PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

[hnair]

We were always jealous of train burials.

[wong]

^^^^

That explains the high Indian train accident rate.

[sha]

Train safety is a big concern of all of us beacause both China and India depends heavilly on train transormation . Saddly up to now since 2000, 158 people died in train accidents in China.

I just googled and found to my astonishment that about 1500 people were killed in train accidents in India every year. I think Indian might well blame British for it. As far as I know, most of the rails in India were built in British colonial times.

[krisna]

China services industry slows as economy cools

China’s services sector last month grew at its weakest pace since at least March 2011, raising fears over an economic slowdown that officials are struggling to manage.

The drop follows similar surveys for manufacturing last month which showed continued contraction as new export orders fell sharply, putting pressure on the government to provide extra support for the economy.

The latest data almost certainly signal a seventh straight quarter of slowing economic growth, as China’s ruling party tries to sustain public support as it prepares for a once-a-decade handover of power next month.

[Austin]

As far as I know, most of the rails in India were built in British colonial times.

Dont think so most were built by India post independence. As far as rail accidents goes 9-10 people alone die every day due to rail accidents in Mumbai.

[Pratyush]

Train safety is a big concern of all of us beacause both China and India depends heavilly on train transormation . Saddly up to now since 2000, 158 people died in train accidents in China.

I just googled and found to my astonishment that about 1500 people were killed in train accidents in India every year. I think Indian might well blame British for it. As far as I know, most of the rails in India were built in British colonial times.

Only 158 since 2000. That has to be Shanghai Stats. The thing is that, remove rail fatalities. Considering the rush every holiday season in PRC, I can accept that number for one season only. And not for the last 12 years.

The difference when compared to India, is that India is an open country with a free flow of information. So ever death will be reported. Unlike the PRC, where live people following an accident instead of being rescued get buried alive along with the trail it self.

[kish]

Amnesty: Forced Home Evictions Are Rising in China

Cases of people being forcibly evicted from their homes and land have risen significantly in China, becoming the single greatest source of public discontent and a serious threat to the country's social and political stability, Amnesty International said Thursday.

Forced demolitions have long been a way of life in China. Decades of economic growth have been driven by real estate development, much of it on the backs of millions of residents forced to relocate to make way for factories and business ventures.

The human rights group said that local authorities seize and then sell off land in deals of questionable legitimacy, relying on the income to pay off huge debts incurred to finance stimulus projects.

Of 40 forced evictions that Amnesty said it examined in detail, nine culminated in the deaths of people protesting or resisting eviction. In one case, a 70-year-old woman was buried alive by an excavator as she tried to stop workers demolishing her house in Wuhan city in central Hubei province, the report said. Calls to Wuhan's government rang unanswered Thursday and a man from the propaganda department of Wuhan police said he hadn't heard about the case.

In another case, police in Wenchang town in southern Sichuan province were reported to have taken custody of a baby and refused to return him until his mother signed an eviction order.

Wenchang police told The Associated Press that the report was untrue and that the woman had abandoned her child at the police station. "The kid was taken away by its grandmother the next day," said a man surnamed He at Wenchang's police station. "Now everything has been settled and the family received subsidies from the government."

Some people who resist forced evictions end up in prison or in labor camps. Amnesty said a woman in Hexia township in southeastern Jiangxi province who petitioned authorities about her eviction was beaten and forced to undergo sterilization. Hexia's authority confirmed the sterilization but said it was because the woman had three children against the country's one-child policy. "The woman first refused to be sterilized, but reluctantly agreed after our strong persuasion. If she didn't agree at all, it would be impossible for her to have surgery," said a woman surnamed Xiao.

Some despairing residents have set themselves on fire. Amnesty said it documented 41 cases of self-immolations that occurred between January 2009 and January 2012.

1. a 70-year-old woman was buried alive
2. custody of a baby and refused to return him until his mother signed an eviction order
3. Some people who resist forced evictions end up in prison or in labor camps
4. beaten and forced to undergo sterilization
5. Some despairing residents have set themselves on fire

Did I miss something? What is the name of the country again? People's Republic of China huh

[Theo_Fidel]

Yeah! Like no one dies on China's railroads.
It is yet another closely guarded state secret. Just from local media reports one website has reported about 80 rail deaths in China in 2008 alone. No mention from the official press however and the Rail ministry reported 7 deaths. The true number is massively under reported.

India 1 Rail death per 8 Billion passenger KM.
EU 1 Rail Death per 12 Billion passenger KM
USA 1 Rail Death per 22 Billion passenger KM
China 1 Rail Death per 55 Billion passenger KM (yeah right )

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/04/ ... 7020080428



Also India reports both Passenger and Freight deaths together, while China only reports Passenger deaths. The Freight deaths is anyone's guess.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW the ONLY deaths on a dedicated HSR system anywhere in the world has happened in China. The German ICE was not HSR.

