Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 03 Oct 2012 12:50

Cant carry huge cannons because?

1. Its going to be high up in the air and therefore cannons dont work as well as a lo guy.

2. Doesnt have payload capacity.

?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Oct 2012 13:00

I am not sure Mig-27 actually was designed as CAS aircraft since it was developed and used as Tactical Strike Aircraft for conventional or nuclear strike.

Thoroughbred CAS aircraft like Su-25 or A-10 were suppose to be slow , small ,nibble and designed to take hits and survive and areas were heavily armoured ......we have quite a few pics of Su-25 engine taking bad hits and landing.

I think the Swing Wing nature of Mig-27 made it handy to be used in CAS role though they were not designed for such.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 03 Oct 2012 13:04

Recoil. Big cannons produce large recoil. If you want to carry high rate of fire gattling type 30mm cannon then you need to reinforce the airframe to withstand recoil forces and then LCA would loose its L.

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Oct 2012 13:33

The report about MiG-27's clearly states that the engines have an issue. The air frames may not have enough life left in them, to justify an upgrade involving completely new engines and all the associated avionics.

The 2 sqdrs. at Jodhpur had actually been upgraded using elements from the Jaguar upgrade.
even at that time it was reported that only 40 MiG-27s would be upgraded, while 6 squadrons of Jags give get a much more comprehensive upgrade.

Which gets me me to the next question....any updates about the Jaguar upgrade? The tender for the new engines had only Honeywell offering an engine, after Rolls Royce withdrew. If we can get a new engine with 15% extra power as is being proposed and all the other goodies being proposed in the DARIN-III upgrade, it might actually even be a good idea to produce another 36 planes or 2 squadrons worth of Jags to cover the shortfall from the Mig-27 and Mig-21 retiring. The two new Jag squadrons can be based in Kalaikunda.
With new avionics, new engines, completely new airframes and upgraded glass cockpit, they could be used for another 20 years and would also come in fairly cheaply.

Apart from this add a further order of 40 nos. of LCA MK-I, if the MK-II is not likely mature enough to enter the production phase by 2015, to keep the production line running and also to add the nos. The LCA can carry the same weapons load as a Mig-27 (about 4,000 Kgs) and can carry all kinds of PGMs.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 03 Oct 2012 15:46

CAS aircraft are armoured to their throats and hence end up being average on their TWR.

Mody ji, we have already built Jaguars to spruce up numbers and in all aspects even with upgrades these type of aircraft (what we call DPSA) are just irrelevant today and with the current crop of multi role fighters they are just a numbers booster. With quality acting as force multipler today what explains procuring jaguars just to keep the squadron strength in check?

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Oct 2012 18:34

The IAF with 15 squadrons of Su-30MKI, projected 7 squadrons of Rafael and 4 squadrons of Mig-29, will be quite strong in the air superiority domain. However, will be lacking in the ground attack role. 4 squadrons of Mig-23 BN's and 4 squadrons of Mig-27s, both dedicated ground attack aircrafts are disbanded or going to be disbanded.

With a new engine, which can give 15% extra thrust and better fuel economy, coupled with all the other upgrades detailed in the DARIN-III upgrade, the Jags can still be fairly viable and potent ground attack aircraft for use against both Pak and china.
None of the other aircrafts in the IAF will be optimized for low level flight while being fully loaded for ground attack mission.
With the latest avionics and matting with Sudarshan and Paveway-II smart bombs, the aircraft should be good asset. Besides these will cost relatively a very small amount. I don't know how much the last batch of Jaguars from HAL cost us, but I would expect a fresh batch with the above upgrades to come in at about 25 million USD, each.
Having an additional 36 aircrafts of this type wouldn't be a bad option and also would keep up the numbers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Oct 2012 21:20

biggest disadvantage of building even more Jaguars is that needs a engine change to get reasonably sharp at high level >10,000ft Cheen scenarios - leh, sikkim, AP. other than that, the darinIII upg looks good and with SFW will be good.

I would say Tejas Mk1 and MKI more building is better option - better high alt and lower wing loading esp for cheen stuff. 40 more of each would smoothly take care of the Mig27s going out.

every thought must be towards pumping iron and punishing ourself on the road with N x mile repeats and hill climbs for cheen issue. build speed, build VO2max, eliminate lactic acid efficiently.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Oct 2012 22:21

the rafale is i think meant for swing roles - depending on the requirement in theatre at the time

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Oct 2012 23:16

mody wrote:The IAF with 15 squadrons of Su-30MKI, projected 7 squadrons of Rafael and 4 squadrons of Mig-29, will be quite strong in the air superiority domain. However, will be lacking in the ground attack role.

