Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

[venkat_r]

.........
The US is telling the Pakistani army, "You stay by us. Stick with us. We will ensure your safety and survival and please eliminate the Taliban." And US governments are telling Americans that this is a good policy that is bound to work despite glaring evidence to the contrary. One has to be a great admirer (or apologist) of the US government to believe this story and anyone who pushes that story on here is no different from a US government mouthpiece even if he believes that he is not.

To me it seems more likely that the US does not know what to do. It does not have the power to coerce the Pakistani army and cannot (or will not) take on the Taliban on its own. The US is convinced that the Taliban will win if the US and Pakistan do not fight it together and the US is acting as if it does not want the Taliban to win and that victory can be had by paying the Pakistani army.

...

All I am saying is that the US should stop funding and arming the Pakistan army which is not only India's most dangerous adversary, it is the most staunch supporter of the Taliban

......

You have put enough on the table to show where the disconnect is in your thought. Well it is nice to see your opinion on this one, bang on with the US policy, but are too quick to make descisions for them. Please excuse if USA does not agree with you that their policy is a failure. They might know that this policy is not a big success, but with limited options, this is the one that they would pursue. And if the policy is not working, they would put more money at it, and the org that has influence with Taliban is PA and US would put the money where its mouth is and is paying the PA to wean them off the Taliban. Weather U and I like it or not, that is going to continue. I do not like the impact India is having due to this, but it is nothing but delusion to expect this should not happen and assume that you or I or even GOI has other options at this point.

USA would gladly pay that money and more to India, if India is able to achieve the same with Taliban. If India has the strength and deliver the Taliban. What other options are there? You are too mired up and too close to the India-Pak scenario to see beyond it. For you it begins and ends with India-Pak. Might be ok, but USA comes with complete set of rules and as the Sole Super power, what it wants, it gets. If you say "Balls, I do not care what USA wants", you are missing the point and the Goriila in the room.

Saying USA does not know what to do, is only partially correct. Limited Options that are available here and USA is doing the best it could, even when it knows that PA is double dealing them behind the scenes. It will also continue to do so as long as PA overlty says it will fight the Taliban. What did India, Russia and Iran do to deal with the Taliban before, did they fight directly or through proxies? USA hired the best contractor available to do the job, or rather paying a price to convert him to be a contractor, so if you are whinig that they hired a contractor whom you do not like, then it is tough luck. It is better that way for the USA, rather than USA fight Taliban + PA. That is too big a monstor for even USA to take on unless absolutely required. I think the disconnect is that you think it is time that USA take on PA also and USA does not think it needs to take on both of them now. It wants to use PA or rathar wants PA to be not helping the Taliban.

Fighting Taliban is where the Indian and USA's interets converge on this one. And India does not like USA's help to PA, but can in no way provide an alternative. India is doing the best it can do to help democracy in Afghanistan, so that Taliban influence can be decreased. But that is what it can do. I would really like to hear your options or alternatives for the USA and India on this one? Hopefully in the pursuit, you will find the answers to your questions.

Please do not try to find a conspiracy theory around every corner or you will lose sleep over nothing. Only possitve being you will have plenty to post.

[Kashi]

^^ Once again in your zeal to defend the US of A, you completely (or perhaps deliberately) miss the points raised by Hakimullah ji..

Mee thinketh some people simply protesteth too much.

[CRamS]

venkat_r,

Don't know if its politically possible now, but soon after 9/11, USA as the superpower and the sympathy it garnered around the world, could have easily assemble a coalition and knocked the stuffing out of both TSP and their Talibunnies.

You are falling into the usual US mouthpiece trap, and that is, you take a premise that US puts out or its statements at face value. Jeee TSP is a nuke power, impossible to take both Talibunnies and TSPA etc. I say this is rubbish. The decision to not take on TSPA is geo-political, it is strategic, and you guessed it, the India factor which we have beaten to death.