[SBajwa]

by sha
Train safety is a big concern of all of us beacause both China and India depends heavilly on train transormation . Saddly up to now since 2000, 158 people died in train accidents in China.

The 158 were probably not members of the communist party!! where did you pull out these statistics from? Chinese statistics are as Sidhu Bhaji says "like mini skirts, they reveal more than what they hide". Absolute control of the Red PArty over its populace!!!

[krisna]

The 158 were probably not members of the communist party!! where did you pull out these statistics from? Chinese statistics are as Sidhu Bhaji says "like mini skirts, they reveal more than what they hide". Absolute control of the Red PArty over itspopulace jewels !!!

there corrected.

[member_23677]

China’s state capitalism

THIS week Barack Obama decided to block a private Chinese company from buying a wind farm near an American military installation in Oregon. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the president’s decision—and it does come suspiciously close to the American election—it fits into a pattern that should worry China’s business people and rulers. In the West many of China’s best companies are treated with suspicion: Huawei, a telecoms giant, has been blocked from some markets in America, and a bid by CNOOC, a state oil firm, to buy Canada’s Nexen has raised a storm. And it is not just the West. The leaders of Myanmar, hardly democratic capitalists, have also turned against some Chinese firms (see article).

Behind this suspicion lies the perception—strengthened by the re-emergence of the country’s vast state-owned enterprises (SOEs)—that China’s businesses are too close to the Communist Party. Many in the regime believe the SOEs’ growth has helped China’s rise. The reverse is true: the SOEs have cashed in on China’s progress. Far more importantly, they now look sure to hinder it in the future.

In the 1990s, there was a logic behind promoting the SOEs. Having seen post-Soviet state assets fall into the hands of oligarchs, China built up a select group of SOEs with cheap loans, land and energy, so that the wealth would remain with the party. The best of them are world-class. The combined profits of Sinopec and China Mobile in 2009 were greater than the profits of China’s 500 largest private firms together. Long-term and ambitious, the SOEs increasingly attract the country’s best graduates. They contributed heavily to the investment splurge that rescued China’s economy from the global financial crisis, contributing to a process critics call guojin mintui; “the state advances, the private sector retreats”. The party has encouraged the consolidation of SOEs in important industries, and protected them from foreign competition (see article).

In many ways the state suffers as a result. An independent Chinese study has found that if all the government’s grants and hidden subsidies were taken away, the SOEs would lose money. They pay hardly any dividends back to the government. Instead much of the wealth has ended up enriching SOEs’ chiefs and political patrons, frequently sons and daughters of Communist Party leaders, who are so powerful that they often outrank the heads of bodies supposed to regulate them. Money that could be much more efficiently allocated is instead reinvested into SOEs, reinforcing their strength, and their bosses’ fortunes. These vested interests are in turn some of the most strident opponents of political and economic reform, since they are the ones with the most to lose.

The SOEs’ power harms foreign firms in China, which are increasingly frozen out by regulatory or market-access barriers. Abroad, the SOEs also cause problems—and not just suspicions in America. Myanmar’s leaders have tired of the plundering of their country by unaccountable Chinese SOEs—one reason for their recent decision to open to the West. Most important of all, SOEs damage small and medium-sized Chinese enterprises, which are starved of money. This deprives China of the bamboo capitalists whose drive and innovation is needed more than ever now that economic growth is slowing.

The road China has taken from a centrally planned economy has been brave. The former prime minister, Zhu Rongji, in the late 1990s, took a sledgehammer to the weakest SOEs. But, more than a decade later, it is worrying to see those that survived tightening their grip. The party needs to take on the vested interests, start to privatise SOEs, open their sectors to competition and allow the private sector once again to help pull China forward. Some reformers in China know this must happen. In April the prime minister, Wen Jiabao, gave a speech attacking the monopoly power of big state banks. But he is stepping down, and it is not clear who might champion the cause in the new leadership that takes office in November. Hardliners fear that the survival of the Communist Party is at stake. But so is the economic miracle of the past 30 years.

http://www.economist.com/node/21564235? ... c30b6f1709

[member_23677]

The toll factor

CHINA’S longest-ever officially arranged holiday is now over. The grumbling is just getting started. The official media are awash with articles complaining that the only extended vacations that most people enjoy are “golden week” public holidays. The result is huge pressure on transport and tourist facilities during those designated periods. For many, annoyance over congestion and price-gouging undermines, if not outweighs, the benefits of getting paid time-off.

The unprecedented length of this year’s early-October holiday (eight consecutive work-free days instead of the usual seven) if anything exacerbated the problem. It was caused by the compression of two holidays into one: the mid-autumn festival, which falls on a variable date in September according to the lunar calendar, and the National Day holiday, which begins on October 1st. Another unprecedented factor was also at play this time: a decision to abolish motorway tolls for cars during the holiday period. Chinese motorways being among the world’s most expensive to use, this was a big gift to drivers.

