Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 10 Oct 2012 04:55

Ya mod needs to step in.

Blue Star should be behind everyone, as their is no point in dwelling in the past and I feel that India should have healed from the dark saga by now. As for the Sikh militancy, the west has a few nuts that still want an Independent Punjab, and as for brainwashing the young. The young punjabi's here in BC that are ultra desi, are shooting each other to death over drugs, arms and usual Klingon mindset. The Sikhs in India (the last time I visited in 2003) were pretty much headstrong and had no beef with the nation and were proud citizens, and I hear from my parents that Punjab has grown with the times.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2012 05:20

Yes Gurinder on that positive note no more discussion.
Thanks, ramana

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 10 Oct 2012 08:09

sanjaykumar wrote:Do you think the Congress won the 80s in Punjab ? What we have in Punjab now are an ambivalent population, who will arise against India at the opportune moment. Areas in the border need to have more sympathy towards the Indic cause if we are to secure our future. Buddhism in Gandhara et al was what allowed the Islamists easy access into North West. India is caught in a narrow-minded culture of 'no-give' .. 'only-take' .. some times we have to give a bit with an eye to the future. A wholescale psychological reorientation is needed.

The Indic cause is not antithetical to the Sikh cause, but Sikhs are welcome to rise against it. They can begin by returning to West Panjab whence a good number of them immigrated. This will demonstrate to Hindus that they are a serious people with serious grievances instead of only wanting more. It will demonstrate that the Sikh-Muslim antagonism had a historical context and that two monotheisims are much more reconcilable than otherwise. There is also much cultural similarity to the two populations-both are 'religion and guns' cultures. This will also make Sikhs establish their maturity and demonstrate political sagacity in the eventual negotiations to follow.

With nukes pointed at Makkah, hordes of Muslim fanatics swooping into NW India is kind of passe.

strange that from last two three page mod become manMohan Singh and people keep point finger on Sikhism witout historical knowledge like above who think Muslim and Sikh is similar. that guy above is certainly lost what he is trying to say

Sikhism is created to fight the Taliban of that time after partition same true For Pakistan

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Oct 2012 09:04

Ajay Sharma wrote:<SNIP>Looks very DDM-ish RV. Could it be that its a new plain vanila corps that Ms. Sharma is mistaking with MSC?

No more vanilla Corps happening AFAIK. Seems to be a case of DDM-itis.

But another possibility is that IA may transfer these to MSC and when new divisions are raised, they compensate for these transfer. But all this is rank speculation.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 10 Oct 2012 09:30

Okay, I have been only half-serious. Consider it a head fake.

Two can be perverse, obdurate and resort to innuendo and half-truths to inflame grievances, real and imaginary.

The real point is that Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and Jains need to realise that in this wide world no one is going to watch out for you except you for each other.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 10 Oct 2012 10:12

rohitvats wrote:But another possibility is that IA may transfer these to MSC and when new divisions are raised, they compensate for these transfer. But all this is rank speculation.

Possible. What would also be interesting to note is that assuming they get even half of the gold plated stuff they have been asking for, will there be new specialized units/formations raised? After all, there will be specialized training, doctrines, tactics etc that will be required for heli-borne operations, logistics tail....

The rationale for this being that it will require a different orientation and approach - something like air cavalry - on the same lines as our 2 Bdes earmarked for marine operations.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 17:58

rohitvats wrote:^^^That is one confusing bit of news.

I very clearly remember IA asking for 2 x mountain divisions and a new Corps HQ for MSC. The article talks of the new Divisions raised in NR (71 and 56) as moving out of their present Corps HQs and coming under the control of a new MSC HQ. Honestly, this makes no sense to me nor does it justify the 65K crore tag arrived at for the new MSC.

Rohit, did you see who the author of this piece is? Motorhama Sharma!!! She probabably took cuple of different news articles together and did a "Slash and Burn". Better to ignore this.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2012 18:01

rohitvats wrote:
Ajay Sharma wrote:<SNIP>Looks very DDM-ish RV. Could it be that its a new plain vanila corps that Ms. Sharma is mistaking with MSC?
No more vanilla Corps happening AFAIK. Seems to be a case of DDM-itis.

