Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 15 Oct 2012 23:54

RajitO wrote:Breaking wind ... have been doing it for quite some time.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 16 Oct 2012 00:07

eklavya wrote:
RajitO wrote:Breaking wind ... have been doing it for quite some time.

Tsk tsk...4 years old are we?

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 16 Oct 2012 00:17

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
You're only as old as the troll you're feeding ... (with apologies to Groucho Marx)

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 16 Oct 2012 06:45

"Last week at Stans, 11 October, the first PC 7 Mk II for the India Air Force (P 101, sn 690, temporarily registered as HB-HCA) was airborne. See some pictures on flickr.com, "PC 7 MK II". " - Stephan

More pics and higher res by Stephan here -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88541753@N05/

----

PS: Shouldn't the PC 7s get the standard IAF grey paint?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Oct 2012 07:13

I would think you want basic trainers with some bright colors in tail for visibility

its being flown by new kids after all,

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 16 Oct 2012 17:35

IAF to focus on enhacing operation capabilities: Air Chief Marshal

Air Force officials said the focus of the conference is on critical Electronic Warfare Systems required by the force.

The meeting will also do “a thorough review of the external and internal security situation, as also the ramifications in the next two years”, they said.

Browne had recently said the security situation in country's neighbourhood was a “matter of serious concern”.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 16 Oct 2012 23:35

Surya wrote:I would think you want basic trainers with some bright colors in tail for visibility

its being flown by new kids after all,

Sirji, correct me if I am wrong, but the roundel looks like that of the Swiss Air Force.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Oct 2012 00:01

atreya wrote:
Surya wrote:I would think you want basic trainers with some bright colors in tail for visibility

its being flown by new kids after all,
Sirji, correct me if I am wrong, but the roundel looks like that of the Swiss Air Force.

only as long as they're flying in Switzerland. they'll get the IAF fin flash and roundels just when they will have to be delivered to the IAF.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Oct 2012 03:36

India to give power punch to Jaguar fighters

...
The IAF on Monday issued a RFP (request for proposal) to M/s Honeywell Aerospace, the US-based manufacturer of aircraft engines and avionics, to ``completely re-engine'' 125 Jaguars and provide 270 F-125IN turbofan engines.

Concurrently, IAF is all set for the first test-flight of a Jagaur fighter upgraded to ``Darin-III'' standards by defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), with new-generation avionics including a glass cockpit and autopilot, next month.
...
...
As for the Jaguar project, the plan is to finish the "design and development'' phase with Honeywell on the initial two fighters by 2015-16. The "complete re-engine'' phase of the remaining 123 fighters will be completed by 2023-24 by HAL under transfer of technology from the US firm.

IAF had inducted 40 Jaguars from UK from 1979 onwards, which was later followed by indigenous licensed production by HAL. But with progressive upgrades of avionics and weapon systems, the overweight fighters have been suffering from their "under-powered'' Adour-811 engines manufactured by Rolls-Royce. Several Jaguar crashes have also occurred due to engine problems.

"There is a serious low thrust engine issue. Earlier, Rolls-Royce was also in the race to supply more powerful engines for the Jaguars but the company withdrew its bid last year. So, IAF got the clearance from the Defence Acquisitions Council to move the project on a single vendor (Honeywell) basis,'' said a source.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Oct 2012 06:02

putnanja wrote:India to give power punch to Jaguar fighters

Not sure why the IAF wants to continue using the Jags until 2040/50. That would be a 70 year old plane by then!

The Jag was already retired for the Tornadoes in UK and other services. Okay, it has got significant avionics upgrades and stuff, but all the same, the platform is long in the tooth.

This might be last remaining dedicated strike aircraft for the IAF. But you gotta wonder.. with the LCA, Rafale and the Su-30s , all of them being multirole, do you need a dedicated striker at all (around 125 airframes), not to mention the FGFA and AMCA that would start rolling in by that time.

Maybe time to gracefully retire the Jaguars.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Oct 2012 06:45

Nobody has yet fielded a pure transport ac in converted bomber role. All the big trucks like bear badger boner buff have long slim fuselage and were designed as bombers. Only the atlantique, nimrod, p3 orion and now p8 seem to be civilian types converted to small torpedo or sonobuoy bays.

The bulky fuselage and very solid floor of cargo haulers is very unsuitable for rotary or vertical bomb racks. Would need a total redesign and test program.