Chinese media played up the impact of this confluence of tourism-inducing circumstances, which in northern China coincided with a rare time of year when the weather is often both sunny as well as pleasantly cool. Reports spoke of exponential increases in road use compared with normal days. The Ministry of Transport said on its website (here, in Chinese) that there were 38.2% more vehicle journeys on toll roads during this year’s golden week than there were in the same period last year. Highways were clogged with traffic jams. Many reports (such as this one by China’s state-television network, CNTV) said the waiving of tolls played a part.

But how much was it to blame? Little hard evidence is yet available. Motorway traffic soared during the holiday, but it had in previous years too. Expressway jams are common at the beginning and end of “golden weeks” (as suggested by this report last year by Xinhua, a government news agency). And usage of other forms of transport rose this year too. The railway system handled 13.4% more passengers than it did during last year’s October break (see the ministry of railways’ website, in Chinese). Trips by ferry on the Yangzi River increased 26.2% (according to the ministry of transport’s website, in Chinese). The number of air passengers rose by 27% (ministry of transport, in Chinese), in spite of widespread complaints about high ticket-prices during the holiday.

The government certainly did not help by waiving the toll while keeping in place the requirement that a driver pick up an electronic card at his first toll station on entering a motorway, in order to hand it over at the next. In a bid to ease jams the authorities eventually decided to waive this obligation too, beginning on the fifth day of the holiday (see this report by Xinhua). Sure enough, traffic at the end of the holiday was far less congested than it was at the beginning. In Beijing, a city used to jams, this came as “a surprise to many”, said the Global Times, a newspaper based there.

Some doubts about the toll waiver’s impact have been aired in the Chinese press. Fu Weigang of the Shanghai Institute of Finance and Law wrote in the Oriental Morning Post, a local newspaper (here, in Chinese), that the number of cars in use had risen by 7.5% in the first six months of this year. This growth, he said, had to account for at least part of the road-use surge during the holiday. And as a transport-industry association in Guangdong province pointed out (in a local Chinese newspaper, the Yangcheng Evening News), expressway tolls are a relatively small consideration for road users during the holiday, compared with prices of hotels and tourist attractions. Your correspondent met a Beijing couple a few days before the holiday at an expressway service station hundreds of kilometres west of the capital. They had driven there to see the sights of the Gobi desert in the belief that, despite the tolls, it would be cheaper to travel before the holiday, when hotel and other prices would shoot up.

It is hard to reconcile road-use statistics from the October holiday with another set of figures that have received much attention in the Chinese press. Xinhua reported that the number of deaths in traffic accidents during the golden week was 794. This was an astonishing 46.4% lower than in the same period last year.

There might, however, be a plausible explanation for this (other than the highly implausible one that Chinese drivers are on much better form). This study published last year by the World Health Organisation says that figures for road deaths in China as supplied by the police (Xinhua’s source for the golden-week casualties) are considerably lower than data compiled by the ministry of health. Between 2002 and 2007, it says, the ministry’s figures were nearly twice as high as those given by the police. The report says the inconsistency strongly suggests that a decline in road-traffic mortality reported by the police in recent years “may not be genuine”. Road users in China would readily agree with that.{There goes the railway statistics in flame }

http://www.economist.com/blogs/analects ... -motorways

[zlin]

Reprint: China and the World’s Greatest Smart Grid Opportunity

China goes big in grid, and it’s all about transmission, distribution automation and smart meters.

Kamil Bojanczyk: October 9, 2012


GTM Research recently released a smart grid report, The Smart Grid in Asia, 2012-2016: Markets, Technologies and Strategies. This article is the part of a series of perspectives from the report's author on the tremendous smart grid opportunity in Asia.

In 2009, China embarked on a three-stage journey to become a world leader in smart grid technologies with its aptly named "Strong and Smart Grid" 11-year plan. The plan encompasses all aspects of the grid, including increasing generation and transmission capacity, a nationwide smart meter deployment, large-scale renewable energy integration, and a large substation build-out. Four years later, State Grid Corporation of China, the largest utility in the world and the brains behind China's smart grid plans, is in full swing with phase two of its ambitious smart grid deployment plans -- the Construction Phase, running from 2011 to 2015.

New transmission lines are a major focus for State Grid in the Construction Phase, which is struggling to meet the growing energy demands of the rising middle class in the East and South. Most coal, hydro, wind, and solar load sources are over 1,000 kilometers away from the populous east and south. High voltage (HV, under 300 kilovolts), extra-high voltage (EHV, 300 kilovolts to 765 kilovolts), and ultra-high voltage (UHV, 765 kilovolts and up) lines are being installed currently, with at least one 1,000-kilovolt UHV AC or DC line installed annually until 2015. Overall transmission line investments for 2015 are approximately $269 billion, equivalent to the combined market cap of ABB, GE, and Schneider Electric as of May 21, 2012. China is adding so much new transmission capacity and so many power lines that it could build three quarters the length of a new American transmission grid in just five years. When the dust settles, there will be over 200,000 kilometers of new 330-kilovolts-and-up transmission lines built, for a total of 900,000 kilometers of transmission lines, compared to 257,500 kilometers of transmission lines presently in the U.S.

