Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[KLP Dubey]

Perhaps you can volunteer to dance as cheerleader for the AIT-wallas when this happens!

March on, soldier! I honestly appreciate the time and effort you put into this. I have given my point of view quite clearly, and in the interest of preserving your zeal and overall happiness, I am throwing in the towel and agreeing with you:

1) Talageri is 100% correct in his assumptions and analysis, and he is a brilliant scholar.

2) Anukramanis are authentic right from the Vedic days.

3) The Vedas have history and geography in them, which establishes that it was an account of ancient indigenous tribes of India.

My sashtanganamaskar to you. All the best!

KL

[vishvak]

How about OIT information being gathered from Itihasa only, meaning treating Itihasa as binding/limiting for any historic information at the most while dismissing any attempts to gather historic information from any other branch as incorrect.

[Agnimitra]

No need to search! Everything is in the Anukramaṇīs. How much does one know about Euclid or even about Alexander?!

Some can claim that the ṛṣis, mentioned in the Anukramaṇīs were the composers of the Vedas. Others can say that they were the first humans who received the Vedas from the non-human agency. Still others can say, that our knowledge about the maintainers of Vedas goes only as far back as these ṛṣis.

It is important that we do not reject the Anukramaṇīs or try to play them down!

RajeshA ji, to say that "everything" is in the Anukramanis could be an exaggeration? You are right, though, that there's no need to "reject" it. IIRC, Dubey ji had linked a paper here discussing the gotra-pravara system and the Anukramanis that did justice to them while admitting that they were a socio-political construct for corporate preservation and perpetuation that was conceived at some point in time when the Vedas were already considered ancient. This is the balanced viewpoint.

In Indian systems we see that from time to time there is a re-corporatization of tradition for the sake of dissemination or preservation. So the Anukramanis give us valuable memetic material for a particular iteration of this phenomenon.

But the actual "first" reciter or seer in time still seems impossible to find. If you like, we could speak of the "first known" seer in "known history" -- while simultaneously admitting that the Vedas were already extant and ancient at the time this "first known" seer cognized the meaning of a sukta.

The very second mantra of the RgVeda points to this beginningless and unending succession -

अग्निः पूर्वेभिर्ऋषिभिरीड्यो नूतनैरुत । स देवाँ एह वक्षति ॥ [RgVeda 1.1.2]
"Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers. He shall bring hitherward the Gods."

But there is no mantra in the Vedas that point to anyone as the "first" to receive any part. Whereas other "religious scriptures" all have some chosen person who is credited with having received an eternal truth. They are credited within the test itself, copiously, reading like a biography -- not in a separate index. I'm glad if that sounds more logical to many, but unfortunately or fortunately the Veda does not seem to entertain that scope of logic.

So, historians can certainly use Anukramanis and anything else to trace the recent traversal of the preservers and students of Veda...but to equate that with a search for the "origin" of Veda is a little ambitious -- given their methods.

I feel far more comfortable if Westerners or anyone else derides the Vedas as being the illogical, founder-less, intoxicated bumblings of barbarous tribals who probably had too much to drink and with absolutely no sense of history. This need not create too much khujli. As we can see here, Vedic adherents' reaction is different from Quran Rage. More like Vedic Laugh Riot.

Having reached this conclusion, they must cease to further trouble the subject -- and we need not keep feeding their arguments with responses at their own level. Meanwhile, a rising India must devotes more of her best minds and hearts to dive deeper into Veda and sport in it. That will do far more to showcase its merit and serve its original purpose. I prefer this to the dangerous entanglement in false "logic" that struggles to find a loophole for its hooks within the Veda itself. The former case seems quite preferable as long as Indians themselves don't get taken in by their nonsense -- which will happen less and less as the colonial shadow recedes.

If they want to speculate that in known history the preservers of the Vedas came into India from outside, that's fine too. After all we have plenty of cases of scatter-gather happening in every millennium. Jews were in place A the day before yesterday and dispersed to BCD yesterday, and they're back here at A today with a completely changed racial profile including a generous genetic infusion from Khazars. Still no one doubts their claim on Hebrew tradition.

The concept of Vedic "origin" has to be kept aloof at all cost. Anyone is welcome to join, or leave. But to allow the Vedic narrative to be tied to tribal migrations in or out is bizarre. Rather, the most we can say is that some psychological archetypes for states of mind and movement of universal processes can be discerned from the Veda, and umpteen instances of the human drama can be correlated to those archetypes. So also for the scatter-gather of human migrations.

Therefore, instead of OIT Rage against Dubey ji, we can use the thread to make a course correction about the exact objectives of the thread.
1. Shri Talageri and Co's work can be useful to expose the flawed and tendentious assumptions of the AIT-nazis, and turn their logic against them.
2. Then we must also give ample exposure to the fact that the question of the "origin" of Veda is impossible to ascertain by the given methods.
3. Then we must make everyone admit that the Veda's own voice talks of beginningless and endless transmission, rather than a history punctuated by prophets whose words are immortalized.
4. We can also admit that - to ordinary material logic - this sounds absurd...
5. But that there are other scopes of logic that are used in the advanced sciences where this logic is very current.

[Vayutuvan]

Carl ji

You claimed that (paraphrasing) that it can be proved mathematically physcial reality can be reduced to zero and above

But that there are other scopes of logic that are used in the advanced sciences where this logic is very current.

Could you please elaborate? You pointed me previously to "Deracination - from what?" but there was nothing I could find there. Also, why that particular thread? (I understand that it is OT here).

[Agnimitra]

matrimc ji,:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1348196

[member_23700]

1) Talageri is 100% correct in his assumptions and analysis, and he is a brilliant scholar.

2) Anukramanis are authentic right from the Vedic days.

3) The Vedas have history and geography in them, which establishes that it was an account of ancient indigenous tribes of India.
My sashtanganamaskar to you. All the best!
KL

KLP Dubey ji,

When you began, it was all Hegelian BS, then you were sharp and clear. I am not claiming I understood everything you said, but I did understand the intent.

Now you complete a circle. Sad that you had to come down to "first publish in peer-reviewed journals" and then what you wrote above. Anyways, I am glad it is over. I hope so anyway.

Adios KLPD ji.

[krisna]

when one has something important to say, it is equally important to make the receiver understand them. The Knower has an important role in making the receiver understand.
If the receiver does not understand it is as good as a being a failure. IOW it is not worthy being important.
simple rule of nature.
sadly getting piqued will not solve the issue.

[shiv]

2. Then we must also give ample exposure to the fact that the question of the "origin" of Veda is impossible to ascertain by the given methods.
3. Then we must make everyone admit that the Veda's own voice talks of beginningless and endless transmission, rather than a history punctuated by prophets whose words are immortalized.

From an AIT viewpoint the argument goes something like this. If you find and ancient menu card for sushi in India, does it means that sushi originated in India?

The Vedas may have come down to humanity from Brahma and later found preserved in India, but linguistics shows that all the necessary parameters for acquiring and transmitting those Vedas were already present elsewhere. The evidence simply has not been found yet, but everything points to an origin outside India. It think discussion about the internal structure, content and meaning of the Vedas trips everyone up and that is exactly what has happened in this thread, fascinating as it might have been.

