Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[ramana]

AnandK, Was it some Jeffery Kripal who had Fraudian insights?

[Anand K]

AnandK, Was it some Jeffery Kripal who had Fraudian insights?

Hey..... thats it. Jeffrey Kripal! Gracias!

I googled and found there's even a write-up about the book on Wiki-aunty.
Kali's Child

[ukumar]

Ukumar wrote

IMO, what would be interesting is to identify list of observation on which scholars agree and possible dates when they were true.

EoA - Epoch of Arundhati from 11091 BC - 4508 BC, based on one straighforward observation I identify for Indians to agree on (forget scholars... they may or may not agree.. depending on their level of comprehension, their ability and willingness to free themselves of age old shackles, their ability to understand method and logic of science, and their desire for truth). My insistance on EoA (thanks to ravi-g for short nomenclature) is not because I was lucky enough to stumble on it and resolve it, but rather because of its simplicity, verifiability, testability (all mean the same, but anytime I hear word scholar.. I get into my scholarly mode.. sorry!)

This should at least identify the lower bound date for MBh.

I agree. This is the point RajeshA ji recognized first and formost when he read my book, that the roadblock to any scientist, astronomer, astrophysicist, geologists, sanskrists, AITer, PIE-ty, Linguists etc.. is this roadblock of 4508 BC.

I believe it would come out to be Iyenger's ~1500BC. That would push Rigveda at least to ~1900BC, contemporary with Harappans, earliest attested IE language and make it harder to argue that Mittani folks were before Rigveda.

It comes out to 4508 BC and not 1500 BC. That pushes Rigveda ...before 4500 BC, before Harappan civilization and also FALSIFIES claim that 'Mittani folks were before Rigveda' (no need to argue.. hard, harder, hardest..etc.)

After that we can continue to establish next possible date.

I suggest after this, researchers can explore EoA for year of MBH War, if they don't agree MBH corrborations for 5561 BC + continue to search for other ancient Indian events.

Nileshji, My point is to identify the observations which are non controversial and several experts can agree on. Such set of observation would provide several dates before 1000BC. Lower bound date established in this manner would be on solid ground. As more and more observations are agreed upon date can be narrowed down further. You still have some work to do before making your EoA observation well accepted. Don't you think there is value in such approach to streamline the study of MBh dating?

[ukumar]

I have one doubt with date older than forth millenium BC. World population becomes very small as we go deep in to prehistory. I think society needs critical mass of people, technological advancement and social organization to free up brain power to preserve knowledge. You need people dedicating their life to memorize Vedas and they need support from the society. Beyond certain time depth it may not be possible to remember anything more than legends. So some legends from Rigveda may go deep in to prehistory but the whole MBh text is a stretch.

What is so magical about 4th millennium BC, that doubts should begin for a time period only before this time?

As we go back in further antiquity, we will face problems of higher complexity and of multiple dimension....not just populations, but also technology, communication, languages, art of writing, and many more.

This is when 'fearlessness (Abhayam) and humbleness (a-manita) comes in handy. As a seeker (seeker after truth that is.) we will have to question every existing theory....iron/bronze/stone age thinking, 'civilization after 3500 BC nonsense', 'written languages after 3000 BC, horse domesticatin after 3500 BC, Astronomy observation only after establishment of NASA.. and so on.

Many of these are based on scholarly opinion and foolishness, others are based on statements made by people in position of power (religious, administrative, military, wealth, resources..etc.)

What part of MBH text is stretch? You say 'whole MBH text, so I will re-phrase the question..."What specific aspect of MBH text bothers you the most?"

Nileshji,

My doubt is based on common sense. I say 4th millenium because before that there is no evidence of a society which would produce enough surplus to support a life style required to preserve large literature like MBh in such a great details. World population is estimated to be around 7Mil on 4000BC. Out of that ~2Mil was in India and they probably lived in group of 500-1000 scattered around in large area. Their energy would be spent in day to day survival in absence of technological development. They would have gone through many catastrophic events with a potential to extinct them. It is hard to imaging that such society was able to preserve one historical event in great details. Laws of Physics does apply.

[ukumar]

ukumar wrote:
I have one doubt with date older than forth millenium BC. World population becomes very small as we go deep in to prehistory. I think society needs critical mass of people, technological advancement and social organization to free up brain power to preserve knowledge. You need people dedicating their life to memorize Vedas and they need support from the society. Beyond certain time depth it may not be possible to remember anything more than legends. So some legends from Rigveda may go deep in to prehistory but the whole MBh text is a stretch.

Dwivedis, Trivedis and Chaturvedis were critical mass of people who had to dedicate their lives to study vedas, memorise and be a master in one ved.

All brahmins were supposed to learn all the vedas, and master one.

The brahmin groups of Dwivedis were identified to master Yajurved.
Trivedis to master Sam Ved. Raavan was a trivedi brahmin.
Chaturvedis - Atharva Ved

Other understanding is that the Dwivedis used to master Two veds, Trivedis Three Veds and so on, but this is far fetched.

Now only the surnames have remained and the duties are of various kinds of babus.

But, some activities are taking place and people are again finding interest in vedas, upanishads and darshans, which was earlier just chest beating and rhetoric, the new trend looks solid and people have resources and will.

In all panch goud and panch dravid brahmins, one can find groups of brahmins identified with ved.

During marriage ceremony also the Priest used to ask for three things
1) Gotra of Groom
2) Pravar of Groom
3) Specific Ved of Groom in case of Brahmin

I agree and my point is that such social organization needs support from wider society. For every Brahmin family there has to be many more families doing life sustaining work. It is hard to imagine such society could be sustained with stone tools.

[ukumar]

Will start posting on "Rigveda - A Historical Analysis" soon, as per time constraints.

KLP Dubey ji,

I cannot stop you from posting this nor would I want to. There are some who have even requested you to go ahead.

Here is my take on the consequences. I'll try to explain using some analogies.

Why is it a naivety of the highest kind?

a) Has anybody ever seen a Christian Theologian or the Church debating "Immaculate Birth" or "Jesus as Son of God" openly in public forums against those who don't believe in it? If somebody has, then he has a richer experience in life, than me. But I say that such debates have not taken place, and the reason it is so is because it is stupid to put the cornerstone of one's faith up for discussion and allow it to be attacked in public, and to legitimize such an attack with one's own presence in such a debate.

