Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[shiv]

One of the links that Dubeyji posted earlier dealt with how a class of patriarchal Brahmins was created to carry forward the tradition of the Vedas. Creation of a patriarchal family (Gotra) centered system is an obvious and elegant solution to a problem that involves the perpetuation of the memory of Vedic sounds with complete fidelity, but the solution excludes most other people.

I could claim that my own family were among those who carried the tradition down to the late 1800s from god knows when. But economic circumstances at that time forced the sole holders of Vedic tradition, the Brahmins to abandon their family tradition and take up alternate means for survival. In my immediate family, who were traditionally Samavedis the Veda tradition has been dead for three generations (counting only up to my generation). For my cousins who have grandchildren the tradition has been dead for 5 generations.

This loss was a two step process. Step one was an ancient need to propagate this system solely via Brahmin families as detailed in the article linked by Dubey. That lasted several millennia until the waves of Islamic and European invasions. These led to the declarations of Brahmins, the holders of Vedic knowledge as racist bigots. Still, as long as Brahmins were supported by society the tradition survived. Once Macaulayite education started with a concomitant stopping of funding for Sanskrit schools, the system started dying. The very Brahmins who maintained Vedic tradition of keeping the sound alive even if they had no insight rushed into Macaulayite schools with gusto and my own family was no exception. No one else had the knowledge, and the Vedas were bound to die.

India has now lost much of that Vedic tradition that Dubey seems to represent and is filled with people such as myself, Rajesh and Talageri who are both ignorant and incapable of rising to the level demanded by Dubey. This is a fact that cannot be remedied by sarcasm or derision. It may be sad, but it has to be faced. It is odd that both ManishH and Dubey who both reveal some knowledge of the Vedas have displayed the very sarcasm and derision that the entre community of Brahmins stands accused of displaying. It is that very accusation of arrogance that is used to great effect in the Dravida politics of Tamil Nadu, although Karnataka, Andhra and Kerala have different dynamics. Since ManishH and Dubey seem to stand on opposite sides of the AIT debate it almost seems like the extra awareness of the Vedas only solidifies them into a category different from the rest

Any solutions that are offered must take into account the capability of 90% of Indians and the ability of the 1% who retain the Vedas to pull the 90% up. AIT is not going to be fought by superior knowledge of what the Vedas represent simply because the people who can do that are so thin on the ground as to be virtually absent. And if the few Veda enlightened people that are there take a derisive or contemptuous attitude about the ignorant methods of the hoi polloi, it is only one more self goal in a series of self goals that have been scored for centuries. As far as I can tell from the attitudes of both Dubey and ManishH, AIT need not be fought at all.

[Anand K]

Is there any video on youtube which demonstrates the sounds funda?
If not, I'm sure someone here can convince one of the 1% to help him spread the work..... get them to record the sounds. Explain ideas of hidden meaning over the written word, importance of intonation etc. Hoarding of knowledge was a reason indian fell to repeated information. No matter what the keepers of the knowledge waxed about "Aam admi not ready" or "there is a price for attaining the knowledge".

I am kind of cynical on this "we-XYZ families-of high birth-are-the-sole-keepers" funda. Lots of scope for cronyism and dynasty-ism and corruption down the years, hain?

[ShauryaT]

I could claim that my own family were among those who carried the tradition down to the late 1800s from god knows when.

Matches to the time, when under colonial duress, education was no longer supported by society or could not be. Again the book by Ram Swarup, I mentioned has a chapter on it. Dharmpal and others have written on it.

[shiv]

Is there any video on youtube which demonstrates the sounds funda?
If not, I'm sure someone here can convince one of the 1% to help him spread the work..... get them to record the sounds.

Learning to chant the Vedas accurately is enough. The meanings can sink in later. But this is a separate exercise from undoing the damage that has been done. Both must go on simultaneously. I don't think the concept of OIT chowkidars can be dismissed. They are a necessary, in fact unavoidable, evil. Vedic soosais. Those who have a will to learn the chanting of the Vedas need to do that.

[KLP Dubey]

India has now lost much of that Vedic tradition that Dubey seems to represent and is filled with people such as myself, Rajesh and Talageri who are both ignorant and incapable of rising to the level demanded by Dubey. This is a fact that cannot be remedied by sarcasm or derision. It may be sad, but it has to be faced. It is odd that both ManishH and Dubey who both reveal some knowledge of the Vedas have displayed the very sarcasm and derision that the entre community of Brahmins stands accused of displaying.

For more than 100 years now, the task of upholding the Veda has been carried by "non-brahmins", mainly through Vedanta and related disciplines. The last Last time I checked, folks like Aurobindo, Vivekananda, Chinmayananda, Ramdev etc mentioned by another poster are not brahmins. Neither for that matter was Shankara (he had no caste) nor any of the Shankaracharyas upholding the Veda today.

It is high time that Mimamsa is also carried by people of intelligence, commitment, and accomplishment irrespective of their origin, whether FC/OBC/SC/ST. Even enlightened "frocks and beards" could do it, since the Veda has no theological or religious barriers. It is eternal and impersonal, and is not the "property" of Indians or Hindus. He/she who speaks the Veda correctly becomes its rshi.

Even considering the Vedic pathashalas currently admitting (mainly) brahmin students, these kids are hardly from the "upper strata" of society. Most are poor or lower middle class.

So any attempt to paint the current upholders of the Veda as some sort of "elite", should hopefully end right here.

What should be rebuked, however, is the loss of sanity/commonsense/shame/ethical foundation of those are now intent on finding primitive tribals and chieftains, internecine squabbles, and the like in the Veda...all because of some kind of anger or grievance (whether real or imagined) against the AIT or western historical scholarship.

I dare Talageri or Elst or even internet warriors like RajeshA, Arjun, etc to visit a Vedic pathashala and tell these kids that they are spending their whole lives reciting poems that contain accounts of Indian tribals and their mundane struggles.

As mentioned in the Bhagavadgita: "krodhAd bhavati sammOhah, sammOhAt smRtivibhramaH, smRtibhramshAd buddhinAshO buddhinAshAt praNashyati".

KL

[shiv]

So any attempt to paint the current upholders of the Veda as some sort of "elite", should hopefully end right here.

