Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Sep 2012 06:00

I don't know and don't want to speculate. But the payload size has its own message.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 16 Sep 2012 06:12

The A-5 should have composite motor right. In which case A-5 should have a range > 5000 km for 2-2.5 tonne payload (enough for 4-6 MaRV).

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 16 Sep 2012 07:56

^^^^^^
All depends on how much 'M' you're going for.
Reportedly, the Russian MaRVs are scramjet-powered and can hit targets 100+ km apart.

http://www.missilethreat.com/archives/i ... detail.asp

kit · Post by **kit** » 16 Sep 2012 14:07

A single Agni missile with 10 thermonuclear MIRVs is enough to deter any power ! Mix that with dummy FAE / CL 20 warheads

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Sep 2012 23:26

I would say, a better weapon for actual poser to chippanda club, especially pakis is the H-bum. Nothing else can scare [mission specific] these folks.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Sep 2012 09:44

Any news on the Agni III/IV tests?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Sep 2012 11:05

It looks like Agni IV test has been postponed to Wednesday... here is the news from IE...
http://newindianexpress.com/states/odis ... vice=print

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Sep 2012 18:53

What a farticle above, H&D comparing a painted CM with a BM with composites

The Indian scientists too cannot afford to take any chance after the reported successful trial of Babur missile.

DDM at its very best

and snide remarks befitting editor Shekar Gupta

Even as it is said that the Agni-IV is a modified version of the Agni-II Prime strategic missile whose first test was ended in failure, the DRDO during the maiden test of A-IV claimed there was no missile in the Indian arsenal as A-II Prime.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Sep 2012 20:23

Aditya_V wrote:
Even as it is said that the Agni-IV is a modified version of the Agni-II Prime strategic missile whose first test was ended in failure, the DRDO during the maiden test of A-IV claimed there was no missile in the Indian arsenal as A-II Prime.

There is no missile in the Indian Arsenal called "A-II Prime" because it is to be called A-IV, A2P was a test designation, with 3.5k+ range, it would be a farce to give it a A2 nomenclature...
anyway, all these is beyond DDMs.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 18 Sep 2012 21:36

The range of A-4 as per TSS in chindu is > 4k km.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 19 Sep 2012 12:11

India Test fires A4 missile.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 19 Sep 2012 12:19

TOI reporting that the Agni-IV has been launched.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Sep 2012 13:32

Long range strategic missile Agni-IV successfully test-fired
Balasore (Odisha): India on Wednesday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable strategic missile Agni-IV with a strike range of about 4000 km from a test range off Odisha coast.

It was test launched with the help of a mobile launcher from launch complex-4 of ITR at Wheeler Island, about 100 km from Balasore, at about 1145 hours, Defence sources said.

A high performance on-board computer with distributed avionics architecture and high speed reliable communication bus and a full Digital Control System were used to control and guide the missile to the target.

"It is equipped with modern and compact avionics to provide high level of reliability," a DRDO official said.

"The state-of-the-art Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (RINS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been incorporated into the missile system in guidance mode," the sources said.

The sophisticated missile is lighter in weight and has two stages of solid propulsion. The payload with a re-entry heat shield can withstand temperature of more than 3000 degree Celsius, a Defence scientist said.

The missile is undergoing developmental trials by country's premier Defence Research and Development Organisation.

The last trial of the missile, carried out on November 15, 2011 from the same base was successful.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Sep 2012 15:56

Hindu reports test was to full range of 4000km payload 1t and 800km height with 3000c re entry temp. Less than 100m cep recorded by two ships. There is one more development fire scheduled next yr before induction

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 19 Sep 2012 16:32

the Agni-4 launch video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuJWHRU397E

the press release
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http ... 120919.pdf

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Sep 2012 16:33

Singha wrote:Hindu reports test was to full range of 4000km payload 1t and 800km height with 3000c re entry temp. Less than 100m cep recorded by two ships. There is one more development fire scheduled next yr before induction

Three things stand out in the report by the Hindu.
1) Tested to the full range of 4,000 KM
2) Tested with 1,000 kg of explosives
3) Two digit accuracy (usually it is low single digit).

a noob pooch, if it was tested with 1T of conventional explosives, wont the volume required be far more that a 1T warhead with Petals?!?!?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 16:52

a noob pooch, if it was tested with 1T of conventional explosives, wont the volume required be far more that a 1T warhead with Petals?!?!?

Good question! I don't know how they actually do it but if it was me I would put a nuclear device with an inert core. The core could be made of depleted uranium or other such substance. Putting conventional explosives is a way to test the triggering mechanism but it could be the trigger for an uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction. Any gurus???

