Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[Satya_anveshi]

Apologies for OT post. Here is the site for those wanting to know more about Mimansa : http://www.mimamsa.org/texts/index.html

Under Original texts section there are some references to the Mimamsa books (including that of Jaimini's Purva Mimamsa Sutra and Artha Sangraha by Laughakshi Baskara)

the good thing is this thread has provided enough materia to this completely deracinated soul to spend/enjoy the rest of the life:)

[KLP Dubey]

Do you have any view about the possible origins of the Zend Avesta.

I believe we started discussing this at some point.

1. Could it have incorporated Vedic sounds which are now being misinterpreted as history?

Isn't it clear to both you and me that there are a number of corrupted Vedic sounds in the Avesta ?

It is not necessary that the Avesta is being "misinterpreted" as history. It likely *is* historical. There was nothing preventing the Iranians from using the Sanskrit meanings that the Indians had already developed. in fact, from what I gather, the Iranians themselves are using Sanskrit grammar and etymology in the present day to "reconstruct" their texts.

2. Would a scholar competent in the Vedic chants be able to comment on the sounds of Zoroastian Gathas?

It depends on what you mean by "competent". Recitation is one thing, but familiarity with Shiksha and Vyakarana is another. The latter is required for such comments.

3. Would you rather believe that the Zend Avesta was merely a poor copy of the Vedas by people who did not have a clue?

I have only a cursory knowledge of the Avesta and hence cannot judge. I am not sure if it is a "copy" of the Veda or not. How can one tell unless one analyzes the corrupted words in the first place ?

KL

[RajeshA]

Please do not take this the wrong way. I have nothing to do with Epics and Kathas. Honestly - and this is not a sarcasm - the work of Talageri should be discussed there, because essentially he is treating it as a Purana or an "Epic of the ancient tribals of India".

In that case, please feel free to set up a new thread to discuss "Nature of Veda". Many here, including I, would benefit from it.

I am only concerned with rational and unbiased arguments which will eventually establish OIT as correct.

If you have any information/estimates on the period of knowledge of Rigveda in the Indian society, or for that matter about the historicity of Sanskrit in India, please do share with us. After all, history claims are the main focus of this thread.

The only way AIT will die quickly is if a sufficient number of its stalwarts physically die of old age. As I mentioned in an earlier post, that is the most likely mode of death of AIT in the near future. Otherwise, it is a long haul.

AIT today is not simply an issue being espoused by Indologist professors sitting in universities across Europe and USA. Based on two-centuries of literature and opinion, the acceptance in the West has moved from theorizing about the non-Indian origins to having a society-wide acceptance of the Indo-European narrative with PIE language to boot, political movements based on Aryan supremacy, entertainment media like films etc. coming out espousing this view, etc. So the lie based on fraudulent literature has attained the status of truth, and nobody is really in a mood there to revisit the two-centuries of literature on the subject, with the Indologists producing ever more.

In India too, we have obediently aligned our historical narrative with that of the West, and we are producing generations upon generations of Indians dipped, nay immersed, in the AIT narrative, starting with their school books.

So AIT is not going away with AIT stalwarts just dying off. Others are there to take their place.

[KLP Dubey]

So AIT is not going away with AIT stalwarts just dying off. Others are there to take their place.

Can you give a short list of these AIT stalwarts-in-waiting, for my own information ? Who is there after Witzel croaks ? Few of his students have turned out to be "AIT"-ers. My guess is that the remaining folks are mainly the PIE linguists...a different beast from AIT.

KL

[Arjun]

AIT will not die a natural death with the passing away of a few individuals - for the simple reason that it has been 'institutionalized'. It has moved beyond individuals into the realm of education and politics. Even once Witzel croaks, who is going to undo the AIT 'entry' in Indian text books?

AIT can only die based on a concerted case being built up by Anti-AITers.

[Arjun]

In that case, please feel free to set up a new thread to discuss "Nature of Veda". Many here, including I, would benefit from it.

I will await clarity on where further discussion on 'reliability of historical inferences from Vedas' belongs before taking the issue up again.

[peter]

Telling people like Talageri and Rajesh to stop fighting is like going back to the days when Vedic scholars [..]

I am not requesting Talageri, Elst, RajeshA etc to throw in the towel. I am asking them to fight the right battles. There is so much else that OIT can do without even touching the Veda. There is no urgency to win this "Veda" battle at such a cost. [..]

