China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 25 Sep 2012 05:04

^^^

Kolkata class will not wait for LR-SAM to be operational, only launchers will be fitted for now. Missile test will happen afterwards, once it will be ready.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Sep 2012 07:22

Makes sense . They can complete the 1 yr of sea trials without any more delay. Its a big ship and a huge testplan for sure.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2012 08:57

\

Brando wrote: (**Notice the Ballast ports and the "rust" on pride of China's fleet: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo ... 824_10.htm **)

Congratulations, you Chinese are now the proud owners of the worlds largest ~~rust bucket~~ garbage scow!

In the photo you have linked I am guessing that you are referring to the 14 holes pouring out water as "ballast" ports. I have never noticed so many holes pouring water from the side of a ship. What are they? The rust marks suggest that water is kept pouring from them regularly.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Sep 2012 10:53

maybe they are emptying the ballast tanks for easier transit down a shallow stretch of water. could be multipurpose holes to get rid of "grey" water as well like from showers, deck cleaning hoses and kitchens. the ship is riding quite high (the red part visible below the grey part)

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 25 Sep 2012 11:34

Brando wrote:http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/50 ... 15a22.jpg/

thats quite a big ship. thanks Brando!

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 25 Sep 2012 13:04

adityadange wrote:
Brando wrote:http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/50 ... 15a22.jpg/
thats quite a big ship. thanks Brando!

Which ship is that ? Kolkata class ?

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 25 Sep 2012 15:25

^^^ yes

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Sep 2012 16:00

aye, once it gets the MFSTAR and barak8 arrays, will kick the behind of anything except the Type45(if they fund its full armament ever) and the Aegis/Kongo/Sejong troika.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 25 Sep 2012 16:12

The Chinese aircraft carrier has been handed to the navy without a single aircraft on board. The official word is that it is an aircraft carrier experiment. With the handing over complete, it means the navy's part begins such as landing & taking off from aircraft carriers, handling support ops & managing the huge contingment on board. The real aircraft carrier threat is probably a few years down the line when they figure out how to handle the ropes. This was merely timed like the J 31 revelation.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Sep 2012 16:36

Singha wrote:aye, once it gets the MFSTAR and barak8 arrays, will kick the behind of anything except the Type45(if they fund its full armament ever) and the Aegis/Kongo/Sejong troika.

Well. dunno. The Kolkata is a "finer" ship. Similar length as other two but with around 2000 ton less displacement from a smaller beam and hence "finer" and more hydrodynamically efficient.

Also, the has better anti ship capabilities than either with the Brahmos I think. The Japanese ship doesn't have a land attack capability at all , and carries no helo and hence rather limited in anti sub. The Korean ship does carry two helicopters like the Kolkata though.

Type 45 is most similar to Kolkata and has great anti air, decent anti sub, and limited anti ship. but no land attack. So from the looks of it, the Yindoo Banias seem to have packed a decent armament fit with nice all round, anti air, ship , sub and land attack capability, into a thin starving hull form!

The only quibble I have is with the Ukranian/ dated ex soviet power plants. The Type 45 does have a more upto date propulsion concept. But then, hey, what is the point in just getting there, if you dont have the armement eh, Brittania ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Sep 2012 17:19

I wuz referring to the bigger aaw stick they can carry in the form of sm2 and sm6. Also aegis radar seen updates for tbmd and japan will mount this update and evolved sm2 missiles on kongo ships while delegating aaw to a new class of ddg being built with domestic radar.

When the 120km range iaf version of barak is developed maybe it can be navalized as well.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 25 Sep 2012 17:33

vina wrote:
Singha wrote:aye, once it gets the MFSTAR and barak8 arrays, will kick the behind of anything except the Type45(if they fund its full armament ever) and the Aegis/Kongo/Sejong troika.
Well. dunno. The Kolkata is a "finer" ship. Similar length as other two but with around 2000 ton less displacement from a smaller beam and hence "finer" and more hydrodynamically efficient.