The cornerstone of wisdom on debates is one doesn't put one's crown jewels on the gambling table!

And a debate is a gambling table. It is not even necessary that the one with the best arguments wins a public debate, but often it is the one who sounds more rational and who provides the best sound-bites, the best quips, who wins over the public. Often the debates are also not decided in favor of one or the other person's position. They remain open-ended and each side claims they won. The public decides simply by popularity and sympathy.

It is really fine to go into the debate on some issue on the fringe of the faith, say some custom on what kind of tilak one should wear or something like that! But one doesn't take the crown jewels to the casino! That is simply the rule!

So if one starts a debate on the nature of the Vedas, you can be sure that there would be others who would bring or conjure up various arguments against! And mind you even ridicule would be used as a tool and would be considered fair game.

Let's not even try to compare the current environment to that of the old, where a debate was held between two scholars and he who lost was supposed to take over the philosophy of the other. The debates may also have been heated but there was a codex to these debates. Don't expect that today. And no side would accept any defeat. It will always be a draw.

So what would one have achieved? Nothing! One would have simply raised the interest of the others to focus on the issue! One would have invited attacks on the centrality of one's belief system! Is that what one would want? Nobody walks from this debate a winner! It is unjustified arrogance to think one can win a debate. One never does that. One just splits the audience. And one should not expect that if one starts a debate, the other side would not respond. They will.

Motto: Don't gamble with the crown jewels!

b) Also what we are seeing here is you choosing a very specific opponent - Shri Shrikant G. Talageri! And then referencing his works.

Now it is one thing to put forth one's views on an issue, say the nature of the Vedas, i.e. without making a specific reference to any work one wishes to criticize. That way you are not challenging any one in particular. That is understood as purely your opinion, and people say, well you have a right to have an opinion and to express it. Nobody feels challenged, nobody feels called upon to respond to it.

However if one names one's opponent or references his works, one marks one's "enemy", then that is a challenge. And then one should expect a fierce response.

So again one should be cognizant of the difference between expressing one's viewpoint and challenging someone.

Moral: Better to speak without marking the enemy!

c) Who is Shri Shrikant Talageri today? In a small community of those fed up with AIT and those better read, he is a star who made Witzel speechless! But beyond that? Does anybody know him? Is he a popular star? Does the whole of India know him? Hardly!

So what exactly are you going to do to him? The only thing I can see that would happen is that a public no-holds barred debate on the very interesting and juicy topic of the nature of Vedas, would only end up making the little known Shri Shrikant Talageri into a more popular icon!

One doesn't know how far the debate would roll on, and how much it would contribute to Shrikant Talageri's popularity! As of now, he may remain an unsung Indian hero, with emphasis on 'unsung'!

Moral: Don't do publicity for your enemy!

d) At the moment, there are many Indians, Indian like me. We don't know the philosophical details of the two positions. We think both can be aligned into a single narrative. We don't want to choose! We don't want to choose between faith and the human disposition to curiosity and apparent 'reasonableness'! We want to keep our faith! We want to be able to feel the divinity of the Vedas and its chants! We also want to support the concept of unfettered inquiry and support those who wish to know more about the Vedas, those who speculate on its possible origins and don't want to be satisfied with 'You cannot speculate because we have no data!' I am satisfied with the position of ambivalence.

An Indic like me, doesn't want to asked to choose! An Indic like me, doesn't want to hear, "You are with us, or you are against us." Anybody who puts somebody like me in a situation, will only heap scorn for making us choose, and just for the reason of coercing me to choose, the reaction would be one of anger, an anger which could push people like me into the opposite camp, something that could have been avoided through ambiguity.

Moral: Don't force a decision onto unwilling people!

e) So how is this going to play out among the public?

If there is any sure way of making a man into a Copernicus or even a Galileo, then this must be one! This debate would be pitted as a fight of a scientific researcher against the Hindu orthodoxy and dogma. It would also be posited that the Hindu Orthodoxy does not wish to embrace science and logic.

Once the fight gets reformulated as a "struggle" of this nature, then one can be sure that Shrikant Talageri would be considered a "martyr" in the cause of science and against superstition.

This is not about whether the "Veda is eternal and authorless" position is right or wrong. It is just the instinctive reaction of the public today (at least the elite) to accept all the claims of scientists and reject those of the religious authorities, and in a debate consider the scientist as oppressed by the "evil" Brahmins or so!

Motto: Don't make your enemy into a hero!

f) So who is going to come to Shrikant Talageri's support and rescue?

Actually even though he has created a good corpus of work which is there to negate the many historical frauds perpetuated on the Indian public, I expect the same public to come out of the woodwork and give open support to Talageri. Now Talageri may even loathe to get support from the various Marxist and AIT-Sepoy quarters, he will still be getting unqualified support, so one can expect a stream of secular riffraff coming forward to show support!

Motto: Don't push your enemies closer together!

g) And what are these new "friends" of Talageri going to be doing?

Yes, they are going to be taking cover of Talageri's fight with you, but they will proceed with their agenda. They will in his name try to malign Hindu faith, throwing ridicule at it, and showing it as in opposition to science. Even if Talageri would want to shut them up, they will not do so, and they will continue to exploit the rift.

One only needs to see how Bolsheviks exploited the Mensheviks in uprooting the Kaiser family, and when the work was done they let go of them. Similarly in Iran, during the Revolution, the Shi'a clergy were more than happy to join up with Marxists and Democrats, in fact with all non-Monarchists to get rid of the monarch, but once there was a regime change the Shi'a clergy eliminated them all. One must also notice how a few mischief-makers, can really hijack the a street demonstration and make it violent.

Motto: Don't give your real enemies a platform or high ground to attack you!

h) And what about the public?

They are going to be split right through the middle. No such split was necessary. After the right chronology for India is accepted by the GoI or world, as such there would be no more need for Anukramani-based Rigvedic history research. So the views of the people would have remained vague, ambiguous. After the re-establishment of the Indic narrative, they would have accepted the Vedic narrative.

But if this issue is made into an affair, people would be forced to take a stand. Each would have to choose right away, what they are going to be believe in. Each would be coerced to make a choice. The more one raises the issue, the higher is going to be the polarization.