There was some language before Sanskrit. That language gave rise to Avestan and Sanskrit. Avestan too retains some memories of names similar to the Veda, and the language is similar. Avestan was widely spoken in Iran. That proves that all the concepts to construct the Vedas must have been there outside India at a date earlier than Avestan and Vedic sanskrit.

Trying to explain that names like Varuna and Indra do not constitute Vedic knowledge is both true and untrue. The only analogy I can think of is that fissile material does not constitute and atomic bomb, but an atomic bomb is meaningless without fissile material. Names like Indra, Varuna, Sindhu and Saraswati are intrinsic to the Vedas and they would not be the Vedas without those specific words. But merely the occurrence of those words do not make up the Vedas any more than the occurrence of many of those words in Avestan and Mitanni.

The fundamental issue is that the Vedas embody the deepest spiritual meanings of life and the world - a subject that is esoteric enough to clearly divide all people in the world into two groups. One group may be scholars but cannot understand that spirituality. Another group do understand. Either you do or you don't. Unfortunately Indians, whose ancestors helped keep a culture of spirituality alive AND kept the Vedas within memory belong to a group who accept the Vedas as special. Even if you have not read the Vedas and cannot understand or pronounce one word you accept as an matter of faith that the Vedas are not an oral history of cattle stealing tribes but a repository of deep spirituality. This faith is like accepting that the Quran is holy and needs protection. I use the Quran analogy deliberately. I will try and explain that.

The way to protect the Quran is to either accept it as precious as a matter of faith and viciously attack all opponents. Or else try and show everyone what it is about the Quran that makes it so precious. The former route can work - to an extent, but eventually you will end up creating opponents like the the maker of the movie "Innocence of Muslims". But trying to make everyone understand what is good in the Quran too is bound to fail because some will not understand. The route chosen by Islam was to try and "win over" skeptics by while coercing and threatening believers. Vedic knowledge has never been pushed in this manner. It has always been offered as something that one must do for oneself and technically it has nothing against any religion and certainly does not call for praying to Indra or Varuna instead of Allah or Jahweh.

But people who do not understand the meaning and intent of the Vedas have never been punished for misinterpreting them and will not be punished either. So what the hell are we doing on this thread? What are we trying to prove or protect? Are we trying to introduce a "Do not misuse" Lakshman Rekha of the Quranic type? Are we trying to teach the whole world the Vedas? Are we simply trying trying to prove that the Vedas are Indian? Are we trying to prove that the Vedas and Sanskrit are Indian origin? Or are we only speaking of Sanskrit? How important is Sanskrit to the Vedas?

I think we have simply tied ourselves up in knots without actually defining what the goal is. There is no goal other than defeating AIT on the thread. It is NOT about OIT, despite the name and most of the posts seem to show personal quests for spirituality rather than a jihad minded killer intent to kill AIT.

I think one way to re focus this thread is to show how the AIT nazis are right and see what anyone can do other than thrashing about, complaining and quoting Talageri and the other stalwarts; arguments that are met with disdain and derision by the AIT crowd.

[shiv]

Is Sanskrit Indian? No one doubts that.
Are the Vedas Indian? No one doubts that.

Then what is the problem? There is no problem other than the idea that the language that became Sanskrit came from outside India.

After 150 pages, can someone tell me why that idea is wrong?

[Agnimitra]

Unfortunately Indians, whose ancestors helped keep a culture of spirituality alive AND kept the Vedas within memory belong to a group who accept the Vedas as special. Even if you have not read the Vedas and cannot understand or pronounce one word you accept as an matter of faith that the Vedas are not an oral history of cattle stealing tribes but a repository of deep spirituality. This faith is like accepting that the Quran is holy and needs protection. I use the Quran analogy deliberately.

Shiv ji, I think this is where you and others have not understood Dubey ji's point. His point does NOT hinge on any of the following:
-- religious faith
-- tautological, unfalsifiable axioms
-- "tradition" or "culture"
-- "spirituality"
-- intellectual ability to "understand" the Vedas
-- some esoteric or very difficult philosophical point
-- knowing a priori how great the Veda supposedly is.

In fact, his point is so simple that the propeller-head Rakshaks here are over-thinking it and missing it. The point is about knowing how to know. Vedic theory of knowing how to know is based on being, doing and having. It is based on Realism.

People do not keep up a tradition based purely on faith or "spiritual" feelings for so long. Time will eventually wear those out, as we can see. Rather, by applying certain epistemological principles that come bundled with Veda, numerous benefits are derived. It is by virtue of such benefits (material and "spiritual") that accrue, that the Veda is kept alive. It is the applications of Veda that make it the fountainhead of human civilization, among other things. As Dubey ji pointed out, it was just like what we call "science" today. How would you justify a huge budget allocation for scientific research that is based on post-dated payback?

As was pointed out, numerous sciences and arts have been derived from observation and contemplation of the Vedas. Moreover, the fundamental epistemological principle of Veda is the same as that of modern science -- minus the premature insistence on logical Positivism. the fact is that due to becoming distanced from this Vedic viewpoint over the ages and becoming lost in Vedantic speculation, and Pauranic fluff, the Vedic epistemological position of Realism was lost in Indian culture. Gradually, a culture of "world is illusion", relativism, fatalism, and various other social aberrations became rife in India. Even the tradition of transmitting the chanting of the Vedas has almost been lost.

The Vedic Way of Life is based on two main points:
1. A sound epistemology, keeping it real, without introducing arbitraries (such as "authority" or other speculative arbitraries thata re not scrutinized.)
2. A solid practice of ethics.
Inspired by the sound of this very proposition, one undertakes the study and practice of Veda, and applies oneself to its understanding by experimenting with life accordingly. In that process, more and more benefits accrue. Its got nothing to do with forcing others to accept how "great" Veda is by Quran Rage, or by not forcing but then wringing one's hands that "nobody understands how precious it is".

Thus, starting with the loss of clarity on the logical and ethical foundations of Vedic Realism, India also began to lose a lot of the benefits that automatically accrue to one who follows the Vedic Way of Life. That's the basic point.

[Agnimitra]

Is Sanskrit Indian? No one doubts that.
Are the Vedas Indian? No one doubts that.

Then what is the problem? There is no problem other than the idea that the language that became Sanskrit came from outside India.

After 150 pages, can someone tell me why that idea is wrong?

- It may be a "problem", but I wouldn't call any idea "wrong"!
- The "wrong" part here is the identity politics that the AIT Nazis and their sepoys have made this issue into. It is what they do with it rather than the idea itself. And it also involves how we react to it, and what we must do to stop being the effect of it.

Clearly, whether the speakers of Sanskrit were dropped from the sky into the territory known as India, or whether they migrated into India from Timbuktu does not change the fact that India is the current home of Sanskrit. If it matters so much, then this is clear enough.

But identity politics is played on a mental illness and insecurity that is based on distortions in time-space and the memory or threat of pain. Its a mental disease. The more you feed the guys who are taunting you (by playing at their own level), the longer they will prolong it. Rather, better to choose a strategy that first pulls open their dhoti and reveals their chaddis (assumptions), and then pulls the carpet itself from under their feet.

