Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 17:12

A_Gupta wrote:Itihaas == History is a modern usage.

Itihaas has many purposes, but one can't doubt that it is also history, in the sense of "a recount of the unfolding of past events".

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2012 17:18

Anand K wrote:What is the actual purpose of the Vedas..... if the meaning and methodology is highly complex.
I mean, we didn't have Gods who demanded obedience and sacrifices and prayers all the time or a book that says "this is all you need". Also, is there an explicit contract between the powers and man saying "pour some ghee everyday into the fire for the shiny things in the sky and we will give you rain" like in semitic faiths? (Well, it is true that there are "exceptions" like Vedic marriage ceremony where you have to defeat/weasel out of 3 Gods who own the maiden..... or a rather menacing Lord Varuna who can cast you into the House of Clay. But this is not the prevalent theme right?).

The difference between Semetic faiths and Vedas is that the way the Vedas were conceived and studied in a secular fashion rather than in an exclusivist manner.

What this means is that the Vedas were regarded almost like the Laws of Physics (closest analogy to the scientific generation). They are meant to be insights into the workings of the Universe. The Mantra parts of the Vedas were also regarded as something akin to Forces In Physics themselves - ie they had the capacity to effect certain changes to elements of the Universe. Hence the rituals...so there were rituals for victory, long life and other ends - but the key point to remember is that unlike Semetic religions these rituals don't need belief in any particular Prophet, and in fact in the case of the Mimamsaks - don't need belief in any kind of God.

Its also Universal Heritage - in the sense that anybody anywhere in the world can benefit from these same Laws and Forces supposedly intrinsic in the Vedas.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Oct 2012 17:27

In former days, having placed the four Vedas on one side and the Bharata on the other, these were weighed in the balance by the celestials assembled for that purpose. And as the latter weighed heavier than the four Vedas with their mysteries, from that period it hath been called in the world Mahabharata (the great Bharata). Being esteemed superior both in substance and gravity of import it is denominated Mahabharata on account of such substance and gravity of import. He that knoweth its meaning is saved from all his sins.

The above is not a property of a history.

Disregard the use of the english word "history" below; the properties attributed are not properties of history.

'O Saunaka, this best of narrations called Bharata which has begun to be repeated at thy sacrifice, was formerly repeated at the sacrifice of Janamejaya by an intelligent disciple of Vyasa. It is divided into several sections; in the beginning are Paushya, Pauloma, and Astika parvas, describing in full the valour and renown of kings. It is a work whose description, diction, and sense are varied and wonderful. It contains an account of various manners and rites. It is accepted by the wise, as the state called Vairagya is by men desirous of final release. As Self among things to be known, as life among things that are dear, so is this history that furnisheth the means of arriving at the knowledge of Brahma the first among all the sastras. There is not a story current in this world but doth depend upon this history even as the body upon the foot that it taketh. As masters of good lineage are ever attended upon by servants desirous of preferment so is the Bharata cherished by all poets. As the words constituting the several branches of knowledge appertaining to the world and the Veda display only vowels and consonants, so this excellent history displayeth only the highest wisdom.

Sauti continued, "Eighteen Akshauhinis of troops came together for battle. The encounter that ensued was terrible and lasted for eighteen days. He who knows the four Vedas with all the Angas and Upanishads, but does not know this history (Bharata), cannot be regarded as wise. Vyasa of immeasurable intelligence, has spoken of the Mahabharata as a treatise on Artha, on Dharma, and on Kama. Those who have listened to his history can never bear to listen to others, as, indeed, they who have listened to the sweet voice of the male Kokila can never hear the dissonance of the crow's cawing. As the formation of the three worlds proceedeth from the five elements, so do the inspirations of all poets proceed from this excellent composition. O ye Brahman, as the four kinds of creatures (viviparous, oviparous, born of hot moisture and vegetables) are dependent on space for their existence, so the Puranas depend upon this history. As all the senses depend for their exercise upon the various modifications of the mind, so do all acts (ceremonials) and moral qualities depend upon this treatise. There is not a story current in the world but doth depend on this history, even as body upon the food it taketh. All poets cherish the Bharata even as servants desirous of preferment always attend upon masters of good lineage. Even as the blessed domestic Asrama can never be surpassed by the three other Asramas (modes of life) so no poets can surpass this poem.

It is a treatise on Artha, Dharma, Kama, it is the poem superlative, it is itihaas; it is not history except in a very general sense.

What is history?

History is the analysis and interpretation of the human past that enables us to study continuity and change over time.. It is an act of both investigation and imagination that seeks to explain how people have changed over time. Historians use all forms of evidence to examine, interpret, revisit, and reinterpret the past. These include not just written documents, but also oral communication and objects such as buildings, artifacts, photographs, and paintings. Historians are trained in the methods of discovering and evaluating these sources, and the challenging task of making historical sense out of them. Nevertheless, historians do not always agree on interpretations of the past. The debated differences help expand and enhance our understanding of human development.