Motto: Don't make the nature of Vedas into a controversial issue, for that simply increases polarization in Hindu society.!

_____________


I was hoping that the schism among Indians would develop based on some less important issue- say Yugas, or cyclic time, etc. But it is a pity that the schism is going to be created based on the core of Hinduism - the Vedas themselves.

Of course, the match would be a nice death-match to watch, but if this issue snowballs on the national level, and I fear some of those sickulars would love just such an issue, then this could have some grave repercussions.

How do I feel about it? I have mixed feelings! I think it would be positive for the This-world-origin-of-Vedas people, as those who have kept their distance due to secularism would return to the fold of Indics, even for the wrong reasons, but the fact that Hindu Orthodoxy is being opposed would give them a reason to join the camp.

I have negative feelings because through this challenge to Shrikant Talageri, one would make this ideological schism permanent, by removing all ambiguity! In the long run, Hinduism would suffer because the Mimamsa ideologues through a challenge would have legitimized a second Hindu pole, to which the Hindus could jump to, but this Hindu pole may lack the strength that comes from the Vedas, and thus may be susceptible, and I talk of it not necessarily from orthodox Hinduism but various other faiths.

Talageri has provided key to unlock mystery of RigVeda. He has demystified the vedas and I am happy to see young minds trying to go to the source and understand it themselves. He is very convincing in his argument to explain Iranian Migration from India. He is lot more rational in his approach than Witzel. I think RigVeda does contain symbolic knowledge like what Sri Aurobindo or Sri Kak proposes but there is also non religious content. I came across this gentleman and I really like the way he is studying the RigVeda. Specially I loved his fictional story based on historic events in Book 6. More power to guys like him to reclaim the narrative of the RigVeda.


http://rigvedaanalysis.wordpress.com/
http://rigvedafiction.blogspot.com/

[shiv]

Folks - can we get some focus back here? The issue is not the Rig Veda but the dating of sanskrit. The Rigveda cropped up only because it has been used like a KY jelly on a condom to lubricate certain AIT dates. It can also be used as KY jelly for other dates and that only leaves us no further.

Technically we could take the view that it should be possible to arrive at some date for the presence of Sanskrit in India without any reference to the Rig Veda at all. But I would caution against this attitude because it is claimed that the elements that went into the composition of the Rig Veda were already present with the invading migrating Aryans in 1500 BC in Syria, and that is why the Mitanni treaty mentions a whole series of so called "Vedic" Gods. These Gods were already deities in Syria. About half a century later they were absorbed into India and now Hindus claim them to be their own, ignoring archaeological evidence.

It is "generally accepted" that the Vedas were composed (some AIT nazis say "compiled from memory") around the banks of the Indus and its tributaries. Why should this be so? Why not Syria? Unfortunately the only choice we have as Indians is to accept that it could be Syria, or say why it must be India. The only way the India argument holds good is via the "geographical references" of the Rig Veda which seem to mention the Sindhu, its tributaries and the Saraswati river. If we start claiming that the Rig Veda has no geographical references, it only strengthens the argument that the River names are all imaginary and symbolic, and AIT time line is correct. No matter whether the Rig veda is handed down from Brahma or Yahweh my personal judgement on this is that the Rig Veda inescapably and unmistakably mentions river names and those rivers are the Ganga, Jamuna, Saraswati, Sindhu and other tributaries. No one can duck this.

Why is this important in dating Sanskrit?
1. It fixes the geography
2. It suggests the presence of a might river Saraswati that later ran dry and this plays a role in dating Sanskrit

This is as far as the involvement of the Rig Veda goes for the dating of Sanskrit. The other arguments about horse, wheel, chariot, grave culture, horse culture etc can all be countered on many other grounds,

We have to look for dates for Sanskrit (or some pre-Sanskrit "Indo-European language") in India. Everything we have seen so far seems to point towards the inexorable fact that the AIT proposed dates of 1500 to 1200 BC for Sanskrit in Pakistan and Northwest India is too conservative and recent a date. The Rig veda is associated with a river that ran dry in 2000 BB. And Sanskrit clearly existed at that time. If Sanskrit was already present in 2000 BC why are there no references to that marvellous city civilization along the Saraswati and Sindhu rivers? One possibility is that Sanskrit and the Rig veda predated that civilization - or coincided with its earliest periods when life was pastoral and rural.

How this fits in with other linguistic theories should not be difficult to say, provided we work on it. A common Proto Indo European could well have existed by 10,000 BC with roots going back to 25,000 BC and migrations to Europe and India.

[Lalmohan]

can someone educate me on prakrit vs sanskrit?

[member_20317]

RajeshA ji, request you to put in a test mail to me at
mongrelji@gchacha.


Shiv ji (before the Nishachar people come on the thread and draw your attention away),

AIT strategy is to misdate RV at upper level and misdate Gautam Buddha/Sandrokotus at lower end and cram everything in between, like a tight mosaic that seems lifelike to a lazy mind. This additionally creates a minefield for the Indics to negotiate while the westerners have their popcorns.

By arguing on RV to support OIT, Indics are playing to the AIT initiative and that too at the outskirts or the outer wall of their castle.

MBH and before that Ramayana, both mention Vedas. I have seen claims that Valmiki considered Vedas Apaurusheya. That implies that the usage of Vedic sounds for Sanskritic development had already started by these periods. I am damn sure all the flora/fauna/rivers/topography that is mentioned in Vedas will be found in Ramayana and MBH also, in fact with better discriptions.

If these later dates are established then Vedic dates cannot be brought after these dates. The later misdating of Gautam Buddha gets forced into earlier periods or at the very least AIT walas will be forced into a defensive position having to explain/accept the inherently patchy nature of history with which OIT is very comfortable. OIT wins by default. OIT people get an opportunity to formulate their attack on the ‘RV based AIT’ at the same time OIT people get an opportunity to formulate their own ideas without suffering from the same fatality as the AIT. Above all else, the pre-eminence of Vedas does not gets questioned.

Shiv ji, you of all people should realize how important the Apaurusheya nature of Vedas is going to be in future when Indics have to snatch back what has been usurped. There is little point in saving the Desha without any Dharma in it.

The fight is not for Desh alone. The whole of the rest of the world has Desh of their own.