यस्यात्मा बुद्धिः कुणपे त्रिधातुके
स्वधीः कलत्रादिषु भौम इज्यधीः ।
यत्तीर्थ-बुद्धिः सलिले न कर्हिचित्
जनेष्वभिज्ञेषु स एव गो-खरः ॥

"One who identifies his self as the inert body composed of the three elements (mucus, bile and air), who assumes his wife and family are permanently his own, who thinks an earthen image or the land of his birth is worshipable, or who sees a place of pilgrimage as merely the water there, but who never identifies himself with, feels kinship with, worships or even visits those who are wise in spiritual truth — such a person is no better than a cow or an ass." - Bhagavatam 10.84.13

[shiv]

Shiv ji, I think this is where you and others have not understood Dubey ji's point.
<snip>
Thus, starting with the loss of clarity on the logical and ethical foundations of Vedic Realism, India also began to lose a lot of the benefits that automatically accrue to one who follows the Vedic Way of Life. That's the basic point.

The point as far as I am concerned is how any of this relates to this thread. No matter which way I look at it, I cannot see how all this affects AIT or can help prove OIT which is the basic premise of this thread.

[shiv]

Is Sanskrit Indian? No one doubts that.
Are the Vedas Indian? No one doubts that.

Then what is the problem? There is no problem other than the idea that the language that became Sanskrit came from outside India.

After 150 pages, can someone tell me why that idea is wrong?

- It may be a "problem", but I wouldn't call any idea "wrong"!
- The "wrong" part here is the identity politics that the AIT Nazis and their sepoys have made this issue into. It is what they do with it rather than the idea itself. And it also involves how we react to it, and what we must do to stop being the effect of it.

Clearly, whether the speakers of Sanskrit were dropped from the sky into the territory known as India, or whether they migrated into India from Timbuktu does not change the fact that India is the current home of Sanskrit. If it matters so much, then this is clear enough.

Carl, that is muddling the issue, and you are doing a Dubey here. The focus is being shifted from the banal argument about which language came and where it came from to a seemingly higher plane of why all this does not matter because it is being viewed from the wrong perspective.

I think the point that is being missed is that by default the Vedas are, by way of the AIT, being dismissed as the primitive beliefs of cattle raiders. Again, this may not matter to the Vedas or to an enlightened person. But after declaring my history as that of savages, I am also being told that enlightenment and civilization came from elsewhere, not where I believe it came from. I disagree. I am not so unenlightened that I cannot see a con job and I can take the attitude that it hardly matters. Or I can take the attitude that it matters and fight it. What I do is my karma.

I want to fight it and arrive at the truth even if I am wrong at the end. Why is that goal being thwarted by a series of discussions on what went wrong? Can that not be taken somewhere else? After all if the Vedas are eternal and people who know are unaffected by the mundane, they could allow the world to fight on are arrive at the truth by whatever route they care to follow, knowing that the truth is only one and unchangeable? IF Talageri chooses a particular route, there is no need to get irritated by it. One can say that it is wrong, but having said that, if people don't listen, they and Talageri will surely see the folly of their ways some time down the line, knowing the singularity of the truth.

[Nilesh Oak]

Carl ji,

Dubey ji was given ample chance to make his point. He gave the impression the he even understand the process of science. I was glad that here we had someone who knows Veda better and I was looking forward to his exposition. I was eagerly looking forward to his falsifying logic/evidence/ratinale of Talageri.

What I received in return is paltry. I read about Anukramanika when I read Talageri, but did not think much about it. Dubey ji made me aware of it and potential problems with it. However after that it was downhill. He calling Talageri 'quack', after reading his book..but without falsifying any of its internal points... I don't have words to describe the disappointment.

His argument was more on the lines of "oh, I am the best classical singer.. and likes of Bhimsen, Amir Khan or Bade Gulam Ali khan are 'quacks'. Except I don't sing anymore (or ever) and no, no audio Cassettes/CD of my singing are available. BTW, I also consider it taboo to make records of my singing.

I am also troubled by your defense of him in general.. but you went further and claim that his arugment does NOT hinge on the following..

-- religious faith
-- tautological, unfalsifiable axioms
-- "tradition" or "culture"
-- "spirituality"
-- intellectual ability to "understand" the Vedas
-- some esoteric or very difficult philosophical point
-- knowing a priori how great the Veda is.

Thanks for the list. I was frustrated with his responses, but could not put a finger on specific reason why. Your list is useful. He gave me the impression that his point hinged on all of the points you listed and more! He may not have meant it but that was the outcome.

Comparing Witzel and Talageri in one sentence with same invective for both tells me that Dubey ji has read neither of them..and since he claims that he has read them (which I believe), he has not understood the difference.

My irritation with Witzel is not because he is pro-AIT, but because he is dogmatic and agenda driven and will bend truth/evidence at every opportunity. I was hoping Dubey ji would show instances from Talageri (many here were concerned about such effort) that did not meet the tests of logic/science/rationality etc. Nothing was delivered on that front. I even pointed out to Dubey ji that I would want to find holes in Talageri arguments but I can not, partly driven by my limited/nonexistant knowledge of Rigveda.

However to claim that Rigveda does not provide consistent meaning, or that the words such as Janhavi, Sarasvati, yamuna, Sarayu, ....etc do not refer to names of rivers..or that it should be simply chanted (isn't that faith?). A explanation that is clear does not need preamble such as "I have clearly explained it". Granted all would not understand, but if all did not understand, either the person providing explanation should take responsibility for less than clear explanation or recognize that he may be preaching to in-appropriate audience.

(you refer to logical positivism. I am never for one and I have always made the point that much of nonsense under the garb of science is due to confusion of science=Logical positivism. Call me Negativist, that is what I am, also goes by 'falsifiabilist')

[KLP Dubey]

First of all, there seems to be some impression that I am here with an "agenda" to "promote the Veda", or that I am "piqued" in some way by the discussion. Come on, guys.

Let me be clear: I have conceded to RajeshA and declare that he is indeed doing an excellent job. I have said what I had to say, and repeating it would not create additional value. Since I - like all of you - have many other important things to do, the best approach is to "declare victory" for RajeshA. He is not only the originator but also the "primus pilus" of this thread.

The knowledge I have been fortunate to acquire, and the time that its upkeep demands, is valuable in real life. A real-life "mission" - perhaps motivated a little more by what I have read here - is to ensure that the "Vedic history" propagated by Elst, Talageri, Witzel, and other great "vipApavaidushyas" will never engage nor excite the minds of young Indians. OIT/AIT awareness is not that important for India. It should, and will, remain another ongoing and unresolved historical debate among people who do not have anything better to do with their lives and careers. It is not about science, and it cannot be resolved by gauging benefit to society.

On the other hand I know the potential of the Veda to illuminate the minds of real people in real life. It truly requires a Yajna (of the type that Witzels, Talageris, Elsts, and their followers will never know). Such real developments happen offline, not on the internet. That is exciting, and it will be the renaissance of Dharma and of Bharat. There is no serious weightage there for third-rate AIT history, nor does it need any help from OIT history.

There is however an intrinsic conflict between the "historical Veda" of the OIT/AIT, and the goal of "Vedadharmavijaya" based upon the true nature of the Veda. That is why I spent some time here suggesting a way to divide the two pursuits peacefully - thus allowing the important one (the latter) to proceed unfettered by historical baggage.