Figure: Current and Future Transmission Line Length in China



At a cost of $1.05 million per mile for UHV transmission line and equipment, each UHV line requires billions of dollars to build, and State Grid put in a staggering $80 billion investment into 40,000 kilometer of UHV lines for the 2011 to 2015 Construction Phase. The business case is readily apparent: a 2,000-kilometer, 800-kilovolt UHV DC line has an incredibly low 3.5 percent line loss rate per 1,000 kilometer and a high 6.4-gigawatt transmission capacity, all the while being 30 percent cheaper than a 500-kilovolt EHV DC or 800-kilovolt UHV AC line of the same length. By 2020, UHV lines will have 300 gigawatts of transmission capacity, roughly split 60 percent AC and 40 percent DC.

The competitive business environment seen in the transmission grid build-out is indicative of the rest of the smart grid market in China -- high-quality goods, competitive costs, and a well-built relationship with State Grid all go a long way toward winning a contract. Fierce vendor competition exists, due in part to State Grid’s competitive construction procurement process. All projects costing over $300,000 to build are required to go through an open bidding process that aims to enforce fairness and transparency, but State Grid still holds the reigns tightly on choosing project developers. In the process, State Grid has the final say and does a rough 45/45/10 split when evaluating meters, based on quality, cost, and bankability of the company.

With the promise of power shortages disappearing and a stable energy supply base, the build-out of the transmission grid is ushering in the next era of smart grid opportunities in China. Smart meters and renewable integration are already big businesses, and new substation infrastructure has brought with it a vibrant and growing substation automation market. The need for better monitoring equipment has risen as China is keen on decreasing its system average interruption duration index (SAIDI) and improving power quality to its customers. State Grid has earmarked over $40 billion toward these smart grid technologies between 2011 and 2016, with smart meters alone being a $2.5 billion to $3 billion annual market.

State Grid has paid special attention to substation automation technologies, and plans on installing 74 new digital substations for 63 kilovolts to 500 kilovolts by 2015. While this number is small compared to the existing 40,000+ substation base, State Grid has stated it intends to include digital technology in all new substations built. Companies such as BPL Global have been expanding their substation operations in China, which has been met with stiff domestic competition. The substation market offers promising growth over the next ten years.

Figure: Digital Substation Investments From 2011 to 2015



The transmission grid build-out also has an impact on technologies at the distribution level and downward. China is building 36 million new urban homes between 2011 and 2015, and modern building automation and smart meter technologies will be utilized. The coming years promise to create a new and vibrant building automation market, but for the time being, the market continues to focus on meeting demand shortfalls and other key infrastructure challenges. Expect to see an exciting shift toward technologies at the distribution level and downward in the next five to ten years, as China’s grid solidifies its transmission grid and generation sources. If the past three years have been any indication of future progress, expect to see China become a leading smart grid market for the next five to ten years. The distribution grid build-out and digitization will be the next major indicator of China’s smart grid prowess.

For more information on China's grid build-out and The Smart Grid in Asia, 2012-2016: Markets, Technologies and Strategies, visit http://www.greentechmedia.com/research/ ... -2012-2016.

[Rishirishi]

I have experianced chinease state companies from near.

1
They often protect their "crown jewls" by allowing then a monopoly and letting them charge high prices.
Example Mobile phones. There are only 2 mobile phone companies and both of them charge approx rs 5 per min both for outgoing and incoming calls.
Compare that to India
http://www.chinamobilecard.com/china_mo ... ale.htm#03

Another example is the air industry. There seems to be many airlines, but all of them are controlled by the state and they all have more or less the same system. a typical 2 hours flight between guangzhou and Shanghai would cost approx Rs4-10K. This is above the prices you pay in India.


2
Several of the "crown jewls" get cheap loans, free land etc.


From what I have seen, the chinease state enterprices are not any

[ArmenT]

The toll factor

Another unprecedented factor was also at play this time: a decision to abolish motorway tolls for cars during the holiday period. Chinese motorways being among the world’s most expensive to use, this was a big gift to drivers.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/analects ... -motorways

I have a question to ask of the Chinese members here. What is the toll rate on the highway for a car in China? I realize that different highways may have different tolls, but how about the rate on a highway leading out of Beijing, for example? Why should abolishing toll rates for the holiday contribute so much traffic to the road? I find it a little strange that people can afford to buy a car and buy fuel for the car, but not afford to pay a toll.

[zlin]

Realty check time
China’s middle-class wealth share 10 times that of India!