The fight is for both Desh and Dharma, something that only Indics and Indic influenced people have understood. Reestablishment of both Desh and Dharm can help people understand the symbiotic relationship between Desh and Dharm. Thus uprooting the forces that seek to obscure this relationship.

With this post I was merely trying to highlight what I felt would be the better OIT strategy. The extent of bitterness forced into AIT walas should be enough of an indication that OIT strategy which is not well defined right now, is already working even in its nascent form. To crystallize the OIT strategy I suggest the usage of Talagiri as a diversionary tactic, by showing how AIT propositions can be turned on their head. And use Ramayana+MBH as the right upper cut to deliver the Knock out.

[A_Gupta]

When the theory was that invading Aryans were destroyers of Harappan culture cities, none of the linguists had any problem with -pur indicating town or city. Now -pur is taken merely to mean a enclosed space.

[member_22872]

Mandi : The village where lot of IVC seals were found and which motivated Sullivan's work (Also note Mandi is in UP):
Stealing From History An Indian village finds—and keeps—a 4,000-year-old treasure trove (2000)

From the above article:

On that hot June day, Kumar was in Delhi visiting a sick relative. While he was away, the three women of Mandi uncovered an estimated 500 kg of gold and jewels dating from the Harappa civilization, which flourished in the Indus Valley more than 4,000 years ago.

By 6 p.m. most of Mandi's 4,000 inhabitants were crowded onto Kumar's 500-sq-m plot. "It was a complete free-for-all—people were fighting and snatching things from each other," says villager Mahak Singh, 58, who went to have a look after nightfall. "They were walking away with shawls filled with those small gold discs. They were spilling out all over the place."

Too sad that people loot national treasure who have no clue what they robbed.

[Nilesh Oak]

Nileshji, My point is to identify the observations which are non controversial and several experts can agree on. Such set of observation would provide several dates before 1000BC. Lower bound date established in this manner would be on solid ground. As more and more observations are agreed upon date can be narrowed down further. Don't you think there is value in such approach to streamline the study of MBh dating?

Ukumar ji,

Your intention is right (identify noncontroversial observations that several experts can agree on).
-I don't know of any observation that would be noncontroversial where several experts can agree on in the time range of say 1000 BC, or 1500 BC.
-The closest one may come to your definition would be 3102 BC - all planets close to Sun and beginning of Kaliyuga. Again, while planetary evidence may be non-controversial, it will be a stretch to get several experts to agree on this time = beginnning of Kaliyuga.

Addtional problem with 'several experts' is the problem of infinite regression.....what is several? what is definition of experts? (for example, am I an expert? or I better first have PhD, or an academic position, or academic position with tenure, etc. What do we do with a scenario where we also have several experts who do agree, then another group of experts who does not agree..... this is what I mean by infinite regression.

I suggest we modify that to.

Identify noncontroversial observations. Forget the experts.

Experts have no business being in their field and call themselves so until they are willing to make their research vulnerable (testable, falsifiable), i.e. scientific.

How we get to noncontroversial observations? Answer: Independant tests.

That is why I said as far as MBH is concerned, using astronmy evidence within, we can pose a lower limit of 4508 BC .. that anyone, I mean anyone around the world can independantly test and corroborate.

Ukumar wrote...

You still have some work to do before making your EoA observation well accepted.

What kind/type of work you think I need to do? If by work, you mean PR, then yes, but I want to do it more to make world population, interested in ancient history of mankind, aware of this finding. On the other hand, I do not understand what you mean by 'well accepted'.

The observation is there, astronomy data is there, to those lazy like me.. sophisticated software are there, all is needed is curiosity and willingness to test it.. whoever wants to test it.

If ....whoever these 'experts' you refer to, need long time before they can remove the fog and see the light, there is little that I or you can do. As far as seeing the truth/beauty of EoA....... time, money, resources or even intellect is not a constraint..... I take it back.. may be intellect is a constraint.... In words of Balwinder singh Sidduh ji... "Murkho ki sari rat, chatur ki ek ghadi"


( In this context, it is worth recalling that many critics of Galileo, simply refused to look through his telescope at 'moon (for rough surface) and at Jupiter for its moons, lest they would be convinced of his assertions).

Interestingly I have experienced 'deja vu' of Galileo experience in last 18 months ....several (>20) times. So called experts have come with all sorts of excuses why they should not look at this observation and its corroboration!

[RajeshA]

Can you do that without attacking people and personalities?

Why is there an assumption that I must be "attacking" someone ? I am critiquing/refuting certain ideas, and in that course I should refer to the works of people who are propagating those ideas.

KLP Dubey ji,

Speaking for myself, I used the word "attacking" in the sense of "attacking" another's position on some idea by making direct reference to the person by name or to his works by name.

I would like to share some thoughts with you.

If I understand it correctly, Mimamsa position is that all proper nouns in the Vedas have only internal relevance, and have no relation to anything in this world, not even the deities. I myself, I must admit, am new to this philosophy, but I find this position quite good in building an unassailable fortress. In fact, thinking strategically, I couldn't have chosen a better position to defend the faith.

However I think one needs to appreciate that the current AIT attack based on Rig Veda is not really about the Rig Veda, but about the Sanskrit, and the ownership of the deities. The AIT people will never really try to malign the Rig Vedic deities, though all the mythology that came later on concerning with Vishnu-Shiva-Brahma-Shakti, etc. all that is open for attack. The AIT-Nazis will not attack Rig-Vedic deities because they want to share ownership as Indo-Europeans, or rather to claim them for themselves. So the AIT-Nazi attack is not a typical religious attack which tries to malign the other's deities, philosophical positions, customs, etc. The AIT-Nazis don't want to prove that Rig Veda is inferior to their religion. They just want to say that it is in fact a memory of their culture written in a language derived from their language (PIE).

As such, the debates the Mimamsa school had with the Buddhism, Nyaya, Sankhya, etc. do not apply here as debating models against the AIT-Nazis.

The AIT-Nazis want to own the historicity narrative of the Rig Veda, Sanskrit and Rig Vedic deities.

I just wanted to explain my position, and that I do not wish to see Vedic authority come to any harm!