I keep reminding folks this. Had someone suggested that USA take Osama out from right under the arse of Kiyani, the same spiel would have been put out, namely, impossible because TSPA has nukes. But we saw US did exactly that.

A combination of massive air power at US command, along with NATO, Afghan, & Indian ground troops will blow TSPA to smithreens I would say in at most a week if not earlier. Actually, it may not have to come to actual action. Kiyani & Co will sign on the dotted line like they did in 1971 if he realized that US was dead serious.

[venkat_r]

Sir, the US is much more powerful than India and can do a lot of things. But why are you begging me to understand the US's position? Because it is more powerful? You are once again imploring me to understand the US position when I have clearly stated that I have no intention of doing that. Are you unable to understand that yourself? Why do you repeatedly demand understanding and respect for the USA from me? You seem to feel personally insulted that I don't slobber over the US as you clearly do. To me that is a clear indicator of where you are coming from. And shows exactly which buttons I can push to get you worked up. You are entitled to your opinion. You don't need my permission. And I will hold my opinion.

Please do not call me sir.
I am neither begging you to respect the USA, or myself or anyone. Yes you do have great deal of influence on the forum members and it your up to you who you want to respect and what you want to post to keep everyone entertained. But on this one you missed it completely. I think your statement above just give you up completely. What do you mean by you do not want to understand USA. Having USA in the equation changes everything. Do not have to believe me, similar to you do not have to believe me when I say earth is not flat.

If you do not want to appreciate(not respect) the fact that USA is powerful and gets its pound of flesh first, it is up to you. Just deluded, but none the less a valid opinion.

[johneeG]

venkat_r,
your posts end up proving the oft repeated theme of Shiv that some Indians (or Indian-origins) have the greatest takleef when US is shown in dim light. They start to offer variety of defences to justify the actions of US. In a way, they are the most passionate apologists of US. When US is criticized, they react as if they have been personally offended.

I am not sure whether a US born american is going to defend US' actions so much. In fact, given the unpopularity and unsuccessful nature of wars fought by US(apart from emptying the coffers), I think most of them would gladly accept what Shiv is saying. Maybe its like a new convert being more zealous than the old one!

----
The question is whether US actions are based only and only on Occam's razor? If so, in which time-length and scope is this occam's razor being applied? Is it applied geo-politically, or domestic politics or economics or mix of all of them? Is it applied in 50yr time-period, 100yr time-period, 1000, 5000, 50000?

I think, independent of pakis, suppression of India is desirable for US and indeed something that US has consistently followed.

a) Level 1: India was the ally of Soviets and hence needed to be suppressed using pakis who could be bought with some peanuts.

b) Level 2: If you want to be a global hegemon, then there are certain countries in each region, that must be controlled if not suppressed. For eg: India & China in South-Asia; Saudi in West Asia; Japan in south-east Asia; Russia & Germany in Europe; Egypt in Africa .

These countries need to be suppressed lest they rise and become regional powers. If these regional powers rise, it will directly reduce the power of global hegemon.

c) Level 3: US is a established by christian whites. That is their civilization. So, more often than not, they will side with christian white against the non-christian non-white. Even among the whites and christians, they will favour the Anglo-Saxons.

Generally, the priority is:
christian white > non-christian white> christian non-white> non-christian non-white;

Next:
christian > Jew > Islam > Pagans(including Hindus).

So, they will always favour people who are higher on their civilization priority than the lower ones.

d) Level 4: Different centers were important during various phases of human history. But through out the human history, 2 centers have consistently played an important role. They are: India and China. Now, for most of the history, China's culture and religion were imported from India. That means, India has played the most decisive role in human history consistently. Either India dominated the world or the powers that controlled India dominated the world. Any global power or aspiring power worth its salt cannot and would not ignore this.

---
My understanding of the progressions in Indian's thinking:
1) We can work with anyone in the world. All the problems are due to misunderstanding only.

2) We can work with anyone but the bloody pakis.

