Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

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member_20317
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_20317 »

Amit ji,

Challiye aap maan to gaye. That itself is a great thing to have happened.

To continue, what I posted had very little to do with accounting. It had everything to do with the written word. More like law.

There are off course accounting aspect involved too, which reveals the path to handling such decision making points.

With your workings you wanted to show that 50 Billion USD worth of imports cannot be done by Walmart from China into India. This implies two further points of decision:
1) BW has to achieve 72 Billion USD as you said to which I agree in principle (see no problem with #30 :) ) but I do doubt if a reasonable business structuring cannot be done to circumvent it; and
2) Walmart has to decide between Imports and Domestic Purchases and decision has to come out in favour of Imports. This remains the only item for contest from Theo ji’s side and now mine.

Problem 1 (nothing to do with accounting) –
The market size considerations for India are different then for the rest of the Walmart markets. I would be surprised if they cannot capture 10% on their own steam. Agreed in a few years and not immediately but this can easily be before we are ready for it. Kindly observe the pace, depth of ingress and tick sizes being quoted for a 2 year period by BW CEO, attached below.

Problem 2 (Proper accounting problem) -
For such a decision you will have to focus on only the differential costs/savings. Considering all the items the way you are doing will put you into a new challenge that of reconciling the differentials (of which there will be several) with the wholes. Wholes like Grand Totals and reportable categories. I am absolutely certain I am incapable of doing that reconciliation on Walmart and I doubt if anybody else can either (I doubt if even the Walmart CFO has to capability to do that). Now I really honestly fail to understand which item of cost will be affected between the two of these alternatives in any substantial manner. I request other members to help if I am missing something. I would be grateful for the education. The only item I could see moving was the trucking chaap line items. Specifically between the Chinese factory and the nearest WB stocking point. Now since Bombay, Calcutta, Chennai have their own ports and Banglore, Hydrabad are not very far off from these ports I basically ignored the trucking costs. Only the trucking to NCR would be big. Plus off course the ocean transport. Which I, may be wrong but can be more than made up by the Exchange rate game the Chinese play. Thus we see why at present the landed costs of Chinese goods are actually lesser then those of Indian manufacturers.

All this is assuming and which I think is justifiable that an entirely new supply chain will be established now that BW and group will get into both Wholesale and Retail.

Please notice the opex has nothing to do with this approach. Hence even if Theo ji said – “We are not in the position to suffer another $50 Billion deficit to Panda” he was not really off by a very big margin in terms of analysis.

However there is one place you could have confronted Theo ji. When he said “It would mean an outflow of $500 Billion over the next 10 years”, he could have been challenged on the start date of this 10 year period. But I guess Theo ji was wise he tied up that duration with a few relative references by alluding to “drain our Forex reserves” and “our $500 Billion retail trade”. So he can say that this Ten year period starts say in 2015.

In an off case I do admit Bharti Walmart will not be able to do what I fear they can. But then my view is the reason will not be the incapability of BW. Here I am ready to doubt (but without depending on it) the capability of the Management.

Bharti Walmart Pvt Ltd, a joint venture between Bharti Enterprises and Walmart Stores Inc, today opened a wholesale cash-and-carry store at Raipur, in Chhattisgarh, taking the total number of outlets it operates in India to seven.

"We have invested $7 million in Chhattisgarh and created over 200 jobs, of which about 40 are from the tribal community... We have already received a very good response to this store with over 25,000 registered members," Bharti Walmart Managing Director and CEO Raj Jain said in a statement.

The new 'Best Price Modern Wholesale' in Raipur is spread over 53,000 square feet and stocks over 5,500 items, including foods, fruits and vegetables, groceries, personal and home care items, hotel and restaurant supplies, apparel and other general merchandise items.

"The JV is expected to open 12 new wholesale cash-and- carry facilities and employ approximately 4,000 people by December, 2011," the statement said.

The company launched its first store in Amritsar in May, 2009. The other stores are located in Zirakpur, Jalandhar, Kota, Bhopal and Ludhiana


Also amit ji, while you believe it is so, I am definitely not and I am rather sure neither is Theo ji fixated onto to Walmart. Walmart is only a murti as I explained earlier. An aide in meditation on the supreme god, in our case manifested in a ‘to do or not to do’ situation.



Aside –
Aditya_V ji, all the black economy and the white economy depends on the skill set of these three professions for showing and hiding things. Al Capone went down because of these guys.

In Hindi we have a saying ‘Dekhan mein chota lage ghav kare gambhir’. :) Learnt that from an accountant during my days in hardcore accounting. Till these professions do not come into the fight to save the country from the loot-khasot everything remains only an opinion.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

My impression reading over the last two pages is that there's a lot of nitpicking going on. Lots of arguments over the specific number of $50 billion that Walmart will allegedly start importing as soon as they're let in.