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Sep 2012 17:44

Can the DRDO move away from Agni xyz, and reach for a full blown ICBM. I am sick and tried of a new missile for every 1000 Km increment in range.

At this rate we will have Agni 10 for a 10000 Km range missile. With Agni 6 for 6000 Km. Agni 7 for 7000 Km so on and so forth.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:45

Where India stands today on missile technology

India's quest for missile technology has not been smooth. After India test-fired the first Prithvi missile in 1988 and the first Agni missile in 1989, the Missile Technology Control Regime, led by Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States, decided to restrict access to any technology that would help India in its missile development programme. Russia was in tatters; the Soviet Union had just collapsed. To counter the MTCR attempt in ensuring western monopoly over critical missile technology, India had to become self-reliant. A slew of public sector firms with independent research laboratories were set up throughout country to develop the technologies, the sub systems, the materials, the testing facilities.

The fact that India tests its missiles many more times unlike its neighbour to the west is a testimony to the self-reliance that India's missile development complexes have developed. Tried and tested technology platforms, whether imported, stolen (pirated) or smuggled, seldom require testing. But things developed from the scratch need to be put under repeated and rigorous tests.

Detractors or those who love to live in denial about India's progress in missile technology development jumped the gun after the Agni-V tests saying the guidance chips were imported. The Semiconductor Complex Limited (SCL) with its research lab was established in Chandigarh in 1983. Nearly all flight instrumentation systems of the IGMDP programme have come from there.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Sep 2012 17:49

I don't think they will advertise a range beyond harbin. But you might see the published payload climb to 3 tons! And the missiles get smaller when the first stage inevitably moves to composite as less propellent would be needed.
It just denies vested interests in western govts and their paid dogs here a cheap stick to beat India with that's all.
Those who need to know can very well calculate .

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 17:56

I was thinking that the next series of missiles would be SLBMs which could be used to target China from Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean, & Atlantic Ocean, respectively. This will ensure that we are a peace loving nation onleee...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Sep 2012 19:13

All Electro-Optical Tracking systems (EOTS), Radars located all along the coast have tracked and monitored all the parameters throughout the flight. Two ships located near the target point tracked the vehicle and witnessed the final event.

cool.. we can get this augmented for integrating with next gen FCRs with HMDs... especially useful for dogfights and pilot's/weapon's afsar eyesight focus point guidance.

jai · Post by **jai** » 19 Sep 2012 19:46

Pratyush wrote:Can the DRDO move away from Agni xyz, and reach for a full blown ICBM. I am sick and tried of a new missile for every 1000 Km increment in range.

At this rate we will have Agni 10 for a 10000 Km range missile. With Agni 6 for 6000 Km. Agni 7 for 7000 Km so on and so forth.

Boss, does it occur to you that this may be a chanakiyan ploy to keep our enemies guessing - in terms of the exact range and lethalities? That this is chanakian psy ops at work - you can not create effective deterrence around what you do not know, so take all this public reporting - ranges, names, payloads etc with a pinch of salt. Think about why is it being put into media- what is the message - to whom and how. Cheers !

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 19 Sep 2012 20:09

The second stage of this missile is the real mystery.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 19 Sep 2012 20:35

If A5 is single payload TN then we need further miniaturization and testing.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Sep 2012 20:40

The real test of CEP to me will be if the Mars orbiter is injected in the correct orbit next year. That tells us how good the guidance systems are.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 20:48

The third test of Agni 5 will involve MIRVs. I suppose they would have a good idea how big the nukes are going to be if they are doing that. For comparison, Brahmos is nuke capable. The next step should be hypersonic scramject MaRV (ala Topol) which could make it ABM proof for sometime!!!

disha · Post by **disha** » 19 Sep 2012 20:59

Mort Walker wrote:The real test of CEP to me will be if the Mars orbiter is injected in the correct orbit next year. That tells us how good the guidance systems are.

Why? The precise injection of multiple satellites by PSLV is not enough? Okay how about Chandrayaan?

a noob pooch, if it was tested with 1T of conventional explosives, wont the volume required be far more that a 1T warhead with Petals?!?!?

The volume will be the same, only the pit is removed. The weight change will be negligible (less than 2%) or the pit replaced by tranciever to monitor other params or an inert core.

nakul wrote:Good question! I don't know how they actually do it but if it was me I would put a nuclear device with an inert core. ... Any gurus???