Also, the has better anti ship capabilities than either with the Brahmos I think. The Japanese ship doesn't have a land attack capability at all , and carries no helo and hence rather limited in anti sub. The Korean ship does carry two helicopters like the Kolkata though.

Type 45 is most similar to Kolkata and has great anti air, decent anti sub, and limited anti ship. but no land attack. So from the looks of it, the Yindoo Banias seem to have packed a decent armament fit with nice all round, anti air, ship , sub and land attack capability, into a thin starving hull form!

The only quibble I have is with the Ukranian/ dated ex soviet power plants. The Type 45 does have a more upto date propulsion concept. But then, hey, what is the point in just getting there, if you dont have the armement eh, Brittania ?

Please see my response in indian naval discussion since the discussion is being OT here.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1343517

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 26 Sep 2012 01:36

Still only boiler-clearing hrrmphs and smoke from the drones? Tugs and photoshop seem to be the centerpieces of this new carrier doctrine that is causing panic all over the world.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Sep 2012 02:52

From chindu

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... epage=true

good job china.. keep up the race

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Sep 2012 06:48

The worlds only operational carrier with no aircraft

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 26 Sep 2012 11:44

Singha wrote:The worlds only operational carrier with no aircraft

To be fair, Britannica was also planning to do the same!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Sep 2012 12:13

Cheen could order a few Mig29K

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 26 Sep 2012 14:23

from the report:

The PLA said the carrier would continue to serve “for scientific research purposes” besides military training.

i wonder why one would need an aircraft carrier to do "scientific research". have they set up labs in the hanger area and checking effects on plant when grown at sea level? or experimenting on various mixtures of concrete and tar for road construction for the runway? How about buying a 5000W music system and say we are not going to make any sound pollution? I pity the chinese.

Don · Post by **Don** » 27 Sep 2012 14:25

Before and after

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 27 Sep 2012 14:46

adityadange wrote:from the report:
The PLA said the carrier would continue to serve “for scientific research purposes” besides military training.
i wonder why one would need an aircraft carrier to do "scientific research". have they set up labs in the hanger area and checking effects on plant when grown at sea level? or experimenting on various mixtures of concrete and tar for road construction for the runway? How about buying a 5000W music system and say we are not going to make any sound pollution? I pity the chinese.

could mean anything...can also mean doing research for their own aircraft carriers

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 27 Sep 2012 15:10

The PLA said the carrier would continue to serve “for scientific research purposes” besides military training.

To learn how to take off & land from aircraft carriers. That is their priority at the moment. They need some airpower in the SCS and what better than a floating airstrip.

It is a powerful tool of hard diplomacy. It does not need to have a huge airwing attached. A powerful carrier with multiple frigates & destroyers can intimidate most nations. Since China does not have any disputes away from home, it will be used to maintain air supemacy in the near abroad.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Sep 2012 15:23

the mystery is which a/c will be used? su33 from ukraine? mig29k from russia? J10N from cheen?
so far no clear details.

for such a large ship does not make sense as a ASW helicopter carrier.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Sep 2012 15:26

Only the MiG-29K (or some variant thereof) would be credible. I wonder how much progress that Su-33 has made after Russia (or USSR) abandoned it - though for H&D and mine is bigger than yours, this might be the answer.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 27 Sep 2012 15:36

Most probably a Chinese plane. A Russi plane would already been sitting on the deck by now. They have a point to prove to the world. They have arrived. It is imperative to show off their homegrown techs in order to drive home the point.

A 5th gen stealth plane would be the best option. But that might be too much even for the Chinese. Just that they won't stop at anything to showcase their prowess.

Don · Post by **Don** » 27 Sep 2012 15:38

Singha wrote:the mystery is which a/c will be used? su33 from ukraine? mig29k from russia? J10N from cheen?
so far no clear details.

for such a large ship does not make sense as a ASW helicopter carrier.