Oh the people who uphold the Vedas are elite alright. Please don't confuse jati with elite. That is exactly how this mess started. It is knowledge of the Vedas that created the elite.

But the number of this elite is so pathetically small that your derision of the methods used by others is misplaced. Your advice and knowledge are welcome, but not your contempt and derision. You sound as if 90% of Indians who do not know the Vedas but are still concerned about the state off affairs are completely useless unless they follow the method you advise them to follow.

[Anand K]

So any attempt to paint the current upholders of the Veda as some sort of "elite", should hopefully end right here.

IMO, knowledge of the scriptures ceased to become a ticket to the big leagues since the end of patronage by ruling powers. Till not-so-long-ago, knowledge of scriptures = power, wealth & prestige. That gravy train ended it's run years ago.... Still, it did provide an initial momentum for higher castes to enter the ummm... modern age.

Even now, rituals are conducted by Brahmins, only auxiliary rituals are conducted by other castes (like the Marar sub-caste of Nairs oversee the 16 Day Ceremonies after death).... Also, certain temples are bound to accept only Brahmins from XYZ families citing traditions. A lot of the "shackles" still remain. I mean, is there a chance now that a competent SC student who has done the whole drill in Vedic Paathshala become the Tantri/Chief Priest of a major temple? Weren't Vivekanada, Aurobindo, Narayana Guru etc marching to their own beats and create their own parallel institutions? Did a major temple confer honorary priesthood or ask them to grace their rituals or to conduct major Vedic ceremonies? I remember that Paramahamsa particularly faced a lot of flak from certain Mahasabhas and IIRC Aurobindo was persona non-grata for his "previous ashram".

And while KLPD-ji has a point on the larger meaning and primordial/supernatural origin (well, not 400% impossible) of the Vedas, IMO closing it to historical analysis will have negative effect on OIT/AMT/AIT debate. I mean, this is a major area... perhaps THE arena.

[KLP Dubey]

To that extent I think Dubey's attitude of "OIT is right" is useful. At the very least it does not interfere with the need that people who are less well equipped with knowledge to use their time and skills to fight a vicious group.

Sir, my very first post on this thread (in page 97) began with the phrase: "The Out-of-India theory is indeed correct...". So I am not stating any new conclusion now.

I have stopped writing posts with "details" in them because it become apparent that what the "missionary" posters want is not substance but "busy work".

The problem is that this is a non-scientific area, in which disagreements and arguments
cannot be settled by a well-designed hypothesis and experiment. We have arbitrary assumptions, circular theories, and concocted fantasies. No matter how many volumes Oak, Rajesh, Talageri, Elst etc write on this topic, it will be an ongoing debate that has no resolution.

I'd much rather not give up the demands of my scientific career and divert my time to such activities.

Nevertheless, any carefully summarized details that I did give, have met with a deafening silence. Not one peep from any of them.

I even gave RajeshA an eminently falsifiable hypothesis supported by initial data. I explained how one of the most important Suktas on "Vasishtha" (the one that describes the "birth of vasishtha") has nothing to do with a human being of that name. I asked him to then list the other instances of occurrence of the same word and then conclude whether there was a human by that name in the Veda or not.

The conclusion is significant: it will immediately put to rest the idea that the families maintaining the Veda have some biological connection with "human Rgvedic composers". But no, these people "want more data".

Now the Anukramani: Except for a sole commentator, nobody in 3000+ years of Indian inquiry has given it any serious weightage as being authentic. Nobody in their right mind would claim a word to have vedic authenticity if he couldn't tell me the accent on the word (which is part of the word itself). Talageri completely ignores an entire dimension of Veda analysis.

The response I got from Talageri was: "whether or not the names are accented, the fact is that the anukramani gives the names of the rshis." These are the kind of people who are being touted as the "great hope" of OIT.

Imagine a bridegroom who goes to the marriage hall and finds waiting for him on the mandap, not the girl he selected, but rather a dressed-up monkey. If the boy's parents are shameless enough, they will tell him: "Look, it does not matter if it is the same girl or not, the fact is that whatever is on the mandap is dressed like a bride and your muhurta is here, so get married." And if the fellow is dull enough, he will agree to it. That is basically what Talageri is asking me to do.

I do not have anything against the fact that Talageri is a "bank officer" or something like that. But before writing volumes of details based upon invalid foundations, he should have at least bounced his ideas off knowledgeable people. It seems his main intellectual critics are Elst, Rajaram, and similar characters who know next to nothing about the Veda.

Sorry if I appear pessimistic. I am really offended that such is the state of affairs.

That said, the OIT is correct, as I mentioned in page 97.

KL

[shiv]

I dare Talageri or Elst or even internet warriors like RajeshA, Arjun, etc to visit a Vedic pathashala and tell these kids that they are spending their whole lives reciting poems that contain accounts of Indian tribals and their mundane struggles.

This is actually getting silly Dubeyji. You are challenging people to do things that they have never shown any intent of doing because you are seeing, in their attitudes, an insult to the Vedas. But I would call your challenge as either ignorant or hypocritical because you fail to mention that the Elsts Talageris, Rajeshs and Arjuns are merely fighting off the Witzels on territory that the latter have already encroached on by declaring the Vedas as a tribal horse eating society.

Whether you like it or not that Rubicon of insulting the Vedas has been crossed over a century ago. By simply challenging one group you are only making a public display of that fact that you feel insulted by the latest actions of a group of people who have joined a controversy that has been there for over a century.

Would you be able to say how anything would change if Elst, Talageri, Rajesh and Arjun apologised to you for the affront they have caused and agreed to learn the Vedas instead of holding the AIT people at bay on their ground. Surely your advice can have many takers but you seem to want one specific group to take your advice.

[Agnimitra]

You sound as if 90% of Indians who do not know the Vedas but are still concerned about the state off affairs are completely useless unless they follow the method you advise them to follow.

This is absolutely a valid point. The contributions that are worthwhile in this period of re-forming the Veda's imprint on India and the world can be in the forms of:
- friendship,
- of defense,
- of organization,
- of dissemination,
- of application,
- of research reports on results,
- and of finance.

