Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Sep 2012 12:47

Did not the A-3 demonstrate a Maneuvering RV (MaRV) which made DRDO claim that we now had ASAT capability ?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 21 Sep 2012 13:46

Singha wrote:>> A quiet order of 45-50 subs right after Arihant's induction should be done, an order to be full-filled over 10 years, would cost around $50 billion spread over a decade,

each such sub would cost not less than $3b, so 50b would only gets us some 15, not 50. and given the construction time of 5-7 yrs we would need to establish facilities to have atleast 5 subs in various stages of construction in parallel, so that after the 1st sub, we get 1-2 every yr like khan does. this is non-negotiable whether we build 15 or 50.

imo a good fleet would be:
15 Soryu type "heavy" SSK in a secondary strike role with nirbhay SLCM, laying mines
15 Scorpene "light" SSK for ASW patrols , safeguarding our sea routes and major operating bases, SF ops,
10 hunter-killer 6500t SSN each with 8xVL-SLCM and 40 weapons in fwd torpedo room - to hunt the enemy capital ships and 2nd strike role on infra targets
5 SSBN (12000t) with 12-14 Mirv SLBMs. 1-2 can always be kept on patrol with maybe a 3rd in times of emergency.
This is far more than what UK and France today can bring to table....they each have around 10 ssn and 5 ssbn only.

and even these 45 boats needs a MASSIVE amt of money and investment and more importantly political cover. total cost would be north of $200b.

Yes I am dead serious...

I think we can drive the costs down with a large enough order, an order of 45 to 50 surely won't cost as more than 1.5 billion per sub since we would need 5 to 6 being built in parallel at the same time. Developing new types takes decades, lots of money to be invested and I think waiting so long only forces us to buy expensive imports with local manufacture plagued by heavy delays. In our country it can take upto half a decade before trials begin for an RFP issued. This is unlikely to change any time soon. In the mean time, we get no where. After a long time we finally have a sub that we can call our own, time to support it and order. All the effort of ages past goes to waste if we order just 3 which is ridiculous. I think an order of 15 Arihant is an absolute minimum, we can have the following minimum setup.

3*12 = 36 Brahmos 1/2
3*12 = 36 Sagarika (24 conventional + 12 nukes)
3*12 = 36 Nirbhay
3*4 = 2*K-4 + 2*Agni6 i.e 22 warheads
3*4 = 2*K-4 + 2*Agni6 i.e 22 warheads

since Agni 6, Nirbhay, brahmos 1/2, Sagarika and K-4 are all Arihant capable we can use this baby in different roles. We don't need heavy boomers, our little sub can take care of SLBM roles too, 4 Agni-6 in an Arihant would have 40 warheads, more than enough to knockout a whole lot of note worthy targets.

Kilos and HDWs will be out of service sometime next decade, we will only have 6 Scorpenes + 6 P-75I + 3 Arihant which to be honest is a too small a sub fleet to effectively counter China/ Pak.

Moreover, our immediate goal is indeed to protect our coast line and our surrounding areas but if we ever want a serious footing across the Indian ocean which we would like to claim control over without China surrounding it, we need to think 30 years ahead and take some seriously bold steps. We need a sub fleet worthy of this vast ocean. A fleet of around 60 subs is a must on the long run to ensure no one messes about with us.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 13:53

http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=775825

Agni-III test fired

member_23844 · Post by **member_23844** » 21 Sep 2012 14:24

Agni III test fired

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-test-f ... 3-234.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Sep 2012 14:51

Septimus the problem is bigger and more sprawling the defence PSU here esp involving blue collar workers the more the looseness and waste - MDL, OFB, HAL....the smaller "tighter" shops involving white collar work usually in one or two prime locations tend to do better - ADA / DARE / LRDE / BEL to some extent.

we need to make some quantum leaps in how we manage big scale shipyard work to reach anywhere close to the build rates and scale needed for your vision. we need some really good expertise in how projects across 100s of vendors are executed. Hyundai shipyard manages to construct some 300+ container/dry bulk/LNG ships every yr for example...thats almost like 1 ship coming out every day. how do they do it? I am afraid we need some close handholding from Soko or japan to close the loop on that one.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Sep 2012 15:30

postnoon: India tests Agni-III missile

“The test was successful. It was conducted by strategic forces command of the Indian Army,” defence ministry spokesperson Ravi Kumar Gupta told IANS.