KL

But this is Somnath all over again. The battle is already on so it needs to be fought. BTW I agree with you that Talageri's argument is not 100% kosher. But it does not need a heavy hammer to crush it. A much weaker argument will suffice.

[peter]

I always wondered..... weren't our ancestors (before the British) interested in history?

Have you looked at how many epigraphica indicas have been published? Also would you know if the number of inscriptions of various people (kings as well as non kings) from India is lrger then or less then other countries?

Wasn't there a natural desire to append to the existing corpus of knowledge and information? Or were the keepers of knowledge too engrossed in mundane aspects and missing the woods for the trees to seek this different knowledge? [..]

Ofcourse there was. Have heard that Nalanda burnt for a month. They had system of even giving Phd type degrees. Kingdoms when conquered the first thing that caught flames was the library of the king at the hands of invaders. Sadly there is hardly a fort in India which was not captured. Some of the manscripts still fall out of crevices from old forts in rajasthan during renovation. Have you heard of Nainsi ki Khyat?

PS: I keep asking for contemporary sources on socio-religious analysis of "why we suck and how do all these guys keep conquering us" but get no answer.

Hmmm. Have you asked yourself why are you still a hindu (I am presuming you are. My apologies if you are not)?

[RajeshA]

So AIT is not going away with AIT stalwarts just dying off. Others are there to take their place.

My guess is that the remaining folks are mainly the PIE linguists...a different beast from AIT.

Just curiosity, but why do you think PIE linguists are a different beast from AIT?

[Anand K]

Have you looked at how many epigraphica indicas have been published? Also would you know if the number of inscriptions of various people (kings as well as non kings) from India is lrger then or less then other countries?

Ofcourse there was. Have heard that Nalanda burnt for a month. They had system of even giving Phd type degrees. Kingdoms when conquered the first thing that caught flames was the library of the king at the hands of invaders. Sadly there is hardly a fort in India which was not captured. Some of the manscripts still fall out of crevices from old forts in rajasthan during renovation. Have you heard of Nainsi ki Khyat?

Hmmm. Have you asked yourself why are you still a hindu (I am presuming you are. My apologies if you are not)?

Why yes, I have "looked" at a few Epigraphia volumes... and GoI gazettes and discipline wise studies of epigraphical sources.
How many of them actually deal with the analysis of history (which I was specifically asking for in that post) or a rethink of the things that happened/customs followed.... honest self-critiques.... details of state structure (like Artha shastra)....or a socio-political analysis? The overwhelming majority of inscriptions (rock/pillar/plate is royal proclamations (shock-n-awe type praises & list victories or grants/gifts or claiming genealogy). The palm manuscripts have sparse (if nil) dedicated socio-political information; the subject matter is mostly religious or fiction, no? On the khyats.... are they actual histories or a genealogy lists of Rajput clans? I am aware they gave such information on how many villages/parganas were taxed by XYZ clan but thats where the social science ends.....

There are disappointing limits to social sciences information that can be gleaned from such limited focus sources. And here there is scope of disgustingly high levels of right/left/pinko/Oiropean "interpretations".

This comes back to the point I am making..... and it is something the Subaltern School once raised; why was there no analysis on the vaisiyas/sudras/outsiders/mleccha? Isn't this indicative of a lopsided social setup and priorities? Also, doesn't this show old Indics could not completely grok what was happening to them from around 600AD? What did the Indics make of the tribal cohesion and barbarity and absence of permanent castes/classes among the Arab/Turkic invaders? Did the repeated failures cause some introspection? What did they make of Islamic/Christian theology? Why was the message not spread to aam admins and militia type movements raised?
If independent thought encompassing other disciplines (inside/outside royal patronage) was encouraged.... one would expect a lot more of such writings. Perhaps such study was suppressed.... perhaps they felt it did not warrant serious study and went back to old, comfortable niches?


PS: OTOH, *loss* of those studies due to razing of Nalanda, Taxila and Vikramshila is a factor but we can only speculate what was lost..... maybe they had a an original Pure Critique of Reason for all we know (Absence of proof is not proof of absence and all that).... Maybe it was a center which latched blindly to tradition/social structure and imparted education only to select castes..... and were beholden to the Kings who provided all those grants/village revenue rights.