I believe (and I think what Dubey ji was trying to say) was that much needed efforts like OIT and other things must be in balance with all the other forms of regeneration, and in its correct priority order. An AIT-OIT spat between Nit Witzel and Shrikant Kolaveri must not crowd out the actual self-descriptive nature of Veda. Similarly, big-big finance and dissemniation of the outer shell and form of Veda may flourish, but is useless if there is no understanding. Etc.

shiv ji, one more thing - In your recent posts you repeatedly characterized Veda and Sanskritic theory of language as something very arcane and difficult, and needing great intellectual prowess. You even said that you and RajeshA ji and Talageri ji were "incapable" of undertaking it. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic. In case you weren't being sarcastic, that is pure rubbish. Any idiot can learn Sanskrit and thereby gain entry into a practical environment where he can examine the words he uses from many enriching angles that remain hidden in other languages. Anyone can learn to memorize the Veda in its outer form, etc. Today India churns out millions of doctors, engineers, etc., each and everyone of these is capable of doing their part. Its not "1%" at all.

Veda depends on species-wide faculties, not on specific bio-educational endowments - provided whatever natural potentials one has are given full opportunity to be fully developed. This is why the birth-based caste system that somehow formed for centuries was not only the ethically wrong way to go about it, but it was against the principles of the Veda itself. Having a corporatized network of schools that are open to all who show the required potential is the correct method. Releasing those whose basic purpose and potential lies in serving Veda in a different form is a requirement of the template of propagation. Not having the valves to assimilate potential Brahmins or release potential kshatriyas/vaishyas/shudras into the body politic leads to blockages of the kind you as a doctor are familiar with.

The individualized techniques or forms of serving Veda depend on the specific individual talents or occlusions. It is relative to the self.

[shiv]

Imagine a bridegroom who goes to the marriage hall and finds waiting for him on the mandap, not the girl he selected, but rather a dressed-up monkey. If the boy's parents are shameless enough, they will tell him: "Look, it does not matter if it is the same girl or not, the fact is that whatever is on the mandap is dressed like a bride and your muhurta is here, so get married." And if the fellow is dull enough, he will agree to it. That is basically what Talageri is asking me to do.
<snip>

Sorry if I appear pessimistic. I am really offended that such is the state of affairs.

In general I do not argue with analogies because they invariably divert from the topic in hand. But if the boy himself was a monkey wanting to marry a human the girl's parents would be right in offering that monkey a suitable simian bride.

What Talageri started doing was not an argument with you, but with monkeys who are carrying on a tradition of insulting the Vedas starting before you or I were born. The field of argument is hardly the real Vedas but an imaginary strawman field created by AIT people.

Now if Talageri was to follow your advice, he would have to take generations of AIT people and tell them the truth about the Vedas as you have done. I suspect you would be satisfied if he had done that.

I put it to you that this was the very attitude that Vedic scholars had when they taught the Vedas to the AIT monkeys, imagining that they would see the light. They did not and the went right ahead and wrote down and mistranslated the Vedas. Telling people like Talageri and Rajesh to stop fighting is like going back to the days when Vedic scholars naively taught the Joneses, Griffits and Max Mullers of the world in the belief that those people would become enlightened rather than become rapists of the Vedas. That trust did not work and what we see today is the result of the naive trust that teaching the Vedas to random people does not give consistent results. The people need to be culturally attuned to accept that knowledge.

[Agnimitra]

The people need to be culturally attuned to accept that knowledge.

This is very true. Being attuned in terms of one's grip on reality, in terms of one's ability to communicate, and in terms of one's affection and trust with one's teacher or the Veda itself are basic rudiments before knowledge is actually contacted.

Therefore, Vedic core must not be exposed in the arena of rascals. Rather, a sort of alter-Veda must be created in order to rebuff the enemy's point.

In terms of logical debate, Madhva has deemed vitanDa (arguing merely to cause the discomfiture of the opponent, rather than to flesh out truth) as legitimate when the opponent is not really interested in knowledge, but is an agent of a partisan agenda.

[shiv]

shiv ji, one more thing - In your recent posts you repeatedly characterized Veda and Sanskritic theory of language as something very arcane and difficult, and needing great intellectual prowess. You even said that you and RajeshA ji and Talageri ji were "incapable" of undertaking it. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic. In case you weren't being sarcastic, that is pure rubbish. Any idiot can learn Sanskrit and thereby gain entry into a practical environment where he can examine the words he uses from many enriching angles that remain hidden in other languages. Anyone can learn to memorize the Veda in its outer form, etc. Today India churns out millions of doctors, engineers, etc., each and everyone of these is capable of doing their part. Its not "1%" at all.

Carl there was some sarcasm there. The Vedas are devoid of emotion. Humans are not. Humans need to be handled appropriately. A simple statement like "learn Sanskrit" or "Learn to recite the Veda" has a far more positive impact than jumping into the fray and calling someone out for supporting the sanctity of the Vedas in the wrong, possibly misguided, way. The latter is like whipping your madrassa student who is trying to learn from you.

Imparting knowledge is a skill that not everyone acquires. You do yourself injustice in your humility by claiming ignorance, but your ability to communicate is easier for someone to follow than vulgar challenges and dares.

[Anand K]

I always wondered..... weren't our ancestors (before the British) interested in history? I mean, historiography and writing scriptures aside (and the inconclusive debate on poor Indian history keeping and Puranas etc etc).... didn't they wonder about the temples and buildings which were ancient even during their times? There are evidences that ancient Chinese and even Arap kingdoms conducted archaeological (though rudimentary) research.

Wasn't there a natural desire to append to the existing corpus of knowledge and information? Or were the keepers of knowledge too engrossed in mundane aspects and missing the woods for the trees to seek this different knowledge? Wasn't there ONE skeptic scientist-sociologist/out-of-box thinker in 500AD? I don't refer to the Bhakti type revivals but the critical/rational approach to existing corpus. I mean, a Subramiam Bharati or Vivekananda comes to mind but these are exceptions.... and happened in modern times. And we can't blame only Islam or Brits for this, can we? I mean, if the 6000BC new timeline is to be followed, what happened to Mimamsa and Upanishadic and materialistic ideas and skepticism type "hatke" thought for the last few thousand years?