A couple of points:

1. Theo_Fidel himself claims that retail in India will be $2T+ by 2020. $50B is a small fraction of that, so why is it such a huge deal?
2. Secondly, and perhaps more to the point -- as the saying goes, if something can't continue, it will stop. If $50 billion of imports is going to cripple the Indian economy and destroy forex reserves, it will simply not happen. Unlike the US, India does not have a free printing press and will not have the means to pay for those imports so they will stop, and probably far before any such damage occurs (because it will be easy enough to stop a mile in advance).

-----------------

ravi_g, a couple of pages back you provided a somewhat extended reply to my comment about PE financing for Indian retailers. Sorry for the late reply since I've been away from this thread for a couple of days. However, my basic question, I believe, remained unanswered.

The question was: if there are Indian retailers who are just waiting for FDI to come in so they can sell out to foreign companies -- what are the alternatives if there is no FDI? Should they just go out of business, or should we spend our tax money to bail them out, or something else? Why are these other alternatives better than selling out to foreign retailers?

A concise reply would be wonderful.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

RamaY wrote:Aaaha.. JNUrhetoric haa?

Go and search for private job additions in 2011. These are incremental permanent job additions in that year.

[/b]
er sorry, I stand corrected - this is your most ignorant statement yet (I'm sure we shall see some more) :) Again - can you provide any evidence that this entire 'incremental' job creation was due to the Rs 460,000 crore subsidies being provided by GOI? If - yes, what implications does it have for the 'capitalist' system which apparently needs sops to survive and create jobs in India?

I guess 'Yindootvavadi economists' (of the BRF variety) have to learn to provide causal evidence :)
Last edited by arnab on 27 Sep 2012 05:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^Arnab,

Some issues with the 'revenue foregone' budgetary line item.
If the foregone part is due to exemptions, then, sure, such exemptions and assorted discretionary (and corruption-friendly) powers should simply go. A GST would help just like VAT did.

OTOH, if 'rev foregone' is calculated based on what would have come in if say the tax rate was higher, then there's major iossues with that kinda thinking. Q1 is from what base? There was a time when income tax was above 75%. So revenue foregone from that base (i.e. 75% - the 30% odd currently) will be high indeed. This kind of accounting is dodgy at best and might very well be happening in GoI (at least I wouldn't be surprised if our babooze are using such sophistry to impress lawd knows who).

So yes, somehow this whole edifice that the well-off are a pampered lot for whom GoI subsidizes services and facilities and products by the ton seems somehow contrived and untenable. Diesel and some power subsidy (esp the rate differential between residential and industrial power) I can understand, but beyond that I don;t see the basis for these fancy 460k crore claims that look great on paper when making an argument but don't mean much otherwise.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^Arnab,

OTOH, if 'rev foregone' is calculated based on what would have come in if say the tax rate was higher, then there's major iossues with that kinda thinking. Q1 is from what base? There was a time when income tax was above 75%. So revenue foregone from that base (i.e. 75% - the 30% odd currently) will be high indeed. This kind of accounting is dodgy at best and might very well be happening in GoI (at least I wouldn't be surprised if our babooze are using such sophistry to impress lawd knows who).
That is not how the way 'revenue forgone' is calculated. It looks at the impact of all the subsidies and concessions provided at current policy settings (for personal and corporates - such as the various tax deduction schemes and export / import subsidies) and calculates the aggregate impact.
Like I said - the government's role is not to provide subsidies (be it for production or consumption), because there is scant evidence that these subsidies in anyway increase productivity. What the government should do is improve its regulatory settings. If today GOI takes 200 days to clear all the permits / conditions to set up an industry - perhaps it can reduce it to say 40 days. It can create better infrastructure and education and health care. These are the stuff that a government is meant to do.
At the end of the day when a person decides to set up an industry, the fact that he would receive govt. subsidies should not have a great bearing on his decision. If it does - then it is purely a parasitic entity.

It is like GOI handing over Rs 100 crore to an already rich boy and saying - "ja beta bijness kar" (go son do a business). That is not how a system is meant to work.
So yes, somehow this whole edifice that the well-off are a pampered lot for whom GoI subsidizes services and facilities and products by the ton seems somehow contrived and untenable. Diesel and some power subsidy (esp the rate differential between residential and industrial power) I can understand, but beyond that I don;t see the basis for these fancy 460k crore claims that look great on paper when making an argument but don't mean much otherwise.
Sir the well-off in India are pampered (vis a vis the poor in India) because the subsidy regime in India is very broadbased and not targeted. To think of an analogous example - think of the job reservation in government services. Poorly targeted meaning a lot of 'undeprived' individuals keep getting the benefits.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by amit »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Amit,

I'm not sure why you have such trouble believing the $50 Billion number. In data challenged India, just the traceable retail trade in 2009 itself was ~ $500 Billion. It is very likely it will be $2 Trillion item by 2020 when GDP is ~ $6-$7 Trillion. Note that I kept it constant for 10 years. If anything $50 Billion might be a huge underestimate by 2020.
Actually Theo once you introduce the other important numbers $6-7 trillion and the date 2020, you POV makes sense. But then you did not read what I wrote.
Note, I’m not saying that at some point of time in the future Bharti-Walmart cannot have a turnover in the region of $95 billion. But that will occur at a point of time when $50 billion of more imports from China would matter diddly squat because our GDP numbers would be higher by several quantums than what it is today.
So you see I wrote exactly what you are now saying.