In particular, if you want MbH to be history, you will have to answer how much Vyasa might have modified the events to make it comply with his intent of it being a treatise on Artha, Dharma, Kama.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 18:01

A_Gupta wrote:In particular, if you want MbH to be history, you will have to answer how much Vyasa might have modified the events to make it comply with his intent of it being a treatise on Artha, Dharma, Kama.

It is not about events needing to "comply" with the philosophy of Artha, Dharma and Kama. It is about observing and evaluating how each historical personality acted based on their Gunas and these Purusharthas, and then writing down the events in which these historical personalities played their roles, and in the end how the results could be interpreted as a reflection of the fruits of their earned Karma.

Sure embellishments are used, perhaps to also convey coded knowledge or for other purposes, but basically with the events themselves, Vyasa has not tempered with.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2012 18:04

I think we are getting into a point where a decision needs to be taken to bring back sanity to the thread.

Witzel first made the argument that one can derive a certain internal chronology of the Mandalas of the RV - then connected this chronology with geographical names and thus came out with a 'proof' for west-to-east movement of the RV tribes.

Talageri, in order to refute Witzel, started with the same assumptions as Witzel - and showed that Witzel was wrong and that the data pointed to an east-to-west movement of the RV tribes.

So, Talageri has proved that under the assumption of internal chronology of Mandalas and correctness of geographical place names - Witzel was wrong ! And instead of winning an award or getting recognition from the folks on this thread, he gets to be called names like 'buffoon' and 'quack' !!??????

I am absolutely appalled that folks on BR apparently have sufficient IQ to be able to understand that IF the US, China have nuclear weapons then India ought to develop the same, even though these weapons in themselves are morally wrong - but are moronic enough not be understand what is going on out here !? As long as Witzel does not take back his proof of west-to-east movement based on the same assumptions - very obviously Talageri deserves full support in his argument that he has PROVEN THE OPPOSITE with the same starting assumptions as Witzel. If Witzel is prepared to take back his assumptions - then we are all happy to drop support for Talageri as well. Why is this simple fact not getting through the heads of folks out here ?

I fear this mud-slinging is becoming very asymmetric. Talageri can freely be called a 'buffoon' but rules of this forum disallow me from calling out the morons frequenting this thread !

Rajesh ji - I do think the time has come to agree on a stance and then all subsequent discussion on the matter to be in the pre-agreed inter-OIT debate thread of GDF.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 18:21

Arjun wrote:Rajesh ji - I do think the time has come to agree on a stance and then all subsequent discussion on the matter to be in the pre-agreed inter-OIT debate thread of GDF.

Arjun ji,

I have to agree with you!

I think there has been sufficient discussion on the nature of the Vedas and our other scriptures. The starting premise of this thread is that there is historical knowledge in our texts, which can help us correct the AIT narrative as propagated by the West and supported by "establishment historians" (more like AIT-Sepoys) in India.

If someone wishes to discuss the nature of the scriptures, their historicity, one is welcome to discuss so in the "Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas" Thread or elsewhere.

There is only so far one can venture into meta-discussions about the starting premise itself.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2012 18:23

Extract from Talageri's book, that clearly spells out how he is only responding to the same assumptions that Witzel has made:

And here we come to the crux of Witzel’s endeavour: Witzel’s main purpose in analysing the Rigveda is to reconstruct a chronological and geographical framework out of the data in the Rigveda, which will corroborate his theory of the migration of Aryans from Afghanistan into the Punjab.

And the chronological and geographical picture he reconstructs from this data places the six Family MaNDalas in the following order: II, IV, V, VI, III, VII. Among the non-family MaNDalas, he counts MaNDala VIII among the early MaNDalas, probably after MaNDala IV or MaNDala VI, but definitely before MaNDalas III and VII.

According to him, MaNDala II, which he refers to repeatedly as “the old book 2”42 is the oldest MaNDala in the Rigveda. This MaNDala “focuses on the Northwest, in the mountains and in the passes leading into South Asia from Afghanistan.”43 During this period, the Vedic Aryans were still “fighting their way through the NW mountains passes”44, and had not yet entered India proper.

The subsequent MaNDalas record “the story of the immigration: the initial stages (beginning with their stay still on the western side of the Sindhu) in books 4, 5, 6 and 8, and the final stage ( including the defection of the PUrus and the victory of the Bharatas in the battle of the ten kings) in books 3 and 7.”45

MaNDala IV, which Witzel refers to as “the comparatively old book 4”,46 represents the commencement of their movement into India, but “still places the Bharatas on the far western side of the Sindhu.”47

Witzel’s geographical picture of the Rigveda, with the MaNDalas arranged in his chronological order, is as tabulated in the chart on the next page.

Witzel thus concludes that he has established the immigration of the Aryans into India on the basis of an analysis of the Rigveda.

We will now proceed to examine his analysis and his conclusions.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Oct 2012 18:37

RajeshA wrote:Sure embellishments are used, perhaps to also convey coded knowledge or for other purposes, but basically with the events themselves, Vyasa has not tempered with.

