PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 22 Aug 2012 20:00

mahadevbhu wrote:1. Are there any case studies that show how dogfights and other fights inthe air to air regime have gone in the past? Some analysis of DACTs , red flags, cope indias, in detail?

2. How does one get a job as a material science-metallurgy guy in HAL? I believe I have the answer to single crystal turbofan blades

If you really have the answer to develop a desi SCB then you should reach out to someone in GTRE..
If you are really sure that you have an answer to it let me know.. I can help to some extent...

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 22 Aug 2012 21:19

avinashpeter wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:1. Are there any case studies that show how dogfights and other fights inthe air to air regime have gone in the past? Some analysis of DACTs , red flags, cope indias, in detail?

2. How does one get a job as a material science-metallurgy guy in HAL? I believe I have the answer to single crystal turbofan blades
If you really have the answer to develop a desi SCB then you should reach out to someone in GTRE..
If you are really sure that you have an answer to it let me know.. I can help to some extent...

Well. I have the right sort of background to help the mission to build SCBs. Metallurgy_IIT+ivy league then r2ied. I have worked with chemical vapour deposition and believe that I could work on it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Aug 2012 21:23

get your paperwork done, and get an appointment with r&d folks., and please take this to the right thread.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Aug 2012 21:24

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
SaiK wrote:nice. any pics showing the inlets? as deep as possible but clear and not doctored?
I think this one has been here on the forum before but anyways, its the closest out there.

This is known to be doctored. And it was doctored by somebody who didn't study the geometry of the plane well. The axis of the engine and the axis of the compressor blades, don't match

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Aug 2012 21:26

Another theory doing the rounds is that what is visble are not blades but a cover of sorts which will reduce the strength of reflected radar waves.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Aug 2012 21:31

I thought so.. more super hornet-ish!

actually, we had discussed this some good pages back:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1007744

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=1400

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Aug 2012 22:10

the engine would be further behind, somewhat higher and more inward.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Aug 2012 22:22

having given a 5th gen tag, it is easy to assume it is not the turbine blades [given position].. and is a blocker/deflector or a variable geometry vanes and a 5th gen one at it.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 22 Aug 2012 22:29

S duct isn't the only way to super stealth as some yankie fanboys would want us to believe, infact the T-50 has the most complex intake duct design that i've seen so far. Maybe it has got something to do with LO but its all speculation now, but i am confident that the russians with their legendary mathematical skills and with their berkut experience would definitely come up with some ingenious solution to the compressor face signal management.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Aug 2012 23:20

Those inner angles are at 45* so to speak.. what more data one needs, and again if that pic reflects the actual inlet.

BTW, why would you say yankie fanboys would not believe those inlets.. it exactly a model that the super hornets had.

Again, I have no idea how different wave patterns are deflected or consumed. but going by rectilinear properties, the angles and edges seems to be the solution.

--

PS:

nachiket wrote:

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 22 Aug 2012 23:28

SaiK wrote:get your paperwork done, and get an appointment with r&d folks., and please take this to the right thread.

which is the right thread for this? who on here, is a good person to talk to ?raghuk? Rajanb??

thanks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Aug 2012 01:10

^There is a high probability that you might not get the job since you are trying to derail this thread. I can't find it for you.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 23 Aug 2012 11:55

mahadevbhu wrote:
SaiK wrote:get your paperwork done, and get an appointment with r&d folks., and please take this to the right thread.
which is the right thread for this? who on here, is a good person to talk to ?raghuk? Rajanb??

thanks.

Please visit http://rac.gov.in/index.php?lang=en

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Aug 2012 15:24

The Interview is good talks about 1st and 2nd stage engine by GD/Director NPO Saturn

http://vpk-news.ru/articles/8228

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Aug 2012 18:02

Плесе Транслате.
тханкс

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 21 Sep 2012 18:28

cross posting from - India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector thread

this hal report is truly a treasure trove of info here is another bit of interesting info about PAK-FA

seems they are doing their own wind tunnel tests as all the control surfaces are operable

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2012 19:14

Is there a better pic on the model?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 21 Sep 2012 21:11

I suppose the model will start from the Russian PAK FA. The later variant (FGFAish) after incorporating the suggested changes will excite us jingos. Hope to see AMCA & FGFA flying in IAF colors *drool*

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 21 Sep 2012 21:27

SaiK wrote:Is there a better pic on the model?