But another possibility is that IA may transfer these to MSC and when new divisions are raised, they compensate for these transfer. But all this is rank speculation.

Or these could all be the excuse to bury the whole matter deep. But it looks IA is trying every trick in the book to get MSC as well as Attack Copters.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 Oct 2012 18:17

This is what happens when you pussyfoot around and not take the neo Khalistanis who are on this thread head on

The Center is mum. The main opposition party sleeps with party in Punjab - so they are mum

all that is left is for BR to be mum

SGPC honours Vaidya's assassins

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sgpc ... 24177.html

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 10 Oct 2012 18:57

Surya wrote:This is what happens when you pussyfoot around and not take the neo Khalistanis who are on this thread head on

The Center is mum. The main opposition party sleeps with party in Punjab - so they are mum

all that is left is for BR to be mum

SGPC honours Vaidya's assassins

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sgpc ... 24177.html

Who give the neo khalistanis chance at first place they are just cashing in on it. one bad move to attack Golden temple, enough data on net that after Bluestar Khalistan became more strong more ruthless in there attack and with more people come forward to join them.
Police taken step but looking at the situation KPS gill did the best in black Thunder and there one more thing in BS vs BT that quantity and sophistication was more severe than BS. so it is totally wrong to assume that army senior did right thing during the BS.

I am not blaming all but some who was the decision makers. they are more fear full of Pakistan than Bhinderawala. i think they overestimate the Pakistan at that time or underestimate own power result.

People sitting in SGPC or Akali dal is power hungry politician if you took them seriously then there aim will be achieved, which is publicity. They did nothing for people of punjab but they himself become wealthy.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 10 Oct 2012 21:17

If assassins of Gen Vaidya are called Shaeed by SGPC then I think time is not far when Army would have to take up again Operation in GT.
Highly condemnable act and if people of Punjab and politicians keep quite or worst still partake in this sh!tfull act of few then they would only be responsible for the consequences that would naturally follow.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 Oct 2012 22:55

Who give the neo khalistanis chance at first place they are just cashing in on it. one bad move to attack Golden temple, enough data on net that after Bluestar Khalistan became more strong more ruthless in there attack and with more people come forward to join them.

another example of the chutzpah

again not a peep out of any group

quick to jump on govt but mum in this case

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 11 Oct 2012 01:29

Consider that the critics of Operation Bluestar do not care a damn for the justification given by Lt. Gen. Brar on why mounting the operation was a must.
Question for the critics of Operation Bluestar:
If instead of Sikhs, people of any other religion had taken over the golden temple and desecrated it in the same manner as Bhindranwale's followers; and then if the Indian Army had mounted operation Bluestar successfully to flush them out, would these critics call undertaking the operation a blunder or would they call it a liberation?
If the answer is blunder, then truly the critics of Operation Bluestar do not care for the sanctity of the Golden Temple. In other words, it can be desecrated from the inside, but its structure must remain intact. This is hypocrisy.
If the answer is liberation, then the critics are again hypocrites, because they are saying that it is ok for Sikhs to desecrate the Golden Temple, but not any other religion
Either ways, Operation Bluestar is just a ruse used by anti-nationals to recruit the gullible for the Khalistan and secession from India.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 11 Oct 2012 07:34

B.RAMAN

The situation that we are likely to face in Punjab and Delhi in the coming months due to the attempts being made by some elements to revive anger in sections of the Sikh community in Punjab and abroad would be qualitatively different from the situation that we faced during the Khalistan movement between 1981 and 1995.

2. What we faced between 1981 and 1995 was a politico-religious movement claiming that the Sikhs were treated as second class citizens in India because of their religion and that the only way of redressing their grievances was through the creation of an independent Sikh State to be called Khalistan. We faced the entire gamut of classical terrorism such as hijackings and blowing-up of aircraft, planting improvised explosive devices in crowded places, indiscriminate use of hand-held weapons against soft targets and targeted assassinations of Hindu and pro-Government Sikh leaders and VIPs.