We know this how? Anyway, enough said. If you can find a key which tells you what were actual events, what were embellishments; and in particular just **why** (apart from being primitive, superstitious, gullible, etc.) various beyond-natural things are included, you will have provided a good means of understanding the past India and its culture. In particular, how are some of the more science-fictiony things seen to be compatible with Sat(ya)?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 18:56

A_Gupta wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Sure embellishments are used, perhaps to also convey coded knowledge or for other purposes, but basically with the events themselves, Vyasa has not tempered with.
We know this how? Anyway, enough said. If you can find a key which tells you what were actual events, what were embellishments; and in particular just **why** (apart from being primitive, superstitious, gullible, etc.) various beyond-natural things are included, you will have provided a good means of understanding the past India and its culture. In particular, how are some of the more science-fictiony things seen to be compatible with Sat(ya)?

A_Gupta ji,

I proposed in an earlier post that all those aspects of our texts which seem incredible or magical from the viewpoint of serious science, can be labelled as "to be considered as a literary embellishment according to the current stand of scholarly opinion and research" and to proceed to analyze the rest from various angles - literary, historical, dharmic teaching-aid, etc. One can also say, that "the explanation cannot be correctly understood by the current stand of scholarly opinion and research".

The formulation prefers to not take a stand as to whether something is satya or asatya. May be at some point of time one discovers the true reason for something to have been included in the text or develops a good theory. Until then one can thus avoid needless distraction through controversy.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2012 19:02

Some folks are not able to resolve the contradiction of believing in different hypotheses for different parts of their lives.

But actually the Hindu mind has traditionally been able to resolve these quite easily - hence the phenomenon of the same person being in 'suit-boot' Western attire in the office, and in more traditional Indian dress at home.

Historicity is an assumption that is required in order to come up with effective arguments in the field of history - but for one's private spheres of activity (such as worship) it is not required to believe in the same hypothesis at all.

member_23700 · Post by **member_23700** » 05 Oct 2012 19:44

Arjun wrote:Some folks are not able to resolve the contradiction of believing in different hypotheses for different parts of their lives.

But actually the Hindu mind has traditionally been able to resolve these quite easily - hence the phenomenon of the same person being in 'suit-boot' Western attire in the office, and in more traditional Indian dress at home.

Historicity is an assumption that is required in order to come up with effective arguments in the field of history - but for one's private spheres of activity (such as worship) it is not required to believe in the same hypothesis at all.

That proves 'Hindu' mind being scientific, stochastic and also empirical. Analogies to empirical or physical laws may help to illustrate the point...

(1) To know about pressures, forces, velocity, turbulance,etc. of water flowing in pipe ......one equation is used when flow is laminar, another durign transition (with assumptions and correction factors) and then purely empirical correlations when flow becomes turbulant (based on Reynold's number)

(2) Epicycles of Ptolemy or more accurate and versatile pulsating epicycles (latter based on much older....older to Greek/Egyptian/ptolemic astronomy) of Surya Siddhanta for daily ritual/astrology purposes, Newton's laws for finding new planets and Einstein's general relativity for traveling to Brahmaloka.

Back to MBH Itihas...

Given a data point (observation/reference/description..e.g. from MBH Text) X-ij, it can be split into,

X-ij ====> X-i (within group contribution) + X-j (between group contribution) + Epsilon-ij

MBH observation====> its relevance to MBH story + its relevance to rest of Indic literature/historical narrative + extraneous/not understood aspects of past (error in language of statistics aka noise)

(Poverty of Historicism by Popper is good read for those interested. No, he does not mention points and analogies made above. What I wrote above were divine inspiration I received this morning)

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 20:45

A Glossary of Useful Terms

AIT-Nazi: A Western academic, writer or ideologue, who hides his white racism through historical fabrications, and tries to argue that the source of the obvious Indo-European linguistic and cultural influence on the Western civilization cannot be India, but has to be a race of whites who migrated to Europe, but through this construct is willing to go to extremes to deny Indians their historical and cultural heritage.

AIT-Sepoy: An Indian who knowingly promotes the AIT-Nazi narrative about Indian history for ideological reasons. AIT-Sepoys come in all flavors - Macaulayites, Marxists, Pseudo-Seculars, Islamists, etc.

PIE-Charlatan: Also called AIT-Linguist. A Western academic, usually linguist or philologist, who espouses the correctness of the fraudulent Indo-European Language tree. They try to give credence to a hypothetical Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language, which is supposed to be the parent language of Sanskrit and all other Indo-European languages, and is usually placed as having its origins outside India. This is done so they can claim having a linguistic origin independent of India. These PIE-Charlatans demote Sanskrit and give the language a false parent, rewrite the history of evolution of Sanskrit according to their own whims, and go to extremes to build up their linguistic case. The AIT-Philologist is also often active in creating fictional pantheons of Aryan gods with names derived from PIE rules.