[Nilesh Oak]

Nileshji,

My doubt is based on common sense. I say 4th millenium because before that there is no evidence of a society which would produce enough surplus to support a life style required to preserve large literature like MBh in such a great details. World population is estimated to be around 7Mil on 4000BC. Out of that ~2Mil was in India and they probably lived in group of 500-1000 scattered around in large area. Their energy would be spent in day to day survival in absence of technological development. They would have gone through many catastrophic events with a potential to extinct them. It is hard to imaging that such society was able to preserve one historical event in great details. Laws of Physics does apply.

If you notice, I asked 'what aspect do you doubt? and not Why?

What you have is conjecture that says " Before 4th Millennium BC, there was no surplus produce.. that would allow people free time to pursue things such as writing MBH (long epic)"

(While the sources of our conjectures are interesting to know, they are not necessary for our investigation and no one can use it as argument against the conejcture. What I am saying is our ideas may come from religious dogma, crazy thought, dream...it does not mattter.. what matters is how we test our conjecture).

It is easy to mistake EoA = AoE (duh.. I meant 'evidence of absence, and not Epoch of Arundhati). Evidence of absence is not to be confused with 'Absence of evidence'.

I will not comment on rest of what you wrote above. It has all types of guesses, proposals and more guesses, however none of it individuallly or together, make a strong (or even weak) case for inability of MBH being written before 4th millennium BC.

On the other hand EOA (Epoch of Arundhati) makes a strong case for happening of MBH war before 4508 BC. The right question to ask is how come they could write in spite of struggling lifestle (your assumption/conjecture). And if you still think it is impossible for a struggling hamanity to write such long epic, then it is your conjecture that needs a second look. This is consistent with going from what is on 'solid' footing towards what is not so solid.

[RajeshA]

With this post I was merely trying to highlight what I felt would be the better OIT strategy. The extent of bitterness forced into AIT walas should be enough of an indication that OIT strategy which is not well defined right now, is already working even in its nascent form. To crystallize the OIT strategy I suggest the usage of Talageri as a diversionary tactic, by showing how AIT propositions can be turned on their head. And use Ramayana+MBH as the right upper cut to deliver the Knock out.

ravi_g ji,

that is in fact the strategy.

I too think that the proper chronology of our dynasties need to be restored, Actually the Sandrokottus == Chandragupta equation can be used very effectively for the reinstatement of our own chronology, if we take Sandrokottus == Chandragupta I Gupta and not Chandragupta Maurya (coronation: 1534 BCE). It also allows us to calculate backwards, even without using our calendars.

Basically if we are putting Gautama Buddha as having lived in 1887-1807 BCE, then the whole AIT collapses of its own.

The other thing we need to pursue the correct date of birth of Āryabhaṭa, which would be 2765 BCE. AIT collapses again.

So in fact even without the dating of our Itihaas which really points to very very old dates, even our royal lineages should be enough to put AIT-Nazis out of business.

[shiv]

A prediction. You will hear less and less about R1a1 as time passes because it looks more and more like the bloody pesky gene originated among SDREs

Check Wiki latest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29

[RajeshA]

On Dwarka

Published on Feb 01, 2006
By Badrinaryan Badrinaryan
Chief Geologist of National Institute of Ocean Technology in 1999-2000
Gulf of Cambay: Cradle of Ancient Civilization

The northern metropolis has well made pottery pieces, wattle daub etc. from about 7506 BP onwards. It indicates well organized city living. Hence it is possible that this metropolis came up after 8450 but much before 7506 BP, may be after the submergence of the southern metropolis. The ancients appear to have shifted and founded the northern metropolis. However the various earlier dates from sun-dried pots etc. indicate that it was under constant habitation.

Apart from palaeolithic macro tools several pieces of micro tools have been collected. Usage of such tools have been reported in America, Europe and other places. In south America especially from Brazil presence of human beings are reported from 14000 BP, coinciding with big Pleistocene mammals. The study there indicated that between 17000 and 7000 BP most coastal plains have been lost due to sea level rise. Several microlithic tools which were recovered are seen to occur from 10970 BP. But the lagoa santa people occupying these areas in Brazil suddenly disappeared between 8000 and 7000 BP. In Europe in France, Germany, Belgium etc. the microlithic tool period started from 11800 BP taking back the age of the Mesolithic period. The microlithic period spread to several areas and lasted up to the seventh millennium BP.

In the Gulf of Cambay a variety of microlithic tools have been obtained in continuation of late palaeolithic tools. The presence of highly evolved experimental pottery from 13000 BP, organized living, sedentary well planned habitation, advanced sanitary and town planning activities in the southern metropolis indicates that it had developed to be a established civilization from about 13000 BP. Already there were evidences for control of fire, making pottery etc. from about 16840 BP. The southern metropolis so far has provided datable objects up to 8500 BP. The well developed northern metropolis has dates of civilization from about 7506 BP. In this one should take into consideration the ideas given by Graham Hancock who also postulated that several cultures in near coastal areas have been flooded and submerged by rising sea level caused by melting of icecap subsequent to the last iceage. The inundation maps prepared by Dr. Glen Milne of Durham University, England clearly shows that the Gulf of cambay area prior to 7600 BP was mostly land and after 6900 BP it is mostly submerged. This type of rise in sea level is very much supported by the work of Dr.P.K.Banerjee pertaining to southeast coast of Indi, work of Sahidul Islam and Tooly in the Bay of Bengal in Bangladesh and Sen and Banerji’s work near Calcutta.

[RajeshA]

A prediction. You will hear less and less about R1a1 as time passes because it looks more and more like the bloody pesky gene originated among SDREs

Check Wiki latest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29

Also it is not so widely spread among the Germanic people - Ireland, Britain, Netherlands, Germany, and people with these backgrounds are the most keen to do this kind of research.

[Nilesh Oak]

A prediction. You will hear less and less about R1a1 as time passes because it looks more and more like the bloody pesky gene originated among SDREs

Check Wiki latest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29

Also it is not so widely spread among the Germanic people - Ireland, Britain, Netherlands, Germany, and people with these backgrounds are the most keen to do this kind of research.

Shiv ji,

Possible. However it will be difficult for dogmatic elements to completely stop the R1a1 research. Exploration of Y chromosome has just begun and long way to go (and is hiding many mysteries). We should all be ready for turbulant ride. The code of Y chromosome is much longer (in comparison to mitochondria), thus hard to study (in terms of lenght, volume, complexitiy and thus size of samples desired), but will turn equally rewarding. Y chromosome related studies.. when progressed further.. has significant additional advanatge in terms of clarity of migration because with Male - XY, Female - XX, it is lot easy to track journy of Y. Less prone to confused interpretations.