3. What we are seeing today is an attempt to create a revanchist (reprisal) movement by re-kindling the dormant feelings of anger, inner hurt and humiliation in sections of the Sikh community in order to motivate them to seek vengeance for the alleged desecration of their holy temple during the military action code-named OP Blue Star in June 1984.

4. Our success in bringing the movement under control was due to the fact that the terrorist organisations were not able to win many adherents for the cause of an independent Khalistan despite the widespread anger caused by OP Blue Star.

5.Today, the terrorist remnants of these organisations would face difficulty in using such political and economic arguments which would not make an impact on the Sikh community. They are, therefore, seeking to use revanchist arguments and symbols to persuade the people to support a neo terrorist movement.

6.The attempts of the SGPC to build a memorial inside the Golden Temple for those killed during OP Blue Star, to pay homage to the memories of the assassins of Gen.A.Vaidya, who was the Chief of the Army Staff during OP Blue Star, and Beant Singh, the former Chief Minister of Punjab, and to kill Lt.Gen (retd). K.S.Brar, who played a prominent role in OP Blue Star, during his recent visit to London are indicators of the revanchist thinking being encouraged by some elements in Punjab and abroad.

7.At least in the initial stages, a revanchist movement is likely to focus more on acts of revenge against political leaders, and military and police officers, who had played a prominent role during OP Blue Star and during the subsequent counter-terrorism operations. It is important to review the security already provided to them and further strengthen it in India and abroad.

8. How to deal with the activities of the SGPC in encouraging symbolic acts like the construction of a memorial for those killed during OP Blue Star and paying homage to the assassins and to prevent the new brand of terrorists from again establishing control over the Golden Temple? This is a tricky question calling for careful handling without over-reaction.

9. We have faced two tricky situations in the Golden Temple in 1984 and 1988.The occupation of the Golden Temple by some terrorists in 1984 was handled by the Army under OP Blue Star resulting in many fatalities on both sides and damages to the Akal Takht, the sanctum sanctorum. The re-occupation of the Golden Temple by another group of terrorists in 1988 was handled without the use of the Army by a group of police officers led jointly by Shri K.P.S.Gill, Shri Ved Marwah, Shri M.K.Narayanan and Shri Ajit Doval.

10. The Government should consult these officers on the options available before deciding on a strategy. So far as attempts to revive terrorism outside the Golden Temple are concerned, the Akali Dal Government has been saying that it is all for strong action to curb them in the bud and claims that it is already doing so. But there is considerable ambivalence in its attitude to the revanchist activities of the SGPC inside the Golden Temple. This needs to be tackled without unwittingly aggravating the situation as these police officers successfully did in 1988 without unnecessary and unwise dramatization.

11. I saw a TV interview of Shri K.P.S.Gill after the attack on Lt.Gen.Brar. I got the impression that he was also cautioning against over-dramatisation of the worrisome situation developing in Punjab and abroad. The Government of India has a leadership role to play in this in consultation with the SAD and the BJP. It should not be self-complacent. ( 11-10-12)

ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.in/2012/10/dangers-of-neo-terrorism-in-punjab.html

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2012 10:01

sarabpal.s wrote:<SNIP>Who give the neo khalistanis chance at first place they are just cashing in on it. one bad move to attack Golden temple, enough data on net that after Bluestar Khalistan became more strong more ruthless in there attack and with more people come forward to join them.

You are quick to jump on the politicians and everyone under the Sun but your own kith and kin. What were the 'thekedars' of Sikhism doing when Bhindarwala was building his fortress inside the Golden Temple? Did they object to him running a mafia like network from inside the GT? Did anyone raise any voice about desecration of GT when Atwal was killed in cold blood in the premises of the GT? None. So, stop pointing fingers at everyone and please look inside.

Police taken step but looking at the situation KPS gill did the best in black Thunder and there one more thing in BS vs BT that quantity and sophistication was more severe than BS. so it is totally wrong to assume that army senior did right thing during the BS.