European Age of Cultural Loot and Academic Racism: This refers to the time period between 1784 and 1947, when the Europeans primarily British and Germans started to systematically plunder the cultural treasures of the world, collecting these in private collections and museums in Europe. Further scholars in Britain and other European countries started to study other cultures and to produce literature analyzing the culture of other countries. A systematic effort was undertaken to show European culture as superior and to show native cultures of other people as inferior. Motivation for this was often racism and the drive to proselytize other people to Christianity. This led to much destruction of other cultures.

Establishment Historian: These are historians active in various academic institutions in India, who have been giving legitimacy to Western narratives of Indian Civilization and History by presenting the Indian face to the undertaking. They receive generous support from academic institutions in the West as well as from the Indian Establishment Order, which has an existential stake in deracinating generations of Indians.

Anglo-Brahmin: These are actually Anglophile Indian Elites who have a vested interest in keeping English as the official language of India as well as the reigning language medium for education, business and culture. They are being called Anglo-Brahmins, because often they use regional-chauvinism and anti-Brahmanism as a plank to secure the position of English in India.

Macaulayite Dhimmi: These are Indians who have been the product of Macaulayite education which readily accept the narrative and are not willing to listen to the Indic national PoV. They readily consider the opinion of Western and Indian Establishment historians as superior than the Indic traditional view.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Oct 2012 20:55

Rajesh ji,
European Age of Cultural Loot and Academic Racism: Has color of AIT, why not AIT-Academic Imperialists and Imperialism?
Added later:
it is still an open issue. There is no acknowledgment of Indian accomplishments and contributions to science and mathematics.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 21:05

venug ji,

there is a approval across the whole of Europe for the cultural loot and all these looters were called "explorers" and "scholars"! That is why one needs to stamp all Europeans with this label to make all of them rethink this issue. Secondly Europe likes to name their ages as Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightenment, etc. Therefore the naming should occur in the same spirit. Thirdly Imperialism is an old label and has in fact stopped catching the attention.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Oct 2012 21:09

More data to chew on in due course. I am looking at non AIT descriptions of Zoroastrianism

Here is Plutarch - a 50 AD "Historian"
Oromazes is clearly Ahura Mazda. Areimanius must be Angra Mainyu.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... is*/C.html

The great majority and the wisest of men hold this opinion: they believe that there are two gods, rivals as it were, the one the Artificer of good and the other of evil. There are also those who call the better one a god and the other a daemon, eas, for example, p113Zoroaster264 the sage,265 who, they record, lived five thousand years before the time of the Trojan War. He called the one Oromazes and the other Areimanius;266 and he further declared that among all the things perceptible to the senses, Oromazes may best be compared to light, and Areimanius, conversely, to darkness and ignorance, and midway between the two is Mithras: for this reason the Persians give to Mithras the name of "Mediator." Zoroaster has also taught that men should make votive offerings and thank-offerings to Oromazes, and averting and mourning offerings to Areimanius. They pound up in a mortar a certain plant called omomi at the same time invoking Hades267 and Darkness; then they mix it with the blood of a wolf that has been sacrificed, and carry it out and cast it into a place where the sun never shines. fIn fact, they believe that some of the plants belong to the good god and others to the evil daemon; so also of the animals they think that dogs, fowls, and hedgehogs, for example, belong to the good god, but that water-rats268 belong to the evil one; therefore the man who has killed the most of these they hold to be fortunate.

47 1 However, they also tell many fabulous stories about their gods, such, for example, as the following: Oromazes, born from the purest light, and Areimanius, born from the darkness, are constantly at war with each other; 370and Oromazes created six gods, the first of Good Thought, the second of Truth, the third of Order, and, of the rest, one of Wisdom, one of Wealth, p115and one the Artificer of Pleasure in what is Honourable. But Areimanius created rivals, as it were, equal to these in number. Then Oromazes enlarged himself to thrice his former size, and removed himself as far distant from the Sun as the Sun is distant from the Earth, and adorned the heavens with stars. One star he set there before all others as a guardian and watchman, the Dog-star. Twenty-four other gods he created and placed in an egg. bBut those created by Areimanius, who were equal in number to the others, pierced through the egg and made their way inside;269 hence evils are now combined with good. But a destined time shall come when it is decreed that Areimanius, engaged in bringing on pestilence and famine, shall by these be utterly annihilated and shall disappear; and then shall the earth become a level plain, and there shall be one manner of life and one form of government for a blessed people who shall all speak one tongue. Theopompus270 says that, according to the sages, one god is to overpower, and the other to be overpowered, each in turn for the space of three thousand years, and afterward for another three thousand years they shall fight and war, and the one shall undo the works of the other, cand finally Hades shall pass away; then shall the people be happy, and neither shall they need to have food nor shall they cast any shadow. And the god, who has contrived to bring about all these things, shall then have quiet and shall repose for a time,271 no long time indeed, but for the god as much as would be a moderate time for a man to sleep.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Oct 2012 21:11

A talk by Khurshed Batliwala, director of World Alliance for Youth Empowerment at Ruia College, Mumbai.