Mid-2012, India’s total net wealth fell by 18%

According to the Credit Suisse’s third annual global wealth report 2012, the number of millionaires in India is going to increase by a whopping 53% to touch 84,000 by 2017.

The report also says that India has around 2,37,000 members of the top one percent of global wealth-holders, which sums up to a 0.5% share. However, it adds that between mid-2011 and mid-2012, India’s total net wealth fell by 18%. The study observes that rupee declined by more than 20% during the aforementioned period.

However, India’s wealth per capita (measured in rupees) has increased slightly, says the study. Nevertheless, the report points out that just 0.3% of the country’s population has a net worth of over $100,000. Given India’s large population, this low figure translates into 2.3 million people.

Across the emerging markets, India has personal wealth that is more inclination towards property and other real assets, which sums upto 84% of estimated household assets.

India’s personal debts stand at $162 per adult and the report says that it suffers from a significant under-reporting of household liabilities, which implies that the personal debt figured may have been underestimated.

While the study states that India will see 53% rise in millionaires seen by 2017, it adds that Brazil will see around 119% rise! On the flip side, high level of poverty exists with 95% of Indians having wealth below $10,000 versus 60% in China, says the study.

As a matter of concern for the India economy, the firm’s report says that China’s middle class wealth share is 10 times that of India. It explains that India’s middle class global wealth share has been stagnant at 3%

As the dollar has been steadily appreciating against other global currencies has resulted in aggregate global household wealth falling by 5.2% in dollar terms to $223 trillion from mid-2011 to mid-2012, says the report.

Total wealth
India: $3.2 trillion
Brazil: $3.3 trillion
US: $62 trillion
China: $20.2 trillion
UK: $12 trillion
Japan: $28 trillion

[RamaY]

^ Good for china.

With a $20T wealth and a 5% interest/consumption rate, china should be able to replace its US/EU exports and become self-sufficient.

Good luck.

[member_22539]

The aggression of the 50-centers is directly proportional their fear of losing face. Now that the Chinese economy is nosediving (oh, the real bad news is never revealed), we see more overtime from the 50-centers. Besides, they must be having wives and girlfriends threatening to leave them if they don't make more. I bet they rather be the mistress of a party princeling than some deadbeat 50-center. So, don't be angry at them, feel sorry for them.

[krisna]

x post from yugandhar--
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1351502


check the graph-- clearly China has some way to go without copying.

1) Has more companies than India supported by Communist party.- more employment
2) Innovation is less- as communism does not help in the process as all are equal. Hence no innovation by few bright.
3) same with others.

communism means all are equal except the princelings.

[kish]

Realty check time
China’s middle-class wealth share 10 times that of India!

Mid-2012, India’s total net wealth fell by 18%

According to the Credit Suisse’s third annual global wealth report 2012, the number of millionaires in India is going to increase by a whopping 53% to touch 84,000 by 2017.

The report also says that India has around 2,37,000 members of the top one percent of global wealth-holders, which sums up to a 0.5% share. However, it adds that between mid-2011 and mid-2012, India’s total net wealth fell by 18%. The study observes that rupee declined by more than 20% during the aforementioned period.

However, India’s wealth per capita (measured in rupees) has increased slightly, says the study. Nevertheless, the report points out that just 0.3% of the country’s population has a net worth of over $100,000. Given India’s large population, this low figure translates into 2.3 million people.

Across the emerging markets, India has personal wealth that is more inclination towards property and other real assets, which sums upto 84% of estimated household assets.

India’s personal debts stand at $162 per adult and the report says that it suffers from a significant under-reporting of household liabilities, which implies that the personal debt figured may have been underestimated.

While the study states that India will see 53% rise in millionaires seen by 2017, it adds that Brazil will see around 119% rise! On the flip side, high level of poverty exists with 95% of Indians having wealth below $10,000 versus 60% in China, says the study.

As a matter of concern for the India economy, the firm’s report says that China’s middle class wealth share is 10 times that of India. It explains that India’s middle class global wealth share has been stagnant at 3%

As the dollar has been steadily appreciating against other global currencies has resulted in aggregate global household wealth falling by 5.2% in dollar terms to $223 trillion from mid-2011 to mid-2012, says the report.

Total wealth
India: $3.2 trillion
Brazil: $3.3 trillion
US: $62 trillion
China: $20.2 trillion
UK: $12 trillion
Japan: $28 trillion

Reality check for whom? China or India?

You have scored a major self goal quoting this article to bash India in a "PRC Economy" thread.

Disproportionately large wealth of some will exasperate the economic inequality of the rich and poor. It is a stern reminder of poor wealth redistribution in "Communist" China. GINI Index is a testament to this fact.

Country GINI Index
China 47
India 36

GINI Index statistics
Global GINI index

India sure has a lot to learn from China, But look for the right article and post it in the appropriate thread.