The Rafale is an excellent strike bird. That was one of its biggest advantages over the Typhoon. It all depends on what weapons we decide to buy for it. The MKI is not bad either for strike missions. The quantity of ordnance it can carry in one mission completely dwarfs that carried by Mig-27s and Jaguars. Its radar has ground-attack modes and Litening pod integration is already done. It doesn't have any problem flying low and slow either if necessary. Only problem is IAF having to use its premier assets for mud-moving. That's why we need more LCAs to act as fillers. It can take on the short range missions along with the Jaguar leaving the big daddies to carry out missions which require longer legs.

Edit: IAF has three not four squadrons of Mig-29s. And 3 squadrons of M2ks as well, which have already demonstrated their ground attack potential during Kargil. They will get better after the upgrade and can share most of the weapons we buy for the Rafale.

The IAF has aircraft that can perform the Mig-27's role better than the Mig-27. That is not their problem. The problem is overall reduction in numbers and not having enough aircraft to adequately cover all theaters.

I tried calculating the current squadron strength and this is what I came up with:

7x MKI
3x Mig-29 (undergoing upgrades so availability might be low)
3x M2k (undergoing upgrades so availability might be low)
6x Mig-21 Bison
4xMig-27 (2 being retired)
6xJaguar (being upgraded as well)

That's just 29 squadrons counting the Mig-27s. All the other squadrons comprise Mig-21 Bis and M/MF versions. We don't know how many are still active.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 03 Oct 2012 23:55

Anyway,

ladies and gentlemen, Rafale has won the race to sport an AESA.

behold -

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-377216/

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 04 Oct 2012 00:01

The other eurocanards are far behind when it comes to AESA. This was the only one that was serious all through. In the case of the Grippen, its NG version rests on the Swiss order going through.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2012 07:36

>> 6xJaguar (being upgraded as well)

is the newly delivered 39 included in the above? I would imagine 39 = 2 sqdns.

the Mig29 and M2K will be upgraded in batches by HAL. it is very unlikely more than 4 at a time will be off the flying line and in HAL.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Oct 2012 09:38

Singha wrote:>> 6xJaguar (being upgraded as well)
is the newly delivered 39 included in the above? I would imagine 39 = 2 sqdns.
the Mig29 and M2K will be upgraded in batches by HAL. it is very unlikely more than 4 at a time will be off the flying line and in HAL.

Agreed Singha sahab... this is precisely why we had a protracted /lengthy upgrade cycle for our M2Ks which Rakshaks tore apart as not worthy... ditto for the Mig-29s...
BTB, did we order more Jags... I was not aware of 39 new deliveries... I remember a warm day in Bangalore (old HAL airport) where George Kaka presided over the induction of approx 12 spanking new Jags...haven't heard of any newer inductions since then... would be happy to get corrected.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2012 10:03

HAL has delivered 17 single seaters and 20 twin seaters with delivery completed in 2009. the Jag assembly building was then used for Hawk assembly.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Oct 2012 10:13

Singha wrote:HAL has delivered 17 single seaters and 20 twin seaters with delivery completed in 2009. the Jag assembly building was then used for Hawk assembly.

Interesting... 37 new birds means 2 SQs, they should be in the DARIN II++ configuration. Did these get the same old low powered engine or a newer engine? am waiting for these birds to get re-engined with a newer engine like the Honeywell F125IN...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2012 11:30

old engine. new engine deal is not yet signed due to sikular concerns of single vendor situation.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 04 Oct 2012 11:50

Shrinivasan wrote:
Singha wrote:HAL has delivered 17 single seaters and 20 twin seaters with delivery completed in 2009. the Jag assembly building was then used for Hawk assembly.
Interesting... 37 new birds means 2 SQs, they should be in the DARIN II++ configuration. Did these get the same old low powered engine or a newer engine? am waiting for these birds to get re-engined with a newer engine like the Honeywell F125IN...

My understanding is that including all birds, Jaguars are 6 squadrons. The trainers may be additional.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Oct 2012 15:43

The reason I am advocating going for 2 more squadrons of Jags is that no other aircraft in IAF inventory is optimised for Lo-Lo-Lo flight profile with a full combat load.