With a post graduate in Mathematics from the Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay, Khurshed Batliwala, or Bawa as he is fondly known (a nick name that has stuck from his IIT days) is an extraordinary personality.

_________

First 16 minutes are relevant for this thread.

Nilesh Oak ji,

there is a mention of Arundhati-Vashishta stars in the video ~4:30. Perhaps you can comment.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Oct 2012 21:17

Wiki on Angra Mainyu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daeva

In Vendidad 10.9 and 19.43, three divinities of the Vedic pantheon follow Angra Mainyu in a list of demons. Completely adapted to Iranian phonology, these are Indra (Vedic Indra), Sarva (Vedic Sarva (Shiva), and Nanghaithya (Vedic Nasatya). The process by which these three came to appear in the Avesta is uncertain. Together with three other daevas, Tauru, Zairi and Nasu, that do not have Vedic equivalents, the six oppose the six Amesha Spentas.

The statement that "How Vedic deities came into the Venidad is unclear" only means that the people who are saying that are not willing to look at all possible explanations are are leaving some out because it does not suit their worldview.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 05 Oct 2012 22:37

RajeshA wrote: Nilesh Oak ji,

there is a mention of Arundhati-Vashishta stars in the video ~4:30. Perhaps you can comment.

All my Mumbai based parashi (persian) friends are affectionately called 'Bawa'.

Let's begin at 3:15 (video)
Antares (Jyeshtha) is not only one of the biggest star but also one of the oldest (red giant) and in that sense ...Jyeshtha...bigger/elder.

While I don't want this discussion to fall into mapping on Ancient Indian knowlege against modern science ( A risk pointed out by Rajiv Malhotra). Of course it is a risk only because 'science' is still seen as 'western science'....because we let it be seen that way...thanks to Macaulayite Dhimmi in us.

I do want to mention another similar observation.. Nakshatra Mula (in the area of Zodiac -Scorpio).. not far from Antares(Jyeshtha)...they are adjacent. Modern astronomy evidence points towards this region (region of Mula...and thus may be Jyeshtha)towards the origin of Big Bang. Mula = root=origin, etc.

Now 4:30 (AV)

Bawa has good sense of humor and he brings it even to this observation and its context.

Vasistha is a double star and so is Arundhati. Thus 4 star system.. and if we magnify further.. more surprises might be waiting. What he says about typical double star vs. AV complex is not technically 100% correct, but good enough for Ruia audience. Isn't that true of all ...dhrama, karma, kama, public speaking, imparting knowlege, teaching....as Krishna/Bhishma say.. rules of Dharma are subtle..and so are rules of public speaking.

How two bodies may appear to rotate around each other depends on multiple factors.. but key factors being their relative masses and distance between them. Thus Sun and Earth are rotating around each other.. in fact a balanced point between their centers...it just that Sun is so big, this balanced point happens to be inside the Sun. Same is true for Earth-Moon combination.. i .e. both of them are rotating around this balanced point.. it so happend that based on their relative masses and distance.. inside the earth.... so it appears moon is rotating around earth and earth is rotating around the Sun. If one finds this trivial and too simple, add third celestial body of your choice and begin writing papers in peer-reviewed journals. All you have to do is learn comlex math, perturbation theory and fourier transform.

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 05 Oct 2012 23:20

RajeshA wrote:If my family tradition passes me a family tree account going back thousands of years, I will not be tearing it up and saying it was bogus anyway and that I have no clue who my ancestor was in 500 BCE. I'll gladly take it and thank those who maintained it!

You are putting words into my mouth that are not there. I did not say "tear it up and throw it away". You must understand the extent of its validity. If in your family history you start to see names like "Indra" or "Varuna" or "Vamadeva" or "Vishvamitra", then I hope you will have the good sense to take it with a dose of salt and not use it for any substantive discussions.

Similar things occur in many places in the "Vedic" corpus. For example, check the guru parampara given in the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad before the discussion of madhu-vidya ("honey-doctrine"). It is significant because the Ashvins show up *in the middle*. It is stated that the Ashvins (Rgvedic deities) got the madhuvidya from one rishi named Dadhyach Atharvana. Then the line of teachers continues further back finally ending at the expected "Brahma". The point is that the relationship between the two words "devata" and "rishi" was something of a totally different nature/level than the commonly assumed "composer and deity" relationship.

I already said Anukramanis have a certain value in understanding the time at which the Vedas were formally rearranged. I also posted a detailed study which - ignore the AIT-related stuff in it - presents a very interesting correlation between the Anukramanis and the gotra-pravara system.

KL

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 05 Oct 2012 23:37

Arjun wrote:One reason why Indians take to English like ducks to the water is because it is ultimately derived from Sanskrit.....

The ONLY reason, why Indians take to English is as Artha in todays world is associated with the English language. Nothing else. Do you know, how many American schools have now started to offer Chinese in their schools? Going into the merits of this decision of a free India to continue to use English, would be OT. Something, to pursue in the deracination thread.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 05 Oct 2012 23:43

A_Gupta wrote:In particular, how are some of the more science-fictiony things seen to be compatible with Sat(ya)?

