LCA News and Discussions

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Sep 2012 15:15

Chronologic examination of the past

. Whatever is that

?

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 03 Sep 2012 15:24

sacchi main...I never understand Phillip Saars posts.....

kit · Post by **kit** » 03 Sep 2012 17:07

events according to / arranged in a time frame .. Seriously !

India will always have to work in a technological lacuna ., it's geopolitics mandates that in the coming decades. no country will be providing it bleeding edge tech unless it develops them when in case it will be offered co production / development.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 03 Sep 2012 17:49

^^^ with collaborations, we will get ahead. Already we see that India collaborates with most of the world in defence projects. EU, Rus, IL, USA.

Thats great. Mil tech is absolutely like science and cutting edge RnD. It requires loads of collaboration, research, etc. We'll get there yet Sir. And we'll beat the Chinese at their own game.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 03 Sep 2012 21:54

The LCA is Indias toddling steps in the fixedwing aeronitical sector.
Yes it is very slow, yes it may not be the best, However the ground work that has gone behind the scenes in creating this project, Will give us the confidence to 1) bargain with other aeronitical powers when it comes to joint collabarations. FGFA being case in point, Yes it is not asmuch as we would have liked, but we joined up late.
If we start comparing the gripen with the lca as far as world markets go , the LCA will eat it for breakfast on capibility / cost ratio. Hypothetically if the LCA were a chinise project it would be flooding world markets and sending shivers down the western manafacturers spines.
The sad part is this was an orphan project as far as the IAF was concerned, even now it is being treated like a step child.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Sep 2012 22:45

^well said. good one.. had it been chippanda project, there would be at least 5 chippanda clout nation lined up for purchase., pakis to start with. we have no such influence anywhere in the world..how is that? 'cause, we can't even influence our own people to take the right decisions.
/sad OT.

I know Kaveri is delinked from LCA upto Mk2.. I hope we have an Mk3... with Kaveri with a bang for the buck indigenous effect, and perhaps a modified airframe at it, with a twin Kaveri engine at whatever accepted T:W., and stages as the test bed for future programs. We need massive investment, funding, and more importantly top Gov/MoD/IAF commitment for this.
--

Mr Bhu, no collaboration will fetch you technology even with twice the money you would want to shell. OTOH, if you put 50% money for R&D, it will pay you back, not in full, but with a minimum of double. Besides, there is no evaluation for freedom.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 03 Sep 2012 22:52

^^. True. Indians have almost never been able to act as one. Never in history, against common enemies of Islam, nor with the British.

Internecine rivalries rule.

India Europe equal equal.

China America equal equal.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Sep 2012 08:16

IAF has been lobbying to have one of its men at helm at the HAL to improve coordination and working efficiency between the two as several critical projects like the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are running behind schedule.

However, the Ministry of Defence did not heed to this demand and instead went ahead with the time tested formula by appointing a Chief selected by the Public Enterprise Selection Board (PESB).

Among the programs which the IAF wants HAL to prioritise is the IJT.

ah ha.. these are two issues here.. so it is entirely not a problem of DRDO vs. The Forces.. but the GoI/MoD playing the bad regulator part.

However, I am happy all that we ask for here in this thread is heard silently by all three - DRDO-Force-MoD. It is a good sign indeed for the future.

Further, I disagree with certain priorities set by IAF... but it could be some matter of truth. A third body for regulation/inspection and check post group is ideal especially when we have established a strong baboodom here. So, at least a CAGish hold can be available for public to scrutinize at bird's eye view level, and nothing we need to know about secrets and security matter. But, such management aspects must happen part of the process at the beginning rather at a time it is beyond repair of any projects.

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Sep 2012 10:59

Deleted

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Sep 2012 11:05

Almost all Indian aircraft projects are suffering from massive delays:-

saras - Long time no see! Naturally Dornier drones on.

IJT- how difficult can it be to integarate a second gen aircraft with foreign components? Or are we giving a helping hand for additional Hawk imports?

Rustom-2 - Integration and first flight seems 4 years Away. Engines, fuel system, props, radar, EO, avionics, everything is imported and we still need 10 more years fir squadron level entry. Heron will win more contracts.