You see, my problem was with your initial comment that India cannot afford to have its import bill from China increased by another $50 billion. Circa 2012-2013 with a $2 trillion (or thereabouts GDP) I would agree. But with a $7trillion GDP, $50billion would be a substantially less important number. The point is simple, by the time Walmart would be able to get to the $50 billion import target things would have changed dramatically. We are not living in static world and all statistical numbers are moving at different trajectories. And so the equation is constantly changing.

And also, suppose at the end of the day Walmart does not enter India. Fast forward to 2020 and the $6-7 trillion GDP. Do you think that $50 billion of extra import from China wouldn’t happen if there’s a demand for it? Heck even without Walmart in India we have huge deficit with China because businessmen go to China and import stuff on the cheap.

Bottom line your $50 billion comment comes across as unnecessary fear mongering.

One final point. I’ve said it before, I don’t even for a moment think that allowing 51 per cent FDI in retail is a silver bullet that will solve all our retail woes. It has to be accompanied by a host of other measures, including introduction of GST for smooth flow of goods all across India. There also has to be a robust set of clear and transparent guidelines governing the sector.

We have to start somewhere to transform our indigent farmer based supply chain model into a cold storage based one. That would give farmers better income and it would also be the most effective way in fighting food inflation the major contributor to retail inflation in India. 51 per cent FDI in organised multibrand retail, IMO is a step in that direction.

In order to survive in India, these chains will be forced to build up their supply chains and due to the involvement of foreign brands like Walmart, Tesco etc, these supply chains would integrated to their global supply chains. And you know what? There's every possibility that stuff from India will eventually find their way to the shelves of shops run by these global brands in other parts of the world. There's no reason that can't and won't happen despite the East India Company redux syndrome shown by some worthies here. Given the presence of such a large and wealthy diaspora that's already happening in fits and starts, IMO this would kick-start the process into a higher gear.

As regards your comment on ICRIER, let’s just agree to disagree. You see I’ve also read the report and unlike you I think it’s extensive and quite exhaustive with a lot of empirical evidence. And whether you like it or not, it still remains till date the most comprehensive report on organized retail in India. Other research reports and news articles on the Indian retail scene – both local as well as foreign – use that report as source material. It is the most cited report on Indian retail.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by amit »

Abhijeet wrote:My impression reading over the last two pages is that there's a lot of nitpicking going on. Lots of arguments over the specific number of $50 billion that Walmart will allegedly start importing as soon as they're let in.

A couple of points:

1. Theo_Fidel himself claims that retail in India will be $2T+ by 2020. $50B is a small fraction of that, so why is it such a huge deal?
2. Secondly, and perhaps more to the point -- as the saying goes, if something can't continue, it will stop. If $50 billion of imports is going to cripple the Indian economy and destroy forex reserves, it will simply not happen. Unlike the US, India does not have a free printing press and will not have the means to pay for those imports so they will stop, and probably far before any such damage occurs (because it will be easy enough to stop a mile in advance).
+100

Just saw your post, good one Abhijeet.
A concise reply would be wonderful.
:wink:

If wishes were horses...
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

HS ji,

This is the document in question - revenue foregone in 2012.

http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2012-13/sta ... nnex12.pdf

This document explains the methodology and data used in calculating this revenue foregone. this exercise is started in 2006 ( :idea: you can guess by who, and can see the methodology to get some idea)

What our dear Arnab pulled from his bottoms was somehow this revenue loss was due to tax-evasion or government subsidies.

What I tried to explain him was it is the govt policies and tax laws that are resulting this revenue foregone. If the JNUconimists in the govt wanted to change the tax laws they could have done it in the past 6 years.

But they didn't do it. Why is the billion rupee question.

Our Arnab sar again calls this is the govt subsidy, which is nothing but pure 24ct BS. By that measure any tax less than 100% is a subsidy.

This JNU nonsense is muddying govt policy since independence. Now with MMS we got the other side of the coin which is west-slavenomics. One wants no encouragement for local industry. The other wants to open the door wide so the foreign industries without preparing the locals markets from exploitation.

The nation is stuck with these two morons. Our educated dhimmis think an MBA from Harvard or a Job at IMF is the only criteria to make policy.

