hide one's own shortcomings, do not hasten to malign others. We will have a flying Kaveri before China gets its own 5th gen engine unlike the current WS series of engines.

As you have cleverly refused to believe your own source of info, I suggest you stop trolling on this thread.

member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 18:12

wong wrote:

That's just political double talk. All politicians talk like that. He said "could be tested", not "will be tested". He could just as easily have said "the Kaveri could be tested in the Starship Enterprise in 423.5 years" and it would be just as valid a statement. Get it??[/quote]

Well you seem to know quite a lot about politicians!! considering you come from a country where there are no political parties (only CPC). Well another of your smartass comment goes here. Do you think the person who issued the statement about Kaveri was a politician or a scientist? (fodder for your brain) Unlike China, it is not the political secretary of CPC that heads a R&D facility like ARDE here.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 19 Sep 2012 18:12

Mr. Wong you are literally trolling here, well i can understand, you are nothing but upset about your own country's failure in building a reliable engine. Funny part is India can get engines from US, France, Russia etc. but china can only request Russians

They too rejects your requests

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Sep 2012 18:16

you all have to agree he is mr. wRong.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 18:34

nakul wrote:That is the difference between research & development and stealing outright. With your own research, one uses the words "could" "will". In copying others' goods that are known to work, these conditions don't apply. That is why the speed is great but the output is poor. I am afraid China has to learn it the hard way. Having serrated edges with a black skin is not sufficient. The engine (eg F 119) should be capable as well. In the hurry to hide one's own shortcomings, do not hasten to malign others. We will have a flying Kaveri before China gets its own 5th gen engine unlike the current WS series of engines.

As you have cleverly refused to believe your own source of info, I suggest you stop trolling on this thread.

What does "could be tested" vs. a definitive statement like "will be tested" have to do with anything. Please explain. I'm all ears.

To every non-Indian the writing is clearly on the wall, the Kaveri is over. Everything I hear about the WS-15 is that it's on track.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 18:40

What does "could be tested" vs. a definitive statement like "will be tested" have to do with anything. Please explain. I'm all ears.

To every non-Indian the writing is clearly on the wall, the Kaveri is over. Everything I hear about the WS-15 is that it's on track.

You can't put an unreliable engine in a plane with a human in it. He is clearly stating that it is currently not fit to fly in a manned plane. Research is needed to ensure safety. Hence "could" instead of "will" when using a known engine.

You seem to place a lot of trust in the CCP's words. They are still using Russian engines for their fighters. We would have seen J 20 or J31 with WS engines, if that were the case. If they can show a plane, why are they hiding engines??? A more reliable source (not a CCP mouthpiece) would be helpful.

member_23785 · Post by **member_23785** » 19 Sep 2012 18:47

wong wrote:
nakul wrote:That is the difference between research & development and stealing outright. With your own research, one uses the words "could" "will". In copying others' goods that are known to work, these conditions don't apply. That is why the speed is great but the output is poor. I am afraid China has to learn it the hard way. Having serrated edges with a black skin is not sufficient. The engine (eg F 119) should be capable as well. In the hurry to hide one's own shortcomings, do not hasten to malign others. We will have a flying Kaveri before China gets its own 5th gen engine unlike the current WS series of engines.

As you have cleverly refused to believe your own source of info, I suggest you stop trolling on this thread.
What does "could be tested" vs. a definitive statement like "will be tested" have to do with anything. Please explain. I'm all ears.

To every non-Indian the writing is clearly on the wall, the Kaveri is over. Everything I hear about the WS-15 is that it's on track.

Well unfortunately Wong your believing or not believing has nothing to do with Kaveri's development. Same is the case with WS-10 15 or whtever you are making. But there is clearly one thing we are a democracy and there is way that a democracy works. The world acknowledges India's growth. We could have possibly grown faster some other way but we choose not to.
Your case is different. Most of things that happen in your country isn't the will of the people. You don't have any choice but to comply. Given half a chance Chinese would have wanted their country to be a democracy and that can be seen by the action of those of your brothers across the strait.

Do you not think what wouldn't a North Korean give to become a South Korean any day? Now that's the difference I am talking about. But I know it will hard for you to understand as hard as it is for a blind to know what the world looks like. My advice if your parents or realtives are big shots in CPC (Probably they are and thats the reason you have a university education from US and your English isn't that bad either

) try to look from the point of view of an average chinese.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Sep 2012 18:50

Everything we read indicates the ws10 not mature enough to enter sqdn service.
And they are talking about a gen beyond that now.

As I said, getting a engine and flying it is one thing .
Making it super reliable for sq service is another.

On that account china has so far Been unable to make a useful clone of the rd93 let alone al31 or beyond.

I fully agree Indian budgets for such tasks are ridiculously low. But china exp is proof that just cash alone is not enough to get quick solutions matching the best of business.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 18:50

nakul wrote:
What does "could be tested" vs. a definitive statement like "will be tested" have to do with anything. Please explain. I'm all ears.