LCA- less said the better

And we laugh at TATAs for just making the cabin of S-92 helo. I think we need to up the R&D budgets and have more Pvt sector involvement.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Sep 2012 18:15

^what does that tell?

process correction.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 05 Sep 2012 22:56

Tejas IOC pushed back to 2013

The initial operational clearance (IOC) for India’s locally designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been further delayed to mid-2013, postponing its active squadron service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) to 2015, if not beyond.

Officials said the LCA was expected to obtain full IOC after participating in the IAF’s ‘Iron Fist’ air exercises at Pokhran in the Rajasthan desert in February 2013.

“Tejas will display its capabilities during the exercise when its [weapon] lethality and precision will be tested,” Air Marshal Anjan Kumar Gogoi of South Western Command said on 24 August.

IAF officials estimate the single-engine LCA will eventually secure IOC by mid-2013, with final operational clearance (FOC) following in 2015.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 Sep 2012 09:46

arijitkm wrote:Tejas IOC pushed back to 2013

The initial operational clearance (IOC) for India’s locally designed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has been further delayed to mid-2013, postponing its active squadron service with the Indian Air Force (IAF) to 2015, if not beyond.

Officials said the LCA was expected to obtain full IOC after participating in the IAF’s ‘Iron Fist’ air exercises at Pokhran in the Rajasthan desert in February 2013.

“Tejas will display its capabilities during the exercise when its [weapon] lethality and precision will be tested,” Air Marshal Anjan Kumar Gogoi of South Western Command said on 24 August.

IAF officials estimate the single-engine LCA will eventually secure IOC by mid-2013, with final operational clearance (FOC) following in 2015.

Pathetic.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Sep 2012 10:36

merlin wrote: Pathetic.

I would say sad, but considering the bureaucratic and Establishment enemity which the programme faces, late is better than never.

FYI- Former Parlimentarian Suresh Kalmadi introduced a bill in Parliment to kill the LCA programme, and we know he is really close to our elites to who make decesions and probably arms lobby sponsored.

This is an open way in which they wanted to kill the programme, one wonders behind the scenes, how many bureaucratic hurdles have been made to kill the programme.

The only we can deliver is if fix the blame where is due on Political leaders, if thier political fate is linked to a sucessful programme, then only will be see better achivements when it comes to such programmes.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 06 Sep 2012 21:32

My Latest Photo:
Group Captain Suneet Krishna re-establishing contact with Terra Firma > http://www.airliners.net/photo/2156894/L/

More Tejas/LCAs http://vishal.jolapara.in/2011/02/16/hal-tejas/

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2012 03:08

babooze can kill anything.. but it is a national shame to say that., and the only cause is that "WE" the people made them. For how many more years are we going to be keep complaining about baboo did this and that.. ?

WE know they are like that? then why???? get them to where they are now and killing everything WE Like?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 07 Sep 2012 10:44

SaiK wrote:babooze can kill anything.. but it is a national shame to say that., and the only cause is that "WE" the people made them. For how many more years are we going to be keep complaining about baboo did this and that.. ?

WE know they are like that? then why???? get them to where they are now and killing everything WE Like?

Why single out the 'babooze' when the Services have numerable examples from reluctantly supporting DRDO projects to downright killing the ones that actually succeed? And why not the DRDO that has innumerably given deadlines out of a hat? The delays for the past 3-4 years haven't occurred because of the 'babooze' but its the scientists who have not been able to deliver. Plain and simple.

Blaming the political/IAS class is fashionable on BRF now but its hard to overlook Services and DRDO's blunders. And btw, it is the same 'we' who make up the Services and the scientist community as well.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 07 Sep 2012 14:34

Nothing Pathetic, FOC should only be possible after LCA mk-2 takes to the air with new engines, cockpit, hopefully AESA, new AESA based EW suite etc in early 2014, so 2015 FOC is not a bad time since LCA mk-2 will in most areas be better than EF and Raffy. It will also have a better radar than the Rafale whether they choose Vixen-E or a EL-2052 derivative is developed, better cockpit than both EF and Rafale, aerial performance better than EF and Raffy, certainly with a lot more rugged engines capable of provide very high A0A performance without TVC, lower rcs perhaps. So we may a bit slow today but by 2015, we'll have a bird able to hold it's own against the toughest of birds out there.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 07 Sep 2012 15:11

^^ true that.

Somehow , some part of me also wishes we had an american bird in our stables.