BT was more complicated than BS? Have you bothered to even check the facts? Remember, Major General (retd) Saheb Singh in 1984? Did the militants have anyone like him in 1988? Did the militants fortify Akal-Thakt in BT like they did in 1984? Did Akali Dal announce state wide march towards GT when Op BT was to be conducted? Was the political situation obtained in 1988 same as in 1984?

And BTW, the fellows from NSG who conducted the assault were army personnel.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2012 10:09

Let me ask the people who talk about desecration of Golden Temple.....where do you stand on the felicitation of families of killers of General Vaidya and them being termed as martyrs? Is not using GT for parochial political purpose insulting the sanctity of the shrine? Where is the cry of desecration now?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Oct 2012 11:00

^^^

The storming of the golden temple was a political decision, made by the civilian authority. The IA is duty bound to follow orders given to it, which would assist the civilian authorities in controlling a situation and maintain law & order. Given the situation as existed in GT, it was clearly a L&O mater, which the civil police was unable to control. The IA was brought into the picture.

Having said so, the murder of Gen Vaidya for doing his job is an act of terror.

Those who say that the IA should no have entered GT. My answer is that GT should not have been occupied by the terrorists. Any description of the killers of Gen Vaidya as martyrs is an insult to the IA and the rule of law.

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Oct 2012 12:22

From Orbat:

Pakistan-China military cooperation More interesting to us is a 2011 report which we just saw, saying the PLA’s 101st Engineer Regiment had participated with the Pakistan Army on India’s borders. Both countries, of course, stage frequent exercises with other militaries. But China is India’s enemy, so joining Pakistan on the Indian birder is pretty significant.

· We asked Mandeep Singh Bajwa, our trusty South Asia expert, what this meant. He noted the Chinese exercised in the desert. That India’s strategy calls for cutting Pakistan in two in the desert sector is no secret. Mandeep said part of this is China wanting to practice in the desert. Part, he said is posturing at India. Mandeep feels China will not come to Pakistan’s assistance in case India makes major inroads into Pakistan. Rather it will rely on posturing, particularly in the north, to prevent India from diverting northern front forces to the west, against Pakistan.

India is becoming much stronger in the north, and it will soon have enough troops to hold off China while still diverting northern formations to Pakistan. But if there’s a Chinese regiment or two standing in the way of India’s desert thrusts, well, this kind of posturing will have a very serious effect on the government’s willpower. The Chinese know that India’s weakens lies in the realm of psychology, not in military force. However much Indians may deny it, the sad truth is the government of India, an a significant part of its people, are terrified of China’s military intervention. This remains the case even though India can overwhelm Pakistan while maintain a staunch defense in the north. To the Chinese, military victory depends as much on psychological factors as military ones. There is no sense in denying that psychologically they very much have had the upper hand for 50-years and this continues.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Oct 2012 12:28

The only desecration of the golden temple happened when Bhindranwale and his fellow goons took it over. GoI and IA cleaned it up. Is this simple fact difficult for people to understand?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 11 Oct 2012 12:34

Part, he said is posturing at India. Mandeep feels China will not come to Pakistan’s assistance in case India makes major inroads into Pakistan. Rather it will rely on posturing, particularly in the north, to prevent India from diverting northern front forces to the west, against Pakistan.

It is the old attitude that China will come to Pakistan's aid to give its munna some confidence. It would be in their interest to stay out if Pakistan is being dismembered. Their impact would be limited to areas that China borders with India. India - Pak terrain is not their forte and in case of a war will be limited to pure psychological measures. In the cold war days, super powers would do it to provide technological help for their allies. China has already given them what they could without even a war being waged. Its more like the US India exercises to show off but when the real time to help comes, the help is more verbal than physical.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Oct 2012 12:46

if pakistan is falling apart, china is more likely to advance in to the NA and secure any geographical advantages it can

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 11 Oct 2012 13:29

Just to change the subject, here's a nice photo-essay on women guarding India's border -

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/0 ... he-guards/

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 11 Oct 2012 20:59

Few moons ago.. Rohit posted a link of a story of fictious Indo-china war... Cant find that now... Any help guys...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2012 21:07

Aaryan wrote:Few moons ago.. Rohit posted a link of a story of fictious Indo-china war... Cant find that now... Any help guys...