PPS: And on my Hinduness..... I try to strike a balance or doublethink between say, studies on the evolution of the Ganesha deity from Dantin/the old Vinayaka demons/tribal elephant totems versus the mythological narrative of the Mahaganapati. Helps me pray to the Vigneswara when I am in trouble but also prepares me for alien first contact (which could be the death knell of belief in our Gods. Hail Xenu!).

[RajeshA]

Anand K ji,
what has any of the above post of yours to do with AIT/OIT?

[Anand K]

Isn't one of the main themes of this discussion WHAT the Vedas are.... simple hymns which should not be used for historical research or primordial god-given gyaan which cannot be analyzed or an elaborate scam or pure bumkum. So much Rona-dhona and critique of Western/Indian historiography, on sources/perceptions on sources/historiography/etc ...... then bhyfor the Kolaveri when I posted some general observations on Indian sources?
Well... there was my whine on absence of analytical social science approach in original sources too... but maybe that's asking too much from folks 2000+ years ago. Anyway, a direct question was raised in this thread, so replied here.

If Mods think these ain't germane enough here.. well, will remove it and x-post under the burqa.

[RajeshA]

Vivekananda Kendra Patrika, Vol 40, No. 1, Issue 79, February 2010 - July 2010
Aryan Invasion Theory - Fabrications and Fallout - Part 1 [Alternate]

Code: Select all

3. Vedic Culture and its Continuity: New Paradigm and Dimensions 15
   Prof. Shivaji Singh 
4. The Mythical Massacre at Mohenjo-Daro 40
   George F. Dales
5. Genetics and the Aryan Debate 47
   Michel Danino
6. Re-discovery of River Sarasvati 57

7. The Saraswati: Where Lies the Mystery 59
   Saswati pai k
8. Constructing the ‘Aryan’ and Exploiting the ‘Dravidian’: European Fabrication of Indian Races  62
   Rajiv Malhotra
9. Why perpetuate Myths? A Fresh look at Ancient Indian History 67
   B. B. Lal
10. Evolution of Early Writing in India 74
   Subhash C. Kak
11. A Frequency Analysis of the Indus Script 84
   Subhash C. Kak
12. What is the Aryan Migration Theory? 95

13. The Rgveda Pre-Dates the Sarasvati-Sindhu Culture 128
   N. Kazanas
14. Vedic Roots of Early Tamil Culture 152
   Michel Danino
15. Saraswathi River: A Scientific Study: Book Review 165
   Yuva Bharathi

Vivekananda Kendra Patrika, Vol 40, No. 2, Issue 80, August 2010 - January 2011
Aryan Invasion Theory - Fabrications and Fallout - Part 2

Code: Select all

Part I
______
Swami Vivekananda : On Aryan Invasion 8

‘A Philological Myth’ Sri Aurobindo on  Aryan Invasion Theory 10

‘A Perversion of Scientific Investigation’ : Dr. B.R. Ambedkar 11

Part II
______
Pre-Rig Vedic Mitanni? 19
   Satish S Mishra & Ravilochanan Iyengar
On Perceiving Aryan Migrations in Vedic Ritual Texts 27
   Vishal Agarwal
Indo-aryan And Slavic Linguistic And Genetic Affinities Predate The Origin Of Cereal Farming and others 44
   Joseph Skulj
Phonetic Clues Hint Language Is Africa-Born 86
   Nicholas Wade
Some Modern Genetic Studies on the Aryan Invasion Issues (2009-2011) 89
   Swarkar Sharma and others
European Journal of Human Genetics (2010) 18, 479–484 91
   Peter A Underhill and others
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 89, Issue 6, 731-744, 9 December 2011 93
   Mait Metspalu

Part III
______
The Politics of the Aryan Invasion Debate 96
   Koenraad Elst
Racism and Indology 114
   Prof. Subash Kak
Who Owns India’s Past? 121
   Prof: Dilip K. Chakrabarti
Harappans and Aryans: Old and New Perspectives of Ancient Indian History 124
   Padma Manian De Anza College
The Missionary’s Swastika: Racism as an Evangelical Weapon 141
   S. Aravindan Neelakandan

[shiv]

Let me construct a hypothesis and ask a question based on that.

Let me suppose that Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest surviving language bar none. Let me add to this the suggestion that the words were composed from primal sounds and all words that exist in related ("IndoEuropean") languages are corruptions of the same. Of course this was the very theory that was intially mooted by linguists, but rejected later saying that there was a PIE. But let me reject that and say Sanskrit came first.