If we are going to sign a deal for a new engine, then along with the DARIN-III upgrade, it would be worthwhile to add 2 squadrons of fresh airframes. HOpefully the new engines can improve the high altitude performance of the Jags. In that case new Jags with a new Terrain following radar, operating in in the mountains would be really valuable.
The above should be done, only in case of new engines being opted for and if the price for the new Jags from HAL, can be contained upto $25 million.

The Rafael, M2K and Su-30MKI can all do a lot of the stuff that the Jags can do. But all them cost a lot more and would be required for establishing air superiority over the theater and perhaps hitting more high value strategic targets, which are ideally targeted using precision guided ammunition, from a high altitude.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 05 Oct 2012 00:06

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 16700.html

Jaguar modernisation to push service life beyond 2030

The Indian Air Force(IAF) has lit the afterburners to make its Jaguars fighting fit for modern warfare and increase their service life.

The Jaguars, the only aircraft with the IAF capable of carrying nuclear weapons other than the Mirage-2000s, are being fitted with autopilots, next-generation avionics and lethal armaments under an ambitious modernisation programme that will see the fighters flying well after 2030.

Nearly 120 Jaguars are being modernised.

So far, the IAF has procured autopilots for 55 Jaguars and talks for 95 more, which includes spare autopilots, are underway, according to information shared by the government in Parliament.

The upgradation of the Ambala-based fighter jets, in service for more than four decades, is being carried out by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL) at a cost of more than Rs 3,000 crore. The IAF feels the Jaguars, powered by Rolls Royce Adour-811 turbofan engines, are underpowered, and wants a more powerful engine for the fighters.

But its hunt for a new powerplant has not been easy. In 2010, its bid for more than 250 turbofans for the Jaguars could not take off as one of the contenders - Rolls Royce, which offered its upgraded Adour MK-821 engine- backed out leaving only Honeywell's F124IN engine in the fray.

The Indian government prefers to avoid single-vendor bids in military acquisitions.

The Jaguar's cockpit is going to completely transform. It's going to turn all glass. There will be digital MFDs(multifunction displays) replacing the traditional analog gauges and dials, and pilots will have fly-by-wire controls.

Autopilots would lessen pilot workload, freeing them from physically flying the jet during long flights though, in an ultimate test of IAF top guns, six Jaguars flew all the way to Alaska for a joint exercise with the US Air Force in 2004.

The government is also reviving a plan to re-engine the aircraft with a more powerful powerplant.

The article says Jaguar is only the second aircraft with India capable of carrying nuclear weapons. I know Mirage 2K is the other one. Is not our Su-30MKI designed to deliver Nuclear Weapons?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Oct 2012 01:22

The article says Jaguar is only the second aircraft with India capable of carrying nuclear weapons. I know Mirage 2K is the other one. Is not our Su-30MKI designed to deliver Nuclear Weapons?

I think the upcoming batch of Super Sukhois might be used for that role.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Oct 2012 01:48

Singha wrote:>> 6xJaguar (being upgraded as well)

is the newly delivered 39 included in the above? I would imagine 39 = 2 sqdns.

When were the last Jaguars delivered. I think the 6 squadrons are including all aircraft manufactured by HAL. Some of the older aircraft may have been replaced by the freshly built ones.

the Mig29 and M2K will be upgraded in batches by HAL. it is very unlikely more than 4 at a time will be off the flying line and in HAL.

Perhaps you are right. The upgrade process may not impact availability all that much. But still 29 squadrons means that the IAF is significantly understrength. And is likely to remain so for quite some time. The IAF already said that the all 27s would be gone by 2017. The Bisons do not have too many years left in them either. So any new MKI's, Rafales and LCAs that might be inducted would be just about making up for the retirements. The LCA and Rafale production rate will be low for the first few years.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Oct 2012 02:23

mody wrote:The reason I am advocating going for 2 more squadrons of Jags is that no other aircraft in IAF inventory is optimised for Lo-Lo-Lo flight profile with a full combat load.