[Don]

The aggression of the 50-centers is directly proportional their fear of losing face. Now that the Chinese economy is nosediving (oh, the real bad news is never revealed)

Every economy is slowing down and Indian is nosediving even faster.


IMF cuts India 2012 growth forecast to 4.9 pct

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-cuts- ... MAE1PQtDMD

[Hari Seldon]

^^^yawn, dawn.

Perhaps you didn't know this but India has long lived with and survived growth rates lower than 4.9%. Its polity, constitution, democracy and sense of nationhood peacefully survived such growth rates over years and years.

Now, who knows if the CCP will be able to survive - peacefully or otherwise - nosediving growth rates, eh? Sure, maybe it will. But it'll be interesting to see nonetheless.

[Theo_Fidel]

I'm sure those claims of brilliant personal wealth will come as a surprise to these folks!
Revolution is coming....

[Don]

^^^yawn, dawn.

Perhaps you didn't know this but India has long lived with and survived growth rates lower than 4.9%. Its polity, constitution, democracy and sense of nationhood peacefully survived such growth rates over years and years.

Now, who knows if the CCP will be able to survive - peacefully or otherwise - nosediving growth rates, eh? Sure, maybe it will. But it'll be interesting to see nonetheless.

^^^yawn, dawn.

They will not only survive they will do much better than India. Especially when it comes child hunger.

Cheers Gentlemen...

[vina]

They will not only survive they will do much better than India. Especially when it comes child hunger.

Like in the 60s/70s during the "Gleat Reap Folwald"? Ask your folks (mom, dad, grandparents etc), how did they survive during then and what they ate!

Chailman Mao said that eveyrone was eating well and there was "Gleat Plospelity"

[sha]

^^^yawn, dawn.
They will not only survive they will do much better than India. Especially when it comes child hunger.
Cheers Gentlemen...

We Chinese should keep in mind the hungry Indian children will have a right to vote when they grow up. I think they're much more lucky and happier.

Like in the 60s/70s during the "Gleat Reap Folwald"? Ask your folks (mom, dad, grandparents etc), how did they survive during then and what they ate!
Chailman Mao said that eveyrone was eating well and there was "Gleat Plospelity"

"Great Leap forward" happened during 1958~1960 and then followed the fame until 1962. The Chinese people may still be poor now, but the food is no longer a problem any more and the horrible memory is becoming faint. Sadlly in some places on the planet, hungry is still a very wide-spread and serious problem. If you're interested in the feelings of hungry, please go ask them. I believe you know where they are.

[Don]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 802591.cms

China's rise, Mumbai says ‘Ni Hao' to Mandarin

Hemali Chhapia, TNN | Oct 14, 2012, 12.50AM IST

MUMBAI: Till a few years ago, it was said, you could talk to just about anyone in the world if you knew English, Spanish and French. The dramatic rise of China has seen Mandarin, slowly but surely, enter this universal league of languages. The growing economic and cultural clout of the Chinese has prompted many schools in the city to offer Mandarin, some from as early as primary years.

Three-year-old Raina Kothari of Malabar Hill, who attends Sunflower Nursery, has been learning Mandarin for two months as her mother feels it is a "universal language" that Raina will require as she grows, applies to college and later looks for a job.

Four-and-a-half-year-old Srimoyee Mukherjee goes to Arya Vidya Mandir, Bandra, for the restof the week, but come Sunday morning, she and three other kids, get tutored in Mandarin.

When Srimoyee's mother passed out from school in 1995, she studied French and knows it flakily. "But say 15 years from now, it looks like Mandarin will hold a person in good stead. So I am exposing my child to the language," said Prema.

The power of language is often perceived to be proportional to the economic strength of a country. So it seems with China too, where novelist Mo Yan was announced the literature Nobel winner on Wednesday.

Dhirubhai Ambani School students Neil (9) and Nayantara Kothari (12), children of a top banker, are picking up Mandarin as their parents feel that China will continue to be an economic powerhouse. "Apart from the fact that our kids will have a competitive advantage over others, they will be acquainted with the rich ancient culture and its language," said their mother Vandana Batra.

For many actually, it is less about delighting in the language and more about the fact that Mandarin is becoming synonymous with the language of business. "I am learning Mandarin because my parents told me that it is the language of the future to do business," a student of Oberoi International School told Lu Kong, his Mandarin instructor. The school is offering Mandarin as an after-school activity for students upwards of Class III. "We have started offering Mandarin from this year and the response has been fine," said principal Vladimir Kuskovski.

In August, the CBSE board offered to train teachers in Mandarin so that the language could be taught in schools. "It is the next world language," said Nalini Pinto, principal of NSS Hillspring International School that offers the first level of Mandarin.

Several other schools like BIS and Podar International have also introduced Mandarin, with help from Inchin Closer, a firm that teaches the language. Nazia Vasi, the firm's founder, says: "I teach several school students whose parents know that this is an important language. If you know Hindi and Mandarin, you are talking to 3.5 billion people in the world."