To every non-Indian the writing is clearly on the wall, the Kaveri is over. Everything I hear about the WS-15 is that it's on track.
You can't put an unreliable engine in a plane with a human in it. He is clearly stating that it is currently not fit to fly in a manned plane. Research is needed to ensure safety. Hence "could" instead of "will" when using a known engine.

You seem to place a lot of trust in the CCP's words. They are still using Russian engines for their fighters. We would have seen J 20 or J31 with WS engines, if that were the case. If they can show a plane, why are they hiding engines??? A more reliable source (not a CCP mouthpiece) would be helpful.

Dude, they test engines on a flying test bed. The other engines are operational. What are you in third grade??

http://www.air-and-space.com/Boeing%207 ... estbed.htm

I trust the people working at Chinese aerospace firms that said the J-31 would show up in September. It showed up in September.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 18:56

Dude, they test engines on a flying test bed. The other engines are operation. What are you in third grade??

Your ignorance about the fact that Tejas is a single engined bird is astounding. Unlike a test bed, Tejas will have no redundant engines in case of failure. Go back and read the quoted statement before making ridiculous statements comparing Tejas to a Boeing 747.

I trust the people working at Chinese aerospace firms that said the J-31 would show up in September. It should up in September.

Its already September. You should have told us before.

wong · Post by **wong** » 19 Sep 2012 19:20

^^^^^
Kaveri on Russian test bed.

http://en.take-off.ru/news/102/608

If you look through my posts here, I said it in late June kid.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 20:08

Just shows the lack of comprehension skill glandpa. We were talking of putting Kaveri in Tejas. Putting it on a test bed is no big deal. Even a dud can be put on there. That is why Kaveri is not being installed in Tejas. Hope you understand now. Unlike Chinese, we value our test pilots' lives. So WS xx being put on single engined planes in India until their fully rated for safety. That is what allows China to win the speed race. No safety checks will obviously speeden up the process.

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 19 Sep 2012 20:24

The DRDO has not fixed any time frame to full develop the Kaveri Aero Engine for the LCA, Tejas.LCA, Tejasrequires 90 kN thrust class engine to meet its operational requirement, whereas Kaveri Engine does not fully meet this requirement. Therefore, it has been decided to use variants of Kaveri Engine to power Unmanned Air Vehicle and also for marine applications.

Two important milestones of Kaveri project have been successfully achieved:-

(i) Completion of Official Altitude Testing for 73 hrs at Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM), Russia.

(ii) Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials for 55 hrs with IL-76 Aircraftconducted at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia.

Endurance testing for about 2100 hrs has been conducted at Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

It is planned to commence flight trials for Technology Demonstration of Kaveri Engine with LCA Tejas Mk-I in about 3 years time.

This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri A K Antony in a written reply to Shri Bal Kumar Patel in Lok Sabha today.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=83706

Wong - May be this will help. The de-linking of Kaveri was to deliver LCA quickly. But that does not mean the dead end for Kaveri. Kaveri is the stepping stone to build fighter engines and there is no way project would be allowed to die.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Sep 2012 20:54

we eagerly await the WS10c equipped serial production of the J-10B.

Don · Post by **Don** » 19 Sep 2012 20:59

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2 ... 859942.htm

China launches another 2 navigation system satellites
English.news.cn 2012-09-19 11:05:00

XICHANG, Sichuan, Sept. 19 (Xinhua) -- China successfully launched another two satellites into space for its indigenous global navigation and positioning network at 3:10 a.m. Beijing time on Wednesday.

They were the 14th and 15th satellites for the Beidou, or Compass, system. The satellites, launched from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in southwest China's Sichuan Province, were boosted by a Long March-3B carrier rocket.

Since it started to provide services on a trial basis on Dec. 27, 2011, the Beidou system has been stable and its services have been increased and improved, said a spokesman for the China Satellite Navigation Office.

The system has been used in transportation, weather forecasting, marine fisheries, forestry, telecommunications, hydrological monitoring and mapping, according to the spokesman.

China started to build up its own satellite navigation system to break its dependence on the U.S. Global Positioning System in 2000.

Between October 2000 and May 2003, the country set up a regional satellite navigation system after launching three Beidou geostationary satellites.

Beidou-1 can not meet growing demand, so China decided to set up a more functional Beidou-2 regional and global navigation system, Qi Faren, former chief designer for Shenzhou spaceships, said in an interview in 2011.

From April 2007 to April this year, China launched another 13 orbiters to form its Beidou-2 system, which will eventually consist of 35 satellites.

Three Beidou satellites were sent into space early this year. The 11th satellite was boosted by a Long March-3C carrier rocket on Feb. 25, while the 12th and 13th were sent by a Long March-3B carrier on April 30.