Now here is a list of two words in many languages. Looking at that list I can see absolutely no reason why the original Sanskrit word could not have got corrupted to any of the other words sounds by the natural process of language change.

• pitar (Sanskrit)
  pater (Latin)
  pater (Greek)
  padre (Spanish)
  pere (French)
  father (English)
  fadar (Gothic)
  fa∂ir (Old Norse)
  vader (German)
  athir (Old Irish--with loss of original consonant)

• bhratar (Sanskrit)
  frater (Latin)
  phrater (Greek)
  frere (French)
  brother (Modern English)
  brothor (Saxon)
  bruder (German)
  broeder (Dutch)
  bratu (Old Slavic)
  brathair (Old Irish)

Of course this logic means nothing to PIE linguists because they same changes can be postulated by cooking up a non existent original PIE word and make the claim that all the words came from some other original. It might also be possible to postulate sound change from one of the other words towards the Sanskrit sound.

But I make this post simply to try and provoke thoughts on the matter

[Virendra]

Some of the manscripts still fall out of crevices from old forts in rajasthan during renovation. Have you heard of Nainsi ki Khyat?

Muhnot Nainsi ri Khyat.
Some call Muhnot Nainsi as the Abu Fazl of medieval Rajput history. Thats enough OT

why was there no analysis on the vaisiyas/sudras/outsiders/mleccha? Isn't this indicative of a lopsided social setup and priorities?

It is indicative of only one thing. that the caste system wasn't as distinct and discriminative then.

Also, doesn't this show old Indics could not completely grok what was happening to them from around 600AD? What did the Indics make of the tribal cohesion and barbarity and absence of permanent castes/classes among the Arab/Turkic invaders? Did the repeated failures cause some introspection? What did they make of Islamic/Christian theology?

What to tell, yes there were faulty priorities. Or say lack of perspective/awareness/proactiveness to steal initiative etc etc.
Lets see an example.
Indian rulers had almost no spy system which could have given them knowledge of foreign lands and weaknesses of their foreign opponents.
On the other hand :
"Invaders like Mahmud of Ghazni had a full fledged department of Secret Intelligence known as 'Diwani-i-Shaghul-i-Ashraf-i-Mamlukat' employing both men and women as spies who travelled in disguise collecting vital secret information for their Sultan."
That was just an example.
~Source - "Indian resistance to early muslim invaders upto 1206 A.D." by Ram Gopal Misra

Expecting politically independent and separate Kingdoms to glue together is wishful thinking. It can only be possible if those Kingdoms themselves are states under an imperial centralized power exerting control/rule over the pieces.
That system ended in 5th century A.D. So the unity that could've stopped invaders at periphery itself, was missing since the post Gupta period of 6th century AD (with exception of Harshavardhan).
I consider it to be a great achievement to still hold out for centuries in front of the onslaught, while other regions in the world fell within months, like a pack of cards.

Another thing to note here is that while the lack of centralization gave holes to the invaders to plung in. It also created too many power centres and the whole lot spungy; where the invaders had to run left, right and centre again & again to stamp their authority.

Why was the message not spread to aam admins and militia type movements raised?

Militia were raised at Mandal (group of villages) levels and combined resistance from Forts and Mandals is how they exhausted the Turks.

Sorry for the OT. Please take it to appropriate (history) thread if you wish to continue on this.

Regards,
Virendra

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 01, 2012
Author: Premendra Priyadarshi
Some Domestic Animals of the Indo-European Homeland and their dispersal

Abstract
The much acclaimed hypothesis of the Indo-European origin in the steppe and language change of north India by a small number of migrating steppe pastorals has not been examined objectively so far. The modern language (Slavic) of the steppe region has lost either the word itself or its meaning for the most of the domestic animals, associated with farming, of the Proto-Indo-European homeland. Similar is the case of Anatolian Hittite language. DNA studies as well as archaeology rule out domestication or even early presence of most of the domestic farming related animals in the steppe. On the other hand India has earliest presence of such animals, as proved by archaeology and DNA studies, and also the Indo-Aryan language has retained with meanings the words for such animals. A re-examination of archaeological evidence rules out early domestication of horse and the chariot in the steppe, where horse was mainly captured for food. Review of older findings suggests an indigenous domestication of the horse, and the oldest presence of the two-wheel chariot in India. The archaeological evidence rearranged, suggests that during the Chalcolithic period, possibly Indo-Aryans from Indus went out to create the enclaves of Indo-Aryan language and culture in the BMAC, Sintashta and Anatolia (Mittani).