The latest test comes two days after the second successful launch of the 4,000-km range Agni-IV missile from the same base.

nash · Post by **nash** » 21 Sep 2012 16:51

rohitdkx wrote:Agni III test fired

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-test-f ... 3-234.html

on image indigenously developed surface to air...

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Sep 2012 16:57

Bheeshma wrote:http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=775825

Agni-III test fired

Data point...

The missile is equipped with hybrid navigation, guidance and control systems along with advanced on-board computers. The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO official said.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 21 Sep 2012 19:02

Successful Launch of Agni-3 by Strategic Forces Command

Agni-3 ballistic missile was successfully launched by India`s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) from wheeler island off the coast of Odishatoday. All mission objectives have been achieved. The missile was developed by DRDO and has already been inducted into the Armed Forces.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 21 Sep 2012 19:03

Singha wrote:Septimus the problem is bigger and more sprawling the defence PSU here esp involving blue collar workers the more the looseness and waste - MDL, OFB, HAL....the smaller "tighter" shops involving white collar work usually in one or two prime locations tend to do better - ADA / DARE / LRDE / BEL to some extent.

we need to make some quantum leaps in how we manage big scale shipyard work to reach anywhere close to the build rates and scale needed for your vision. we need some really good expertise in how projects across 100s of vendors are executed. Hyundai shipyard manages to construct some 300+ container/dry bulk/LNG ships every yr for example...thats almost like 1 ship coming out every day. how do they do it? I am afraid we need some close handholding from Soko or japan to close the loop on that one.

True, true these are mega scale under takings and we clearly lack the previous experience but we should make a start or else it will never happen. My vision is very ambitious but I think if we start putting in investments into these areas we will get somewhere in about 5 years but a start has to be made. A large order can kick start this process. A large order shows commitment to such processes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Sep 2012 19:19

So it was an induction flight and not a development flight.

Good job all around.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 21 Sep 2012 19:37

Good News.

We have to see the picture/video of the Agni-3 Launch....The SFC Missiles are generally coated with camouflaged Colour....and White colour goes for development trail....

Cheers!!!

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 20:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNWZ3GCe ... r_embedded

Saw this on another forum. Is it really A-III? The inter stage is missing.

Sorry thats just A-5 test being marked as A-III.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 21 Sep 2012 20:20

as per indian express this is not induction test. as pkdua pointed out above the missile is painted white and not SFC style. to me it seems like drdo educated the user how to fire it.

A day after the successful trial of 4000-km range Agni-IV missile, the country is gearing up to witness the first and much-awaited ‘user associate trial’ of 3000-km range Agni-III missile after its first phase production.

personally i would prefer to follow steps as follows:
1. click "unpack" (so the missile will be erected). show a progress bar while missile is erected.
2. a radio buttoned list of target cities should appear. select the target
3. click "fire"
4. "do you want to continue?" - yes/no. click yes.
5. "task completed. your parcel will be delivered in short time."

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 21 Sep 2012 20:28

The test was run by SFC, only DRDO guys were also present. The next A-3 trial will be by SFC alone.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Sep 2012 20:58

any pic of A5 shroud for the next launch (re: mirv)? would the shape be retained?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Sep 2012 21:05

as pkdua pointed out above the missile is painted white and not SFC style. to me it seems like drdo educated the user how to fire it.

Okaaay. Alright I am sorry I have to intervene.

That is a file picture. I got it on the mail from DRDO as well and it clearly says file picture.

There is no need for any confusion.