That being said, again the key point relevant to this thread is: RajeshA is correct in his views. More power to him!

Namaskar,

KL

[KLP Dubey]

Nilesh Oak,

What I received in return is paltry. I read about Anukramanika when I read Talageri, but did not think much about it. Dubey ji made me aware of it and potential problems with it. However after that it was downhill. He calling Talageri 'quack', after reading his book..but without falsifying any of its internal points... I don't have words to describe the disappointment.

What you received in return may have been "paltry" in quantity, but certainly not in quality. I simply do not have the time to write books on these matters nor to waste my time "falsifying" Talageri any more than I have already done. Priorities dictate that.

So I supplied you the gist, not all the details - since I generally ask others to provide me the same information. There are more valuable - if you will excuse my choice of words - things to do. I hope you come to the same conclusion some day.

KL

[KLP Dubey]

Gradually, a culture of "world is illusion", relativism, fatalism, and various other social aberrations became rife in India. Even the tradition of transmitting the chanting of the Vedas has almost been lost.

The Vedic Way of Life is based on two main points:
1. A sound epistemology, keeping it real, without introducing arbitraries (such as "authority" or other speculative arbitraries thata re not scrutinized.)
2. A solid practice of ethics.

Carl,

Thanks for phrasing it with great candor. Your views are unlikely to be popular here (at least among the prolific posters - one never knows how many silent readers there are). They are already "invested" in their approach, so I personally thought it was best to declare a victory on their behalf.

Epistemology and Ethics (E&E) are not the strong suit of OIT/AIT argumentation, yet they are fundamental to human development. OIT/anti-AIT is not strategic thinking for the greater good, it is reactionary thinking based upon real and imagined grievances. It is rather disturbing that the West is ahead on these matters, while Indian endeavor is stuck at lower-level attrition in fighting AIT and other riff-raff. Shrikant Talageri is a case in point.

Unless corrective action is taken, it is quite possible that "the last Vedicist will be a westerner" (to paraphrase the cliche about Englishmen and Indians).

KL

[Arjun]

Dubey ji is the right man on the wrong thread ! And so are a few others...

This thread has a laser-sharp focus and some seem to have missed the big, red, blinking signs that clearly spell out what that focus is.

I am sure many here (including myself) would look forward to Dubey ji's views on bringing about a cultural transformation in India, but just not on this thread.. In fact, if he has the time for it I would suggest there could even be another thread on Strat Forum where he could be the originator and 'primus pilus' as long as the focus of that thread is kept distinct and not mixed up with AIT.

The importance of AIT in strategic calculations can be guaged from the fact that many posters here (including Shiv and RajeshA) who were the mainstays of the Pakistan, China, Strategic Affairs and many other threads have chosen to forego all the other threads & focus most of their time on this one. And I agree fully with the long-term strategic implications of what is being discussed here.

Further, OIT and Anti-AIT arguments require I would say not more than 100 top-class multi-disciplinary scholars who devote their time to this work. On the other hand, the Dharmic reachout that Dubey ji talks about is critical, but targeted at the vast broader population of Indian youth. I really don't see any contradiction here or historical baggage that fetters both from happening simultaneously.

[Agnimitra]

Shiv ji, Nilesh ji, Arjun ji,

Just to be clear, I have never suggested in the slightest that kicking Witzel's musharraf was a waste of time. All power to you and I would join in if I knew enough about some of the stuff discussed here. What I was suggesting in my recent posts was to incorporate this tactical agenda within a broader context. There is no conflict between the two, as long as the right balance is maintained. The tactic should merely be to expose very clearly the implicit assumptions, selective assignments of meaning and circular "evidence" used by the AIT'ers, as well as to show how it can work a different way (OIT) with the same set of assumptions. Once that is done, corner the AIT junk and kick it out of academia or school textbooks. I greatly respect the fight Talageri and others have put into it. I am an avid reader of this thread.

On the other hand I know the potential of the Veda to illuminate the minds of real people in real life. It truly requires a Yajna (of the type that Witzels, Talageris, Elsts, and their followers will never know). Such real developments happen offline, not on the internet. That is exciting, and it will be the renaissance of Dharma and of Bharat. There is no serious weightage there for third-rate AIT history, nor does it need any help from OIT history.

This is true. By doing this, a lot of the psy-ops effects of AIT-propagandu will simply evaporate and vanish. In fact, without this therapeutic alleviation, the AIT-OIT fight could just embroil more and more national energy and clog our already Dork-ized social discourse with further inanities. Thus, at the very least, both these approaches should go hand-in-hand.

So Dubey ji, you could take up a leisurely discussion on this Veda and mimamsa process on another thread when time permits. the focus of that would be to clarify concepts and discuss solid processes, and supply pointers about how interested people can get involved in those activities in real life.

[member_23686]

OT at present but useful for Carl ji

Are there any CD sets you would recommend?

Well you can start your quest here-

These links are for direct mp3 downloads. You'll also need index linked below.

In case anyone want audio of all vedic recitations-

Rgveda

https://vedavichara.com///Vedavichara/V ... da/001.mp3
to
https://vedavichara.com///Vedavichara/V ... da/064.mp3

Krishna Yajurveda

https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/065.mp3
to
https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/146.mp3

Samveda

https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/147.mp3
to
https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/213.mp3

Atharvaveda

https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/214.mp3
to
https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/237.mp3

Shukla Yajurveda

https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/238.MP3
to
https://www.vedavichara.com///Vedavicha ... da/257.MP3


Just keep on changing the number at the end of url from 001 to 257

And if you have time and a fast internet connection then just listen them online

Oh, and these pages are both the source and index-

https://vedavichara.com/vedic-chants/rig-veda.html

https://vedavichara.com/vedic-chants/kr ... -veda.html

https://vedavichara.com/vedic-chants/sh ... -veda.html

https://vedavichara.com/vedic-chants/sama-veda.html

https://vedavichara.com/vedic-chants/atharva-veda.html

KLPDji,
I want to express my appreciation for your inputs.

svenkat ji, when I saw this I burst out laughing. Its just too funny that the poster responsible for pouring cold water on this thread has the initials "KLPD".

(For those wondering - KLPD is Indian college slang for "khade land pey dhoka", i.e. to be abandoned or rebuffed after one has been aroused. Sorry for the crass humour. )

This is why I call him Dubey ji

[rohitvats]

Gentlemen, if I may add, I think we're lost the purpose of this thread. This thread has been a great learning for me and I daresay, after my first love for military orbats, this has absolutely captured my fascination. Posters have been doing an incredible job in sourcing information and taking pains to compile and post the same here. I would hate to see such hard work go waste.

Let me summarize the positions as I understand it. Please feel free to correct me as this is a subject which is completely new to me and my comprehension may well fail me.

1. The aim of this thread is quite obvious and so has been the thrust of inquiry into the subject - till some time back. The discourse on the evolution of Indian civilization has been hijacked by western 'experts' who have their own agendas which this thread has been able to bring forth clearly.

2. The focus of inquiry has been to question the historic validity of the assumptions made by the western experts to arrive at their conclusions.

3. Now, it so happens that the 'assumptions' are based varied kind of evidences - from linguistic to archaeology. Western experts have gone to great extent to ensure that the evidence from various sources is tied up together in one grand narrative to prove the mastery of White Man.