Methinks a conversion of the p8 with a full height central bomb bay, er fuel tanks and maybe 4 nirbhays underwing would be easier..god and qa khan willing

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 17 Oct 2012 09:46

India to train Indonesia’s FLANKER pilots, HAl to support Sukhoi fleet

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 17 Oct 2012 10:14

^^^ Arrey vina ji, the Jaguar is our A 10 warthog. Kaam ki cheez hai , even though it might not look or perform like anything.
Traditional style.

Doggy cowgirl reverse scissors ke time main, no-one wants to ditch the missionary......tradition!
(sorry OT!)

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 17 Oct 2012 11:35

Wiki says that we inducted Jaguar in 2001. These new Jaguars can easily serve till 2040 with the right upgrades. I am glad they are retaining the older frames that still work. The Migs are goin to be retired soon & without Jaguars & Mirages, expect the PAF to do an equal equal with the IAF. The USAF has shown that pathetic airframes can be made super duper 5th gen aircraft with pixie dust & halo light. There is no other way they are going to get to that 44 squadrons mentioned in the report since Rafale & Tejas would be slow to roll out from HAL, atleast initially. With the FGFA nos reduced, the Jaguars & Mirages are here to stay.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Oct 2012 11:50

Indian Air Force Chief Outlines Modernization Plans

A-330 would likely be our new Air Refuellers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Oct 2012 11:59

the jags do pack a meaty pair of cannons. some work should be done in slinging external drums of ammo to let these burrp for prolonged use.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Oct 2012 14:57

Septimus P. wrote:The Apache order is currently ok but we should quickly order more, we need another 122 more. 88 should go for the IA and 44 for IAF.

So you want India to spend anthe $7.7 Billion in addition to $1.4 Billion for Apaches.

Glad to know where your loyalities lie.

Damn! Why dont we have a 600Billion budget for nation with a 2 trillion economy.

We could 100000 TOmohawks and Aegis cruisers, Sea wolf class subs, Nimitz class CN with battlegroups.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 17 Oct 2012 15:37

^^^ and what good does it do to the USA, all that armament spread out all over the world?

it saves us money, for sure.

Aditya Watts · Post by **Aditya Watts** » 17 Oct 2012 21:35

vina wrote:
putnanja wrote:India to give power punch to Jaguar fighters
The Jag was already retired for the Tornadoes in UK and other services. Okay, it has got significant avionics upgrades and stuff, but all the same, the platform is long in the tooth.

This might be last remaining dedicated strike aircraft for the IAF. But you gotta wonder.. with the LCA, Rafale and the Su-30s , all of them being multirole, do you need a dedicated striker at all (around 125 airframes), not to mention the FGFA and AMCA that would start rolling in by that time.

Maybe time to gracefully retire the Jaguars.

I remember that the British Armed Forces were protesting formally against the early retirement of the Jags as it was a preferred choice of strike platform even though they operate the heavier Tornado. In the conflicts in the Balkan and the Gulf, the Jag provided a large part of the strikes. In India's case the only drawback of the Jag are the underpowered engine but fortunately that will be taken care of with the Honeywell upgrade.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Oct 2012 21:45

the raf jags didn't have any of the nav/attack system updates we've had. so their utility in poor weather was not too good - and overtaken by tornado

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 17 Oct 2012 22:20

[quote="putnanja"]India to give power punch to Jaguar fighters
[quote]

Honeywell has this promotional Video on the engine.

http://www.honeywellforjaguar.com/demos.php

member_23844 · Post by **member_23844** » 18 Oct 2012 20:07

Saw 2 jaguars flying low over the Ambala AFS today.Also saw a third one parked 100 meter away from the entry gate to the AFS.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Oct 2012 23:22

rohitdkx, pls post reports mindful of security of airbases. Don't want jihadi types to get any wrong ideas.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 19 Oct 2012 15:27

Parochial comments that undermine other services and are to the detriment of India's war fighting capability lead to a loss of respect for the individual, not of the office that the individual holds. I suppose contradicting Gen. Bikram Singh through both statements made by him and the Air Force PRO is highly respectful.

[quote]

It is normal for profressionals to argue and both the Chief are among the best in their own fields but obviously differ in ideas, I urged respect on your behalf because you are not a profressional.