For forum members understanding of Arnab's JNUnomics, following are a few examples of revenu foregone reasons
Deduction of export profits of STPI units (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of EHTP units (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of units located in SEZs (section 10A and 10AA)
Deduction of export profits of units located in EPZs (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of units located in FTZs (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of Export Oriented Units [EOUs] (section 10B)
Accelerated Depreciation (section 32)
Deduction/weighted deduction for expenditure on scientific research (section 35 (1), (2AA) &(2AB))
Deduction for expenditure on eligible projects or schemes for the social and economic uplift of the public (section 35AC)
Deduction on account of donations to charitable trusts and institutions (section 80G)
Deduction on account of donations for scientific research or rural development (section 80GGA)
Deduction on account of contributions to political parties (section 80GGB)
Deduction of profits of certain industrial undertakings or a ship or a hotel business (section 80-I)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in development of infrastructure facilities (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in development of SEZs and Industrial Parks (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in providing telecommunication services (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in generation, transmission and distribution of power (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertaking engaged in revival of power plant (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in development of SEZs in pursuance to SEZ Act, 2005 (section 80-IAB)
Deduction of profits of industrial undertakings operating in the small-scale sector (section 80-IB)
Deduction of profits of industrial undertakings located in Jammu & Kashmir (section 80-IB)
Deduction of profits of industrial undertakings located in industrially backward States other than Jammu & Kashmir (section 80-IB)
Now I would like to learn how the jobs created by these industries cannot be considered as the economic value of this subsidies, if we want to call them so.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

RamaY wrote:HS ji,

This is the document in question - revenue foregone in 2012.

http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2012-13/sta ... nnex12.pdf

This document explains the methodology and data used in calculating this revenue foregone. this exercise is started in 2006 ( :idea: you can guess by who, and can see the methodology to get some idea)

What our dear Arnab pulled from his bottoms was somehow this revenue loss was due to tax-evasion or government subsidies.

What I tried to explain him was it is the govt policies and tax laws that are resulting this revenue foregone. If the JNUconimists in the govt wanted to change the tax laws they could have done it in the past 6 years.

But they didn't do it. Why is the billion rupee question.

Our Arnab sar again calls this is the govt subsidy, which is nothing but pure 24ct BS. By that measure any tax less than 100% is a subsidy.

This JNU nonsense is muddying govt policy since independence. Now with MMS we got the other side of the coin which is west-slavenomics. One wants no encouragement for local industry. The other wants to open the door wide so the foreign industries without preparing the locals markets from exploitation.

The nation is stuck with these two morons. Our educated dhimmis think an MBA from Harvard or a Job at IMF is the only criteria to make policy.

For forum members understanding of Arnab's JNUnomics, following are a few examples of revenu foregone reasons
Deduction of export profits of STPI units (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of EHTP units (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of units located in SEZs (section 10A and 10AA)
Deduction of export profits of units located in EPZs (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of units located in FTZs (section 10A)
Deduction of export profits of Export Oriented Units [EOUs] (section 10B)
Accelerated Depreciation (section 32)
Deduction/weighted deduction for expenditure on scientific research (section 35 (1), (2AA) &(2AB))
Deduction for expenditure on eligible projects or schemes for the social and economic uplift of the public (section 35AC)
Deduction on account of donations to charitable trusts and institutions (section 80G)
Deduction on account of donations for scientific research or rural development (section 80GGA)
Deduction on account of contributions to political parties (section 80GGB)
Deduction of profits of certain industrial undertakings or a ship or a hotel business (section 80-I)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in development of infrastructure facilities (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in development of SEZs and Industrial Parks (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in providing telecommunication services (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in generation, transmission and distribution of power (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertaking engaged in revival of power plant (section 80-IA)
Deduction of profits of undertakings engaged in development of SEZs in pursuance to SEZ Act, 2005 (section 80-IAB)
Deduction of profits of industrial undertakings operating in the small-scale sector (section 80-IB)
Deduction of profits of industrial undertakings located in Jammu & Kashmir (section 80-IB)
Deduction of profits of industrial undertakings located in industrially backward States other than Jammu & Kashmir (section 80-IB)
Now I would like to learn how the jobs created by these industries cannot be considered as the economic value of this subsidies, if we want to call them so.

These 'deductions' are subsidies - because they are allowed to be deducted from the existing 22 % (or thereof) company taxes that the companies should otherwise be paying (and not from an assumed level of 100% taxes). Like I said - please provide proof - that these deductions alone are responsible for creating the 10 mn odd jobs.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

:rotfl:

Note to self: This is my most ignorant post.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

RamaY wrote::rotfl:

Note to self: This is my most ignorant post.
Yes - you are learning :) I will help yindootvavadi economists a bit further. To create 'economic value' - you need to prove that $100 given in subsidies is creating >$100 in output (Note only through the impact of subsidies and not other drivers like increases in population, participation and productivity).
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by putnanja »

arnab wrote: These 'deductions' are subsidies - because they are allowed to be deducted from the existing 22 % (or thereof) company taxes that the companies should otherwise be paying (and not from an assumed level of 100% taxes). Like I said - please provide proof - that these deductions alone are responsible for creating the 10 mn odd jobs.
The issue is of attracting private investment in areas where the govt is not able to invest much. And for that to happen, it has to provide some tax concessions so that private industry will invest hard capital. The government by itself doesn't have the funds to invest in all these activities.