[Anand K]

Another thing to note here is that while the lack of centralization gave holes to the invaders to plung in. It also created too many power centres and the whole lot spungy; where the invaders had to run left, right and centre again & again to stamp their authority.

Don't have much time now; guess it is all OTT anyway.
But +1000 on the quoted part.... absence of a central power wasn't necessarily a bad thing when the Turks/Mughals were around. Made this point repeatedly in the past as well.

[peter]

Let me construct a hypothesis and ask a question based on that.

Let me suppose that Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest surviving language bar none. [..]

Fine. But why can't the Germans say tomorrow that their word is the primal word?

How do you break the deadlock?

[peter]

......

Why yes, I have "looked" at a few Epigraphia volumes... and GoI gazettes

GOI stuff is not the same thing. If one tried one could write a very detailed and accurate history of our country based just on inscriptions.
Our "key historians" do not want to leave their ac houses and offices. Else they would know that rajasthan has a strong tradition of a flowing saraswati.

Nainsi's khyat and other works are historical data not just grants. Rajasthani libraries have almirah full of vernacular documents. No one to translate them or even catalogue them. If you visit Anoop Sanskrit library in Bikaner you can't even have a decent catalogue. What all historians including the historians at our leading institutions of India have done is that they have never looked at these vernacular documents.

W.r.t to why you are a hindu you did not understand. Let me rephrase. Why do you think you were allowed to remain a Hindu?

[Arjun]

Does anybody know the precise language used in NCERT school history textbooks pertaining to AMT, and which standard it is taught in?

[Virendra]

Our "key historians" do not want to leave their ac houses and offices. Else they would know that rajasthan has a strong tradition of a flowing saraswati.

"Sarsuti" they call it in Haryana and Rajasthan. I means for the physically existent river. I've read that british officers have recorded a locally called 'Sarsuti' river to be flowing on few occasions of heavy Monsoon.
Michel Danino's lengthy presentations are available on Youtube.

[peter]

Our "key historians" do not want to leave their ac houses and offices. Else they would know that rajasthan has a strong tradition of a flowing saraswati.

"Sarsuti" they call it in Haryana and Rajasthan. I means for the physically existent river. I've read that british officers have recorded a locally called 'Sarsuti' river to be flowing on few occasions of heavy Monsoon.

Not only Brits. Prithviraj Raso mentions sarsuti. Not only this people in Jaisalmer remember the existence of a Saraswati flowing in their back yard.

It is a travesty that we cannot even cull the information in our country properly.

[ShauryaT]

Does anybody know the precise language used in NCERT school history textbooks pertaining to AMT, and which standard it is taught in?

Not sure now. We were given the straight AIT story in fifth grade.

[Virendra]

"Sarsuti" they call it in Haryana and Rajasthan. I means for the physically existent river. I've read that british officers have recorded a locally called 'Sarsuti' river to be flowing on few occasions of heavy Monsoon.

Not only Brits. Prithviraj Raso mentions sarsuti. Not only this people in Jaisalmer remember the existence of a Saraswati flowing in their back yard.

It is a travesty that we cannot even cull the information in our country properly.

[RajeshA]

Does anybody know the precise language used in NCERT school history textbooks pertaining to AMT, and which standard it is taught in?

Arjun ji,
you can look up all the NCERT books online! They are available here. From Class VI onward, Social Studies are taught, where you will also find history.

[shiv]

Let me construct a hypothesis and ask a question based on that.

Let me suppose that Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest surviving language bar none. [..]

Fine. But why can't the Germans say tomorrow that their word is the primal word?

How do you break the deadlock?