The pit is removed ( no need to replace it with depleted uranium etc) or as you have guessed may have been replaced with an inert core., the rest of the warhead including the triggering mechanism remains the same.

The question is why this stress on 1 Ton payload? Was an inert Dharmo tested?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Sep 2012 21:32

Its a message. 4K km with 1 tonne payload. With a smaller 500 kg pay load the range gets extended covering everything that needs to be hit.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Sep 2012 21:57

I don't believe Brahmos is nuke capable. Even if it is, we don't have miniature warheads

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 21:58

I don't about the size of warheads that we have. But the website certainly calls it nuke capable.

http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=9

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Sep 2012 22:01

jamwal wrote:I don't believe Brahmos is nuke capable. Even if it is, we don't have miniature warheads

Says who? These things are never revealed and yes India did test a sub kilo tonne nuke warhead.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Sep 2012 22:08

The link doesn't say it's nuke capable.
Edit: It specifically says that Brahmos carries a conventional warhead (200-300 kgs)

Brahmos is 60 cm thick. Being sub-kiloton wouldn't automatically make a warhead small enough to fit in there

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 22:12

It calls for a strategic warhead. Unless India is capable of manufacturing them, it won't be implemented. The radioactive fallout after use of such a weapon is explicitly mentioned.

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 19 Sep 2012 22:27

Bheeshma wrote:Its a message. 4K km with 1 tonne payload. With a smaller 500 kg pay load the range gets extended covering everything that needs to be hit.

If you mean neighbour up north, then yes.

Halving the payload will only increase its range up to 20%.

Will it compromise damage intended to be inflicted ? With conventional warhead for sure.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 19 Sep 2012 22:47

<conjecture><vague memory>

The Pokhran II tests were all of 'weaponized' designs; meaning miniaturized. Some were described as "implosion type" or "fusion-boosted fision" or other descriptor, which gives clues as to their shape. At least one or two of the devices was only described as "experimental", and so one cannot draw too many conclusions about it's mechanics.

I found it quite interesting that the Pokhran II tests included a number of sub-kiloton designs, including "experimental" designs.

Another thing I found quite interesting is the technolgical development path that produced the very unique BrahMos.

The fact that it weighs a goodly number of tonnes (probably no less than 2-3 tonnes after all fuel has been consumed), and also the fact that it will be travelling at approx 2.8 mach -- this gives the BrahMos a MOSTEROUS amount of kinetic energy.

Another peculiar and much-touted capability is the vertical dive.

Now, if we put these things together............. using something like a 'gun-type' design for the nuke warhead and an earth-penetrating tungsten nose cone............ The result is a nuclear weapon mounted on a ground-penetrating super-sonic, multi-tonne "BrahMos-N", delivered precisely on target, at a vertical angle, with DEVASTATING effect.

Please note: The crushing-forces that would surely destroy the missile as it smashes through the ground need not destroy the bomb aboard before it is triggered.

My further guess would be that the experiments during Pokhran II involved focussing the destructive energy of the "experimental warhead" onto a specific target, forward........... or as the missile would fly, downward, into that TSP nuke bunker.

</vague memory></conjecture>

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Sep 2012 22:53

It could be either way. Either india has proven fission warheads sufficiently miniaturized to fit as MIRVs or it doesnt have ., in which case it is a fall back to the proven 'bullock cart' age weapon design from the PK 1 ., which is um heavy.There is nothing to indicate fusion weapons are considered.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 19 Sep 2012 22:56

I think subkiloton blasts can be undertaken anytime without the fear of detection. Dunno about the scalability of designs but it could have been tested anytime. If a few were tested, we would not hear about them. These could be useful for precision type weapons like Brahmos.

John · Post by **John** » 20 Sep 2012 00:04

nakul wrote:The third test of Agni 5 will involve MIRVs. I suppose they would have a good idea how big the nukes are going to be if they are doing that. For comparison, Brahmos is nuke capable. The next step should be hypersonic scramject MaRV (ala Topol) which could make it ABM proof for sometime!!!

Scramjet will be little use at those altitudes.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2012 00:22

kit, ramana et al. there is a strong reason to believe the work done by karodkar and co. however, there is NO strong reason to believe the efficiency of the design. so, we should not feel that we don't have the maal, from sub kilos to quarter megas, but we should feel only concerned on the performance and efficiency. So, strategically, all we need to do is de-rate the tonnage by 50%., that includes MIRV, meaning 3 mirvs become 1.5 mirv etc.

now, I have done my part on building the 50% NFU deterrence value.