3) We can work with even pakis but not the commie chinese.

4) We can even cooperate with the chinese but not US.

5) They are all part of the same system. And they all want to screw India.

Pak is the dagger, chinese are cloak, US is the hand holding the dagger, and the UK(along with other euros) are the master-minds. India, as usual, are the victims. This extends to all fields....not just geo-politics.

[shiv]

If you do not want to appreciate(not respect) the fact that USA is powerful and gets its pound of flesh first, it is up to you. Just deluded, but none the less a valid opinion.

Correct. It is up to me. Not so difficult to understand that is it? But it sure took you a long long time to comprehend. If it makes you think I am deluded it is your problem not mine. I am allowed to be deluded, and you are allowed to be upset. But there is no need to be upset if I am deluded and refuse to "understand" and "appreciate" the USA that you so want me to understand or appreciate (not respect)

[RamaY]

INC might have grand plan to all their phappi jhappi for thermselves.

Bhutto's daughters are too young for Yuvraj to marry. But who knows love and war have no rules and love doesn't know caste, creed and age.

[venkat_r]

venkat_r,

Don't know if its politically possible now, but soon after 9/11, USA as the superpower and the sympathy it garnered around the world, could have easily assemble a coalition and knocked the stuffing out of both TSP and their Talibunnies.

You are falling into the usual US mouthpiece trap, and that is, you take a premise that US puts out or its statements at face value. Jeee TSP is a nuke power, impossible to take both Talibunnies and TSPA etc. I say this is rubbish. The decision to not take on TSPA is geo-political, it is strategic, and you guessed it, the India factor which we have beaten to death.

I keep reminding folks this. Had someone suggested that USA take Osama out from right under the arse of Kiyani, the same spiel would have been put out, namely, impossible because TSPA has nukes. But we saw US did exactly that.

Possible, Maybe there was a chance before, who knows. USA took a descision and might even wanted to keep 'their son of a bitch' And wanted to take on a less riskier approach, who knows why they took that descision, and USA is perfectly capable of spinning things if they want to go after PA now, option less likely due to the economy.

Seems like your beef is that they did not take an option most beneficial to you, GOI even tried, the offering of bases. In the geo political arena, swim with the big dog where it makes sense and chart your own in others. Lesson for GOI is, Strength respects strength - show the strength where you can, and do not fold.

On the other topic of USA acting behind PA, Obama created quite a stir when he said he is going to follow that policy, and if you have followed Osama event, one piece US was worried was for seal team not to get caught with Osama inside Pak, just shows what reality is.

[johneeG]

INC might have grand plan to all their phappi jhappi for thermselves.

Bhutto's daughters are too young for Yuvraj to marry. But who knows love and war have no rules and love doesn't know caste, creed and age.

Mo and Aisha...

[venkat_r]

If you do not want to appreciate(not respect) the fact that USA is powerful and gets its pound of flesh first, it is up to you. Just deluded, but none the less a valid opinion.

Correct. It is up to me. Not so difficult to understand that is it? But it sure took you a long long time to comprehend. If it makes you think I am deluded it is your problem not mine. I am allowed to be deluded, and you are allowed to be upset. But there is no need to be upset if I am deluded and refuse to "understand" and "appreciate" the USA that you so want me to understand or appreciate (not respect)

My bad. Seems like this thorn is causing you issue - lets leave it at that. People can draw their own conclusions.

[CRamS]

Seems like your beef is that they did not take an option most beneficial to you, GOI even tried, the offering of bases. In the geo political arena, swim with the big dog where it makes sense and chart your own in others. Lesson for GOI is, Strength respects strength - show the strength where you can, and do not fold.

Indeed, but I would have no beef if the actions US chose were at least correct, even if not directly beneficial to India. Lahori logic aside, how do you explain the fact that far from weakening or at least removing the capacity of TSPA to play spoiler in Afghanistan (and of course India), US has actually strengthened that. I mean the entire rationale for going to AfPak post 9/11 has been upended.