No intention to break the deadlock. The only intention is to raise issues. In fact my question itself is a tired old one. Any half-assed linguist will come up with words that "prove" that there was a proto language. The idea is to introduce the topic to BRF lurkers so it can be studied again without the pre-formed biases of the 18th and 19th centuries

[RajeshA]

Linguistics Discussion

Thread started on June 10th, 2010
Posts: ~140
Where and When did Indo-European Languages Originate: Historum Forum

One thing I notice in discussions is that those favoring Pontic Steppes or Anatolia, etc. as the Indo-European homeland always charge the other, the one opposing them (OIT), of chauvinism and nationalist tendencies, especially when one calls out their shortcomings of their arguments, often based on linguistics. On the other hand, since the Anywhere-But-India (ABIT) proponent gets to claim that he is the more objective of the two discussion partners as he is not trying to prove his native land as the IE origin.

That is why it is important to have a psychological profile of the other ready as well to explain his position based on factors other than objectivity and data. It is pure and simple racial and cultural angst!

[Virendra]

Class XI :-
Europe :
3000 to 2000 BCE - Domestication of horse (eastern Europe)
South Asia :
3000 to 2000 BCE - Cities of the Harappan civilisation, use of script* (c.2700 BCE)
1500 to 1400 BCE - Composition of the Rgveda

Class XII :-

Evidence of an “invasion”
Deadman Lane is a narrow alley, varying from 3 to 6 feet in width … At the point where the lane turns westward, part of a skull and the bones of the thorax and upper arm of an adult were discovered, all in very friable condition, at a depth of 4 ft 2 in.
The body lay on its back diagonally across the lane. Fifteen inches to the west were a few fragments of a tiny skull.
It is to these remains that the lane owes its name.
FROM JOHN MARSHALL, Mohenjodaro and the Indus Civilisation, 1931.

Sixteen skeletons of people with the ornaments that they were wearing when they died were found from the same part of Mohenjodaro in 1925.
Much later, in 1947, R.E.M. Wheeler, then Director-General of the ASI, tried to correlate this archaeological evidence with that of the Rigveda, the earliest known text in the subcontinent. He wrote:
The Rigveda mentions pur , meaning rampart, fort or stronghold. Indra, the Aryan war-god is called puramdara, the fort-destroyer.
Where are – or were – these citadels? It has in the past been supposed that they were mythical … The recent excavation of Harappa may be thought to have changed the picture. Here we have a highly evolved civilisation of essentially non- Aryan type, now known to have employed massive fortifications …
What destroyed this firmly settled civilisation? Climatic, economic or political deterioration may have weakened it, but its ultimate extinction is more likely to have been completed by deliberate and large-scale destruction.
It may be no mere chance that at a late period of Mohenjodaro men, women, and children, appear to have been massacred there. On circumstantial evidence, Indra stands accused.
FROM R.E.M. WHEELER, “Harappa 1946”, Ancient India, 1947.

In the 1960s, the evidence of a massacre in Mohenjodaro was questioned by an archaeologist named George Dales. He demonstrated that the skeletons found at the site did not belong to the same period:
Whereas a couple of them definitely seem to indicate a slaughter, … the bulk of the bones were found in contexts suggesting burials of the sloppiest and most irreverent nature. There is no destruction level covering the latest period of the city, no sign of extensive burning, no bodies of warriors clad in armour and surrounded by the weapons of war. The citadel, the only fortified part of the city, yielded no evidence of a final defence.
FROM G.F. DALES, “The Mythical Massacre at Mohenjodaro”, Expediton, 1964.

As you can see, a careful re-examination of the data can sometimes lead to a reversal of earlier interpretations.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From NCERT books

Regards,
Virendra

[RajeshA]

^^^

So the Establishment Historians are saying look, how nationalistic we are, we don't accept the Aryan Invasion Theory. The Aryans were peaceful people who migrated into India (AMT, AIT 2.0), not much different than those who came later on. But the Establishment Historians are not willing to accept indigenous origin of "Aryans". So it is basically selling off the country in the garb of "nationalists"!

[Virendra]

Nationalist garb? No even the garb is not nationalist.
I see so many JNU and AMU names in the panel.
By the way, who wants to invade that thread Rajesh ji linked. Lets do an OIT invasion

[shiv]

Does anybody know the precise language used in NCERT school history textbooks pertaining to AMT, and which standard it is taught in?

No the texts are OK nowadays but I haven't seen them all. The ones I have seen have been more or less OK apart from accepting AIT dates

Take a look at this
http://ncert.nic.in/NCERTS/textbook/tex ... fess1=5-12

[Arjun]

Does anybody know the precise language used in NCERT school history textbooks pertaining to AMT, and which standard it is taught in?