This was a SFC test and not a DRDO developmental trial. Pictures of which have not been made available. that picture is of Agni Teen - 02 with DRDO only markings as is evident.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Sep 2012 23:24

The missile is equipped with hybrid navigation, guidance and control systems along with advanced on-board computers. The electronic systems are hardened for higher vibration, thermal and acoustic effects, a DRDO official said.

The BGRV is a kind of MaRV and in a book the comment was the BGRV sounded like a freight train, the statement above regarding the recent A-3 test gels with the MaRV context, again its all speculation

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 22 Sep 2012 05:07

Rakshaks, a favour please...........

Some time within the last half year, I saw a video of a heavy DRDO-made missile launch (probably here, or in the BR news feed).

The video clearly showed the missile conducting a 'corkscrew maneuver' very soon after launch, during early boost phase.

Can someone kindly point me to that video?

Thanks in advance,

RK

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Sep 2012 06:21

the PAD interceptor does it. you can see it from 2:50 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jy95n38tDY

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 22 Sep 2012 06:30

Singha wrote:the A3 sounds like precursor tech dev tool for A5 which will be the volume production missile.
A3 might still be kept in service to cart a massive 1 ton crude boosted fission device if we dont have lighter H-bombs in working shape...a kind of insurance policy to not rely totally on h-bomb tested only once (not I am not getting into that debate)

Btw, contrary to some suggestions in this forum that A3 is for a different/heavy FBF payload (because its 1.5T throwaway weight), Avinash Chander had clarified in a Frontline interview that its payload configuration was suboptimal. And the payload was made lighter due to better packaging in A4. So, nothing Chankian there. Its of course good news that we have a missile that can throw 1.5T over 3000 KM

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Sep 2012 07:11

Ravi K, its the Agni 1:

Roy saab, the SS-N-16 looks like is a torpedo that fits in 650mm tube and its flying straight out of the water, whatever the mechanism is

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 15:04

The Agni 3 & Agni 5 will be converted to K4 (3500 km) & K5 (5000 km) SLBMs, respectively. Both share the short stubby profile required for an SLBM. The K4 will be launched from the Arihant while the K5 will have to wait for a bigger boat. The huge payload capacity of the Agni 3 suggests that K4 will be MIRV capable. In the case of a single warhead, its range will increase from the officially stated that 3500 km. This will allow Arihant class submarines to launch their missiles from much farther than initially thought.

The Agni 5 is still undergoing testing. Once the land based missile is perfected, the SLBM work will start. China claims that Agni 5 has a range of 8000 km. This is the same range as the JL 2 SLBM. The K5 will therefore, match China's SLBM range.

The K5 carrying boats will relieve the Arihant class from its deterrent duties. They can be reconfigured to launch conventional munitions like K15, Nirbhay & other missiles capable of being launched underwater. This will give a huge boost to the IN's undersea capabilities and cannot be provided by non nuclear powered platforms.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 17:05

The Brahmos question is being raised in relation to IN's Project 75I for its next line of SSKs. The IN wants the Brahmos to be launched from torpedo tubes. Brahmis Corp. insists on a VLS on the sub. The Russians are willing to modify their subs for Brahmos VLS. We might have to do it ourselves if we don't select the Russian option.

Another option is to design the sub ourselves. This will allow for greater customization and current + future missiles can be considered while designing it. Moreover, it allows greater strategic autonomy that only an indigenous product can provide. IN has been building its own ships for a while. Perhaps it should take a plunge for conventional submarines as well.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2012 18:28

nakul wrote:The Brahmos question is being raised in relation to IN's Project 75I for its next line of SSKs. The IN wants the Brahmos to be launched from torpedo tubes. Brahmis Corp. insists on a VLS on the sub. The Russians are willing to modify their subs for Brahmos VLS. We might have to do it ourselves if we don't select the Russian option.

Do you source for your info on where IN wanting Brahmos to be torpedo launched it is currently not possible due to the diameter of the missile we can launch it from 24in torpedo tubes but these are currently not the standard and Brahmos was not tested or designed for such a configuration.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 18:31

I remember reading it. I am searching for the link and post ASAP. The issue was VLS in IN's next line of subs. IN wanted VLS exclusively for SAMs. Brahmos Corp insisted on using VLS for Brahmos as well. This did not go down well with the IN.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Sep 2012 18:40

ramana wrote:So it was an induction flight and not a development flight.