Check this out. Looks like the same.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 21 Sep 2012 21:45

Snehashis wrote:
SaiK wrote:Is there a better pic on the model?

Check this out. Looks like the same.

Thats just some random cg that was put on Hal's webpage. The wind tunnel model looks exactly like the t-50 from the backside.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2012 21:45

no, not the artwork.. but actual model as in the wind tunnel shown above.. or the same pic blown in high pixel resolution?

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 21 Sep 2012 21:57

SaiK wrote:no, not the artwork.. but actual model as in the wind tunnel shown above.. or the same pic blown in high pixel resolution?

The tunnel model photo above does not loose too much resolution even when you zoom in. On a unrelated note, given this level of access, i guess the establishment will be able to estimate the rcs figures independently of what has been promised by the Russians?

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 21 Sep 2012 23:37

Bharadwaj wrote:The tunnel model photo above does not loose too much resolution even when you zoom in. On a unrelated note, given this level of access, i guess the establishment will be able to estimate the rcs figures independently of what has been promised by the Russians?

yes the rcs estimation is equally important as the aerodynamic performance and characteristics of the PAK-FA to build the FGFA. i believe this is just the first stage, as the heading states- "low speed wind tunnel model" after they have mastered this they will start prototyping with the FGFA hopefully.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Sep 2012 00:07

advanced material (like kevlar composites) plus internal skin deflection shaping can deliver magical stealth characteristic on certain bandwidth. So, if our scientists have gotten hold of that,then a stealth a/c could look normal and optimized for aerodynamics rather stealth. all depends on our lab boys.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 22 Sep 2012 01:06

^^^ saik you are material science guy too? I have been doing this stuff for a while, and I always am amazed by the concepts you propose.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Sep 2012 01:07

thoda materialistic hun ji /OT. know few folks who work in such areas.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 22 Sep 2012 01:43

^^^ nice.

Don · Post by **Don** » 22 Sep 2012 10:29

akshat.kashyap wrote:without china, it seems difficult to complete 600 export order.

but why would china will buy it they are developing their own stealth aircraft's.

Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. will be the potential customer.

You are right China won't buy Pak-Fa. Indonesia is already commited to KFX with the Korean as their next gen fighter. Pakfa is a big aircraft and expensive that might limit its export potential to some clients. Smalller simpler fifth gen fighters might have better chance. I think it will face competition from JSF in wealthier market like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Singapore and on developing nation market it will face competition from J-21 or KFX because a big fighter like Pakfa might be over kill for their needs or budget.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 22 Sep 2012 11:44

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Sep 2012 21:34

Indian Air Force Chief Outlines Fighter Jet Plans

An Indian negotiating team is heading for Russia to finalize details of the country’s participation in development of the Sukhoi T-50, also known by the Russian acronym PAK FA and by India as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). India is providing half of the expected $11 billion cost to develop the aircraft, and earlier signed a preliminary design contract worth $295 million. The Indian development contract is expected to take six months to conclude, AIN has learned.

In an exclusive interview, Indian air force chief of staff Norman Anil Kumar Browne told AIN, “The contract incorporates our specifications, which are very demanding.” Browne drew a distinction between the FGFA version and the original PAK FA, three prototypes of which are already flying. “We still do not know what [our] final version will be like until we finish. What I can say is that it will be very different from the Russian version, including weapons, avionics and sensors.”

The PAK FA development program needs to complete 5,000 sorties, Browne said. “So we have work to do. The fourth prototype will fly soon,” he predicted. Government defense contractor Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will be participating in design and development. Following signature of the contract, HAL officials and Indian Air Force (IAF) test pilots will be based in Russia for seven years during the R&D phase.

“[The IAF] will get three prototypes for testing–the first in 2014/15, the second in 2017 and in 2019 the final one, which will be the version we order,” said Browne. Russian air force commander Gen. Victor Bondarev said recently that his service would receive production aircraft in 2015.

The IAF had “preliminary thoughts” about acquiring the Lockheed Martin F-35 in 2004/2005, but signed the MoU with Russia for the FGFA in 2007. “I am confident the F-35 will be a good machine. But now we have a concrete plan. We have crossed the time [line] and cannot commit to more than one project,” said Browne when asked whether India could still consider the F-35.