No the texts are OK nowadays

Take a look at this
http://ncert.nic.in/NCERTS/textbook/tex ... fess1=5-12

Yes, I had done a search for 'Aryan' on this and that did not yield any result. RV at 1500 BC seems to be the worst it gets at least for primary standards (I-X).

XI-XII may be problematic based on Virendra ji's post.

RajeshA ji - Thanks for the earlier link !

[shiv]

FROM R.E.M. WHEELER, “Harappa 1946”, Ancient India, 1947.

Hmmm I can imagine how a historian of my age (or perhaps a little older) studied this idiot's conclusions as part his course when I was in school. And that historian is now at the peak of his GoI career as an advisor on textbooks and sees nothing wrong with this

[peter]

w.r.t Talageri:

Please look at this (M stands for mandala. So M2_27_29 means Mandal2 rks 27 to 29. Rishis on the same row are hopefully peers or brothers. I used Talageri's http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/ch1.htm to create the graph. If you see a mistake please let me know and I will fix it):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ishis.jpeg

Heavy file maybe download and use your viewer to zoom in etc. Also only Angiras' family tree is the most organized w.r.t levels. Other rishis such as Vishwamitra's children at the same level have not been grouped together. Mandals are also levelized. So Mandal1 is always above Mandal2 and so on. Angiras' children who have a "?" at their end means that according to the data in Talageri's book it is not clear that these rishis are the immediate children of Angiras or his descendants children. Please ignore the ellipse M6_1_75 as it is a typo.

The ten AprI-sUktas, and the ten families of composers to whom they belong, are:

1. I.13 KaNvas (Kevala-ANgirases)
2. I.142 ANgirases
3. I.188 Agastyas
4. II.3 GRtsamadas (Kevala-BhRgus)
5. III.4 ViSvAmitras
6. V.5 Atris
7. VII.2 VasiSThas
8. IX.5 KaSyapas
9. X.70 Bharatas
10. X.110 BhRgus

Some questions that I would like to ask Talageri :
a) How come there are 10 distinct Vedic rishi families when Grtsamda is also of the Angiras family through Saunahotra?

b) If you look at Mandal 6 in the graph, which according to Talageri is the oldest because it is created by Angiras's oldest kids: Are you convinced with Talageri's POV?

[RajeshA]

AIT Debate Resources

Great place to look for papers and other resources!

Compiled By: Francesco Brighenti, PhD
Selected Internet Resources on the Aryan Migration Theory (AMT) Debate

[RajeshA]

Books by AIT-Nazis



Publication Date: 22 Jun 2007
Authors: Elena Efimovna Kuzʹmina, James Patrick Mallory
The Origin of the Indo-Iranians [Google] [Amazon] [Download]

It seems many Russians are now jumping into the field. I wonder whether they are being encouraged by Anglo-German money!

The books does go into the archaeological evidence collected. Of course it reaches all the absurd conclusions, as always due to the dictatorship of the AIT-Nazi narrative. Any archaeology refuting AIT would be considered faulty!

[ramana]

Its about how to own the Western narrative.

[member_22872]

Atleast till now, all the gurus who have contributed should bring out a book or paper and circulate it around. We have discussed so much, it will be good if some stuff comes out as pdf book form. Few read printed books. We should produce web based books which even a 5 year old can understand, mass following can kill AIT. Even a Youtube documentary with gripping narrative would be great.

[RajeshA]

The thing about academic research is that once you crack the top of the pyramid in any academic institute and you start throwing money at it, you can pollute the direction of research there for generations.

Once an academic has published a paper or a book, seldom would he yield from his claims and retract them. Basically he would encourage all those working on his team to create more literature which supports his views. And thus his team also gets corrupted and compromised. Considering how long these people stay in their seats in various academic institutes, the corrupted worldview gets entrenched for another generation.

[member_22872]

^^^ Rajesh ji mass following of OIT can corner them into pockets. the down side of academic research is you need lot of money. And also if you take PIE and linguistics, how many can understand it? they come out with new terms every day, it is their Waterloo. People who don't understand what they are saying will turn away. We should make OIT understandable to anyone and everyone in simple terms covering and countering every single AIT filth and spread the word everywhere. Once it becomes popular, mainstream media will pick it up, people start questioning AIT. I think that would be the start of downfall of AIT, till then it will linger on like bad stench.