Good job all around.

No it is already inducted, it was a 'regular' user trial.

In Friday’s mission, personnel of the Strategic Forces Command fired Agni-III from a rail mobile launcher at 1.20 a.m. after it was randomly picked up from the production lot. The 17-metre tall missile zeroed in on to the pre-designated target in the Indian Ocean with a two-digit accuracy after a 15-minute ballistic flight. It met all the mission objectives and there was no deviation from the parameters, official sources said. The trial was conducted as part of regular user-training.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 18:41

India’s Military Comes of Age: The BrahMos Missile

There are other possibilities. For example, the Indian Navy has “inducted”—that maddeningly vague term—its first nuclear-powered ballistic-missile submarine into the fleet while predicting the boat will be operational by the end of this year. But even if engineers have gotten the kinks out of the hull and its propulsion plant, INS Arihant will patrol the seas without working ballistic missiles to fire. As an interim measure, my friend Andrew Winner speculates (in our—finally!—forthcoming volume on nuclear strategy) that India will try to miniaturize a nuclear warhead sufficiently to fit on the BrahMos. The manufacturer is working on a missile variant that can be launched from torpedo tubes. If the technical details sort themselves out, that would give New Delhi an equivalent to the TLAM-N, the nuclear variant of the US Navy’s Tomahawk land-attack cruise missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Sep 2012 19:07

A3 pretending to be a IRBM is like a great dane mutt claiming to be a homely pomeranian. this thing can put a small truck 3000km away. even if its obese body is suboptimal for the stated range I am sure with a 500kg warhead it will go farther albeit not as "efficiently" and cheaply as a A4. I agree such a diameter missile is best used as a proper A5 type ICBM.

I very much doubt given the range limitation of brahmos it has any use as a n-tipped weapon. a small number of Nirbhay SLCM-N would however make perfect sense as a backup to ballistic missiles. nobody would want to bet the farm on cruise missiles being a good PRIMARY deterrent though...they are far easier to intercept than a proper BM.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Sep 2012 21:04

GD, The ancients say "Namo Namah!"(loosely :there is power in the name) similarly in missile tests the weight of the payload tested gives its own message.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Sep 2012 21:48

A 1:20am launch of A-3 makes it a night launch which is not the case I think based on the video

Nakul, A-3 in a 10m package will be K4? would the dia be 2.2m based on the Arihant launch tube or still be 2m? most likely they would use composite stages so the dia could change for SLBMs

lets say we reserve VLS for ballistic missiles only and find a wrapper system which lets cruise missiles and SAMs through torpedo tubes, this wrapper could be designed for 650mm tubes covering Brahmos-1 as well, I think TLAM uses such mechanism without needing to develop separate sub launched versions

Instead of ab-initio development of conventional subs, use Scorpene as the starting point since there is a good chance nuclear propulsion units can be mounted as they become available; the customization to the Scorpene could be a stretched version similar to the C-130J in concept

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 22:59

The K4 will be shorter and stubbier to fit in the launch tube of the Arihant. The loss of height will be compensated by increasing the diameter. Since there is only be going to be one missile per tube, it should be configured to maximise utilization of the available space. At 3500 km for 2.5 tonne payload, it allows a greatly increased range for lower payloads.