The trend has caught up outside the city too. In Bangalore, Ni Hao (Hello) has had some students attend Mandarin classes with their parents. "There are Indians who want to migrate to China and want their children to know the language. And there are some who are expatriates, who want their kids to be fluent in the language," said Mahesh K, coordinator of the centre.

[krishnan]

There are people who want to learn french , german , even spanish and few other foreign languages too....

[vina]

"Great Leap forward" happened during 1958~1960 and then followed the fame until 1962. The Chinese people may still be poor now, but the food is no longer a problem any more and the horrible memory is becoming faint.

It is always worth remembering that. For eg.. food was not really a "problem" then too.. Look at this "giant ears of corn and wheat " per the Chinese govt.


Or this picture of Chinese being exhorted to kill Sparrows


And consequences like this!

Sadlly in some places on the planet, hungry is still a very wide-spread and serious problem. If you're interested in the feelings of hungry, please go ask them. I believe you know where they are.

. Indeed. Only when you realize and recognize that you have a problem at all that it shows up! If like during the "Gleat Reap Folwald" , Chailan Mao kept insisting that there was "Great Plospelity" and everyone was well fed, then there is "no problem".

Case in point the recent "increase" in "welfare" by "Glandpa Wen" . The Chinese posters here were tom tomming it as a "gleat benevolent" gesture by Glandpa and I had pointed it out that the Chinese govt , just increased the level at which they recognized destitution from a ridiculously low level to a globally accepted $1.25 per day and that resulted in nearly a 100 million getting recognized as poor. AND when I pointed out that this "gleat benevorence" increased the measure to exactly the same $1.25 that India already had as it's measure to recognize destitution, and punctured the bombast of the 50 centers here, who came here swining, thinking that it was a "gleat reap" and that the measures were far ahead of India and Global standards, there was deathly silence on that since then. Go back a few pages in this thread and look at it.

In fact, your govt is doing exactly what it has been since Mao and his "Gleat Reap Folwald". Sure things have improved. But projecting Beijing or Shanghai or a few metros and extending it to China as a whole is ridiculous, just as it would be to project Mumbai, Delhi or Chennai or Bangalore to India as a whole. Your govt lied during the 50s and 60s. It is lying to you again. It is up to you to drink your Govt's Kool Aid or ask your parents and grand parents about that period.

[ashi]

The aggression of the 50-centers is directly proportional their fear of losing face. Now that the Chinese economy is nosediving (oh, the real bad news is never revealed)

Every economy is slowing down and Indian is nosediving even faster.


IMF cuts India 2012 growth forecast to 4.9 pct

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-cuts- ... MAE1PQtDMD

You don't see Vina running around to challenge everyone for the bid that India outgrows China anymore like he did three years ago, you know how things are going... LoL! But you know he is going to pull that Shanghai statistics story again for sure, like many this forum has been in the last 10+ years.

[Hari Seldon]

I can understand India looking up to and aspiring to follow China's impressive advances in some areas. Hence our interest in discussing China.

But what reason for the superior Han to haunt the little forums of Indians, eh? After all, India is far behind (and always has been) the middle kingdom. No?

I for one do not deny PRC's impressive advances in quite a few areas. If its the 'affront of Indian denial' you seek to fight on here.

Having suffered 2 centuries of colonial loot, subjugation and exploitation, we in India may finally, in another generation or two, get rid of the worst conditions we've inherited - poverty, malnutrition and disease. Many here (and I among them too, for a while) wished we could steamroll opposition and get things done the way PRC does them. Its not going to happen and I don;t even know if its the best way to get these things to happen. Anyway, let's see. Time will tell where this is going.

[KLP Dubey]

So, don't be angry at them, feel sorry for them.

I do feel sorry for them. Their meekness in real life is compensated by posting "feel good" stuff on the internet. By posting on BRF, they allow a large number of readers to see the difference between rational discussion and propaganda posts. They are helping us, and not their country, by caricaturing themselves like this.

I would propose that for every $0.5 they earn with a hilarious post, BRF match with a $0.5 donation. That would be $1 per post for wong, zlin, sha, etc. All they have to do is to send in their real names and addresses, and list of posts made, in order to receive a yearly check and a fortune cookie. I am willing to sponsor the first year's checks. It's the least I can do, since I have people from PRC working for me for free.

Holla fo' a dolla, bia*ches!

KL

[kish]

^^^yawn, dawn.
They will not only survive they will do much better than India. Especially when it comes child hunger.
Cheers Gentlemen...

We Chinese should keep in mind the hungry Indian children will have a right to vote when they grow up. I think they're much more lucky and happier.