Doesn't this say that actual inquiry and thought and originally fluid caste system devolved, due to our own weaknesses and vagaries, into feeding existing bloodline based social structures and other narrow aims?

PS: I keep asking for contemporary sources on socio-religious analysis of "why we suck and how do all these guys keep conquering us" but get no answer.

[KLP Dubey]

Telling people like Talageri and Rajesh to stop fighting is like going back to the days when Vedic scholars naively taught the Joneses, Griffits and Max Mullers of the world in the belief that those people would become enlightened rather than become rapists of the Vedas. That trust did not work and what we see today is the result of the naive trust that teaching the Vedas to random people does not give consistent results. The people need to be culturally attuned to accept that knowledge.

I am not requesting Talageri, Elst, RajeshA etc to throw in the towel. I am asking them to fight the right battles. There is so much else that OIT can do without even touching the Veda. There is no urgency to win this "Veda" battle at such a cost. We can take some time to do the whole thing right. The current decision is not the type exhorted by Krishna in the BG, nor a Chanakyan type of subterfuge for the greater good. It is plain and simple "shooting oneself in the foot", "sawing off the branch one is sitting on", type of thing.

I would suggest that Talageri's voluminous works be archived/tabled, to be revisited later if necessary. This chapter of Indians making fools of themselves by trying to find history in the Veda, egged on by various extra-nationals, should be closed and we can all take a thankful deep breath.

Just my 2 paisa.

KL

[shiv]

Therefore, Vedic core must not be exposed in the arena of rascals. Rather, a sort of alter-Veda must be created in order to rebuff the enemy's point.

In terms of logical debate, Madhva has deemed vitanDa (arguing merely to cause the discomfiture of the opponent, rather than to flesh out truth) as legitimate when the opponent is not really interested in knowledge, but is an agent of a partisan agenda.

Ha! So that is the Sanskrit word for trolling!

It is ideal that the AIT people who are completely ignorant of the Vedas be fought by people who are equally ignorant of the Vedas but are sympathetic to the upholders of the Vedas. There is a huge difference between the uneducated businessman who pays 10 lakhs to a Sanskrit school and Harvard Professor who translates the Veda. The latter will claim to know the Veda and rape it from the inside. The former makes no such claim, but supports the Veda nevertheless. Knowledge of the Vedas is insufficient to thwart ignorant rascals. Knowledge of street fighting is all that is required.

[shiv]

I always wondered..... weren't our ancestors (before the British) interested in history? I mean, historiography and writing scriptures aside (and the inconclusive debate on poor Indian history keeping and Puranas etc etc).... didn't they wonder about the temples and buildings which were ancient even during their times? There are evidences that ancient Chinese and even Arap kingdoms conducted archaeological (though rudimentary) research.

Wasn't there a natural desire to append to the existing corpus of knowledge and information? Or were the keepers of knowledge too engrossed in mundane aspects and missing the woods for the trees to seek this different knowledge? Wasn't there ONE skeptic scientist-sociologist/out-of-box thinker in 500AD? I don't refer to the Bhakti type revivals but the critical/rational approach to existing corpus. I mean, a Subramiam Bharati or Vivekananda comes to mind but these are exceptions.... and happened in modern times. And we can't blame only Islam or Brits for this, can we? I mean, if the 6000BC new timeline is to be followed, what happened to Mimamsa and Upanishadic and materialistic ideas and skepticism type "hatke" thought for the last few thousand years?

Doesn't this say that actual inquiry and thought and originally fluid caste system devolved, due to our own weaknesses and vagaries, into feeding existing bloodline based social structures and other narrow aims?

PS: I keep asking for contemporary sources on socio-religious analysis of "why we suck and how do all these guys keep conquering us" but get no answer.

AnandK, you just don't want to believe history as handed down to you in the Indian tradition. You feel that the British package is right. It is the British and Islamic package that taught you that your kind are losers. But there is another thread started by me under burqa for this. It's been around for 8-9 months at least. Not here. OT

[KLP Dubey]

Therefore, Vedic core must not be exposed in the arena of rascals. Rather, a sort of alter-Veda must be created in order to rebuff the enemy's point.

Excellent!

No need to even create it. The "alter-Veda" is there for free, in the form of the Atharva Veda, the Brahmanas, and the Upanishads. They are the "monkey on the mandap" (in reference to my recent post).

KL

[Anand K]

AnandK, you just don't want to believe history as handed down to you in the Indian tradition. You feel that the British package is right. It is the British and Islamic package that taught you that your kind are losers. But there is another thread started by me under burqa for this. It's been around for 8-9 months at least. Not here. OT

I suggest you don't put labels on me. You used to question a lot of Vedic traditions and dismissed them outright, didn't you? IIRC those post-funeral ones and the marriage ceremonies etc a few years back. What made you change that outlook, advancing age or advancing knowledge, may I piskoanalyze?

My question still stands, and it has nothing to do with what British think about us.

PS: Did the "did we suck" snippet set you off and made you think on "Inadequacy of Indians: thingie? Self criticism begins with "Do I suck" doubts... and some scholar in Prithviraj Chauhan's time must have thouhgt on those lines when Ghauri took over.

[Arjun]

An AIT-OIT spat between Nit Witzel and Shrikant Kolaveri must not crowd out the actual self-descriptive nature of Veda.

No danger of that happening at all. There are enough and more books and scholarly articles in the West for example that debunk creationism, re-examine the Bible in a hundred different ways etc...Doesn't have any impact at all on the EJ faith-fools, whose worldwide numbers keep increasing irrespective.

The world of scholasticm and that of faith/meta-physics are quite distinct and there is no danger at all of one influencing the other. The only way the former can influence the latter is when it is either taken up into the primary education system of the country or becomes a football in the country's politics. At the current point, AIT which is a scholastic theory does influence the masses due to it having become an object of politics and because of the retards who have it as part of school curriculum. The Anti-AIT school's immediate goals are merely to come up with arguments to reverse these two aspects. Longer-term goals of Anti-AIT / OIT are different - but need not stop us from supporting the shorter-term goals.