Wasn't me but Jai.

Here is the link: http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/

You'll need to search for the story on the blog.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 11 Oct 2012 23:12

rohitvats wrote: You are quick to jump on the politicians and everyone under the Sun but your own kith and kin. What were the 'thekedars' of Sikhism doing when Bhindarwala was building his fortress inside the Golden Temple? Did they object to him running a mafia like network from inside the GT? Did anyone raise any voice about desecration of GT when Atwal was killed in cold blood in the premises of the GT? None. So, stop pointing fingers at everyone and please look inside.

you always try to go other when i say one thing That why it is not possible to prevent such a destruction.
you are already mention about atwal how you feel when sniper watching your move, all the person coming to GT that time is just visitors mostly are with family's.
you tell me how many stone you removed from road so other don't toppled.

BT was more complicated than BS? Have you bothered to even check the facts? Remember, Major General (retd) Saheb Singh in 1984? Did the militants have anyone like him in 1988? Did the militants fortify Akal-Thakt in BT like they did in 1984? Did Akali Dal announce state wide march towards GT when Op BT was to be conducted? Was the political situation obtained in 1988 same as in 1984?

you forget that by 1988 mostly terrorist is trained in Pakistan and well armed better than the BS

And BTW, the fellows from NSG who conducted the assault were army personnel.

Bravo for them they handle the situation well

I am trying post it from neutral sites B.Raman Article is banged on what i saying from last few pages

Nobody is 'thekedars' of Sikhism. if some one who truly is 'thekedars' of bhinderawala is INDRA.
himself who first create it than dump it quickly but not after showing the blood to wolf.

I had no love lost for INDIAN ARMY just critics of senior who is failure drag India few year behind.
The way you talk of Sikhism is not really good i had ready it your posts special the your report on canals on borders very well describe and saved it PDF format too.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 11 Oct 2012 23:18

rohitvats wrote:Let me ask the people who talk about desecration of Golden Temple.....where do you stand on the felicitation of families of killers of General Vaidya and them being termed as martyrs? Is not using GT for parochial political purpose insulting the sanctity of the shrine? Where is the cry of desecration now?

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/12/world ... ple&st=nyt

what happened to them any news they written off from this world. no records

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Oct 2012 23:28

oh the neo khalistani bullcrap keeps piling

you always try to go other when i say one thing That why it is not possible to prevent such a destruction.

you are already mention about atwal how you feel when sniper watching your move, all the person coming to GT that time is just visitors mostly are with family's.
you tell me how many stone you removed from road so other don't toppled.

no clue what this is about

you forget that by 1988 mostly terrorist is trained in Pakistan and well armed better than the BS

bullCr@p - just look at the stuff hauled in at BS. even knocked of APCs

I am trying post it from neutral sites B.Raman Article is banged on what i saying from last few pages

Raman is NOT the god of all things - He was at end of day a babu and frankly his writings on Malaysia where he was posted were laughable. I know more about it then he does and if this were the sort of reports he sent then god save us.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 11 Oct 2012 23:34

Right on time,Well clear the some air

Sikh shrine management committee SGPC had not honoured the killers of Gen. A.S. Vaidya, army chief in 1984 when the Golden Temple in Amritsar was stormed by the miitary, Punjab's ruling Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) MP Naresh Gujral said Thursday.

Gujral told a TV channel that there was a misinformation campaign that the Shiromani Gurudwara Parbhandak Committee (SGPC) had honoured the killers' families.

"It is also wrong to say that the SGPC honoured the family members of Vaidya's killers. It did not. Like any other Sikh, the family of Vaidya's killers have a right to visit the Golden Temple to perform the annual remembrance ceremonies. They only did that," he said.