Like in the 60s/70s during the "Gleat Reap Folwald"? Ask your folks (mom, dad, grandparents etc), how did they survive during then and what they ate!
Chailman Mao said that eveyrone was eating well and there was "Gleat Plospelity"

"Great Leap forward" happened during 1958~1960 and then followed the fame until 1962. The Chinese people may still be poor now, but the food is no longer a problem any more and the horrible memory is becoming faint. Sadlly in some places on the planet, hungry is still a very wide-spread and serious problem. If you're interested in the feelings of hungry, please go ask them. I believe you know where they are.[/quote]

They are certainly lucky. They don't have to go through Organ harvest, labour camps, detention centers, mental hospitals, Forced Eviction, Forced abortion and many more.

[sha]

I do feel sorry for them. Their meekness in real life is compensated by posting "feel good" stuff on the internet. By posting on BRF, they allow a large number of readers to see the difference between rational discussion and propaganda posts. They are helping us, and not their country, by caricaturing themselves like this.

I would propose that for every $0.5 they earn with a hilarious post, BRF match with a $0.5 donation. That would be $1 per post for wong, zlin, sha, etc. All they have to do is to send in their real names and addresses, and list of posts made, in order to receive a yearly check and a fortune cookie. I am willing to sponsor the first year's checks. It's the least I can do, since I have people from PRC working for me for free.

Holla fo' a dolla, bia*ches!

KL

Dear KL, thanks for your kindness. I will tell your a secret. The CPC boss have rasied the payment from $0.5 to $10 for a post here, so I make a good living and you can save you sorry and money on someone else. Since you're kind, rich, generous , patriotic, and in view of the fact that nearly half of india's children under five suffering malnutrition, I got an advice for you. Please list you true name here, and donte your money to local charity organization intead of me for every post I make. Let us see,
1.I get my money from CPC;
2. You will get me working for you;
3. Your love feeings for your country will get satisfied;
4. The hungry Indian Children will get food.
It seems a wonderful arrangment.

Thanks KL again. Let's do it.

[wong]

Having suffered 2 centuries of colonial loot, subjugation and exploitation, we in India may finally, in another generation or two, get rid of the worst conditions we've inherited - poverty, malnutrition and disease. Many here (and I among them too, for a while) wished we could steamroll opposition and get things done the way PRC does them. Its not going to happen and I don;t even know if its the best way to get these things to happen. Anyway, let's see. Time will tell where this is going.

An oldie, but goodie...

The British left six decades too early by Aakar Patel

http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/1320493 ... des-t.html

[VikramS]

wong:

You seriously think that an article by Aakar Patel will help you sway the opinion here? Reminds of a time when another drone posted an article by Arundhati Roy of all people...

As per sha, the per post price has gone up to $10. At least do some homework about the author before posting; justify the wage increase by adding some value.

[Sri]

Dear KL, thanks for your kindness. I will tell your a secret. The CPC boss have rasied the payment from $0.5 to $10 for a post here, so I make a good living and you can save you sorry and money on someone else. Since you're kind, rich, generous , patriotic, and in view of the fact that nearly half of india's children under five suffering malnutrition, I got an advice for you. Please list you true name here, and donte your money to local charity organization intead of me for every post I make. Let us see,
1.I get my money from CPC;
2. You will get me working for you;
3. Your love feeings for your country will get satisfied;
4. The hungry Indian Children will get food.
It seems a wonderful arrangment.

Thanks KL again. Let's do it.

Sha,

There are no starving Children in China? If 'No'. Where does your stats come from?

In India do you mean starving children or malnourished? There is a difference in 2.

[kish]

^^^
Sri, Its a waste of time asking cheenis for stats & debate. Evidence of last 3 days suggests, either they won't or incapable of doing it.

They are hell bent on turning this into a 'benis' thread for china.

The "hong kong'ers" are rightly calling cheenis 'locusts'.

[wong]

wong:

You seriously think that an article by Aakar Patel will help you sway the opinion here? Reminds of a time when another drone posted an article by Arundhati Roy of all people...

As per sha, the per post price has gone up to $10. At least do some homework about the author before posting; justify the wage increase by adding some value.

There is no swaying the mindless "Incredible India" crackheads here. People who would rather believe in stupid Internet conspiracy theories than actually disputing the many good points raised in the article. I'm just glad Hong Kong is Hong Kong thanks to British laws and Chinese smarts. Everyone here can can at least agree on one thing though, I too am very glad the British left India six decades ago.

BTW for all you "50 Center" conspiracy nuts, there are no "Wong's" from the PRC mainland. Not one. Figure it out.

[nakul]

I'm just glad Hong Kong is Hong Kong thanks to British laws and Chinese smarts

Perhaps the Hong Kong should stop opposing the CCP brainwashing that PRC has been doing to their own population for generations

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... ml#photo=2

Students shout during a class boycott over national education in the Chinese University of Hong Kong. Hong Kong's government withdrew plans for a compulsory Chinese school curriculum on Saturday after tens of thousands took to the streets in protest at what they said was a move to “brainwash” students.