Come on its J-15 for sure, I can guarantee it. You guys know so little about Chinese military guided only by your assumptions. I don't read or speak Chinese and I know alot more. And yes thats the WS-10 engines about 4 regiments of J-11B is now using it.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 27 Sep 2012 15:57

^^^

It seems they have been practicing touch downs on the carrier. there were skid marks on it when it was inducted in the CN. That could also imply that the Su 33 deal with Russia is a closed matter.

Don · Post by **Don** » 27 Sep 2012 16:04

nakul wrote:^^^

It seems they have been practicing touch downs on the carrier. there were skid marks on it when it was inducted in the CN. That could also imply that the Su 33 deal with Russia is a closed matter.

^^^

wong · Post by **wong** » 27 Sep 2012 19:33

Don wrote:
Singha wrote:the mystery is which a/c will be used? su33 from ukraine? mig29k from russia? J10N from cheen?
so far no clear details.

for such a large ship does not make sense as a ASW helicopter carrier.
Come on its J-15 for sure, I can guarantee it. You guys know so little about Chinese military guided only by your assumptions. I don't read or speak Chinese and I know alot more. And yes thats the WS-10 engines about 4 regiments of J-11B is now using

Forget knowing about the Chinese military, these guys have trouble with knowing the current state of their own military. It's always this or that vaporware just around the corners in 2 or 3 years, always 2 to 3 years. I'm still waiting for that AK/FNC clone called the INSAS to finally work right so they don't have to import small arms (55+ years after China mastered the Type 56). If I was going to be shot at from 300 yards away, I hope and pray the shooter has an INSAS and not a Colt M16.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 27 Sep 2012 19:42

Forget knowing about the Chinese military, these guys have trouble with knowing the current state of their own military. It's always this or that vaporware just around the corners in 2 or 3 years, always 2 to 3 years. I'm still waiting for that AK/FNC clone called the INSAS to finally work right so they don't have to import small arms (55+ years after China mastered the Type 56). If I was going to be shot at from 300 yards away, I hope and pray the shooter has an INSAS and not a Colt M16.

Well, if informed Chinese like wong claim that the carrier will operate LCA, we know how serious they are about sharing information instead of trolling. Unlike Indians, they dont mention the problems faced by the carrier leaving us to do all the hard work.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 27 Sep 2012 19:48

I just say one thing, never underestimate chinese, i have many of them in my office. Just have some past experience with them.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 27 Sep 2012 20:19

wong wrote: Forget knowing about the Chinese military, these guys have trouble with knowing the current state of their own military. It's always this or that vaporware just around the corners in 2 or 3 years, always 2 to 3 years. I'm still waiting for that AK/FNC clone called the INSAS to finally work right so they don't have to import small arms (55+ years after China mastered the Type 56). If I was going to be shot at from 300 yards away, I hope and pray the shooter has an INSAS and not a Colt M16.

type 56 is just a copy of ak47 while insas is based on ak47+fn/fal. additionally its a LMG and carbine too. no chinese brain is added in type 56.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2012 20:34

There is a mantra in the Rig Veda that says "Do not underestimate the Chinese". That is why it is necessary for every Indian to chant that to other Indians and remind each other of that ancient wisdom which would otherwise be forgotten in a minute, without that constant reminder

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Sep 2012 20:44

It is a powerful tool of hard diplomacy. It does not need to have a huge airwing attached. A powerful carrier with multiple frigates & destroyers can intimidate most nations. Since China does not have any disputes away from home, it will be used to maintain air supemacy in the near abroad.

Rubbish! That Chinese carrier is a sitting duck. And will be taken out by either air power or surface combatants with any decently armed adversary (like say even Vietnam, leave out Japan /Unkil etc).

The Chinese are 20 years away from atleast being able to deploy a half way capable carrier first. Small things like first being able to take off and land from the carrier could be a start ! The Chinese have ZERO experience with carriers. Forget about actually having used that in any war, even ust driving around in one is a totally new experience for them.