Who and where are our in forum geneticists?

As such we have learnt a lot about migration from 'mitochondria' (female side of progression).

[member_22872]

From R1a1a wiki page:

On the other hand, other recent studies such as Zhao et al. (2009) continue to treat R1a in modern India as being at least partly due to immigration from the northwest associated with Indoeuropean languages and culture. One argument for this, as stated for example by Thanseem et al. (2006), is that this is implied by the uneven distribution pattern of R1a between castes and regions. Higher castes and more northerly Indian populations are considered to be more directly descended from the populations who brought Indoeuropean languages to India, and they tend to have higher levels of R1a than lower castes, and more southerly populations, while tribal castes and non Indoeuropean speaking groups tend to have the lowest frequencies of R1a. In order to explain exceptions to this pattern, these authors propose that R1a in India is also partly due to earlier movements of people from central Asia. A recent paper on ethnic groups of Afghanistan have found the Mid-Holocene R1a1a7 M-458 sublineage to be absent there which does not support the view of R1a1a's relation with the intrusional indo-european languages to Central Asia and South Asia.[44] Middle East

It would be Help ful to see if Zhao and Thanseem are curve fitting to agree with linguists and archeologists who want to prove the AMT argument . It seems like it.

[shiv]

On Dwarka

Published on Feb 01, 2006
By Badrinaryan Badrinaryan
Chief Geologist of National Institute of Ocean Technology in 1999-2000
Gulf of Cambay: Cradle of Ancient Civilization

Good paper. Thanks

[Nilesh Oak]

On Dwarka

Published on Feb 01, 2006
By Badrinaryan Badrinaryan
Chief Geologist of National Institute of Ocean Technology in 1999-2000
Gulf of Cambay: Cradle of Ancient Civilization

Good paper. Thanks

Great paper. Interesting, he refers to this civilization going back to 13000 BP (~11000 BC). The Indian texts do refer to existance of 'Kushasthali', in the same region, long before Krishna's establishment of Dwarka.

Number of people have encouraged me to write for GH site. I plan to. I wish (only for this) I had 4 hands of Ganesha!

I also liked the idea of Murugan ji, to do something along the lines of TED or TED-X, in the context of 'BR'.

[shiv]

Possible. However it will be difficult for dogmatic elements to completely stop the R1a1 research. Exploration of Y chromosome has just begun and long way to go (and is hiding many mysteries). We should all be ready for turbulant ride. The code of Y chromosome is much longer (in comparison to mitochondria), thus hard to study (in terms of lenght, volume, complexitiy and thus size of samples desired), but will turn equally rewarding. Y chromosome related studies.. when progressed further.. has significant additional advanatge in terms of clarity of migration because with Male - XY, Female - XX, it is lot easy to track journy of Y. Less prone to confused interpretations.

Nileshji - call my prediction one that is based on some intuition. Genetics is important, but it is also untrue that Indians did not preserve the history for their own civilization in the last 6-8000 years. Unlike many other cultures, they did and in that civilizational memory there is no invasion. Genetics will not come up with anything different.

I am ready to be told that I was wrong - but I am willing to bet on it. Last 6 to 8000 years, no "invasion"

[Nilesh Oak]

Nileshji - call my prediction one that is based on some intuition. Genetics is important, but it is also untrue that Indians did not preserve the history for their own civilization in the last 6-8000 years. Unlike many other cultures, they did and in that civilizational memory there is no invasion. Genetics will not come up with anything different.

I am ready to be told that I was wrong - but I am willing to bet on it. Last 6 to 8000 years, no "invasion"

No issues there whatsoever. I am comfortable even going back to 18000 BP/BC...... as one goes farther back in antiquity......BP/BC are almost same, not unlike (degree C and degree F, in negative temperature range... near -30 to -50).

Few good mile posts also exists that go back to 31000 BP (I am picking this number as Badrinarayann ji refers to it in his article on GH site). Beyond that I see few other mile posts, albeit barely visible in fog, taking us back to~ 80K (80,000 Years). Yes. No typo.

Beyond that, for now anyway.. I have to open BG and start singing...'Janma karma cha me divyam....' or 'Dehinosmin yatha dehe kaumaryam yauvanam jara'

[RajeshA]

Indus Script

I am posting something Sue Sullivan posted on IndiaArchaeology Yahoo Group, in Thread: No scientific basis for the Aryan Invasion Theory (TRS Prasanna, Current Science July 2012).

Sep 07, 2012

Visit 'Indus Script Dictionary' on Facebook and download the Indus Sign list there. See if you can use the sign list to decipher a randomly chosen Indus seal.

Sep 14, 2012

Indus script encodes Sanskrit and Prakrit because it does. I was expecting to find a Dravidian language, or perhaps Akkadian or Sumerian, but this is what I found after sign comparison between Brahmi Script and Linear Elamite (the few signs that have known values from the Table au Lion) and Indus script: the name 'Mani' (seals H525, H819, and 5 others) the Sanskrit word 'namana' ('greetings,' on seals M1084, M227a, and M1118a) and Sanskrit and Prakrit names including Aprian, Ayama, Bijavahan, Bhimanath, Vathrupa, Vamadevan, Kamabira, Ravi, Ravinandan, Ravimaderu, Ravicharya, Varnamatrikandran, Prini, Shyama, Kantamahan, Hemanajani, Andajan, Biren, Sauma, Acharya, Tridashan, Babhru, and many, many others. I also found Tamil names such as Selvan, Selvaman and Van, but they are perhaps 2% of the total.

Sep 17, 2012

I have come to the conclusion that the animal pictorials on Indus seals indicate nationality or citizenship. For instance, a lot of the seals from Banawali have a water buffalo emblem on them. Most of the seals from Harappa and Mohenjo-daro display the unicorn bull. Seals with a tiger tend to have a south Indian name on them, such as Selvan or Selvandran, so the tiger might be the emblem of a south Indian kingdom.

The animal pictorials have little value in deciphering the text on the seals, it is as if one tried to decipher the text on an American quarter by assuming that it read 'eagle,' just because the coin has an eagle emblem on it.