A stable weapons platform at low altitudes was necessary when the payload was primarily unguided. Aside from the fact that fighters like the Rafale and EF are nearly as stable with their FBW capable of auto-correcting flight to a high degree of precision without any pilot input, the reality is that future warfare will almost certainly involve exclusive employment of smart munitions, whether the mission is air interdiction, CAS or deep strike. For that matter even the A-10 and Su-25 are not going to be replaced once they expend their service life. With the proliferation of MANPADS globally, its always safer to strike from stand-off ranges.

If we are going to sign a deal for a new engine, then along with the DARIN-III upgrade, it would be worthwhile to add 2 squadrons of fresh airframes. HOpefully the new engines can improve the high altitude performance of the Jags. In that case new Jags with a new Terrain following radar, operating in in the mountains would be really valuable.
The above should be done, only in case of new engines being opted for and if the price for the new Jags from HAL, can be contained upto $25 million.

The Jaguars have been out of production for nearly a decade now. Its probably unviable to restart production in terms of both time and money. The best alternative to bolster numbers remains the HAL Tejas, and reducing the time taken from the first flight of the Mk2 variant to full rate of production needs to be a priority.

In the interim if additional aircraft simply must be inducted, Mirages from Qatar and the UAE are the IAF's best bet. They have enough service life left to fly past 2025, they're a lot cheaper than a new build aircraft and still modern enough to hold their own against most foes. An ideal stop-gap acquisition.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Oct 2012 03:42

The Brits a/c are always under powered.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Oct 2012 06:10

Viv S wrote: The Jaguars have been out of production for nearly a decade now. Its probably unviable to restart production in terms of both time and money. The best alternative to bolster numbers remains the HAL Tejas, and reducing the time taken from the first flight of the Mk2 variant to full rate of production needs to be a priority.

I don't agree with your point, as late as 2009, HAL delivered Jags to IAF, they have been undergoing upgrades in one form of another... coupled with the re-engine initiative, building couple of SQs would not be a tall order for HAL... the only problem is... HAL has its hands full.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Oct 2012 06:40

reality is that future warfare will almost certainly involve exclusive employment of smart munitions

kind of like when they predicted future of air to air engagements will be all missiles

smart munitions are expensive and barring khan no one else has them in numbers or can afford it in numbers

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 05 Oct 2012 07:00

Jaguar manufacture has been stopped, so are we getting fleeced.
Remember the recent attack on Afghan air base the Jagaurs were lost and the article clearly said lines are closed and can't get spares, are they buying used parts for upgrades. Electronics might be first hand but what about other hardware?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Oct 2012 07:15

pentaiah wrote:Jaguar manufacture has been stopped, so are we getting fleeced.
Remember the recent attack on Afghan air base the Jagaurs were lost and the article clearly said lines are closed and can't get spares, are they buying used parts for upgrades. Electronics might be first hand but what about other hardware?

in the recent attack in Afghanistan, Harriers were lost... their manufacture has been stopped in the UK... other than the engine, most items in a Jaguar are made / sourced by HAL, so I don't see a big problem in HAL building more of these... ACIG.com and few other sites have extensively researched and reported HAL's Jaguar upgrade and manufacturing track record.

mody · Post by **mody** » 05 Oct 2012 14:29

The last Jags were delivered by HAL in 2009. The production in UK and France was stopped a long time ago, however, we do not depend on that. The main item we source is the engine, which we want to replace anyways.

The Jag line at HAL was converted to assembling Hawks, post 2009. However, if we want to produce a couple of squadrons or about 36 planes, should not be too difficult for HAL, considering that this will happen in parallel with the DARIN-III upgrade program for the existing fleet.

The jags with the DARIN-III upgrade can also be used in the wild weasel kinda role. The upgrade specs clearly show that the planes will be armed with Anti-Radar missiles as well, along with a host of EW suites.

The main point is that with the DARIN-III upgrade and new more powerful and at the same time lighter engine, the upgraded Jag will be a good enough platform to have upto 2025-2030. If this is true, then why not produce a few more to make up the nos., if we can get the new ones for about 25 Million a piece.
Training and ground based infrastructure for these planes already exists and nothing more would be required.

-JMT

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Oct 2012 15:10

Shiv Aroor of Headlines Today tweets: Quote Of The Day: "If we had used air power in 1962, the result of the war would've been very different." ~ IAF chief NAK Browne.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Oct 2012 15:23

It's Official: IAF Chooses Apache

IAF chief NAK Browne has confirmed today that the service had chosen the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow Block III as its next attack helicopter.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Oct 2012 16:54

Oh no

Someone please check on Philip saar

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2012 17:31

^^^

Don't understand why we are paying for this machine. When the LCH is coming along nicely.