"The Punjab government (ruled by SAD) and the SGPC have nothing to do with it," he added.

http://www.prokerala.com/news/articles/a333587.html

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 11 Oct 2012 23:36

Well lots of people has hangover of IA so be it but make it constrictive not like Monkey crap you throw now then

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 11 Oct 2012 23:46

Surya wrote: no clue what this is about

you have mind figure it out

bullCr@p - just look at the stuff hauled in at BS. even knocked of APCs

i will post the link just lost it somewhere

Raman is NOT the god of all things - He was at end of day a babu and frankly his writings on Malaysia where he was posted were laughable. I know more about it then he does and if this were the sort of reports he sent then god save us.

Who ever he is but his article on this topic is right.
no body forcing anybody to agree special when they don't want to be agree on anything.

People is quit ignorant about facts

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Oct 2012 23:52

SGPC has not sanctioned it but .. all sort of ceremonies can happen on their premises

am sure they did not sanction the goons fo 84 too. They just were free to live and run a mafiadom from the most sacred temple of the sikhs

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2012 23:54

sarabpal.s wrote:you always try to go other when i say one thing That why it is not possible to prevent such a destruction.
you are already mention about atwal how you feel when sniper watching your move, all the person coming to GT that time is just visitors mostly are with family's.you tell me how many stone you removed from road so other don't toppled.

Well again, we have the finger pointing at everyone but the terrorists hiding in the GT. Why were the Snipers put in place at all? Were they having picnic in the area?

You forget that by 1988 mostly terrorist is trained in Pakistan and well armed better than the BS

So, for how long did these terrorists in BT offer resistance as compared to the Blue Star if they were better trained? Why did they simply surrender? Was it because of some concern for the Golden Temple or because they knew that by conducting Operation Blue Star, GOI had made it amply clear that GT will not be allowed to function as a sanctuary for anti-national activities?

Did those militants in 1988 have a cult figure like Bhindarwala to rally around or have someone like Major General Saheb Singh to lead them in battle and provide tactical directions? After all, in 1984 they did believe that GOI will not dare to enter the GT complex and were smug in their confidence to simply wear out the forces. Plus, there was an expectation that people will simply converge on GT in thousands and not allow security forces to continue the siege.

Get your facts right rather than trying to somehow prove that it was IA which was to be blamed for the attack. As if it does not have better things to do in life.

Nobody is 'thekedars' of Sikhism. if some one who truly is 'thekedars' of bhinderawala is INDRA. himself who first create it than dump it quickly but not after showing the blood to wolf.

Oh! but there are....SGPC is the biggest thekedar of Sikhism it seems - given its actions. And SAD follows closely behind.

I had no love lost for INDIAN ARMY just critics of senior who is failure drag India few year behind.

The seniors did what they were asked to do and to the best of their abilities. It is your ignorance and twisted bend of mind which makes you see them as some sort of murderous psychopaths.

The way you talk of Sikhism is not really good i had ready it your posts special the your report on canals on borders very well describe and saved it PDF format too.

Dude, I have not spoken about Sikhism anywhere...but those Sikhs who dared to challenge the integrity of the nation and those who consider them as some sort of heroes.

Let it be plainly known that as far as I am considered, the nation is above all. I said in my first post on this debate that
"Janani Janma-bhoomi-scha Swargadapi Gariyasi".....There is nothing beyond the motherland...if tomorrow GOI has to storm a Hindu place of worship to flush out anti-national elements, not a tear will I shed.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2012 00:02

sarabpal.s wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Let me ask the people who talk about desecration of Golden Temple.....where do you stand on the felicitation of families of killers of General Vaidya and them being termed as martyrs? Is not using GT for parochial political purpose insulting the sanctity of the shrine? Where is the cry of desecration now?

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/12/world ... ple&st=nyt

what happened to them any news they written off from this world. no records

Thank you very much for telling everyone where you stand on the issue....next time, when you and likes of you talk about desecration of the GT Complex, look within yourself. It is people like you who lead to situations arising which require BS/BT type of bitter pills being administered.

As for what happened to these soldiers - well, the fact that you've picked up the most biased and provocative of the media source possible again shows the proclivity to somehow play the victim card and pass your actions as justified.

Well, to tell you the truth - many of those who deserted and were moving towards Amritsar were arrested. Those who had stolen weapons from their units and tried to force their way through (when asked to surrender) were killed in firefight.