I believe the issue was not for SSBNs. It was for the next line of SSKs. which are meant to be equipped with SAMs. Cruise missiles will be launched from torpedo tubes. The IN wants VLS for SAMs however. Arihant & the other subs can launch cruise missiles from torpedo subs with the Arihant using VLS for SLBMs.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Sep 2012 23:31

Yup got the SSK bit right, Is the reaction time adverse in case of torpedo launch of a SAM vs a vertical launch? didn't seem so based on the SS-N-16 video

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 23:37

Comparing the video to an SLBM launch, the SLBM clears the water much faster. If the SAMs use the same mechanism as SLBMs, the missile could hit the target faster. On the contrary, a torpedo tube launched missile could break the surface from a distance allowing the submarine to mask its position. Its a time vs stealth trade off.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Sep 2012 23:49

if the targets are MPAs or Orions or Chinese AWACS flying on the open oceans, does the reaction time matter over compromising stealth? the VLS could be for ultra long range SAMs, like the 300-400km ones and they still can be launched from Torpedo tubes if a Brahmos-1 can be

or are we talking ABMs?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 22 Sep 2012 23:52

Guidance is a huge problem for submarines. The missile will have to use its onboard seeker to find the target. In that case, its best to fire a few and scoot. The VLS being faster makes more sense. The long range missiles would be fired at stationery targets removing the need for continuous target updates.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Sep 2012 23:58

nakul wrote:But even if engineers have gotten the kinks out of the hull and its propulsion plant, INS Arihant will patrol the seas without working ballistic missiles to fire. As an interim measure, my friend Andrew Winner speculates (in our—finally!—forthcoming volume on nuclear strategy) that India will try to miniaturize a nuclear warhead sufficiently to fit on the BrahMos. The manufacturer is working on a missile variant that can be launched from torpedo tubes. If the technical details sort themselves out, that would give New Delhi an equivalent to the TLAM-N, the nuclear variant of the US Navy’s Tomahawk land-attack cruise missile.

That is an editorial i think he got its facts mixed up and confused vls launch with launch from torpedo tube.

nakul wrote:Comparing the video to an SLBM launch, the SLBM clears the water much faster. If the SAMs use the same mechanism as SLBMs, the missile could hit the target faster. On the contrary, a torpedo tube launched missile could break the surface from a distance allowing the submarine to mask its position. Its a time vs stealth trade off.

That is cold launch it is being ejected out of pressurized canister same mechanism is used for Brahmos. SAMs are not canistered in land use because it is expensive while in long run it does allow cost savings since it reduces maintenance costs which however is not major constraint for solid propellant missiles (there are few exceptions Tor SAM uses cold launch). But the speed gain is very minimal and the risk for cold launch is if the missile motor fails to kick off you have 3 ton missile falling back on you.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 23 Sep 2012 00:03

That is an editorial i think he got its facts mixed up and confused vls launch with launch from torpedo tube.

If the Klub can be torpedo launched, so is the Brahmos capable of it. AFAIK, they have only used VLS for underwater launches. That is why their insistence on using VLS. On the other hand, IN wants them to develop a torpedo tuube launched version.

That is cold launch it is being ejected out of canister same mechanism is used for Brahmos. SAMs are not canistered in land use because it is expensive while in long run it does allow cost savings since it reduces maintenance costs which however is not major constraint for solid propellant missiles (Tor SAM uses cold launch). But the speed gain is very minimal and the risk for cold launch is if the missile motor fails to kick off you 3 ton missile falling back on you.

If they can launch K15 from a VLS, a SAM would be much lighter anyday. I think the short range version that is going to be launched from submarines will be light and have a powerful seeker. Unlike land based SAMs, the submarine lacks a guidance radar. So only when the target is near & threatening, the launch will be executed. Think of a do or die situation because a submarine will be loath to give away its position.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 23 Sep 2012 00:18

DRDO stated categorically that Agni-V and K4-SLBM are different animals. SLBM will be much more heavy structure to tolerate much higher pressures post-launch compared to a land based ICBM.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 23 Sep 2012 00:24

The Agni-V will be closer to K5-SLBM. The conditions for underwater launch will necessitae changes to the land based Agni-V. However, the SLBM would not be possible without the Agni. The common components such as composite body, guidance systems, ABM measures will be common to both variants. I think the all composite third stage will be a huge help in reducing the weight and hence dimensions to allow the missile to fit in the confined space of a submarine. We are still a few years away from K4 & K5. Moreover, the Arihant will not be able to carry the K5, so a new submarine will have to be launched for that.