[Agnimitra]

It is ideal that the AIT people who are completely ignorant of the Vedas be fought by people who are equally ignorant of the Vedas but are sympathetic to the upholders of the Vedas. There is a huge difference between the uneducated businessman who pays 10 lakhs to a Sanskrit school and Harvard Professor who translates the Veda. The latter will claim to know the Veda and rape it from the inside. The former makes no such claim, but supports the Veda nevertheless. Knowledge of the Vedas is insufficient to thwart ignorant rascals. Knowledge of street fighting is all that is required.

Reminds one of the story in the Hitopadesha, of the lion, mouse and cat. There's this lion whose residence in his cave is troubled due to the pestilence of rats. Having somehow found a niche in the cave, the rats regularly creep up to the sleeping lion and chewing away at his mane, which is now looking rather tattered and un-leonine. Not to mention they keep disturbing his slumber, and he is now sleep-deprived and miserable in life. But the lion himself couldn't catch the rats, he was too big. They would scamper away in different directions and regroup in their rat-network. Finally the lion decided that the mean-sized enemy cannot be caught by the large victim, but a smaller intermediary is needed. So he finds a cat, feeds him regularly, and puts him to the task. The cat has no trouble pouncing on any rat that dares to come out of their ratholes, and the rest of the mice decide to stay out of sight. The lion is now enjoying his cave restfully. Because he can rest in his native cave, he has more energy to do things outside the cave too, and presumably flourishes. Finally after some time there are no more rats left inside the cave, and the lion simply refuses to feed the cat anymore. In time the cat grows feeble and dies, leaving only the lion.

AIT-Naziz and AIT-sepoys are the rats. From time to time they creep up and bite -- like that BBC documentary created a few months back that regurgitated AIT rubbish that even AIT-supporters admit has been out of the books for 60 years. Yet, in the rat-network of Western-funded and Westoxified academia, these documentary-rats find shelter to retreat into. The lion is Vedic culture. Being harassed in his own cave (India) he cannot rest, much less act vigorously within or outside India. So killer-cats are needed.

This much is common sense. However, shiv ji I think one point is being repeatedly lost sight of. The killer cats must explicitly be connected to -- and be seen to be connected to -- the Lion. It cannot be an independent operation. Everyone watching the cat-and-mouse game between AIT-and-OIT must become more and more aware that this is about The Lion, and they must be absorbed in The Lion. At no cost must any curious onlooker think that the scene is about the cat-and-mouse game itself.

Therefore, I had suggested that if and when Shri Talageri's and others' weapons are used, they must be presented after a "preamble" of sorts. A preamble that lays down what Veda is traditionally considered by a billion Indians for millennia. And having made that clear, the puny, unscientific, illogical pestilence of AIT'ers must be juxtaposed with the scientific and epistemological colossus that the Veda is. This can be done by showing that its self-descriptors are in vogue in the highest echelons of modern science itself. Thus, the AIT'ers must be humiliated by comparison with existing wisdom and science in their own societies. Having done that, the OIT killer-cat assault may begin with the words -- "But let us see the possibilities IF the assumptions of the AIT'ers are to be taken seriously..."

[Agnimitra]

An AIT-OIT spat between Nit Witzel and Shrikant Kolaveri must not crowd out the actual self-descriptive nature of Veda.

No danger of that happening at all. There are enough and more books and scholarly articles in the West for example that debunk creationism, re-examine the Bible in a hundred different ways etc...Doesn't have any impact at all on the EJ faith-fools, whose worldwide numbers keep increasing irrespective.

After all these posts its amazing you still consider Veda to be about "faith(fools)" and thereby immune to (pseudo)scientific attacks.

The BBC recently ran a documentary that said with finality that the Vedics were having drunken orgies in Uzbekistan pretty recently before coming into India. "No danger of that happening at all?"

1. Veda is not about "faith". In fact, in his characteristically acerbic style, Dubey ji has excoriated even Indic faith-based traditions for allowing Veda to devolve into "faith"-based duplication.

2. The fact is that political parties even within India do treat even faith-based books like the Ramayan as documents of historical invasions, and you can't deny it has had a real impact on the ground there, in terms of switching faith from one book to another.

[shiv]

AnandK, you just don't want to believe history as handed down to you in the Indian tradition. You feel that the British package is right. It is the British and Islamic package that taught you that your kind are losers. But there is another thread started by me under burqa for this. It's been around for 8-9 months at least. Not here. OT

I suggest you don't put labels on me. You used to question a lot of Vedic traditions and dismissed them outright, didn't you? IIRC those post-funeral ones and the marriage ceremonies etc a few years back. What made you change that outlook, advancing age or advancing knowledge, may I piskoanalyze?

My question still stands, and it has nothing to do with what British think about us.

PS: Did the "did we suck" snippet set you off and made you think on "Inadequacy of Indians: thingie? Self criticism begins with "Do I suck" doubts... and some scholar in Prithviraj Chauhan's time must have thouhgt on those lines when Ghauri took over.

You are welcome to piskoanalyse. Be my guest. Could be age, could be knowledge. You asked and I answered. You don't like the answer? Sorry. Here is what you asked. Was that a royal "we" or "us" in your question? Don't include me in your thoughts unless you want me to state your thoughts for you

why we suck and how do all these guys keep conquering us

[Arjun]

After all these posts its amazing you still consider Veda to be about "faith(fools)" and thereby immune to (pseudo)scientific attacks.

The term I used was 'faith/meta-physics'. I do consider the Vedas as Meta-physics.

[Anand K]

The BBC recently ran a documentary that said with finality that the Vedics were having drunken orgies in Uzbekistan pretty recently before coming into India. "No danger of that happening at all?"

back in my time the rather "Dionysian"...or sexual/barbaric aspect of Soma ceremonies of the Aryans with heaps of innuendo used to be a common feature of jholawalala history forums and symposiums. This was contrasted the sober, planned, orderly, classless utopian society of the Dravidians who ran the IVC.
The horror of it all....