Don · Post by **Don** » 27 Sep 2012 20:50

wong wrote: Forget knowing about the Chinese military, these guys have trouble with knowing the current state of their own military. It's always this or that vaporware just around the corners in 2 or 3 years, always 2 to 3 years. I'm still waiting for that AK/FNC clone called the INSAS to finally work right so they don't have to import small arms (55+ years after China mastered the Type 56). If I was going to be shot at from 300 yards away, I hope and pray the shooter has an INSAS and not a Colt M16.

Wong please tone it down.....

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 27 Sep 2012 20:54

vina wrote:
It is a powerful tool of hard diplomacy. It does not need to have a huge airwing attached. A powerful carrier with multiple frigates & destroyers can intimidate most nations. Since China does not have any disputes away from home, it will be used to maintain air supemacy in the near abroad.
Rubbish! That Chinese carrier is a sitting duck. And will be taken out by either air power or surface combatants with any decently armed adversary (like say even Vietnam, leave out Japan /Unkil etc).

The Chinese are 20 years away from atleast being able to deploy a half way capable carrier first. Small things like first being able to take off and land from the carrier could be a start ! The Chinese have ZERO experience with carriers. Forget about actually having used that in any war, even ust driving around in one is a totally new experience for them.

You missed the point. It is not a tool of war. It is a tool of intimidation. Which is to say that the small fishing boat near your territorial water is backed not by n ships but n+1 ships. Even China is not going to use it in a real war. The best they can do is send fishing boats. Meanwhile, they continue to increase n to n+1, n+2, n+3... ships. It is a naval version of the famous PLA waves. Number, not quality is their goal. It is extremely useful for port visits & photo ops. The real intimdation was done by stopping pineapple imports from Phillipines

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 27 Sep 2012 21:04

+1 ^^^^^

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 27 Sep 2012 21:31

Nobody is underestimating them. They seem to be underestimating the amount of experience and hard work IN has put in Chakra/Arihant and nearly 50 years of carrier experience. The J-15 will be an evolutionary dead end like Su-33 and nothing than USN, IN or JMSDF or even SOKO can't handle with ease.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Sep 2012 21:34

why do you need to even estimate in the first place? under or over! it does not matter. just focus on the enemy signature points and kill it.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 27 Sep 2012 22:05

This problem of estimation is going to increase as China increasingly looks to psy ops to portray its power. The revelation of J20 & J31 were purely timed to coincide with American visits. Even the Liaoning induction was timed with the Japan dispute. The Vikramaditya should have been inducted in 2011 itself if the criteria for induction is to move without an airwing. The delay is due to the proper process we carry out (Vikramaditya, LCA, Nag) prior to induction. The chinese method is to hire a few photographers and make the pics go viral.

We did not hear a squeak regarding the Indo Vietnamese strategic discussion ended a day ago. But if it was China meeting Afghanistan for dialogue, it caught the world's press attention. Jingos must know that we deliberately keep things under the radar and underestimate our capabilities. Hint: Range of Brahmos, Shaurya. The strategy of hide your claws & reveal it when needed is seemingly being undermined by the Chinese as they increasingly see themselves to be the second largest economy in the world.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 28 Sep 2012 01:15

Bheeshma wrote:Nobody is underestimating them. They seem to be underestimating the amount of experience and hard work IN has put in Chakra/Arihant and nearly 50 years of carrier experience. The J-15 will be an evolutionary dead end like Su-33 and nothing than USN, IN or JMSDF or even SOKO can't handle with ease.

you are not getting my point. I was saying with a angle of our lackin in preparedness and action plans on our eastern side (like we face the same in 1999, the lack of coordination and preparedness, we had a tragic loss of 600 of our soldiers). BRO yet not have any 4 - 5 year plan for the north eastern border. I just had a trip up to utter kaashi border area, and still on the whole way the road was like the single lane on most of the places and the road condition was like you are on a off road trip.
so, my point is IA still need 2 3 weeks of time for any mass deployment on the border side, which is too high when we compare it with other side of the border.
Things are changing but we need a pase.