Notice how quickly they delivered the C 17s and the C 130s and the P 8 I

mody · Post by **mody** » 07 Sep 2012 17:38

Setimus... not sure if your post was rhetorical or not. If it was not rhetorical, then maybe you need to change the timeline for the MkII with all the features that you listed out.... to 2025, instead of 2015.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 07 Sep 2012 18:21

rafale, ef2k, grippen all were given IOCs FOCs with much less tests, while for Tejas we're............

what to say.

Libian war showed all the atg features eurofighter is still missing and might only get them by 2018 (probably if some Bharat or brazil puts money for it).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2012 19:45

see.. re-usability aspects are ignored when you say things at 50k feet. rafale, ef2k and especially gripen has the most outsource components.. it is like saying, I use 90% of components from USA, and certify only the integration parts.. that is simple for Gripen certifications.

for LCA, there is a lot more to test.. on the integrated components and LRUs. For each mission profile, lot of components may not be even engaged.. so it is a long drawn process. The more LRUs gets certified and re-used say for AMCA, AMCA certification would be faster.

There is point in recertifying same LRU as long as the mission and usage is the same.. If they are used differently, then certification takes longer time. I am sure, control laws unless changed need not be certified again.. similarly, when Kaveri matures and certified to fly with LCA, then it does not need long drawn certification process for AMCA.

So, this is irritating and at the same time pays us in the long run.. of course if babooze wants to kill it as many say, then we have no other option. Project management and planning is not simple for such critical systems.. The reason many advanced nations have capability and maturity model established.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Sep 2012 21:40

As of March, the LCA had undergone more than 1,816 test flights up to speeds of Mach 1.4. Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-1) was achieved in January 2011. According to the Indian defense ministry, the Tejas has undertaken weapon trials, including flights with a laser-guided bomb. Various sensor trials also were conducted early this year. All told, the Tejas program has clocked 1,903 flights, totaling 1,120 hr.

The Indian air force (IAF), which has ordered 40 Tejas Mk-1s from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), has begun to induct the LCA, according to a ministry official. Out of the 40 aircraft, 20 were ordered under the IOC standards, with the rest under Final Operational Clearance standards. IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons over the next 10 years, the official adds.

The first two squadrons, comprising 40 aircraft, will have first-generation Mk. 1 fighters. The additional four squadrons would be more-powerful Tejas Mk. 2s. The final price tag of the Mk. 2 only will be available after its development phase is complete , the official says.

The Indian government so far has approved 118.45 billion rupees ($2.1 billion) for the development of the Tejas, of which 50.51 billion rupees has been spent, the official says.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 489579.xml

ie, we still have $1b odd left for dev.. half of that should be on Kaveri imho, and the rest on augmented versions.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2012 00:44

Nothing has changed.The nexus between the MOD,political bosses and PSUs has ensured mediocrity in Indian defence indigenisation,non-accountability for failure and inordinate delays and massive cost overruns,with "padma" awards being the punishment for such project heads and babus (not to mention the cream being skimmed off the massive DRDO budget) ! In Russia and elsewhere the heads are sacked for failure,but our political bosses treat such results and their godfathers as "sacred cows" ,with the scams behind them swept under the carpet for obvious reasons.

Forget about the LCA arriving even by 2015,with babus heading the project instead of IAF officers,the results will be the same "time tested " ones that we've experienced after decades of delays and thousands of wasted crores of taxpayer's money.The LCA will arrive no doubt one day in avatar MK-1 as a "technology demonstrator",while the MMRCA and FGFA are being inducted.As for the IJT,if it fails there are several IJTs readily available,why the advanced version of the Pilatus can actually replace the need for an IJT too.At least there is hope for the latter two projects,as the Rafale is well into service with the French,combat experienced and in production ,as for the FGFA, the Russians with Putin's "prod" up their nether ends,will somehow ensure success or suffer a Siberian retirement!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2012 01:09

Philip wrote: ! In Russia and elsewhere the heads are sacked for failure,but our political bosses treat such results and their godfathers as "sacred cows" ,with the scams behind them swept under the carpet for obvious reasons.

Forget about the LCA arriving even by 2015,with babus heading the project instead of IAF officers,the results will be the same "time tested " ones that we've experienced after decades of delays and thousands of wasted crores of taxpayer's money...as for the FGFA, the Russians with Putin's "prod" up their nether ends,will somehow ensure success or suffer a Siberian retirement!