[KLP Dubey]

Therefore, I had suggested that if an when Shri Talageri's and others' weapons are used, they must be presented after a preamble of sorts. A preamble that lays down what Veda is traditionally considered by a billion Indians for millennia. And having made that clear, the pny, unscientific, illogical pestilence of AIT'ers must be juxtaposed with the scientific and epistemological colossus that the Veda is. This can be done by showing that its self-descriptors are in vogue in the highest echelons of modern science itself. Thus, the AIT'ers must be humiliated by comparison with existing wisdom and science in their own societies. Having done that, the OIT killer-cat assault may begin with the words -- "But let us see the possibilities IF the assumptions of the AIT'ers are to be taken seriously..."

I would be totally on board with such an approach, assuming it was not just "lip service", but rather a concise summary/chapter of well-established and intellectually sound arguments regarding the lack of historical foundation in the Veda. I am not focusing only on Talageri, but taking him as an example, he might have an expert co-author on those aspects (please, NOT Elst, Rajaram, Kak, the usual suspects).

Then begin with : "However, falana-falana has claimed a historical approach to the Veda...We can show, using the same types of assumptions, that the exact opposite view of history is arrived at, thereby falsifying these individuals..."

However I suspect Talageri (again taking him as a specific example) cannot do this without invalidating his previous works entirely. The reason being, he has claimed the Anukramani-based approach as being "novel". It is his, and not an assumption of the AIT. Not even the AITers have dared to assume that the Anukramanis give an authentic list of "human composers from the Vedic age", but Talageri has unfortunately been the only one to step in the puddle.

KL

[Agnimitra]

The term I used was 'faith/meta-physics'. I do consider the Vedas as Meta-physics.

Solid Purva Mimamsaka metaphysics is not immune to or divorced from the sciences and logics of the age. They were votaries of Realism, unlike the Idealism of Buddhist and Advaitist or any other "metaphysics". So there are different types of "metaphysics" too -- one that supports faithfools and other mystagogical cults, and one that derides them. all faith-based religions have their "meta-physicists" who do the "thinking" for the masses LOL.

So Vedas are neither for faithfools, nor Idealists. Vedicists have a deep interest and connection with real, solid science, and this physical universe.

[Anand K]

You are welcome to piskoanalyse. Be my guest. Could be age, could be knowledge. You asked and I answered. You don't like the answer? Sorry. Here is what you asked. Was that a royal "we" or "us" in your question? Don't include me in your thoughts unless you want me to state your thoughts for you

why we suck and how do all these guys keep conquering us

Not the "Royal Us"....
I was imagining how an exasperated Indic would think after the powerful Shahis were defeated repeatedly by upstart desert folk..... how Hindu kingdoms vied to support Ghaznavi's invasion and the local King fled with his household and treasury when the force approached. Well, the "Is it I or is this damned Kaliyug" type questions that should have plagued the better minds of those times.

AFAIK a certain Chanakya felt the were lacking a lot of things when a megalomaniac led, boy-lovin' Greeks in short skirts threatened India. (I think I have to add the "This is the mainstream timeline" disclaimer here ). Shankaracharya must have been similarly dismayed when he saw the way Buddhism rolled over the old Gods and even affected political structures. The comparatively open minded Ibn Batuta also made certain observations on the kupamanduka aspect....

I guess this is where this P.D. in the G.D. ends.

[Arjun]

So there are different types of "metaphysics" too -- one that supports faithfools, and one that derides them. all faith-based religions have their "meta-physicists" who do the "thinking" for the masses LOL.

So Vedas are neither for faithfools, nor Idealists. Vedicists have a deep interest and connection with real, solid science, and this physical universe.

True...the Semetic religions are largely about faith with a nano-thin layer of metaphysics on the top.

Mimamsa may be more about meta-physics, but it also undeniable that at entry level it is all about faith. The realization of truth may come with mastery of the field - but when a new entrant is told to memorize a bunch of Shlokas and even told that the true meaning of the Shlokas may not be known - ONLY faith (in the power of the Vedas) can sustain the entrant in his initial years.

[shiv]

Therefore, I had suggested that if and when Shri Talageri's and others' weapons are used, they must be presented after a "preamble" of sorts.

This I agree. But the consciousness to do this is only appearing now. While the Vedas have been a story of horse cooking hordes for over a century, most Indian efforts at negating this have simply been sidelined and wiped off the landscape and there are many.

Asking AIT Nazis to respect the Vedas for what they are rather than what they imagine they are has never worked, but what you are saying is that opponents of AIT put up a disclaimer "Whereas the Vedas represent eternal cosmic sounds and are not meant to be interpreted as a written text carrying a story or narrative of any sort, we herewith offer counter points to the arguments made by the misinterpretation of the Vedas by an uncalled for and meaningless transcription of the sounds of the Vedas into written text and subsequent attempts at translation into various languages"

Is this correct?

[Agnimitra]

shiv ji,

Yes, a "disclaimer". An extended disclaimer with several caveats. And loaded with either crushing (sorry, healthy) contempt or a supercilious aloofness that Dubey ji has demonstrated. Intellectual intimidation is a necessary ingredient. We will test the "Sanskrit" and Chhandas skills of every AIT rat that cares to stick his/her head out of his rathole. We will have a cat that scours every "outlet" of this rat-network, starting with the networks inside the cave, aka India's school system.

[Arjun]

Therefore, I had suggested that if and when Shri Talageri's and others' weapons are used, they must be presented after a "preamble" of sorts. A preamble that lays down what Veda is traditionally considered by a billion Indians for millennia. And having made that clear, the puny, unscientific, illogical pestilence of AIT'ers must be juxtaposed with the scientific and epistemological colossus that the Veda is. This can be done by showing that its self-descriptors are in vogue in the highest echelons of modern science itself. Thus, the AIT'ers must be humiliated by comparison with existing wisdom and science in their own societies. Having done that, the OIT killer-cat assault may begin with the words -- "But let us see the possibilities IF the assumptions of the AIT'ers are to be taken seriously..."

I agree with this, and I have been saying the same thing as well though in different words (that Talageri's logic is based on the hypothesis of historicity of the Vedas). All it requires is for this hypothesis to be stated upfront, if it has not already been done.

[Agnimitra]

True...the Semetic religions are largely about faith with a nano-thin layer of metaphysics on the top.