This is a question that has bothered me for about 3 decades now and it is bothering my progeny too. The best I can come up with, these were tools. Tools to convey a message to mass audiences. Tools that were and are very successful even today. However, these tools need modification and adjustments for various era and audiences. That is why I had a seemingly innocent question in the deracination thread on the lines of what is the value of the Purans and Itihaas for today's world, for kids in particular. There are crowds and crowds who will sit in week long lectures on the Bhagwat puran or Ramayan. A few like me get bored but most pay attention and these are not village idiots these are the elite of the elites in society.

I am still searching for an answer that satisfies me, on how best to convey the events of the puran and ensure that Sat is preserved.. When we enact the birth of Ganesh there are very obvious questions raised by kids, answers to which are usually unsatisfactory for today's kids - I have tried many versions but not satisfied on what is being communicated. New tools are needed. A part of me thinks that we have taken these Purans too far to be coherent, meaningful and purposeful, as is for todays world. Part of me agrees with Sri Dayananda but is unwilling to junk it all, except to retain the core. I am still searching for answers and new tools.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 05 Oct 2012 23:45

A_Gupta wrote:It is a treatise on Artha, Dharma, Kama, it is the poem superlative, it is itihaas; it is not history except in a very general sense.

It is not history, per defintion of history you quoted. I agree. Thank you for quoting specific defintion of History. In that sense Itihasa (Iti -haas, this is what happened) is not Equal to history.

What am I missing? Are you insisting that we should use the word 'Itihaas' and not history while talking about MBH, Ramayana, etc.? If so, I agree.... do realize that it is 'culture change' we need to work on.. IVC to SSVC, India to Bharata, Indian history to Bharatiya Ithihaas.

And history ...per definition cited by you.. i..e one that includes 'why' and also assigns 'predictive quality' (e.g. if Shinde of Gwalior had participated in 1857 revolution, british would/might have been defeated..etc.) is doomed from the start.. not that those who are bent on proving 'historicism' would agree with it.

If you are suggesting (I am not saying you are) that 'anything appearing fantastic...missiles, test tube babies, Vishwa rupa, aeroplanes' from MBH text should be outright considered 'interpolations' or 'imaginative fancy', then it is based on inductive error (Since I can not imagine this to be true, it can not be true). Could these be interpolations or poetic imaginations? Of couse they can be. But one can not/should not reach such conclusion without evidence. This does not mean one has to accept them to be true either. In the absence of independant evidence/falsifiable tests, these descriptions remain 'irrefutable'...and their acceptance or rejection is individual choice.. but both beyond the limits of logic/rationality or science.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 05 Oct 2012 23:48

ShauryaT wrote:
Arjun wrote:One reason why Indians take to English like ducks to the water is because it is ultimately derived from Sanskrit.....
The ONLY reason, why Indians take to English as Artha in todays world is associated with the English language. Nothing else. Do you know, how many American schools have now started to offer Chinese in their schools? Going into the merits of this decision of a free India to continue to use English, would be OT. Something, to pursue in the deracination thread.

I had made the statement purely based on its utility for propaganda value, not on its accuracy !

There are two aspects to the AIT-OIT debate. One part relates to coming up with papers / research aimed at the academic community as also books aimed at the general public. These need to be scholarly and based on unassailable data and science.

The other part relates more to PR and 'strategy' in what is ultimately a civilizational conflict - that's where sound-bytes of the type above can come in handy.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 05 Oct 2012 23:52

ShauryaT wrote:I am still searching for an answer that satisfies me, on how best to convey the events of the puran and ensure that Sat is preserved.. When we enact the birth of Ganesh there are very obvious questions raised by kids, answers to which are usually unsatisfactory for today's kids - I have tried many versions but not satisfied on what is being communicated. New tools are needed. A part of me thinks that we have taken these Purans too far to be coherent, meaningful and purposeful, as is for todays world. Part of me agrees with Sri Dayananda but is unwilling to junk it all, except to retain the core. I am still searching for answers and new tools.

ShauryaT ji,

Familiar with works of Joseph Campbell? If you are not, may be worth the read.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 06 Oct 2012 00:00

KLP Dubey wrote:It may be necessary if you planned to memorize the whole Veda from the age of 8. I assume you are an adult and are not planning to memorize it all. People of average or higher intelligence can easily grasp the Rgvedic recitation by careful listening, careful reading, and reference to the phonetic texts when in doubt. The Samaveda is more difficult and likely requires reference to an expert. If you are truly planning to memorize it fully, join a Vedic school.

Whatever you do, I recommend not contacting a Nambudiri or a Bengali since unfortunately the pronunciation (shiksha) is of such a corrupted quality that no benefit can be derived. Exception is if the person has consciously erased speech defects/influence of vernaculars by exercising their vocal apparatus correctly. So far I have not come across a single such case. All shishyas learn the same corrupted words from the guru . You mentioned being connected with Tamil Nadu. Most of the Vedic experts there have an excellent pronunciation.