And many countries provide export subsidies. They encourage exports, and hence support local industries and jobs. They make our products more competitive in the world market.

BTW, the existing company taxes are around 35%.
Last edited by putnanja on 27 Sep 2012 09:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vera_k »

All taxes not approved by voters are extortion, equivalent to blackmail. Income taxes are doubly evil, since unlike sales or property taxes they cannot be avoided by reducing consumption.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

putnanja wrote:[quote="arnab
/quote]

The issue is of attracting private investment in areas where the govt is not able to invest much. And for that to happen, it has to provide some tax concessions so that private industry will invest hard capital. The government by itself doesn't have the funds to invest in all these activities.

And many countries provide export subsidies. They encourage exports, and hence support local industries and jobs. They make our products more competitive in the world market.

BTW, the existing company taxes are around 35%.
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

True and many countries in the world also provide direct cash transfer in the form of income support / unemployment benefits to their poor. One then needs to be even handed. You can't claim subsidies on consumption (NREGA) is bad but subsidies to production / investment (tax benefits) are good.

I thought the effective rate of company taxes was around 22 % but I could be wrong - it has been a while since I looked at Indian company tax rates.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by putnanja »

arnab wrote:True and many countries in the world also provide direct cash transfer in the form of income support / unemployment benefits to their poor. One then needs to be even handed. You can't claim subsidies on consumption (NREGA) is bad but subsidies to production / investment (tax benefits) are good.

I thought the effective rate of company taxes was around 22 % but I could be wrong - it has been a while since I looked at Indian company tax rates.
Tax Rates in India

With education cess etc, the effective tax is 33.9% for companies. The link above has the details.

Unemployment benefit in many countries depend on the contribution by individuals too, and the amount and duration depends on how long they had worked before becoming unemployed. That kind of safety net is unfortunately not available in India for anyone.

For the poor, countries offer direct cash transfer, subsidized food, food coupons etc. The subsidized PDS scheme is one such example. Many states have additional subsidies for people below poverty line (BPL). No one disputes that the poor need some kind of helping hand.

Let the government do direct cash transfer and call it that, instead of having them dig holes and fill them up needlessly. There is no skills development, no assets creation etc with this kind of program. And it has the effect of creating artificial labour shortage, which has much bigger impact across the country. The agricultural ministry was at one time thinking of asking NREGA scheme to be suspended during harvest season! Many farmers are moving towards mechanization instead of relying on unreliable labour. This will further cause unemployment in the remaining nine months of the year. And with no skills being taught to these people in the NREGA scheme, it just doesn't make sense.

Without nationwide implementation of aadhar program, it will be difficult to identify true beneficiaries. And the government indulging in turf wars on that too, its implementation has gone slow. And it has just led to massive corruption in the NREGA scheme. The government has created a program knowing fully well it will be misused.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

putnanja wrote: Unemployment benefit in many countries depend on the contribution by individuals too, and the amount and duration depends on how long they had worked before becoming unemployed. That kind of safety net is unfortunately not available in India for anyone.

For the poor, countries offer direct cash transfer, subsidized food, food coupons etc. The subsidized PDS scheme is one such example. Many states have additional subsidies for people below poverty line (BPL). No one disputes that the poor need some kind of helping hand.

Let the government do direct cash transfer and call it that, instead of having them dig holes and fill them up needlessly. There is no skills development, no assets creation etc with this kind of program. And it has the effect of creating artificial labour shortage, which has much bigger impact across the country. The agricultural ministry was at one time thinking of asking NREGA scheme to be suspended during harvest season! Many farmers are moving towards mechanization instead of relying on unreliable labour. This will further cause unemployment in the remaining nine months of the year. And with no skills being taught to these people in the NREGA scheme, it just doesn't make sense.

Without nationwide implementation of aadhar program, it will be difficult to identify true beneficiaries. And the government indulging in turf wars on that too, its implementation has gone slow. And it has just led to massive corruption in the NREGA scheme. The government has created a program knowing fully well it will be misused.
Sir even the subsidised PDS scheme is misused. Any subsidy scheme is misused - be it in the production side or the consumption side. There are so many stories of the export subsidy schemes being misused and it having no impact on growth rates. A subsidy is a subsidy - if GOI feels it needs the fig leaf of 'work' for a subsidy; so be it - it does not make the scheme any more worse than other subsidies (In australia for instance the dole requires the recipient to 'look' for job - which means effectively turn-up to a centre once a month and spend a couple of hours in front of the computer and tick the box!).
Considering many countries provide tax concessions to attract foreign investment, when companies take a decision to invest in a particular country - such concessions will have a very low consideration on their decision making. Else all companies should be investing in TSP instead of India.
The government's role is to provide institutional capability (through infrastructure, education investment and health care and regulatory reforms) to attract investment and entreprenuers and not bribes through tax subsidies. One may claim that tax concessions will attract investment but I doubt any company which solely relies on tax subsidies for its viability will go any far or will be adding any value. It will, by definition, be a scam.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nachiket »