Its not just about Semitic religions, but a lot of Indic religion too. Anything that is founded upon arbitrary "authority" in the form of a synthetic "god" or a raccoon eyed "yogi" who has brought down "divya-jyoti", and which starts off with un-intuitive idealism that one must accept. That's why I didn't only mention Semitic faithfools, but included Buddhists and Advaitists too, and a good lot of Vaishnavism also (though Madhva's logic was closest to the Mimamsaka position).

Mimamsa may be more about meta-physics, but it also undeniable that at entry level it is all about faith. The realization of truth may come with mastery of the field - but when a new entrant is told to memorize a bunch of Shlokas and even told that the true meaning of the Shlokas may not be known - ONLY faith (in the power of the Vedas) can sustain the entrant in his initial years.

No, that is how it has become, and that is a big part of the rot. There are several routes -- each with its own gradient -- through which one can approach Veda-mantra:

1. Education to equip one to think more broadly and deeply,
2. Change of environment to effect a clarity of mind by removing oneself from the restimulators of certain thought-patterns,
3. Increasing or reducing the amount of bio-physical possessions one is associated with, so as to reach a point of satisfaction and control,
Etc. all these form part of the purushaarthas.

Each step of the gradient is based on reasonable empiricism. For that matter, trying anything requires some "faith", but here we are not talking about unreasonable faith. Remember that Mimsaka-sutras define Dharma as always being in future-tense. But this is the nature of a "postulate", which is the eventual status of Veda-mantra.

People are not just to be evangelized and picked off the street and asked to start committing the Veda to rote, AFAIU. however, sitting i the presence of some yogis, people can sometimes experience a state of mind that immediately opens them up to wanting to learn Veda. Even then, personal spadework will be needed to sustain the enthusiasm.

[JE Menon]

KLP Dubey,

I'm not sure if you recognise it, but what people are doing here is asking for YOUR help; in a roundabout way.

Nobody on here, for the same reasons which you listed, personal and professional commitment, can now pick up and start from scratch and win this thing decisively. Practical realities. But you are already armed with the required information and you know how to win. I think the pain you see here, and I feel it is pain, not real antagonism, is because of that apparent reluctance on your side to get involved.

You will note that no one has actually disagreed or disputed fundamentally what you have stated. In fact, pretty much everyone agrees with you. That's probably because what you are saying appears immediately sound (no pun intended) to pretty much everyone. They get it. But they can't take it forward without you or, at the least, without your help.

So please help.

[Murugan]

JE Menon Saar

+1

***

Kishenlal ji

यावत्स्वस्थो ह्ययं देहो यावन्मृत्युश्च दूरतः
तावदात्महितं कुर्यात् प्राणान्ते किं करिष्यति
- चाणक्य नीति

[Adrija]

JEM saar....

+100

Dubeyji, need your help here...............PLEASE PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE

[RajeshA]

Reminds one of the story in the Hitopadesha, of the lion, mouse and cat. There's this lion whose residence in his cave is troubled due to the pestilence of rats. Having somehow found a niche in the cave, the rats regularly creep up to the sleeping lion and chewing away at his mane, which is now looking rather tattered and un-leonine. Not to mention they keep disturbing his slumber, and he is now sleep-deprived and miserable in life. But the lion himself couldn't catch the rats, he was too big. They would scamper away in different directions and regroup in their rat-network. Finally the lion decided that the mean-sized enemy cannot be caught by the large victim, but a smaller intermediary is needed. So he finds a cat, feeds him regularly, and puts him to the task. The cat has no trouble pouncing on any rat that dares to come out of their ratholes, and the rest of the mice decide to stay out of sight. The lion is now enjoying his cave restfully. Because he can rest in his native cave, he has more energy to do things outside the cave too, and presumably flourishes. Finally after some time there are no more rats left inside the cave, and the lion simply refuses to feed the cat anymore. In time the cat grows feeble and dies, leaving only the lion.

AIT-Naziz and AIT-sepoys are the rats. From time to time they creep up and bite -- like that BBC documentary created a few months back that regurgitated AIT rubbish that even AIT-supporters admit has been out of the books for 60 years. Yet, in the rat-network of Western-funded and Westoxified academia, these documentary-rats find shelter to retreat into. The lion is Vedic culture. Being harassed in his own cave (India) he cannot rest, much less act vigorously within or outside India. So killer-cats are needed.

This much is common sense. However, shiv ji I think one point is being repeatedly lost sight of. The killer cats must explicitly be connected to -- and be seen to be connected to -- the Lion. It cannot be an independent operation. Everyone watching the cat-and-mouse game between AIT-and-OIT must become more and more aware that this is about The Lion, and they must be absorbed in The Lion. At no cost must any curious onlooker think that the scene is about the cat-and-mouse game itself.

Therefore, I had suggested that if and when Shri Talageri's and others' weapons are used, they must be presented after a "preamble" of sorts. A preamble that lays down what Veda is traditionally considered by a billion Indians for millennia. And having made that clear, the puny, unscientific, illogical pestilence of AIT'ers must be juxtaposed with the scientific and epistemological colossus that the Veda is. This can be done by showing that its self-descriptors are in vogue in the highest echelons of modern science itself. Thus, the AIT'ers must be humiliated by comparison with existing wisdom and science in their own societies. Having done that, the OIT killer-cat assault may begin with the words -- "But let us see the possibilities IF the assumptions of the AIT'ers are to be taken seriously..."

Carl ji,

I often wonder whether some wise Indians of old had really thought up of all the problems of the future! This Hitopadesh story is really quite a apt analogy for the issue at hand.

A minor quibble - I don't think the Lion really sees the rats as a plague. As we may be aware of, the learned Vedic fraternity's perhaps only contribution in the whole AIT debate has been in teaching all the nuances of the Vedic knowledge system to the Europeans, which the Europeans then used to first impose AIT onto India, and then to claim often superior scholarship rights over Sanskrit and Indian texts. Have we really seen a concerted intellectual retaliation from the learned Vedic fraternity to all the mauling that Indian history has undergone? I would say the Lion was a fool who invited the rats, which have become a plague in the whole jungle, who have eaten all the food in the jungle, and as such the animals of the jungle are being forced to get used to a diet of things unnatural.