Everyone, please spare me the contrived distinction of heavy and light. Simply because, the enemy in times of war will not line up his assets to be decimated by a heavy machine. Or with a light machine for that matter.

Will · Post by **Will** » 05 Oct 2012 17:31

Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt this a single vendor situation again with the Mi28 being out of it. How come this single vendor business doesnt affect Americian products while where all other countries are concerned the item is retendered if there is only a single vendor left in the fray? Not that the Apache is the wrong choice it being probably the most advanced copter out there. But why cant the govt go the same route instead for other products instead of cancelling tenders for flimsy reasons like a 'single vendor situation"!!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2012 17:33

^^^

IIRC, The Mi 28 was a part of the race and was eliminated on technical grounds. The current news is more in terms of reafferming that decision.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Oct 2012 17:40

I think the benefit of having Apaches are a sensor fit that we currently lack. It will be the helicopter equivalent of a Su30 with a big powerful radar networked to other helicopters. The Apache should provide targetting guidance to our helicopters. It will also be capable of launching Hellfire missiles. India will have about 200 LCH with 22 odd Apaches of which only 12 will have the Longbow radar.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Oct 2012 17:51

Isn't it true that the Longbow III which we are ordering are latest version which have not been delivered to US forces.

Combined with the C-17 deal and other civilian deals, we seem to one Boeings most important international customers.

That is excludign the USD 29 Billion Saudi deal for F-15E's

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Oct 2012 18:15

all I see is a H&D contest with IAF attempting to occupy the high ground after losing out the Rudra ownership to army aviation corps by DefMin decision.

I hardly see it as likely that these golden goose apaches will operate in organic mixed mode with Rudra squadrons operated by the army. unless you embed and train organically day by day, whats the use of air dropping a Pele or messi into a team they never play with. FC Barcelona work like a machine because a lot them have played together since the age of 14 !!

if you want targeting info invest in a GMTI solution mounted into the same EMB145 CABS is doing for AEW. reuse the internal operator seating and monitors and change the radar. far better and longer ranged than a pencil beam longbow. this will scan out to 300km and track 1000s of objects in all weather, feeding it via network to waiting Rudra units in the FARPs.

I hope the IA goes ALL OUT on the Rudra continues to invest in it and gets itself a fleet of 100s.

apache can continue to impress in republic day parades and winter exercises hmph.

Will · Post by **Will** » 05 Oct 2012 19:16

Pratyush wrote:^^^

IIRC, The Mi 28 was a part of the race and was eliminated on technical grounds. The current news is more in terms of reafferming that decision.

Yea. But havent deals been cancelled before where only a single vendor has been left cause the other vendors didnt make the cut. The towed howitzer tender being a case in point, where only the BAE gun was left in the fray at the end of the trials. The whole tender was scrapped instead of the BAE gun being selected.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Oct 2012 19:36

First Combat Drill With Tejas In 3 Months

India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas will be put to play in its first ever combat exercise in February 2013. The IAF's Iron Fist exercise over Rajasthan's Pokhran range will see a pair of Tejas limited series production fighters fly, drop bombs and perhaps fire weapons alongside IAF Su-30s, Mirage-2000s and MiG-21s. The type is scheduled to achieve the second phase of its troubled initial operational clearance (IOC-2) by September 2013.

In separate information made available today by the IAF chief, the air force's four MiG-27 squadrons will be retired by 2016-17, while two MiG-21 Type 96 squadrons currently committed to fast jet training will revert to full operational duties next year as the BAE Hawk fleet fully integrates with the IAF lead-in training syllabus. By 2020, the upgraded MiG-29 Fulcrum will be the only MiG series aircraft left in IAF service (the Indian Navy will operate its MiG-29Ks well beyond 2020).

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Oct 2012 19:38

nakul wrote:It's Official: IAF Chooses Apache

IAF chief NAK Browne has confirmed today that the service had chosen the Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow Block III as its next attack helicopter.

IAF getting 22 Apache helicopters: Browne

"Yes, Apache is final now," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said here when asked if the IAF was procuring the American choppers in a 1.4 billion dollar deal.

"We are going to contract for Apache and these will be paid for by the IAF, flown by the IAF and maintained by the IAF," Browne said.