The Indian Army has more than 40 battalions between Sikh Regiment and Sikh Light Infantry...but it disbanded only one battalion of Sikh Regiment where troops killed their CO. Rest were very much fine and carried on with their duties.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2012 00:10

sarabpal.s wrote:Right on time,Well clear the some air

Sikh shrine management committee SGPC had not honoured the killers of Gen. A.S. Vaidya, army chief in 1984 when the Golden Temple in Amritsar was stormed by the miitary, Punjab's ruling Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) MP Naresh Gujral said Thursday.<SNIP>

Playing with semantic bull-Cr@p again, are we? Why are you pussy-footing around the issue?

If SGPC did not felicitate the killers of General Vaidya, why were they given Siropa? To those who might not be familiar with the terms, here is what the internet says about Siropa -

SIROPA a term adopted from Persian sar-o-pa (head and foot) or sarapa (head to foot) meaning an honorary dress, is used in Sikh vocabulary for a garment, scarf or a length of cloth bestowed on someone as a mark of honour. It is equivalent of khill’at or robe of honour with the difference that while a khill’at is awarded by a political superior and comprises a whole set of garments with or without arms, a siropa is bestowed by a religious or social figure or institution and may comprise a whole dress or, as is usually the case, a single garment or a length of cloth as a mark of recognition of piety or as an acknowledgement of unswerving devotion to a moral or philanthropic purpose

The siropa is now a gift bestowed by sangat on behalf of the Guru Granth Sahib upon someone who deserves the honour by virtue of his or her dedication. It is almost invariably in the form of a length of cloth, two to two-and-a-half metres, usually dyed in saffron colour, accompanied by prasad, the consecrated food which could be in the form of karah prasad, sugar crystal or bubbles, or dry fruit. Siropa is the highest award that a Sikh may receive in sangat. It is the most precious gift of the Guru made through the sangat.

[/quote]

So, for what kind of dedication and purpose was a Siropa given to the families of the killers of General Vaidya? And can anyone simply go and get a Siropa at GT?

I really hope you answer this one.

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 12 Oct 2012 00:26

rohitvats wrote: "Janani Janma-bhoomi-scha Swargadapi Gariyasi".....There is nothing beyond the motherland...if tomorrow GOI has to storm a Hindu place of worship to flush out anti-national elements, not a tear will I shed.

+1 Totally agree

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 12 Oct 2012 11:09

sarabpal.s wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Let me ask the people who talk about desecration of Golden Temple.....where do you stand on the felicitation of families of killers of General Vaidya and them being termed as martyrs? Is not using GT for parochial political purpose insulting the sanctity of the shrine? Where is the cry of desecration now?

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/12/world ... ple&st=nyt

what happened to them any news they written off from this world. no records

Ok, i'll bite...

The deserters who were overwhelmingly recruits still undergoing training at the Regimental Centre in Ramgarh were subject to Court Martials, one of them held in Pune. They were mostly imprisoned in special facilities (no, not Camp X-Ray or Abu Ghraib) set up and managed by the army, one was under 54 Inf. Div at Secunderabad. I know this from personal association with people involved/having been an eye witness. You may choose to take that at face value or not.

The problem today is neither the SGPC or SAD, who are known hardliners and extremists, but the BJP/RSS and of course the Congress who are allowing seditionary activities to take place in broad daylight. Both of them can stop this but they won't.

The only silver lining in all of this is that when the sh** hits the fan again there will be a new generation of Brars, Jasbir Rainas, and KPS Gills who will chose nation over religion/caste.

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 12 Oct 2012 14:04

rohitvats wrote:
Aaryan wrote:Few moons ago.. Rohit posted a link of a story of fictious Indo-china war... Cant find that now... Any help guys...
Wasn't me but Jai.

Here is the link: http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/

You'll need to search for the story on the blog.

Thankx rohit bhai...

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 12 Oct 2012 14:36

Apar Singh Bajwa

The year 1984 was a very difficult time for deputy superintendant (DSP) of Punjab Police Apar Singh Bajwa, now retired.