4. The main tool to prove this grand narrative is the PIE 'Mother Language' - and ever since its 'birth'...every effort has been made to reinforce it. Archaeology (or selective fact finding and reasoning) has been a favorite tool to back this theory. From an assassin's perspective, the construction of PIE is a master stroke - because it hits at the very core of Indian civilization. By questioning the geography of origin of Vedas and the language in which it is largely understood day, the western experts question the very basis of Indian civilization.

6. In their endevour to back up the PIE Mother language construct, western experts have used Rig Veda has an instrument to further their means. They selectively quote Rig Veda to buttress their assertions. After reading this thread, I realize that by doing so, this cabal of quacks has achieved another very important aim - that of reducing RV to nothing but a historic memoir of some nomads who went about killing and conquering inferior black people. This travesty reduces the very essence of Vedas from what they actually are - repertoire of deep knowledge which has the ability to uplift the mankind. By reducing it a more plebeian level, they bring it to same level as ballads sung in courts of western kingdoms and achieve their objective of reducing the depth and breadth of Indian Civilization and its thoughts. This is the objective that they had initially started out with.

7. However, examples of twisted logic and leaps of faith to achieve this grand narrative have been shown on this thread (and I'm personally grateful to everyone here).

8. There are two broad approaches in this endevour to show AIT/AMT as bogus -

(a) analysis of historic data and linguistics evidence - covering both the data points as they exist and the theories made out after stringing them together for forwarding PIE/AIT arguments. IMO, Shiv has done tremendous work in this field and deserves a big thanks for all the hard work he has put in. He has already shown the twisting and torturing of facts and assumptions by the western quacks to further their view.

(b) Rig Veda analysis - the second approach has been to use the Rig Veda in the same historical manner as western quacks and show how western experts have got it all wrong. That their reading of RV as 'HISTORICAL DOCUMENT' has been incorrect and how they have twisted logic to further their claims. This is were Talageri comes in.

I consider the work of Nilesk Oak and others in archae-astronomy more on the lines of approach (a) above. From my limited reading (actually, minuscule) about it here, I am of the opinion that there is scientific basis to it - well, there will have to be one as it will run up against more recent studies in the field of geography and oceanography (please pardon me as I'm not aware of technical terms here).

9. In this entire exercise, we have a another view-point - that of KL Dubey about the context, content and meaning of Rig Veda (and other Vedas). Honestly, before I started reading up on his posts, I was a bit lost on the "what is so great about Vedas" part. Reading up on posts by other people, I had started to look at Rig Veda as some sort of historical document - even if in a tangential way. On reading up his posts and those of others in similar vein (plus, excerpts from writings of Aurobindo) as helped me to at least form an opinion on what Vedas truly are. For that, I will remain eternally grateful to him.

10. I think when KL Dubey started on this thread, proponents of approach (b) of using "BETTER" understanding of Rig Veda rejoiced because they thought that with his level of knowledge, he will be able to "SUPPORT" their approach to call the western bluff of selectively or wrongly quoting Rig Veda.

12. But position of KL Dubey on what actually Rig Veda is has had a fallout - which affects both the AIT/OIT theories.

11. I can clearly see the pain in the posts of Rajesh A...an otherwise gentleman, he use of harsh language (by his standards) betrays the pain he feels when KL Dubey's POV questions the work of Talageri - and by extension the tools which are considered necessary in beating the western quacks at their game. I can relate to the nationalist in him.

12. However, gentlemen, based on what I have read here, no one has been able to refute KL Dubey as far as his assertion on Rig Veda is concerned. His position about RV is actually common with position of many Indians on lot of topics which riles people on BRF...from Islamism to EJs to Kashmir etc.

13. People with deep knowledge about RV and other Vedas would consider attempts by Witzel and Talageri as completely erroneous and futile. They are not bothered about the western hijacking of Indian narrative or other such constructs. I don't think many people who read up on Vedas in depth or have mastered them (like Pandits in various parts of India) come across the western literature on the topic or understand the import of grand narrative that has been built around such false and incorrect western notions. And implications thereof.

14. Therefore, when people advance arguments about such scholars having failed India by not countering the western narrative, they are being unjust. And by extension, since they have not bothered to slug it out with western quacks, they should remain mum on work of likes of Talageri, is again in my view, an erroneous argument.

15. The need to take back the Indian narrative from western quacks is felt by those who have been exposed to this perfidy. This is what BRF has done to many of us over the years. And this is what is being attempted in this thread. If we want to co-opt others (like KL Dubey) we need to make them understand the absolute requirement to under take this endevour.

16. And we've got into a loop in trying to some how co-opt likes of KL Dubey by wanting them to accept point 14. And which as I see it, is unlikely to happen.

17. I'm not an expert to comment on Talageri or others but I am of the opinion that we can co-opt people like Dubey ji to pick holes into arguments of western quacks. The arguments which KL Dubey ji made against Talageri will apply in toto against Witzel and others as well. Problem with this approach is that we're already given the nationalistic tag to likes of Talageri and taking this approach will bring pain.

18. And it is a much more difficult exercise as well. Because while we have work of Talageri (and others like him) to quickly reference and rebut the western narrative, there is no such corresponding work from likes of Dubey ji. And there in lies the issue.

19. In the absence of the above happening anytime soon, I really think we should continue on the path shown by Shiv...the corpus of knowledge he has built here is enough to build proper structured argument to poke holes into AIT/AMT theories.

JMT and all that...

[Arjun]

15. The need to take back the Indian narrative from western quacks is felt by those who have been exposed to this perfidy. This is what BRF has done to many of us over the years. And this is what is being attempted in this thread. If we want to co-opt others (like KL Dubey) we need to make them understand the absolute requirement to under take this endevour.

Well reasoned post, but I think you are reading Dubey ji wrongly.

1) He simply does not have the stomach or interest to take the fight to Witzel through the medium of research papers or books that take an Anti-AIT stance. He has admitted as much a couple of times already on this thread. His primary interest is in preserving the sanctity of the 'eternality of Vedas' proposition, and his efforts are always going to be centered around that angle.

2) Dubey ji's rhetorical skills are indeed very valuable if they could be applied to the cause. But a lot of folks out here seem to have confused his rhetorical skills with logic. That, I believe, is a wrong impression. Much of his logic can be and has been refuted by RajeshA, Nilesh and myself. Now, his rhetorical skills alone would still be highly valuable - but then his interests are not aligned.

3) I think his work will be extremely valuable in getting folks to appreciate the real worth of the Vedas - but that is a separate topic and maybe deserves a thread of its own.

[RajeshA]

As a summary,

1) I agree completely with KLP Dubey ji on the essence and value of the Vedas for the Indics, even though I have not had by far similar exposure and immersion in the Vedas as he has had. The Vedas should be considered eternal and authorless.

2) I very clearly appreciate KLP Dubey ji's part in enlightening many of us on the relevance of Vedas, as well as his hint of looking for sound change laws in Pratisakhyas.

3) My request to Dubey ji was to help develop a system of disclaimers and qualifiers that scholars of the Sanskritic Reading of the Vedas can use, when analyzing the Vedas, or one could help develop narratives and models which do allow the legitimacy of the geographical associations to India, if not history.