The network will provide satellite navigation, time and short message services for Asia-Pacific regions within 2012 and global services by 2020.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2012 21:45

The juvenile rants of Chinese posters on this thread not-withstanding, the existence of J-20 and J-21 allude to couple of important things -

1) I'm of the strong opinion that the major inputs came from outside. And here is why - the first true-blue aircraft of any standing 'produced' by the Chinese was J-10...and here again it was the product of generous help from the Israelis. Now, in the natural evolution of things, Chinese would have tried to develop a heavy twin-engine aircraft of the SU-30 class. But we do know that the Chinese copied the SU-27SK into J-11 and this became their front line heavy fighter. SU-30MKK continues to serve in select units with PLAAF and PLAN

So, the operational requirement for a heavy fighter in the light-heavy mix was de-linked from R&D related issues and an easier route taken to copy the Russian aircraft.

However, what is missing in this de-risking strategy is the R&D required to go from Stage A to Stage B - the J-10 was product of external help, J-11 was copied and yet, the Chinese R&D institutions were confident enough to build aircraft like J-20 and J-21? What was the base on which these systems were developed? Unless, the same was inputs sourced from external parties and hired brains from Russian/Ukrainian institutes and other nations.

There is another big-big hint in all this - the ENGINES. The design was optimized to carry engines of what dimensions? An a/c like J-20 or J-21 will require the modern engines of the type used in J-10 or J-11 (basically, Russian engines)...now, when the R&D on these babies started, the latest engines would not have been available but some base version would have had to be used. And future growth potential of this base version would have to be factored into the design.

So, what has been the evolution timeline of AL-31 series of engines? And correspondingly, how long ago were the projects for these babies conceived? Because I'm sure the Chinese would not be stupid to link the viability of their crown jewel fighters with their domestic engine programme.

2) Having said that, we need to accept that the Chinese aviation R&D has reached a stage where they can put together an aircraft with LO characteristics...from my little understanding of aviation, putting together a machine like this requires lot of other things to fall in place...even if the inputs came from outside, they would have to be validated. We don't know whether the FCS is domestic or even that came from outside...putting together a FBW FCS for these babies would be a feat in itself.

What is more critical to know is the level of learning achieved and assimilated by the Chinese engineers.Because this is what will decide the future evolution of aircraft in the Chinese aviation R&D space.

3) It will be interesting to see the evolution of PLAAF over next decade. They have a huge inventory of aircraft which need to be replaced with more modern ones.

Before this decade is out PLAAF will need to replace 1,000 aircraft...and older version of J-11/J-10/Su-30MKK will come up for modernization. Contrary to popular perception on this forum, PLAAF will have its hands full in trying to manage this transition.

There are two important aspect here:

- newer aircraft are going to be expensive. In spite of having a large budget, PLAAF cannot maintain a very large air force as before. The newer and more sophisticated aircraft will be expensive to acquire and maintain.

- It is an absolute must for J-10 to reach a right maturity level in terms of armament technology and engines. It is going to be to PLAAF what F-16 was to USAF. As it retires old aircraft, PLAAF may seek 1:10 kind of replacement with J-10.

- What we need to watch out here is the role played by J-11 in the equation. Will it emerge as a true-blue Chinese F-15 or remain an interim measure with relatively limited numbers and fill the gap till J-20/J-21 combo mature. IMO, the level of activity in J-11/SU-35 space will be an indicator of how the Chinese stealth programs are progressing.

- If precedence is anything to go by, these aircraft (or, the final variations that they may spawn) should start entering Squadron service by end of this decade.

From my vantage point - by 2020, PLAAF will start transitioning to a mix of very high-high-medium capability aircraft force with around 1,000 pure combat aircraft force.

Rest assured, we're going to have our hands full.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Sep 2012 22:06

The J-10 maybe their first real 3rd gen aircraft but still lost badly to Mig-29M2 in the trials for Myammar AF. No it is no match for M2K-5 or Mig-29K. That said India needs to focus on kaveri, LCA/MCA and FGFA. Yes as time goes PLAAF lik PAF will replace obsolete planes with J-10/J-11 but IAF is also doing the same. When you say high/medium capacity, high or medium compared to what? The F-6 and F-7 definitely but then the legacy F-16/M2K,Mig-29's etc have not stayed where they were have they? Nor have they stopped producing Rafale, Eurofighter, F-22/F-35 etc.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Sep 2012 22:15

^^^As they say, only thing constant is change. As the Mig-29/F-16/M-2K have not remained constant, so will be the case be with J-10. If they can source technology to produce LO aircraft, I don't think they are going to be held back in other domains as well. Plus, as the defense spending pie in the west shrinks, the shrill to lift the weapons export control on the Chinese is only growing to grow. God knows when that happens, it will open a flood gate of OTS technologies for the Chinese - in a legitimate way.

That is why said that it is absolute must for J-10 to mature properly. They have managed to reach the threshold in terms of aerodynamics, they will soon be cracking at the electronics and armaments part.

In terms of High-Medium mix - well, it should be a combination of J-10/J-11 and which ever puppy comes of age by 2020. They have more money and it will show in due course of time.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Sep 2012 23:24

Exactly why LCA Mk2 is a must. LCA must mature and be accepted by IAf and put through the rigors before they start their hankering for MCA/FGFA etc.