arnab wrote:You can't claim subsidies on consumption (NREGA) is bad but subsidies to production / investment (tax benefits) are good.
Why not? Incentives for increasing investment and production address the supply side issues that drive up inflation. Subsidies on consumption simply inject more money into the system and drive up inflation and reduce the value of the currency.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by arnab »

nachiket wrote:Why not? Incentives for increasing investment and production address the supply side issues that drive up inflation. Subsidies on consumption simply inject more money into the system and drive up inflation and reduce the value of the currency.
Please prove that. Tax incentives on property (investment) has merely created asset bubbles - directly causing inflation. supply constraints are still there. Subsidies on consumption allow you to buy the goods that is being produced (unless you are claiming that supply remains fixed) - thereby increasing GDP and employment.

The bottlenecks on production and consumption are elsewhere. Subsidies don't solve it - they add to problems through their distortionary impact
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by amit »

putnanja wrote:The issue is of attracting private investment in areas where the govt is not able to invest much. And for that to happen, it has to provide some tax concessions so that private industry will invest hard capital. The government by itself doesn't have the funds to invest in all these activities.
I don't want to get into this very interesting discussion due to a paucity of time. However, I have a comment for the bolded part of your post.

The best way to get investment going, especially in areas which need them the most is to get the GST regime up and running as Kelkar has pointed out in his study. I remember we had an extensive debate on this point many moons ago.

Here's an interesting extract from a different source:
Third, a GST shifts the tax burden from investment, production and exports to domestic consumption. While there is not explicit tax on exports, taxes on investments and current business inputs, and other forms of cascading, do feed into the cost of exports. “The current regime can add 4%–5% to the cost of investment,” says Satya Poddar, a leader for Tax & Regulatory Services at Ernst & Young in India, “so GST is likely to have a substantial, positive effect on investment.”
From here

Unfortunately, like FDI in multi-brand retail GST has also become a political hot potato, enough to get the Left and Right to join hands and share the dais. One can see how true the adage "politics makes for strange bedfellows" is.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^ RamaY garu, I do see your point.

And let's not forget, the indirect taxes hit everybody hard. Am told the indirect taxes levied by states on petrol and diesel are of the order of 100%. To then talk of subsidizing aam aadmi (who is not on govt dole of any sort) is far fetched.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Hiten »

in this week's GPS podcast Fareed Zakaria cited a recent LSE report which concluded that outsourcing was benefiting the U.S & European economies

thought it was relevant to this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skSZLbw84mU
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

amit wrote:Just saw your post, good one Abhijeet.
Thanks amit. Likewise for your posts, which are based on more rigorous data than mine.

Although I have to say, the fact that so many reams of data are needed at all is ridiculous. India must be the only major economy where people still ask for proof when they see statements like "increasing efficiency is good", "modern supply chains are good", "increasing competition is good" etc. Most of the rest of the world has moved on beyond these basics IMO.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/295505/upa ... erjee.html

An interview with MB on FDI retail and political logistics behind it.

FDI in retail is a political decision covered in a economic policy gift wrap.

Like the Turdesai in the interview our own turds divert the discussion.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by ramana »

Economist Interactive Map of Indian states and their economy.

Very interesting GDPs for the states:

India Figures Interactive Guide
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

Hmm.. They are showing their attitude to GoI by sticking to their map. Check JK
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Katare »

No one thinks that by 2020 walmart would be procuring $50B of goods in India for export to rest of the world?

Junk from china is all over the india already and it'll keep coming with or without walmart. With walmart it would come from official chennals and create Tax revenue for Govt.

Walmart is not very successful outside western world, infect in China they are closing stores and Sams clubs have become ultra luxury shops for ultra rich looking to purchase $2000 bottle of wine rather than a jumbo toilet paper pack .

I think we do need to create a better supply chain and storage facilities to tame ever increasing and extremely volatile food inflation.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

WalMart will increase efficiency is a bit of a joke because it needs to do it only for the 30% that it procures from India. It can continue to import its 70% from existing chains outside. Even the little improvements that it does will be wholely WalMart centric which will only increase their margins rather than the nation. The only benefit I see is a slight lowering of prices. Is a 9-10% decrease in price worth dumping the foreign goods in India?

The current chinese imports is manageable since the players are small. Any major discrepancies can be solved by the govt. With the introduction of large players, the quality of products can drop drastically and the govt will not intervene since they have the power to keep the wheels greased. Small time traders have to fear the govt if they sell contaminated produce illegally. The big ones can do it easily with a PR campaign without affecting their bottomline. A small company would have been closed down but Pepsi & Coca Cola can get away with selling anything in the country thanks to its deep pockets & excellent PR campaign.