I already have phonic values for 98 Indus signs, and the names showing up on the seals are such things as Ravi, Mani, Agni, Biren, Ayama, Rantu, Manajani, Andajan, Vatarupa, Rupaayama, Ashutosh, and so forth. See the Facebook page 'Indus Script Dictionary' for more info. Someone has set up a blank page with no info on it, do a search when you get to Facebook and you'll get to the genuine page, which has plenty of photos and comments from readers.

Sep 18, 2012

The animal pictorial has nothing to do with the text on the seal. If you are from the state of Maryland your driver's license will show the seal of that state, no matter what your name is.

Sep 18, 2012

I compared Indus script with Linear Elamite from a graphic of a monument called the Table au Lion that has an Akkadian/Linear Elamite bilingual inscription. This gave me sound values for 2 Indus signs, 'shu' and 'na.' Then I compared Brahmi script with Indus script and got sound values for a dozen or so more signs, including 'ma,' 'ga,' 'dha,' 'pa,' 'ba,' 'ta,' 'tha,' 'va,' 'a,' 'aksha,' 'ha,' and 'la.' I found three seals that all had the same inscription, 'fish arrow.' Knowing that the fish was most likely an archaic version of Brahmi 'ma,' I went to babynology.com and looked for a 2 syllable Tamil name that began with 'ma.' The obvious answer was 'Mani.' and this gave me the sound value of the arrow sign, 'ni.' Encouraged by this, I decoded another 3 seals that all had the same inscription, 'na-ma-na.' Then I found that I wasn't dealing with a Dravidian language after all. 'Namana' means greetings in Sanskrit. I kept going back and forth to babynology and getting Sanskrit and Prakrit names; Ka-nta-ma-ha-an, Bi-rya-an (biren, lord of warriors), Sau-ma (soma) and so on. When I had about 80 signs deciphered I decided to make a website chronicling my efforts. Then I posted on Facebook about what I was doing and asked for help. This was 2 years ago and there was little response at the time. More recently I have gotten excellent advice from Facebook readers in India and one of them has actually figured out one of the signs that had me stumped. I have ordered volume 3 of Parpola's Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions and will soon be adding more photos to my database and sharing them with readers on Facebook.

So far I have 98 signs deciphered. There may be about 150 signs total in Indus script. Guesses of as many as 600 Indus signs are wild exaggerations based on variants and reversals of common signs.

[member_22872]

And Sullivan on Indus script, sign for horse, posting image, I apologize if the image appears large. From Indus script Dictionary:

[RajeshA]

venug ji,

your image isn't visible! You'll have to make the image publicly visible. Perhaps you too need to log out of your account, to see that it is not generally visible.

[ramana]

RajeshA, The tiger is the emblem of the Pandyas who are mentioned even in Mahabharata!!!

[Gus]

@Ramana - Tiger is Chola. Pandya had fish as symbol.

[member_22872]

But it looks like most of the symbols are based on Sanskrit, lot of references to Shiva, The yogic pose deity too is Shiva. But some are also influenced by Tamil and also Sullivan bases some meaning of signs on Sumerian symbols. May be sign of borrowings. But notice the simplified sign for horse, if simplification of symbols in time as she says is correct and if that symbol indeed is for horse, IVC-SSC are aware of horses at least since 15000 BC based on dating of symbols of horses found in caves in France.

[member_22872]

From Page 198 of her book "Indus Script Dictionary":

Va-da-la-tri-sh-nu-nu: From left to right, 'Varuna-Brahma-Indra' , three excellent to praise. Reminds me Theime's paper.

[RajeshA]

Indus Script - Diverse Views

A couple of papers by people, who are not convinced that Indus Script captured a language like Sanskrit or something similar to what is spoken today in North India.

Published in the ICFAI Journal of History and Culture, January 2011
By Sujay Rao Mandavilli
The reconfirmation and reinforcement of theIndus script thesis: A logical assessment andinquiry as to the elusive and enigmatic nature of this script


By Jeyakumar Ramasami
"New Interpretations on Indus Valley civilization"

Description:

1.This book supports the view that IVC people were from Middle -East (Iraq and Anatolia) and not of local origin.(Megalithic Farmers)

2.The Indus -sites are necropolises (burial grounds) and not megapolises as popularly imagined so far.

3.Corroborative evidences for Indus symbols are found in Jyotisha Vedanga.

4.The inscriptions on seals refer to month and date of annual death ceremony (Thithi) --it is a logo-gram. (symbols indicating "Mee"--"Vu" sound)

5.The Indus seals are deciphered.

This "book" seems to be based on weird theories that the Harappan inhabitants were from Iraq and Anatolia and not local people!

But like so many mixed up people, Jeyakumar claims the symbols are based on Jyotish Vedanga!

[RajeshA]

Indus Script

Published in Current Science, Vol 103, Issue 02, July 25, 2012, page 147
Authors: S. Srinivasan*, J. V. M. Joseph and P. Harikumar
Indus writing is multilingual: a part-syllabic system at work

Abstract
A solution to unravel the mystery behind the Indus writing and the underlying language is reported here. The binding between two phonemes present in a language can be quantified by analysing the bigrams of characters that represent them. The application of information theory to this vexed problem of deciphering Indus script leads one to discern the type of script and it turns out to be abugida type. All the vowels and consonants present in the Indus text are elucidated. The analysis shows that the language underlying the Indus text is both Dravidian and Aryan in origin and encompasses more than one language. The evolution of Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, Prakrit and Devanagari scripts is traced. It brings to light that the Indus Civilization had reached great heights in literacy.

___________________

Dravidian and Aryan? These guys need to develop a new terminology!

[member_22872]

From Necropolis theory, The guy says:

There is no evidence of mummies because the mummies crumble on exposure to light, and the grave robbers had played a significant role in robbing these mortuary temple

Yes that true, human dead bodies and mummies similar to Egypt crumble, not good for his theory, but the same crowd including our Manish ji argued that decomposition shouldn't matter that much in finding horse chariots, horse bones and wheels and since they couldn't find the remains, that only mean IVC people didn't have a knowledge of these. They don't feel bad arguing both ways.