1. It is neither Russian model nor the Indian model that fits. American model is what that is needed for technology and management sense, and our babooze can still maintain parity in political sense.

2. Scams and corruption can kill any nation on the planet, be it Russkie or the Khaans., what make India the cream while the rest of the honest nations should suffer on that analogy? A wrong is universally wrong, because it would fail the right test all over the right educated world.

Rest of the logic in another thread. But, we just can't ignore the needs by the fact corruption happens. Throwing out corruption is in one billion hands.. and not with either Babooze nor DRDO. people have the power.

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 09 Sep 2012 09:34

Sorry if the post should go to some other forum, but a quick check if the Sitara IJT has been inducted into the IAF?

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 09 Sep 2012 09:37

Folks reflect on this single statistic,
Since 1998 when the software developed with khan company, 12 years have passed and we are yet to induct even a token number of tejas into the force....

I dont know what else to say?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Sep 2012 11:40

Do you known what happened to the software that was developed with khan ????

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 09 Sep 2012 12:01

krishnan wrote:Do you known what happened to the software that was developed with khan ????

Were the CLAWS 'Developed' by/with/at USA or was it merely In the process of being tested/verified at the facilities available there when the facilities hired and paid for by India were rudely snatched from us?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 09 Sep 2012 12:05

mody wrote:Setimus... not sure if your post was rhetorical or not. If it was not rhetorical, then maybe you need to change the timeline for the MkII with all the features that you listed out.... to 2025, instead of 2015.

AESA, AESA based EW suite, Large displays, IRST, if needed optical locator systems, are available right now off the shelf and quite a few JVs are underway, LCA mk-2 will have a lot of off the shelf components, there is no need to develop everything our selves, LCA mk-2 with the GE F414 won't need TVC since that engine allows high A0A performance naturally. Whether we pick a derivative of the EL-2052 or the Vixen radar, we'll have full-TOT on it. 2015 is not an unreachable target. Moreover, work is being done in all these areas on LCA mk-2 certainly is not just about a new engine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2012 19:10

krishnan wrote:Do you known what happened to the software that was developed with khan ????

assimilated as seized!

what do you expect being a slave?

It is a shame that people in desh of 21st century still think they can jumpstart technology with ToTing and such relationship.. never ever.. even the brahmos deal will not get you the h/w technology. If we want it, we have to do it all by ourselves, from ground up.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 20 Sep 2012 12:24

Working from home and so saw a Su-30 around 3 hours back and a grey LCA just now

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Sep 2012 06:40

Strange there has been no news of the bird for more than three months now

hope things are fine and going well

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 24 Sep 2012 07:25

suryag wrote:Strange there has been no news of the bird for more than three months now hope things are fine and going well

LCA Tejas Mk-II To Have Indigenous AESA Radar

...but at the recently concluded International Conference on Energising Aerospace Industry, got to know that the AESA will be on the Mk-II, indigenously built, making the Mk-II a full-fledged multirole fighter, besides other stuff like new avionics and airframe.

-Ankit

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Sep 2012 07:35

krishnan wrote:Do you known what happened to the software that was developed with khan ????

I don't think any software was developed "with" Khan. It was being tested in Khan and was making F-16 behave better than before when the plug was pulled.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2012 11:10

Based on what happened after pok-2, we should technically freeze any strategically significant offensive capabilities with the khans... but, we could encourage onsite support, participation where the land is desh, and not outside.. we can get a copy of f-16 for test under agreement, that we could help the f16s get better. now, that is a double edged blades on our claws.. kudos., it could be a reverse brain drain, and a project that we can ask for a good price. now, the khan should only be show such piece meal projects that benefits 2 steps for us, and 1 step for the khans.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 24 Sep 2012 13:26

We should start exporting LCA Mk I once the IAF order of 40 aircrafts are met. The LCA Mk II is a while away & the 200 orders for it are not going to be met anytine soon. The Embraer based AEW&C will also be available to us. There is a huge market out there for light fighters (read cheap) that heavy ones are not able to compete in. We can seriously make a dent in it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2012 17:32

must need antrix like co.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 28 Sep 2012 04:27

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

Same news , a few titbits 70% indegenous content, how accurate?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Sep 2012 04:45

I am not happy in this waste of time on GTRE-Snecma deal. They should begin talking and let the public know about the specifications, so that any CAG aspects can be analyzed asap.