[shiv]

USA would gladly pay that money and more to India, if India is able to achieve the same with Taliban. If India has the strength and deliver the Taliban.
<snip>
Saying USA does not know what to do, is only partially correct. Limited Options that are available here and USA is doing the best it could, even when it knows that PA is double dealing them behind the scenes.

The USA is losing Sorry if you don't like it but I understand your need to massage that message an make it sound better. US paying India money is in my view a stupid statement that makes you sound like a person who thinks Indians are in it for the money. Maybe a person who looks at the US as a source of money feels this way. Not all Indians see the US as a source of money for them.

Fighting Taliban is where the Indian and USA's interets converge on this one.

In my opinion this is utter tripe. The US helped create the Taliban. The US shall fight the Taliban. The Taliban are staunch Muslims and I am not an Islamophobe. I do not want India to fight the Taliban. But if the US's proxytute the Pakistan army takes the money that the US readily pays them to fight the Taliban that you want India to fight, I would not complain. Not my problem

I find it pathetic and laughable that you, a supporter of US policy want India to fight the US's battle with the Taliban when the US has been unable to defeat the Taliban on its own or even get the Paki army to fight the Taliban. Now that is really funny isn't it? Super power and all? Can pay money to India and all, you said.

Come on brother your sense of humor is as good as your loyalty to the US of A but reality is different. Only reality appears like delusion to you. Why doesn't the US send in the marines? Or do a 'Rolling Thunder". Remember the Alamo? Remember the "Highway of death"? Aww the smoke gets in my eyes when I think of that. Indian help is not required is it?

[shiv]

The idea that India should help the US fight the Taliban is one of the most stupid things I have heard on this forum in many months.

The US, which is apparently ready to pay India money to "deliver the Taliban" , is already paying money to the Pakistan army and the Pakistan army is taking that money and arms aid from the US and is not delivering the Taliban, And here I see, on BRF, an Indian telling me that India should deliver the Taliban to the US and the US will pay India money.

So Pakistan gets money and arms aid from the US - an act that I should "understand and appreciate" because the US is so so powerful. But that Pakistan is not delivering the Taliban. So India should then fight and deliver the Taliban? wtf? What sort of logic is this?

Am I delusional in saying that this is one of the most ridiculous ideas I have heard? Someone explain that to me please.

[Raja Bose]

US should pay money to the good Taliban to fight the bad Taliban. And since there are extremists on both sides, they should also pay the bad Taliban to fight the good Taliban. Not paying the Taliban will only strengthen the hands of extremists.

[chetak]

India fighting the taliban if attacked directly by them is OK. We would have no option in that case. That time will come soon when the action in AFPAK winds down and they turn their evil attentions to yindoo India.

Fighting the US's war is stupid beyond belief. They have coveted Indian soldiers since before Iraq.

That is exactly why the US minions have been regularly visiting India to try and convince India to pitch in. We have a well trained, disciplined and loyal Armed Forces.
The Soldiers are not used to questioning the politicos (maybe not anymore!! ). The chiefs are increasingly becoming nervous at the reckless politicos led by the eyetalian cabal.
Attitudes are hardening toward the pakis as IG gave away the kitchen sink in a bid to gain international goodwill and recklessly demonstrate Indian magnanimity.

The Chiefs would have certainly sounded off about AFPAK too.

The US simply wants to substitute Indian body bags for gora body bags, while they cheer safely from the sidelines and dish out a nobel "piece" prize either to MMS or eyetalian ranee.

[venkat_r]

The USA is losing Sorry if you don't like it but I understand your need to massage that message an make it sound better. US paying India money is in my view a stupid statement that makes you sound like a person who thinks Indians are in it for the money. Maybe a person who looks at the US as a source of money feels this way. Not all Indians see the US as a source of money for them.