The real thing that everyone avoids is the effect of foreign foods on our health. Multiple studies have extensively shown that McDonalds, coke is harmful for our system. The issue is sidelined by saying that people can choose to buy what they want. But then why ban public smioking & drugs. Even ganja should be legal and people should be allowed to waste their bodies. Prescription drugs can be made OTC as well. The presence of contaminants is well known but if we get food from China, only god will know what is mixed in it since the packing will be done in China itself.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Katare »

What is wrong with foreign goods? Don't you want to sell your goods to foreigners?
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

Katare wrote:What is wrong with foreign goods? Don't you want to sell your goods to foreigners?
I have already stated
nakul wrote:The real thing that everyone avoids is the effect of foreign foods on our health. Multiple studies have extensively shown that McDonalds, coke is harmful for our system. The issue is sidelined by saying that people can choose to buy what they want. But then why ban public smioking & drugs. Even ganja should be legal and people should be allowed to waste their bodies. Prescription drugs can be made OTC as well. The presence of contaminants is well known but if we get food from China, only god will know what is mixed in it since the packing will be done in China itself.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by RamaY »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^ RamaY garu, I do see your point.

And let's not forget, the indirect taxes hit everybody hard. Am told the indirect taxes levied by states on petrol and diesel are of the order of 100%. To then talk of subsidizing aam aadmi (who is not on govt dole of any sort) is far fetched.
Thanks HSji.

It is funny that people do not understand the difference between tax-deductions/exemptions and subsidies. This is nothing but moorkhatva ("it is same because I cannot comprehend it any other way", type mindset) . Perhaps they should read this and this.

These industry-friendly policies are given only to the established industries. For example an SEZ is planned and approved by the govt and then various industries buy this infrastructure and govt specified prices or thru bidding.

No one is given these tax-deductions/exemptions without setting up an industry. That automatically means that all the private industry jobs that are created due to these policies become part of the economic-benefits of that policy. The articles i referred earlier mention Assocham number of 10-15 million jobs created in 2011. Assuming all these numbers are accurate (which are statistical projections and not actual numbers) the 465,000 revenue loss created ~5-6 million jobs. And the rest are direct contribution of private industry.

That is why it is a good policy to encourage such policies. No wonder even UPA2 govt did not change these policies.

The interesting point is why this revenue lost report came into existence in 2006. I point my finger at the leftist NAC to be used as a blackmail mechanism to get thru its NREGA-like crap.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Abhijeet »

So now foreign retailers means "foreign food" which in turn means only Coke and McDonalds. News flash: Coke and McDonalds are already available in India. Oh the horror. :roll:
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Katare »

nakul wrote:
Katare wrote:What is wrong with foreign goods? Don't you want to sell your goods to foreigners?
I have already stated
nakul wrote:The real thing that everyone avoids is the effect of foreign foods on our health. Multiple studies have extensively shown that McDonalds, coke is harmful for our system. The issue is sidelined by saying that people can choose to buy what they want. But then why ban public smioking & drugs. Even ganja should be legal and people should be allowed to waste their bodies. Prescription drugs can be made OTC as well. The presence of contaminants is well known but if we get food from China, only god will know what is mixed in it since the packing will be done in China itself.
What about foreign wine and whiskey? Or you just want no trade in foods or just ban western recipes? How far you have to go before you call it a foreign food? Is shipping apples from Indian Kashmir to Kerala is healthy and if they come from Pak side of kasmir they are unhealthy? This argument does not hold logic to my standards.

India survived for decades on foreign food, often donated, after Independence. Actually until 1960s conventional wisdom was that India will never be able to feed itself. Nation lived in a long "ship to mouth" era. In midevel era when men couldn't trade food freely over long distances 10s of millions of people would die in famine in one corner while surplus food will go waste just few hundreds of mile away. .

My friend these things (Mcdonalds, coke and whiskey) are all equally bad or good for everyone indian or american. Samosa, Pakoda, Jalebi and rosgulla or twice a day rice is not very healthy either.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Katare wrote:....twice a day rice is not very healthy either.
I take issue with that. Traditional high fiber rice, such a red rice is very good for you. You can eat as many times as you want. Problem was low yields which gave us starvation type existence. Modern IRRI polished rice has high productivity but is unfortunately not as healthy.

But yes Walmart does not affect this one way or another.
---------------------------------------

I hope people realize India suffers a $180 Billion trade deficit right now. This is financed through the skin of our teeth by foreign remittances and Software exports, both invisible's. Without righting our trade balance it will be impossible to correct things like our inflation rate, which constantly tries to melt the rupee value. Right now were are melting our folks savings to finance this. I really do hope folks are not counting on remittances to bail India out any more.