4) What pained me was the incessant need of KLP Dubey ji to pour scorn on Shri Shrikant Talageri calling him 'buffoon', 'quack', 'fool' and 'fraud'. Sure, him throwing OIT into the same soup with AIT, was also irritating, and that too in this thread.

5) In the end, I am also pained that the chowkidaars of the Indic narrative cannot expect those living in the ivory towers of the Indic ideological core to come out and help him. The chowkidaar would get slaps instead and in fact be asked to "go get a life". In fact for over 2 centuries, those living in those ivory towers have not seen any need to come out and help.

6) Again it must be underlined, this thread is first and foremost about Indian history, and in the ideological sense correct history is the perimeter wall of any civilization.

[RajeshA]

Clearly, whether the speakers of Sanskrit were dropped from the sky into the territory known as India, or whether they migrated into India from Timbuktu does not change the fact that India is the current home of Sanskrit. If it matters so much, then this is clear enough.

Carl ji,

it does matter very much, whether or not Sanskrit (and "PIE") developed in the Indian Subcontinent. Now we can accept that it did not if we are given incontrovertible evidence of the contrary, however it does matter and the stakes are high.

From all that I have read and analyzed, this fact is being used to kill Indian Civilization, because it is pitting "Aryans" vs. "natives" giving rise to all sorts of movements having to do with purging the whole Sanskriti of India using denigration and victimization complex as tools.

• Non-Indigenism (AIT),
• Macaulayism and
• Cultural Digestion

are termites that have been eating away at the thick trunk of the Banyan Tree of Indian Civilization.

For these termites,

• Indigenism, Out-of-India Theory,
• Sanskrit, Indian Antiquity, Indian Civilizational Accomplishments,
• 'Being Different', Cultural Copyrights and Sanskriti

are the killer sprays, because these are the building-blocks of a Pan-Indic identity.

But identity politics is played on a mental illness and insecurity that is based on distortions in time-space and the memory or threat of pain. Its a mental disease. The more you feed the guys who are taunting you (by playing at their own level), the longer they will prolong it. Rather, better to choose a strategy that first pulls open their dhoti and reveals their chaddis (assumptions), and then pulls the carpet itself from under their feet.

Distortions in time-space narratives transform the identity itself. It is not simply a mental illness but a mutational process.

So one needs to correct the distortions themselves and assert one's own narrative. This cannot be solved in a multi-ethnic society using faith only, and to be frank those who live in the ivory towers are not even doing that comprehensively and determinedly.

[Arjun]

Clearly, whether the speakers of Sanskrit were dropped from the sky into the territory known as India, or whether they migrated into India from Timbuktu does not change the fact that India is the current home of Sanskrit. If it matters so much, then this is clear enough.

Says who? As per Western Indologists - its the Western Indology centers that are the current home of all Sanskrit expertise.

[shiv]

There is however an intrinsic conflict between the "historical Veda" of the OIT/AIT, and the goal of "Vedadharmavijaya" based upon the true nature of the Veda.

Unless I am mistaken, a very similar comment was made by one Shri Darmeister about the Zend Avesta in the early chapters of a 500 page pdf on the Zend Avesta that I am now trying to mine for information. For reasons I will explain below translations of the Zend Avesta came to the west in two forms. One was a "traditional Parsi interpretation" made by one Anquetil who lived among Parsis who told him their interpretation of the Pahlavi (Middle Persian version) of the text for that purpose. The other was a 15th century Sanskrit translation of a Pahlavi text which is now the most accurate version available.

Here is what Darmeister says

a year after the death of Burnouf a new controversy broke out, which still continues, the
battle of the methods, that is, the dispute between those who, to interpret the Avesta, rely chiefly or exclusively on
tradition, and those who rely only on comparison with the Vedas. The cause of the rupture was the rapid progress made in
the knowledge of the Vedic language and literature: the deeper one penetrated into that oldest form of Indian words and
thoughts, the more striking appeared its close affinity with the Avesta words and thoughts. Many a mysterious line in the
Avesta received an unlooked-for light from the poems of the Indian Rishis, and the long-forgotten past and the origin of
many gods and heroes, whom the Parsi worships and extols without knowing who they were and whence they came, were
suddenly revealed by the Vedas.

The point I am making is that if the Sanskrit "translations" are themselves defective, the way philologists have dealt with Avesta is even more defective for the following reasons

1.No authentic version of the Zend Avesta exists other than a "defective traditional one from a middle Persian origin" and a less defective Sanskrit translation of a Pahlavi (Middle Persian version). It appears that the original language in which the Zend Avesta was chanted is completely lost. To me this fact reveals the meaning of Witzel's statement on the lines that "We depend heavily on Sanskrit for the Zend Avesta and there is no other choice"

2. This is the process by which Avestan as studied today was arrived at:

..Burnouf, laying aside tradition as found in Anquetil's translation, consulted it as found in a much older and purer form, in a Sanskrit translation of the Yasna made in the fifteenth century by the Parsi Neriosengh in accordance with the old Pahlavi version. The information given by Neriosengh he tested, and either confirmed or corrected, by a comparison of parallel passages and by the help of comparative grammar, which had just been founded by Bopp, and applied by him successfully to the explanation of Zend forms. Thus he succeeded in tracing the general outlines of the Zend lexicon and in fixing its grammatical forms, and founded the only correct method of interpreting the Avesta.

In fact no one seems to know the exact meaning of the name Zend Avesta. Of the work itself, this is what remains

The primitive Avesta, as revealed by Ormazd to Zoroaster and by Zoroaster to
Vistâsp, king of Bactria, was supposed to have been composed of twenty-one Nosks or Books, the greater part of which
was burnt by Iskander the Rûmi (Alexander the Great). After his death the priests of the Zoroastrian religion met together,
and by collecting the various fragments that had escaped the ravages of the war and others that they knew by heart, they
formed the present collection, which is a very small part of the original book, as out of the twenty-one Nosks there was
only one that was preserved in its entirety, the Vendîdâd

Under the circumstances, it cannot be said that the connection of the Zend Avesta and the Atharva Veda is wrong, or that the name Chanda Upasta is not the right derivation. The Avestan that linguists rave about is Avestan derived from a much later Pahlavi (Middle Persian) text after it is likely to have udnergone untold changes. This is conveniently sidelined and forgotten as Avestan is made a sister language of Sanskrit on dubious grounds. Mind you it is not wholly grammar that makes them similar - Darmeister says that Avestan has aspects of grammar like Greek and Latin.

Once again if we go back to early discussions - the Zend Avesta of Zarathustra was in some language - let me call it "Language X". Language X may or may not have been Sanskrit. That Language X over time became Middle Persian (Pahlavi) in which the Zend Avesta was preserved fragmentarily. But that later language with all the unknown and undocumented sound changes that may have occurred over an unknown period of time are taken as original Avestan based on linguistic deduction.

There is actually no proof whatsoever that the original Avestan was not Vedic Sanskrit itself. It is just an assumption and a matter of faith that it was not based on the fragmentary material that survives in the Pahlavi (Middle Persian) language.

[A_Gupta]

Pitting Aryans against natives would not work if there were no underlying schisms in the first place. Why AIT history has political relevance today is because of the conditions that apply today. An alternative to fixing the history is to heal those schisms.