India initially planned to have 166 single-seat and 48 two-seat FGFAs, but recently it decided to take all 214 as single-seaters. AIN understands that the decision was driven by the fidelity of modern simulation, as well as the additional cost of building two-seaters.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2012 01:15

That is very interesting shift - all single seaters.. mmm.. mission objectives are changing.

what would be better for deep strikes?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Sep 2012 07:43

There was a mention in an article a few months ago (posted on BR) that the move to the single seater was due to cost + that the technology could compensate. It is a combination of the two that made that possible - did not provide any details.

What is of great importance is that the FGFA will be a totally different plane than the PAK-FA, although the FGFA will rely on the PAK-FA's success. Like the MKI they plan on molding the FGFA out of the PAK-FA. But unlike the MKI the FGFA will be made in India only - as far as I can tell. Hope it has no bricks of any kind in it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2012 08:21

Hope it has no bricks revealable to china. IOW, give us the airframe, and engine.. we will integrated it all by ourselves.. what goes inside is ours. It may have russian, Indian, Israeli or USA parts in it. By the end of pakfa story, if we have not established (we may not be alive to realize this) our core engine manufacturing units, then we can write it on the great wall, that beg, borrow or steal is better than doing it with yours truly, and then cheating the nation from behind, by giving false promise about what is to be achieved to aam public.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Sep 2012 05:21

This is our most important aero project and we must devote max focus and concentration on making it happen as planned,esp. as it is a JV with a global giant with atrack record of accomplishment..Wasting resources on other fanciful paper planes must be avoided at all cost until the FGFA succeeds.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Sep 2012 06:52

what is the other fanciful paper plane that MUST be avoided?

Vishal, those are some excellent pakfa pics.. wonder why they still keep the rear not painted. This time the blue one appears more copperish.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 27 Sep 2012 16:25

Today is the 10th anniversary of the induction of the Su-30 MKI into the IAF.
The first unit to operate the type, 20 Sqn Lightnings , is now the Operational Conversion Unit of the Fleet where newly minted pilots go to fly and fight the Su 30 MKI.
I still recall seeing the Su-30 MKI prototype being demoed by Vyachaslev Averyanov at Aero India 2001 and wondering when will it turn up in IAF Markings.
It did,with a boom, on Sep 27,2002 at Lohegaon,Pune. All the pilots were from different backgrounds,pipelined through the Su30 Ks of 24 Sqn which was the co-;located unit.

It's been an incredible journey and congratulations,compliments and thanks are due to all the people involved.
From visionary IAF officers who grabbed this when it was offered by the Russians.To the Techies and the aircrews who designed it to be what they wished for.To third nation vendors who collabrated on this.
To maligned Babus,politicians,DPSUs who pulled together when needed.
To the ground crews who kept the aircraft superbly maintained in deployments to France,UK,Continental US and other countries en route.

The magnificient men who fly them to the edge and beyond.

Let this be the template for future inductions of high tech multi-national origin platforms.It can and will be bettered.

It has been a long incredible,painful and at at the same time an exhilarating trip for the IAF.

Some squadrons converted, some got re-raised.
Lightnings, Rhinos , Hunting Hawks , Pursoots , Lions , Trisonics , Winged Arrows and now Desert Tigers.

You have come a long way Baby!

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Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Sep 2012 16:47

^^ Geat Going and many more decades of safe flying for Sukhoi boys

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Oct 2012 12:52

By the end of 2012, "Saturn" finalize the preliminary design of the second stage engine for the PAK FA

Rybinsk (Yaroslavl region)., October 1. (ARMS-TASS). By the end of 2012 Research and Production Association (NPO) "Saturn" finalize the preliminary design of the second stage engine (product "117") for future aviation complex tactical aircraft (PAK FA). The information was the managing director of "Saturn," Ilya Fedorov.

"The engine of the first stage (product" 117C ") has been created for the Su-35. On the technical level it refers to the fighter class" 4 + + ". As for the engine of the second stage, the main difference between it and" 117S ", is that it will have a long service life, lower weight and modularity of the elements of design "- said Fedorov.

It is believed that the materials, technology, and other technical innovations derived engine in the civilian sector, will flow to the military segment. And vice versa.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2012 13:51

I thought the 5th gen engine was a total cleansheet design..a radical departure from the AL31 , but the above link makes it sound like a EDE variant + less weight.
is 117S the IOC engine of PAKFA or the 5th gen engine is another project ?