Thank you! Are there any CD sets you would recommend? Also, aren't there different styles of recitation of the same text, northern and southern, etc.? Perhaps we should move this discussion to GDF.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 06 Oct 2012 00:07

RajeshA wrote:Even if one were to accept the position that Vedas are apaurushiya and not of human-origin, what stops the rishis who first received the Vedas to adopt these proper nouns available in the Vedas as their own names or their epithets?

RajeshA ji, I don't think anyone disputes that. The traditional understand seems to be that different shakhas used a Vedic epithet to identify themselves. The idea is that whichever Rishi best realized a particular portion of Veda would be considered the authority of his time and become a teacher, forging a shakha.

But shakhas, gotras, pravaras, etc. come into existence, and they die out. New shakhas or rishis can take on the same name as a predecessor. Searching for the rishi who "first" took on a Vedic word as his name seems problematic just like everything else. I think that's Dubey ji's point.

However, as I admitted to Nilesh ji earlier, I think Talageri ji's work has important tactical validity, because he makes explicit the shadowy assumptions that AIT-Nazis slipped in with pseudo-academic legerdemain, and with which their sepoys drone on cluelessly. He then turns those assumptions against AIT rubbish. But Dubey ji's points are also valid as far as the real sense and sensibility of Veda is concerned. Therefore, his points must be acknowledged as a preamble to Talageri's joust.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 06 Oct 2012 00:11

svenkat wrote:KLPDji,
I want to express my appreciation for your inputs.

svenkat ji, when I saw this I burst out laughing. Its just too funny that the poster responsible for pouring cold water on this thread has the initials "KLPD".

(For those wondering - KLPD is Indian college slang for "khade land pey dhoka", i.e. to be abandoned or rebuffed after one has been aroused. Sorry for the crass humour.

)

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Oct 2012 00:23

ShauryaT wrote:these are not village idiots these are the elite of the elites in society.

villagers are idiots automatically?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Oct 2012 01:10

Poor choice of words.

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 06 Oct 2012 02:41

Carl wrote:the poster responsible for pouring cold water on this thread

I am not trying to pour cold water on the thread. This is a mistaken statement. I am providing well-considered information which may be useful in pointing the so-called OIT arguments in the right direction, which does not destroy the bedrock of the Indian dharma while overthrowing AIT and other false theories.

What is happening currently is that the Veda-based arguments of OIT are being advanced in order to replace one fake theory with another equally fake one. And the latter is more dangerous because it comes under the guise of "regaining the rightful view of Indian history". There is so much else for the OIT to refute/study/learn/provide new insight, without ever having to resort to the RV. The dispassionately stated conclusion - based upon actual examination of the Veda - is that the Veda does not support any reliable history or geography.

I also think an honest disclaimer would help, so that people will understand what basic qualifications are possessed by those pushing and defending these theories.

KL

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 06 Oct 2012 02:45

Just out of curiosity has anyone forcefully taken this debate of "cannot use vedas" for history or geography to the AIT proponents? What is the track record of such forceful debate and what is result of such shenanigans? Probably a big zero!

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 06 Oct 2012 02:49

Carl wrote:Searching for the rishi who "first" took on a Vedic word as his name seems problematic just like everything else. I think that's Dubey ji's point.

The Vedic Indian mind needs to be understood first. That is why things like Mimamsa are important. The problem is we have too many people performing "armchair analysis", treating the RV as a source of certain words and meanings which, by selective usage, will help them to "prove" a narrow point or refute someone. Even that could be useful if the methods were more advanced (I suggested some possibilities). Right now, this field is using almost exactly the same type of methods as 100 years ago.

When I utter "agnim ile..." I too become the rishi. I too become Madhuchanda Vaishvamitra. When I utter "indrasya nu viryani..." I too become Hiranyastupa Angirasa. Like every other utterer before me.

However, as I admitted to Nilesh ji earlier, I think Talageri ji's work has important tactical validity, because he makes explicit the shadowy assumptions that AIT-Nazis slipped in with pseudo-academic legerdemain, and with which their sepoys drone on cluelessly. He then turns those assumptions against AIT rubbish.

That might even be OK if the arguments are presented as a counterpoint to AIT. Talageri is already convinced that he has got it all correct and interpreted the RV finally. Elst is already going to town telling people that the RV is after all just a tale of ancient indian tribals, not the exalted text that Indians have known it to be. Those are lies. They must be refuted.

KL

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 06 Oct 2012 03:01

ShauryaT wrote: I am still searching for an answer that satisfies me, on how best to convey the events of the puran and ensure that Sat is preserved.. When we enact the birth of Ganesh there are very obvious questions raised by kids, answers to which are usually unsatisfactory for today's kids - I have tried many versions but not satisfied on what is being communicated. New tools are needed. A part of me thinks that we have taken these Purans too far to be coherent, meaningful and purposeful, as is for todays world. Part of me agrees with Sri Dayananda but is unwilling to junk it all, except to retain the core. I am still searching for answers and new tools.