Looking at the amount of ground work the IAF has been doing, we might as well transfer, the upgraded Mirages, Jags, mig-27s, upgraded mig-29s and Su-30mki to the IA as well

since they all have very useful A2G capability. They might as well give the IA the C-130Js and C-17s as well since they will aso be used primarily to support ground operations.

IMO choppers can better function with IAF since they control the air and have extensive air survaillance capabilties, they have the primary role of air control. Army controlling some choppers has no added value, IAF can do the same job even better since they have the overall picture of the air. They should instead work on smooth flow of battlefield info and quick responsive air support using choppers or other assets when needed quickly. IA will always need air support in terms of rotary and fixed winged logistics and heavy hitting fast movers/choopers. The idea of givng control to those who actually need it has issues. The Garud force though used by the AF is trained exclusively by Army/paramilitary veteran commandos.

The numbers of Dhruvs, LUH and MUH i propose could be high but anythign that allows our AF to mobilize hundreds if not thousands asap will only add for extensive capability. 1000 Dhruvs
would cost 8 billion.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Oct 2012 06:54

The latest Vayu has a great article on what ails the grounded HPT 32 and how a resurrection and saving of consts is technically feasible.

Over the years the HPT 32 has suffered over 200 abrupt engine cut outs due to fuel starvation, and many fatal acidents until 2009 when two instructors were killed and the plane was grounded leading to the Pilatus purchase.It turns out that there are two main issues

1. There is a central collector fuel tank situated in the fuselage behind the wing tanks which does not have the best design standards. When the HPT 32 flies more than 6 deg nose down, the central tank fills with air and even though the tank has a 10 liter capacity, only 3.5 liters is usable

2. The HPT 32 has has engine stoppages even in ground runs after 2009There is a thing called the fuel line divider which is manufactured by a third party. The engine is Lycoming and the lane is HAL. HAL insists on servicing the fuel line divider and Lycoming has recommended that this should be done by the original equipment manufacturer. The HPT 32 has has engine stoppages even in ground runs after 2009

Lycoming and Gipps aero (now Mahindra Gipps Aero) have been consulted and it is apparently possible to set these problems right.

As an unrelated point, IJT is delayed because of problems with the Russian engine that I believe led to the crash

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Oct 2012 09:58

Shivji, would it be possible to post a scan of the article/snippet on the IJT from Vayu? Or was it a chaiwallah that gave you that piece of news?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Oct 2012 14:48

Kartik wrote:Shivji, would it be possible to post a scan of the article/snippet on the IJT from Vayu? Or was it a chaiwallah that gave you that piece of news?

No I'll post a scan. IJT engine news is separate - I think it was posted on here can't recall where I saw it. Will search.

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Oct 2012 17:58

There was some news that Russians solved the engine issue couple of years back (but it has continued to provide fig leaf for delay at HAL end??)

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Oct 2012 19:24

There was some news that Russians solved the engine issue couple of years back (but it has continued to provide fig leaf for delay at HAL end??)

1. provide the link - a brand new engine has no problems!!!!1

Remember I said SKAT turned down IJT for that reason. Cannot rely on a new engine
2. The Russians also say Gorshkov is all fine just needs some paint

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Oct 2012 12:43

vic wrote:There was some news that Russians solved the engine issue couple of years back (but it has continued to provide fig leaf for delay at HAL end??)

Rodina lovers start again... why will you not believe HAL when the say the problem is with the engine?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 24 Oct 2012 13:22

The AURA UCAV is going to use the Kaveri as its engine. The first prototype is supposed to fly in 2015. They should use the same for Tejas as well. It might be underpowered as compared to the ge414 but it sure will be sanction proof. Is there any concrete data whether it will be 100% Indian or a SNECMA-GTRE joint collaboration? I am guessing that certain parts will be based on French tech.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 24 Oct 2012 13:35

Dmurphy wrote:
rohitvats wrote: And what happens to the cadre of pilots and airmen in IAF who work in the two Mi-24/35 Squadrons? You don't simply let such talent sit idle because AAC will not fly attack helicopters.
Call me crazy if you will, but why not transfer the entire gang of IAF Helo pilots and the support staff to AAC? Wouldn't it mean optimum utilization of their experience and talent? Why not?

You will have en-mass resignations buddy. Army and Air Force cultures are like water and oil. They two don't mix..