[RajeshA]

Indus Articles in Current Science

Published in Current Science, Vol 77, Issue 01, 10 July 1999
Authors: A. S. Gaur, K. H. Vora
Ancient shorelines of Gujarat, India, during the Indus civilization (Late Mid-Holocene): A study based on archaeological evidences

Abstract
Changes in the shoreline at any point could be due to various reasons such as tectonic disturbance or shift in sedimentological regime causing erosion or deposition. Many scientific investigations, focusing on the palaeo-shoreline vis-a-vis sea level fluctuations in India, based on numerous geological techniques, have indicated that about 6000 BP, the sea level was approximately 6 m higher than at present and about 4000 years BP it stabilized at the present one with minor fluctuations.

------------------------

I don't know how relevant this info is to dating!

[peter]

[..]

Q: So why is this technicality important in AIT thread ?

A: The notion that an Indian receiving oral tradition in a traditional vedaśāla is somehow immune to sound change and corruption is wrong. [..]

But you are being selective! Where is the universality in k>sh as you claimed earlier? Example: sh>k in Sanskrit

[peter]

[..]

a) Suppose you have two linguists L1 and L2.
Both believe PIE is true.
L1 believes PIE is true and it arose in area x.
L2 believes PIE is true and it arose in area y.
Further constraint is x = !y : this means x and y cannot be true at the same time.

Now let us form a function f(PIE,x,y) = PIE . x + PIE . y
This is same as PIE.x + PIE.(!x)
This is same as PIE.

Hmmm, Fascinating. So PIE exists. But the geographic area is in dispute. That is well known. And the archaeology of the Pontic steppe has been connected with Rig Veda to put PIE in Pontic steppe.

Some linguists have argued that there are no PIE loanwords in Finno Uralic languages and PIE also does not have any loanwords from Finno Uralic. This rules out steppe as the origin of Aryans.

b) If you follow the work of Satya Mishra he pointed out (in 1970's or 80's) that Finno Uralic languages have a lot of loan words from Sanskrit. These loan words have the form of Old Indo Aryan. e.g.

In addition there exist no loan words in Vedic or Classical Sanskrit from Finno Ugric languages.

The claim that aryans at pontic steppe were in an interaction zone with finno ugric speakers to the north gets falsified because aryan tongue has no loans from finno ugric.

Since it is further known that FU speakers never lived near India then it just means that FU speakers acquired the loans from a group a emigrating aryans out of India.

Beautiful sir. Beautiful. But I have a couple of issues here.

1. The image you have posted has words like *ora, and *resma and *onke. What is the function or pronunciation of that "*"?

It means they have aggregated various Finno Uralic languages and the reconstruction of the Proto Finno Uralic would be the form with "*".

2. Uralic languages have many commonalities with Dravidian languages. How do you know they did not live in or near India? Gene wise they have some inheritance from Southeast Asia as per Wiki. Particularly, how do you know that they are loan words from people migrating from India. What happened to those people who migrated?

They did not live in India because Aryan tongue does not have any finno uralic loan words. People who migrated from India ended up in the Mittani empire, Kassites also had many Indian names and so on.

It would be an interesting exercise to figure out why people migrated out of India. Was it mahabharata that caused it? Was it the weather? Dessication of Saraswati? If you are living happily at a place why would you move?

[RajeshA]

peter ji,

delete your post with skymaps, and please take it to the GDF thread. Please do not spam here!

[RajeshA]

Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization




Published in Current Science, Volume 98, Issue 06, March 25, 2010
Authors: Kavita Gangal, M. N. Vahia, R. Adhikari
Spatio-temporal analysis of the Indus urbanization

Abstract
The greater Indus valley was home to Neolithic cultures starting from 7000 BCE. They formed the antecedents of the urban Harappan civilization, whose rise and decline are dated to 2600 BCE and 1900 BCE respectively. At its peak, the Harappan civilization covered an area of more than a million square kilometers, making it the largest urbanized civilization of the Bronze Age. In this communication, we integrate GIS information on topography and hydrology with radio-carbon and archaeological dates of 1874 sites, to analyze the spatio-temporal growth and decline of the Indus urbanization. Our analysis reveals several large-scale patterns in the growth and decline of urbanism. In the growth phase, urbanism appears to nucleate in three distinct geographical locations, situated in Baluchistan, Gujarat and the Ghaggar-Hakra valley. In the mature phase when urbanism is fully developed, the area distributing of sites follows a Zipfian power law, a feature common to modern urban agglomerations. In the decline phase, the pace of de-urbanization is nonuniform with a strong geographical variation. The decline starts in the Ghaggar-Hakra region, followed by a large-scale collapse in the lower Indus plain, leaving, however, a resilient zone in Gujarat which has a delayed decline. The patterns discerned through our analysis will find use within a Bayesian framework to test hypotheses for the growth and decline of Harappan civilization.

[RajeshA]

Indus Script

We seem to have missed this article!

Published in Current Science, Volume 103, Issue 03, August 10, 2012
Authors: S. Srinivasan, J. V. M. Joseph, P. Harikumar
Indus script deciphered: the method of semblance at work

Abstract
In this article we attempt to short-list the consonants present in the Indus script by analysing the bigrams of characters that form commutable pairs and to assign plausible phonemic values to select signs and words from the Indus text. We found semblance between all the fish-like signs that appear in the Indus writing with Kannada script. A one-to-one match among these signs helped discern the phonemic values of the characters involved. The Indus text was also found to be interlaced with numerical signs denoting higher-order numbers and fractions. A polynomial number system to the base 10 was in vogue to represent whole numbers and an hexadecimal number system employed for denoting fractional numbers. The concept of cardinal and ordinal numbers together with manipulating numbers involving addition, multiplication and exponentiation operations was known to the Indus people. It brings to light that the Indus civilization had reached great heights in numeracy. Also, indications appear that the Indus folk excelled in fine arts such as dance and music.

The medial-vowel signs in Kannada that follow the consonants always appear along the direction of the writing. This feature is also observed in the Indus text. All the Tamil and Kannada medial-vowel signs have been identified in the Indus text and plausible phonemic values assigned to select the Indus signs and words. The occurrence of both short and long medial-vowel signs for ‘e’ and ‘o’ in the Indus text unequivocally indicates that the language underlying the Indus writing belongs to the Dravidian language family.