BTW Walmart was importing whole from Panda long before it opened its stores there. The truth is WAlmart does not focus on China for anything except as a source of cheap junk sell elsewhere.
---------------------------------------------------

This business of, '...the market will correct, blah blah blah...' is idiocy in the extreme. The market will also chop your head off without any qualms. Don't leave the fate of 1.2 Billion folks at the whims of the plutocratic market.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by ramana »

Theo, You know that in the US presidential elections the openingof FDI in retail is pro quid quo for the outsourcing.
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

Abhijeet wrote:So now foreign retailers means "foreign food" which in turn means only Coke and McDonalds. News flash: Coke and McDonalds are already available in India. Oh the horror. :roll:
Its bad enough. But like MMS we want to make it worse with more pappi jhappi. Yatha raja tatha praja
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by nakul »

Katare wrote: What about foreign wine and whiskey? Or you just want no trade in foods or just ban western recipes? How far you have to go before you call it a foreign food? Is shipping apples from Indian Kashmir to Kerala is healthy and if they come from Pak side of kasmir they are unhealthy? This argument does not hold logic to my standards.

India survived for decades on foreign food, often donated, after Independence. Actually until 1960s conventional wisdom was that India will never be able to feed itself. Nation lived in a long "ship to mouth" era. In midevel era when men couldn't trade food freely over long distances 10s of millions of people would die in famine in one corner while surplus food will go waste just few hundreds of mile away. .

My friend these things (Mcdonalds, coke and whiskey) are all equally bad or good for everyone indian or american. Samosa, Pakoda, Jalebi and rosgulla or twice a day rice is not very healthy either.
I have heard of the quality of foreign food in the 60s. It was despicable. We only did it because of the food shortage in the country. We are not facing any shortage now. Why the kolaveri? Just save a few rupees???

As for the comparison between whiskey == rosgulla or jalebi :roll: The situation trying to portray is that India is dying of hunger. We are already a food surplus nation. The only reason to import is financial. Why do we want to place our health in the hands of foreigners? Generations of McDonalds/coke consuming has led to poor health in the country of their origin. We are racing towards that. There are some reasons one should not catch up with America on food. One of them is because it will be going backwards. The impact of fast food on our health is so bad that people in the mid 30s have diabetes & cholestrol disorders. ANd people ask why the problem with fast food? :shock:
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by ashish raval »

^^ don't know if it belongs here, but still posting it. Mods please move if it does not belong here.

Sick of government telling society to live on rs. 32. Pathetic.

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/r ... 17832.html
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by alexis »

arnab wrote:
RamaY wrote:ARnab,

Your JNU-nomics are so predictable :rotfl:

Yes, I (luckily and consciously) did not study the secular-socialist economics that they teach in JNU or the colonial-economics they teach in West. I learned the yindutvavadi economics and that is why I am so ignorant in your eyes. Don't think much about it, lest you will have a secular-diarrhea.

Just because I happen to have lot of money and it earns interest, it doesn't automatically become your fathers money to be collected as taxes. There are tax laws and if the tax laws allow people to pay lesser taxes then you should blame your JNU economist fathers for allowing such loop holes.

First of all, I don't know whose ass you pulled the 460,000 crore number you pulled from but I will let the stink stay on your fingers and will take that number for argument sake.

Secondly the government policy gives some sops for industry so the private individuals invest and create permanent jobs. It is calculated that (look at my alternative budget thread for source) 15000 permanent jobs are created per every 1000 crore investment.

Thirdly I took $1.7T GDP and calculated the ($180b) Rs 950,000 crore revenues at Rs 55/$. I don't know where you got your numbers.
Saar I'm sure you must have received some sort of education :) but apparently they omitted to mention that the precursor to education is to read and comprehend. That 460,000 crore (or rather 458,705 crore) figure is provided in GOI's budget on revenue foregone. Similarly I'm not sure why all this resorting to handwaving and assumptions about how much tax revenues have been collected when all one needs to do is look at India's budget papers - presumably yinddootvavadi economics taught you how to research and locate stuff :)

As for the rest of your rant - creation of jobs by the private sector should not require subsidies. Just good regulation and infrastructure should suffice. However, when a lot of GOI funds goes into vested interests (corporate and private), it is not surprising that there is no money left over for these critical issues.

I also find your sense of entitlement rather amusing, about "if I happen to have a lot of money, I should keep it" I am sure a lot of erstwhile maharajas and sultans felt the same way :)
Dear Arnab,

This revenue foregone is a clear bunkum figure for analysis; it is like CAG's figure of loss. it is absolutely hypothetical in the sense that it assumes the tax base would remain the same if it is levied. It would not be the same - As RamaY pointed out, this exemptions attract investments in the most needed place, create jobs and encourage Indian business to be competitive abroad.

You also speak as if it is Govt's right to tax people and business whatever it wants! if Govt taxes people too much, people would stop being productive and we got pre-1991 state
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by member_23858 »

I have a noob question for enlightened folks... Whats the point of taxing a common street vendor 12% Service tax and sales tax and then giving full exemption to Heavy industries such as textile industries.....I mean charge the common Beauty parlor owner a whopping 12% for which government provided no subsidies and exempt textile industries for which the concessions begin right from conception of idea!!!!
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Re: Indian Economy - News & Discussion 27 May 2012

Post by vera_k »

The street vendor is not being charged, rather his customers are. The service tax in particular was introduced as a second central tax, since there is rampant income tax evasion, such that very few people pay their income tax.
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