Will · Post by **Will** » 24 Oct 2012 20:33

Shrinivasan wrote:
vic wrote:There was some news that Russians solved the engine issue couple of years back (but it has continued to provide fig leaf for delay at HAL end??)
Rodina lovers start again... why will you not believe HAL when the say the problem is with the engine?

There is too much on HAL's plate. HAL needs to be split and maybe one half privatised.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Oct 2012 21:33

Shrinivasan wrote:
vic wrote:There was some news that Russians solved the engine issue couple of years back (but it has continued to provide fig leaf for delay at HAL end??)
Rodina lovers start again... why will you not believe HAL when the say the problem is with the engine?

Lets just go with the french engine till the engine gets resolved. We don't need uber powerful engine for this.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Oct 2012 22:59

shiv wrote:
2. The HPT 32 has has engine stoppages even in ground runs after 2009There is a thing called the fuel line divider which is manufactured by a third party. The engine is Lycoming and the lane is HAL. HAL insists on servicing the fuel line divider and Lycoming has recommended that this should be done by the original equipment manufacturer. The HPT 32 has has engine stoppages even in ground runs after 2009

Shiv,

Is HAL's servicing of fuel divider line inadequate? Would the OEM do something different? Will it make a difference to the flying condition of this aircraft if OEM vs HAL serviced that part?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Oct 2012 23:23

Lalmohan wrote:the raf jags didn't have any of the nav/attack system updates we've had. so their utility in poor weather was not too good - and overtaken by tornado

They were actually the most modern Jaguars around, with TIALD slewed by HOTAS and even HMS brought in later. DARIN2 caught up in most respects with even newer tech. DARIN3 will be better in that it gets a radar.

http://www.targetlock.org.uk/jaguar/service_uk.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... jaguar.htm

One advantage the RAF Jaguars had & which will probably remain unique is their TERPROM. I don't think thats part of even DARIN3. Though not passive, the radar can possibly confer a low flying TF mode.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Oct 2012 05:47

Cybaru wrote:
shiv wrote:
2. The HPT 32 has has engine stoppages even in ground runs after 2009There is a thing called the fuel line divider which is manufactured by a third party. The engine is Lycoming and the lane is HAL. HAL insists on servicing the fuel line divider and Lycoming has recommended that this should be done by the original equipment manufacturer. The HPT 32 has has engine stoppages even in ground runs after 2009
Shiv,

Is HAL's servicing of fuel divider line inadequate? Would the OEM do something different? Will it make a difference to the flying condition of this aircraft if OEM vs HAL serviced that part?

No such information is given in the article. But the engine manufacturer does not recommend it.

mody · Post by **mody** » 25 Oct 2012 15:20

If the new Russian engine is the cause of all the problems with the IJT, why not go back to the French Larzac engine and get on with it.
The testing with the russian engine can aslo continue. Kind of like IJT MK-1 and MK-II. Finish the development with the Larzac engine and induct abut 3-4 dozen planes. Once the testing with the russian engine is complete, induct the rest of planes withe new engines.

The older aircrafts can be upgraded later if required.

http://idp.justthe80.com/air-force-proj ... ara-hjt-36

However, as per above website, the plane that crashed in April 2011, PT-1, actually had the Larzac engine and not the Al-55I.
The hot weather trials for Al-55I were conducted in early 2011 in Jaisalmer and were said to be successful.

The third prototype had its ground runs on 27th July 2012, as per wiki. Don't know if its taken to the skies as yet or not.

To me it seems like there more problems with the IJT then just the integration of the new engine.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2012 15:37

larzac engine was rejected on the ground of less thrust!

was there no other suitable engine on world market that we had to go with a greenfield AL55 ?
even the Adour 811 or the Honeywell engine proposed for Jags might have worked? cut the afterburner out with a SW lock, keep HW same.

the Hawk AJT engine would also have been a good fit

Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Adour Mk. 951 turbofan with FADEC, 29 kN (6,500 lbf) 29 kN

I dont think any country would take up development of a new IJT and in parallel hope to use a new engine as well and not face schedule slippages.

I dont know why we have this sweetheart deal of 1000 engines on a no contest basis to Sukhoi...some palms might have been greased over it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Oct 2012 19:19

maybe Kartik can explain if there is any logic in trying a new engine and a new aircraft

You would think the LCA\Kaveri episode would have given them pause

The SKAT guys were smart to say no

I am hoping for a stripped down hawk now