[A_Gupta]

A question which goes by default in India is faced more clearly by Hindus in foreign lands. Children want to know what it means to be Hindu, and why it is an advantage, not a disadvantage (or why the advantages outweigh the disadvantages).

AIT/OIT in that sense hardly matters. What Dubeyji is talking about is far more important. And if you can answer that question for the second/third generation Hindu child in England or America, the same answer applies, with much greater force, in India. And that really is the goal, is it not?

[RajeshA]

Pitting Aryans against natives would not work if there were no underlying schisms in the first place. Why AIT history has political relevance today is because of the conditions that apply today. An alternative to fixing the history is to heal those schisms.

I had once earlier responded to this logic on this thread itself. Reposting a snippet of it

If one has two knives stuck up one's bottom, it is obvious that one would need to take out both to ease the pain.

What is the need of falling into the logical fallacy of Either-OR?!

Another fact is that the Aryan Invasion Theory is a poison used to make the "social discrimination" wound infected, making it immune to healing! Aryan Invasion Theory takes the wound-healing process and converts it into an ideological rebellion which feeds off the situation of the wound remaining unhealed and thus keeps it that way, and through insurgency in fact deepens the wound.

For more context, please read the original post itself.

[RajeshA]

A question which goes by default in India is faced more clearly by Hindus in foreign lands. Children want to know what it means to be Hindu, and why it is an advantage, not a disadvantage (or why the advantages outweigh the disadvantages).

AIT/OIT in that sense hardly matters. What Dubeyji is talking about is far more important. And if you can answer that question for the second/third generation Hindu child in England or America, the same answer applies, with much greater force, in India. And that really is the goal, is it not?

One can search for one's value system through some personal quest, or one imbibes the value system of the parents, or one adopts the value system of one's immediate society or one explores the value system of one's identity!

In case of personal quest it is really for the individual to see. For children of Indics living abroad, the legacy immersion in Indic culture can wear off in a couple of generations. If they adopt from their immediate society, it would not be Indic culture.

So basically it is the identity that really plays a major role. For multi-cultural societies in the West - USA, Canada, Britain, New Zealand, South Africa, France, Netherlands, where non-white people somehow do find a place for themselves and are thus melting-pots, retaining the ethnic identity is even more difficult.

In Islam, because it looks for conflict, the identity of the Muslims gets periodically strengthened through polarization of society in the West. But Indics do not take this route nor should they, and hence the danger of losing one's ethnic identity and thereby fully immersing in the Western identity is bigger.

So IMHO the equation is FIRST comes Identity, THEN come the values like Dharma, etc. For people of Indian origin to retain their ethnic identity as Indics, regardless of the quality of parental guidance, it is important that India radiates a strong sense of Civilizational Uniqueness and Cohesion.

AIT, Macaulayism and Cultural Digestion eat away at this Civilizational Uniqueness and Cohesion. So in order to remedy that one necessary step is to kill AIT.

If one loses one's identity then one's connection to the Vedas is also gone!

Just my 2 paisa!

[shiv]

A question which goes by default in India is faced more clearly by Hindus in foreign lands. Children want to know what it means to be Hindu, and why it is an advantage, not a disadvantage (or why the advantages outweigh the disadvantages).

AIT/OIT in that sense hardly matters. What Dubeyji is talking about is far more important. And if you can answer that question for the second/third generation Hindu child in England or America, the same answer applies, with much greater force, in India. And that really is the goal, is it not?

This DESERVES a separate thread. You are a hoary old BRF codger who has never started a thread. You expand on the question and perhaps put some personal perspectives and make a paragraph out of it and I am sure we will have a fruitful thread. Right one here - it has value for Indians. It can always be moved if necessary.

[ShauryaT]

AIT/OIT in that sense hardly matters. What Dubeyji is talking about is far more important. And if you can answer that question for the second/third generation Hindu child in England or America, the same answer applies, with much greater force, in India. And that really is the goal, is it not?

Both you and Dubey ji should contribute to the deracination thread.

[A_Gupta]

So IMHO the equation is FIRST comes Identity, THEN come the values like Dharma, etc. For people of Indian origin to retain their ethnic identity as Indics, regardless of the quality of parental guidance, it is important that India radiates a strong sense of Civilizational Uniqueness and Cohesion.

AIT, Macaulayism and Cultural Digestion eat away at this Civilizational Uniqueness and Cohesion. So in order to remedy that one necessary step is to kill AIT.

Just my 2 paisa!

Not to get into debate, but to continue the exchange of ideas. Some of South East Asia became culturally Hindu - Buddhist missionaries were no doubt there, but e.g., Cambodia was Hindu - without any conscious propagation of the culture. This had nothing to do with identity. It was the ultimate in soft power. And unlike American soft power, this Hindu culture was infinitely more accommodative of identity - you don't become little faux-Indians by adopting it.

I don't think this was because of stories of flying chariots in the Mahabharata or promises of going to heaven after death or any such. It would be interesting to actually understand the process, right now I'm only going to guess - it was because of cultural vitality. A culture gives an individual a way of conceiving of, ordering, running his life. It is this attractiveness that we have to restore. No one in Cambodia is going to embrace or reject his/her Hindu heritage because of AIT/OIT. It is going to be because Hindu culture is seen as enhancing or degrading their life prospects **today**.

Lastly, frankly, if Hinduism has nothing to offer in successfully dealing with the world as it is today, it deserves to become a museum piece, not a burden tied around the neck of Indians. If we cannot convince Hindus or recently-were-Hindus in the heart of India that Hinduism is relevant, then we have lost the debate, and again, AIT/OIT is a distraction.

A last truth is - if you fight your opponents on the battleground of their choosing, or in a debate, using their framing of the issues, you've already handicapped yourself. In that sense, whether Vedas came from outer space or the inner space of someone's imagination is irrelevant; what matters is whether people see in the Vedas the source of their current oppression, or the means of their liberation from oppression (oppression here in the worldly sense). If the Hindu culture continues under its current reputation, people will embrace Christianity, Islam, atheism, (Marxism in the past), Ayn Rand's objectivism, etc., etc., in increasing numbers. AIT is in that sense more a symptom than a cause. Nobody rejects mobile phones or English because of its foreign and/or imposed origins.

[Murugan]

It would be very difficult to teach our chilldren about dharma and vedas if sages and thinkers like sri aurobindo and dayanand saraswati are just introduced as spiritual health doctors.

People who accuse klpd for making unpleasant comment about shrikantji also stand accused of minimizing other great people of india, without of course knowing them, reading them and understanding their work.

[Dan Mazer]

It seems to me that even if OIT replaced AIT tomorrow, the schisms that developed because of AIT would not be affected. The idea that created the divides is not that 'Aryans came from outside India'. It's the idea that there existed a group of people with their own separate culture, religion and language called the Aryans who then spread their culture and religion all over India and imposed the caste system. Indology is dependant on this idea that cultural phenomena in India can be analysed in terms of a pre-Aryan or non-Aryan part and an imposed Aryan part.

[RajeshA]

A_Gupta ji,

I'll put the question differently. The West is already in the process of digesting Buddhism as well as Hinduism, minus the idols. How about letting this process to continue. When the West has finished its digestion, they can propagate to the Cambodians as well as Indians, the virtues of Dharma and all the rest.