ShauryaJi:
Today happened to read an interesting development from Japanese research group. Here is the link:
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la- ... 1937.story

Reaching a long-sought milestone, Japanese researchers have demonstrated in mice that eggs and sperm can be grown from stem cells and combined to produce healthy offspring, pointing to new treatments for infertility.

The implication of this research if it is repeated in human context, it could easily mean, that taking a few cells from human skin and condition it to produce embryo cells to a human baby! Well, was immediately reminded of the birth of Ganesh as described in our puranas. So, just thought it might interest you. There are known knowns, unknown unknowns, known unknowns...

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 06 Oct 2012 03:05

JwalaMukhi wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone forcefully taken this debate of "cannot use vedas" for history or geography to the AIT proponents? What is the track record of such forceful debate and what is result of such shenanigans? Probably a big zero!

Probably because people following that track do not have time to waste on running after AIT. Far better things to do. I'd much rather continue doing first-rate science and "upholding" the Veda, than spend my life doing third-rate history and philological analysis like Witzel, Elst, Talageri etc.

Why don't you ask the right question: why aren't people like Witzel, Elst, Talageri allowed to publish in any serious scientific journals which have any useful impact ? Sounds like a big zero right there!

It's called "getting a life" and "not having one's basic convictions be in continuous doubt".

KL

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Oct 2012 03:05

Carl wrote:Searching for the rishi who "first" took on a Vedic word as his name seems problematic just like everything else.

No need to search! Everything is in the Anukramaṇīs. How much does one know about Euclid or even about Alexander?!

Some can claim that the ṛṣis, mentioned in the Anukramaṇīs were the composers of the Vedas. Others can say that they were the first humans who received the Vedas from the non-human agency. Still others can say, that our knowledge about the maintainers of Vedas goes only as far back as these ṛṣis.

It is important that we do not reject the Anukramaṇīs or try to play them down!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 06 Oct 2012 03:08

KLP Dubey wrote: Probably because people following that track do not have time to waste on running after AIT. Far better things to do.

It's called "getting a life" and "not having one's basic convictions be in continuous doubt".

KL

yes quite possible.
It could also be possible that:
1) Most likely they would be laughed at for being unscientific. Hence the fear to even dabble there.
2) But a general welcome that would find in OIT camp would perhaps enable the courage, that probably turns into self delusion of "getting a life" in OIT thread, while not "getting a life" in AIT fora.. Just speculating onlee.
P.s: Those are charitable speculations onlee.

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 06 Oct 2012 03:14

JwalaMukhi wrote:yes quite possible.
It could also be possible that:
1) Mostly likely they would be laughed at for being unscientific. Hence the fear to even dabble there.
2) But a general welcome that would find in OIT camp would perhaps enable the courage, that probably turns into self delusion of "getting a life" in OIT thread, while not "getting a life" in AIT fora.. Just speculating onlee.

I have absolutely no fear of being laughed at for "unscientificness" from people that have never published a single word in a scientific journal.

Possibilities are endless, reality is finite.

My prediction: 10 years from now, AIT and PIE will still be in full flow, since people like Talageri etc have given them all the material they need for continuing the discourse. Talageri, Elst, Rajaram, etc will end up looking like fools at the end of the day, joining their friends in the AIT camp.

Enough said. Have a good weekend.

KL

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Oct 2012 03:18

KLP Dubey wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote:Just out of curiosity has anyone forcefully taken this debate of "cannot use vedas" for history or geography to the AIT proponents? What is the track record of such forceful debate and what is result of such shenanigans? Probably a big zero!
Probably because people following that track do not have time to waste on running after AIT. Far better things to do.

It's called "getting a life" and "not having one's basic convictions be in continuous doubt".

Sometimes I just don't know what to say!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 06 Oct 2012 03:21

Thanks for the predictions.
But it is nice to note that conveniently, the so called "purists" have a few decades of sleeping at the wheel that has enabled the AIT camp. But it is now convenient to blame for the survival of AIT because of few upstarts who challenged the AIT camp. Nice going, at this rate any prediction ignoring the reality will be taken with ~~a grain~~ bucket of salt!
Thank you sir and you too have a nice weekend!

RajeshG · Post by **RajeshG** » 06 Oct 2012 03:40

KLP Dubey wrote:I am providing well-considered information which may be useful in pointing the so-called OIT arguments in the right direction, which does not destroy the bedrock of the Indian dharma while overthrowing AIT and other false theories.

Sadhoo-sadhoo Pandiji, sadhoo-sadhoo.

IMO this is a really important point to understand. If at the end of the day, you have ended up "disproving AIT" while destroying Dharma then you have lost already.

I, for one, started on this "knowledge quest" some years ago. I probably have acquired some. Whether one is qualitatively better then the other is extremely hard to say.

Can I quote gazillion things from random indiana-jones-wannabees ? Yeah sure. Am I as dharmic as I was before this 'knowledge' quest ? Somehow I feel I am not.