So yes, I am critical of the learned Vedic fraternity of being the great fools of the Indian Civilization in not having the nose to smell the Western deceivers. Contrast this with the life of Kumārila Bhaṭṭa, who studied Buddhism in disguise! Why did he have to study Buddhism in disguise? Obviously one needs to be careful to whom one imparts the secrets of one's faith! But on seeing the keen interest of white faces, all these doubts were swept away, and the British were taught everything about the Vedic faith, and all the texts were laid open for them for analysis! Is it right to provide such a level of open access to those who had come to dominate us? So fools need to be called out as fools!

Secondly AIT is in business since 1784, when Sir William Jones established the Asiatic Society. So why has the Lion been silent and mute?

Thirdly where is all the Purva-Paksha that the learned Vedic fraternity was supposed to do on the Western thought and philosophy and history and society? Before Rajiv Malhotra came along, where are the books of systematic analysis churned out by the Lion?

So before we run to the Lion to provide us with leadership and sanction, I want the Lion to do some deep introspection of its own policies in the past and to provide some accountability of its miserable history of incompetence of the last 250 years or so. Another thing which just does not feel right, is the arrogance that the Lion brings to the table. Instead of showing some appreciation to the cat for carrying out the duties, which the Lion was supposed to do in the first place, what one sees is constant denigration of the ways of the cat, through abuses and sarcasm!

I would wish that the Lion takes up its responsibilities in earnest, but the Lion even after 228 odd years is still not ready, unwilling to understand strategy, unwilling to own up to his mistakes, unwilling to understand the enemy, unwilling to understand just how deep the hole is that we have dug up for ourselves.

I had proposed a working model earlier.

If you wish, you may call the Historicists the bad cops, those who do the dirty work, so that the good cops can look good! Or one can compare the Historicists with the CIA, who again do the dirty work, but the American President, by constantly criticizing human rights violations etc, and by remaining unaware of all the dirty CIA jobs, can look good and exude morality!

Regarding Preamble: One may have seen me writing something funny like "as per the Sanskritic reading of the Vedas"! What the hell does that mean?

It means that if one treats the Rigveda as a Sanskrit text, what are the conclusions one can derive from that? Mind you this says nothing about the Vedas themselves.

Talageri is working only on the "Sanskritic Reading of the Vedas" where all the proper nouns have been assigned some ontology in the real world and doing his analysis based on that.

When one writes "Sanskritic Reading of the Vedas", one is in fact acknowledging that the Vedas may in fact mean something totally different, and that the current meaning of the proper nouns, or for that matter the meaning of any sounds of the Vedas, may in fact not be known!

Somehow the Lion is still not happy!

I have been saying that one need not look at the Ṛṣis spoken of in Anukramaṇīs as being composers but only as the first who received the Vedas from whatever earlier source into the known human/Indic society - as the receivers.

Mind you this does not violate the axiom that the Vedas are eternal and apaurushiya!

Somehow the Lion is still not accommodating!

I have been asking the Lion to do develop a system of disclaimers and qualifiers that the "secular" scholars of Vedas can use when speaking of the Vedas, so that it is not seen as an attack on the Vedas, when discussing it.

Somehow the Lion is still not forthcoming!

I have been asking the Lion, in fact the whole learned Vedic fraternity, to further develop on the theory of how Sanskrit was gleaned from the Vedas, something which one can hold in front of the face of those who would claim, and understandably so, that first came Sanskrit and later on the Vedas were composed in it.

Somehow the Lion is still not obliging!

Perhaps calling others names, and showing oneself to be shoulders above such petty work, is more satisfying! That is perhaps more Lion-like. I don't know!

[Adrija]

RajeshA ji, a humble request- you have done yeoman work so far.........may I request you to be magnanimous and carry everyone together in this quest for burying this AIT canard, including, yes, the Ved parachuters as you call them. Let us not hold past grudges or try to force someone to acknowledge ancestral shortcomings......... PLEASE??

PLEASE PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE

[RajeshA]

Adrija ji,

I am not convinced as yet that the learned Vedic fraternity has really learned any lessons, as far as strategy goes, nor have they provided much of a leadership in pushing back the Western narrative of India.

Were Chanakya or Krishna easy on Chandragupta Maurya or on Arjun? No. They were critical of them and were willing to shake them out of their ambivalence stupor and indecisiveness! So when leaders are not ready to take up leadership, but there is no alternative to choose others, leaders need to be kicked in the butt and asked to stand up!

It doesn't help the learned Vedic fraternity and it certainly does not help the Indic cause if the learned Vedic community is spared criticism. Only if the learned Vedic fraternity knows that there is disaffection among the masses about their performance, would they come forward and do the needful.

As things stand, the line one gets to hear from them is still "I don't have the time for this!", "this AIT-OIT tussle is so beneath my level", "go get a life" or "Do this because it will work but don't ask me why it will work!"

BTW, it is not ancestral shortcomings that I allude to here. It is the shortcomings of various paramparas and way of thinking! It is the strategic shortcomings of the keepers of our various Vedic knowledge systems. I speak of only the last 228 years.

The thing is that there is rot that has befallen the traditional intellectual leadership of Desh, and I don't think that sparing the brickbats would be good. They are the keepers of the biggest treasures of the Indian civilization, so they better improve their act.

I wish it was different but it isn't! I am hopeful things would change, but I fear it needs some loud criticism.

However it doesn't mean, that I am going to be shifting my focus only to this! But considering the direction in which this discussion has moved in the past few days, I felt I needed to let my views be known.

[Murugan]

Adrija + 1

सुजनो न याति वैरं परहितनिरतो विनाशकालेऽपि
छेदेऽपि चन्दनतरुः सुरभयति मुखं कुठारस्य
- भर्तृहरि

Transliteration:
sujano na yaati vairaM parahitanirato vinaashakaale.pi
Chede.pi chandanataruH surabhayati mukhaM kuThaarasya
- bhartRuhari

Meaning of the subhAShita:

An affable person, (who is) always engrossed in the benefaction of others, shall not resort to hostility, even in times of (his own) downfall. Upon chopping, the sandal tree only smears its fragrance onto the blade of the axe.