As part of an ill-trained, badly equipped and under-manned force, which had further been demoralised by long working hours, terrible living conditions and not the least of all - infiltration by Sikh separatist militants, it was his job to secure the perimeter of Amritsar's Golden Temple Complex.

I have no regrets. I did my duty as a policeman and I tried to act in as fair a manner as possible

Golden Temple attack: Your memories
The Golden Temple - Sikhism's holiest shrine - had been taken over by the militant Sikh leader Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and his band of some 250 heavily-armed followers.

"Those were bad times," Bajwa recalled.

"The militants had found a safe sanctuary in the Golden Temple. They would sneak out, commit crimes and easily sneak back into the temple complex.

"Though we were responsible for preventing crime, the government has issued specific instructions barring the police from entering the Temple.

"The militants knew this and used it to their advantage.

"Things became further complicated when the [central government] home minister stated inside Parliament that none of the security forces would ever enter the Temple.

"Such a situation permitted the militants to fortify and arm themselves over several months prior to their final showdown with the army in June.

"Finally the army was called in and given the task of flushing out Bhindranwale and his men.

"We (the state police) were ordered back to our homes because there was a general impression that many cops were mixed up with the militants

"The intermittent curfew imposed earlier, was finally clamped down on the evening of 3 June, which was also the day of an important Sikh festival and there were thousands of ordinary devotees inside the complex

"We tried to get these people out but could only achieve partial success because the army began its offensive.

"I was then told to go home and I remained there until the morning of 6 June when I was summoned early in the morning.

"When I reached the police station near the temple, I saw the dead bodies of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, General Shabeg Singh, Thiara Singh and Amrik Singh lying there.

"I was asked to identify the bodies because I was familiar with all the dead men having often interacted with them as part of my duties as a police officer.

"The army officer in-charge then requested me to arrange the cremations. We performed these, according to Sikh rites, at the nearby Gurudwara Shaheedan."

Grim task

According to the DSP "a large majority of those who died inside the Golden Temple during Operation Bluestar were common devotees who had come to the shrine on 3 June on the occasion of the fifth Sikh Guru Arjan Dev's Martyrdom Day.

" Apart from Bhindranwale's armed followers, I counted a little over 800 dead bodies inside the temple complex.

"I and my men were also tasked with clearing and cremating these bodies. Army and municipal officials helped transport them to the local cremation ground.

"While many of the innocents were killed in the crossfire between the army and the militants, it is true that the soldiers deliberately gunned down several devotees.

"You see they actually believed that anyone inside the temple was the 'enemy'."

The soldiers had no notion of how they should tackle an internal security situation like the one that had developed inside the Golden Temple.

Mr Bajwa said no attempt was ever made to identify the civilians killed.

"This would have been possible if the army had involved the state police. But then at that time the soldiers were in a hurry to conclude their operation and withdraw from the Golden Temple complex.

"It was this kind of haste because of which scores of ordinary families not only lost their loved ones but spent months in a futile search for their dead relatives," said the DSP.

'Avoidable tragedy'

As a police officer who in later years witnessed and was part of combating Sikh Militancy in Punjab, Mr Apar Singh Bajwa believes that Operation Bluestar could easily have been avoided had a little extra thought gone into the initial planning.

"This became clear in two subsequent operations in 1986 and 1988, when the state police and paramilitary forces successfully tackled heavily armed militants who took control of the Temple Complex.

"Operations Black Thunder One (1986) and Black Thunder Two (1988) were successfully completed without any damage to the Golden Temple," he recalled.

The police officer went about his job despite suffering considerable personal anguish (as a Sikh) over the damage to the Golden Temple and having subsequently to live under a constant threat from the militants.

"I have no regrets. I did my duty as a policeman and I tried to act in as fair a manner as possible."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3774651.stm

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2012 15:44

^^^And your point being?

habal · Post by **habal** » 12 Oct 2012 15:49

At the end of the day when you have to choose between Khalistanis and Congress .. whom would an Indian choose in present circumstance ? If a referendum is conducted today, it's answer may surprise/shock many.