Why do we try to squeeze ourselves, us SDRE Indians, into the equation? There is nothing special about us! Whatever discoveries were made were made by some Aryan rishis who had more to do with Europeans than the natives of India, and in any way they are long gone and India does not represent their legacy!

As KLP Dubey ji has already predicted that the last Vedic would be a Westerner, so I don't think there is any need for us to struggle here against the inevitable. I guess the ivory tower of Vedic scholars in India itself plans on shifting to the West, leaving the SDRE Indians to choose between Allah and Jesus!

Perhaps we SDREs are really a "kabab men haddi", because we are insisting on some ownership of Sanskrit and the Vedic culture for ourselves. But then Vedas is for everybody and so we should not insist on any copyrights! Right? Also why worry about all those dead kings who ruled India in the last 15,000 years! They are all dead, and what does it matter whether they are considered fiction or real?! Does it also matter whether Mathematics came from India or from the Greeks? For the modern world, important is that it is there! We SDREs should not try to act immodestly or chauvinistically!

Let's be clear about something! Either we make a stand and demand that we be treated as a civilization with its accomplishments and that means destroying AIT and correcting our history, or we put up our hands and say it is a good thing that now more Americans know Veda and Sanskrit and Veda has been saved, regardless of whether our civilization lies fully fragmented with the Sanskriti long having left our shores.

[Arjun]

AIT needs to be looked at from the lens of its effect on the Indian Civilization and its ability to rival and surpass Western / Sinic Civilizations, rather than from a lens of Hinduism.

Those looking at the matter from a lens of Hinduism alone will correctly identify that there are bigger problems than AIT (such as Islam and Christian Evangelism) to worry about....and that would lead at some stage to the cognitive dissonance that we are seeing.

Now it is to be hoped that Hindus would be as much interested in Indian Civilizational Cohesiveness and Competitiveness as they would in purely Hindu matters. But if that is not the case - then my guess is they will not find this thread suitable.

[vishvak]

Why Aryan Invasion Theory (not referring Aryan Migration Theory in this post) is now discarded could be of some help.
Harvard Don Denigrates Hindus

Dr Metzenberg, a California biologist, rejected Prof Witzel's insistence that the 'Aryan invasion' theory should be retained, by citing scientific evidence.

"I've read the DNA research and there was no Aryan migration," he retorted, adding, "I believe the hard evidence of DNA more than I believe historians."

He went on to describe Prof Witzel's portrayal of Hinduism as 'insensitive' and something that Hindus themselves would be unable to recognize.

With Prof Witzel's case collapsing, the California Board of Education threw out his counter-recommendations.

These are as per western standards. There is more in the article too, such as petition by Hindu parents and the "The witzel unprintables".

I have read perhaps in this thread that some western historian saying "who talks about Aryan Invasion Theory" anyway or something of that sort, dismissively. This is well understood already. However it could be important why people are not talking about it. Perhaps because there are authoritative criteria, such as DNA research and perhaps more, that could affect western discourse, against OIT. More importantly, nature of such criteria could affect any discourse in historic sense. This is also well understood here.

For example, DNA research is one aspect. Now what would DNA research mean about western grand narrative could be important too, where the prevailing ideas could be found to be inadequate by criteria affecting discourse such as DNA research thereby leading to collapse the way now AITheory.

To point this out, it is perhaps smart, not perhaps the best but very smart, to use terms that are used by western scholars against OIT, after fully understanding under-which-logic/why such derogatory/dismissive terms are used.

[ShauryaT]

The challenge and impact of AIT is quite clear, let us not kid ourselves. It claims the Indian civilization with vedic roots to be primitive and not worthy, foreign sourced, seeks to divide our people into two groups of Aryan and Dravidian and seeks to enforce a disruptive view based on colonization principles (Aryan over Dravidian), it seeks to divorce the root or all Indian languages to be derived from a foreign source. It thereby seeks to take away our pride, our history and damage our identities. This damaged identity is then used to further divide us on various issues and ensure that a fertile ground exists for western civilization to conquer us through hard or soft means.

The restoration of our identity is critical to the purpose of our self worth as a nation and as a civilization. It is critical to propagate the unique message that our civilization has to offer to the world. Unity in our lands and peoples will ensure our success. It is division amongst us that has led to our failures, Unity will ensure that we are strong enough to offset these challenges thrown at us.

However, I do not think we have to refute AIT using the same frameworks and arguments that they propound. Just like they have developed the art of dismissing vast corpuses of our texts as "fiction" and unreliable, we can do the same and negate their concocted history as not worthy of detail analysis, as their base assumptions based on the Vedas and language and so many other areas are faulty.

What we ought to do is to rebuild our own narratives of ourselves first, before talking about OIT et al. For this purpose, we do not have to touch the vedas at all. We have 800,000 other documents, sites and digs, history of kingdoms that we need to understand without ANY reference to AIT/PIE or Horse grave BS.

SD core concepts and texts can be entirely divorced from this project to understand our history. SD texts purpose was not to maintain history and a reliance on such will invariably produce wrong results. Let us understand, there is a reason these AIT turds went after our core texts, it was not to find its antiquity, it was to destroy our pride. We do not have to fall for their methods.

[RajeshA]

I am going to offer a theory and I am sure it would be considered as provocative for many!

I think those who plead in favor of saving the Vedas and the few other philosophical commentaries on it, but rubbish the efforts of Indians to establish a civilizational narrative based on history and ownership (of copyrights) have in fact put on their parachutes, tucked in their few sacred books, and are ready to jump from the Indian airplane, caring zilch for how the rest of the Indians fare.

It matters zilch to these people whether other Indians, say the Dalits, find their Vedic spirit or whether the "Dravidians" retain any of the "Aryan" influence. India and Indians matter not to them, because they have the passport to their individual Moksha AND the West. If India goes down politically, socially fragmented because all the Sanskriti glue has rubbed off, they need not worry because their fate is not tied to India or Indians.

When one has seen the "Vedic Truth", why is then India and Indians important? Wouldn't one be lessening oneself by associating oneself with ignorant SDREs with their superstitions and idols?

That is one reason why those living in ivory palaces of Vedic wisdom would not want to come to help the chowkidar in his efforts to ward off the wolves! They have their parachutes!

Hasn't Rajiv Malhotra spoken about these Deepak Chopras and other Gurus? Why have a SDRE following when one can have a white European following? After all, there are so many kids in the West now, who want to learn Sanskrit? Why destroy their Aryan dreams? Why destroy AIT? And let's not forget, Vedas is for all humanity, and not just SDREs? Perhaps SDREs can first try out Christianity, because they may not really be qualified for the Vedas as yet!

There is a popular rumor among Pakis, about Brahmins trying to pour lead into the ears of Shudras for listening to Vedas! I don't know where they got it from!

But America is the land of opportunity and it beckons! Is that where "one gets a life"?! So let's hope the parachutes take one all the way to America!

Another term for the Glossary perhaps!

Vedic Parachuters!

I say we get Indian history in order, reestablish India's Civilizational Identity, and ensure the Vedic heritage for all Indians - Scheduled Castes, OBCs, Dravidians, Tribals, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas and everybody else! AIT has fractured and mutilated India's Civilizational Identity and thus needs to be taken down!