Aha! I know! Seems like it bothers you that u are wrong. Well, it should bother you that even in the loss US is causing you khujli. Seems like those who matter in GOI reconciled with it. USA matters and no matter what theories you put forward, u got caught with your Khujli finger in your mouth this time. Like you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, please 'Beg and whine' to USA as USA does not matter.

I find it pathetic and laughable that you, a supporter of US policy want India to fight the US's battle with the Taliban when the US has been unable to defeat the Taliban on its own or even get the Paki army to fight the Taliban. Now that is really funny isn't it? Super power and all? Can pay money to India and all, you said.

Come on brother your sense of humor is as good as your loyalty to the US of A but reality is different. Only reality appears like delusion to you. Why doesn't the US send in the marines? Or do a 'Rolling Thunder". Remember the Alamo? Remember the "Highway of death"? Aww the smoke gets in my eyes when I think of that. Indian help is not required is it?

Wow! Seems like this delusion knows no bounds! every war requires a ton of alliances and resources. It is great that people here think that USA is too powerful to take on PA and not good enough to take on Talibunnies. killer arguments i say!

Why do you think GOI offered bases?
Why do you think GOI did not try your pet theory -bomb the US supply ships?
Why do you think GOI did not ask US to leave the region?
Or Why do you think none from GOI give you a goat for your idea?

I know these are irrelevant questions and waste of time for you. And try to attack my credentials when you have to answer tough questions.

Clearly your posts show that you want a street fight on this topic, not fair I say, as you have home advantage.

[venkat_r]

Oh, India fighting talibs is stupid now is it? What do you think India was doing supporting the NA? Trading goats? Wow!

[Baikul]

....My bad. Seems like this thorn is causing you issue - lets leave it at that. People can draw their own conclusions

..Aha! I know! Seems like it bothers you that u are wrong. Well, it should bother you that even in the loss US is causing you khujli. Seems like those who matter in GOI reconciled with it. USA matters and no matter what theories you put forward, u got caught with your Khujli finger in your mouth this time.

........ Please excuse if USA does not agree with you that their policy is a failure.

Focusing on the argument itself instead of making passive aggressive statements I have quoted would make your points easier to absorb. Why get into personalities?

[Raja Bose]

Oh, India fighting talibs is stupid now is is? What do you think India was doing supporting the NA? Trading goats? Wow!

There is a difference between providing moral and material support while whispering 'narayan narayan' as opposed to sending boots on the ground and warplanes in the air. One is covert, the other is overt. What some folks here are against is overtly fighting the Taliban especially when it does not directly serve our interests and results in casualties along with associated after effects. I don't think it is a case of solving the broader problem which will automatically result in solving our narrower problem, as the US wants to portray it as. The US has been very skilled in projecting its problems as the world's problems (PR, news channels and other media play a big role in this) and that is a skill GoI has yet to pick up. I wish for the day when a threat against India is effectively projected as a threat against world peace.

Massa's attitude can be exemplified by this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGMG8pn6Cro#t=6m57s

[ranjbe]

The US has been very skilled in projecting its problems as the world's problems (PR, news channels and other media play a big role in this) and that is a skill GoI has yet to pick up. I wish for the day when a threat against India is effectively projected as a threat against world peace.

+1

[Charlie]

Alhamdullilah...


Pakistan: Man acquitted of blasphemy charge, promptly shot dead

A Pakistani man who was acquitted of a blasphemy charge has been shot dead by two men in Punjab province, police officials said on Saturday.
Sajjad Hussain, a resident of Khan Muslim village in Gujranwala district, 80 km from Lahore, was gunned down on Friday. He had been arrested in February 2011 after Sath Sanaullah, a resident of his neighbourhood, accused him of committing blasphemy against Prophet Mohammed during a private conversation.

Hussain was booked under section 295-C of the Pakistan Penal Code, the harsh blasphemy law.

A district and sessions court acquitted him last month for lack of evidence.

On Friday, Hussain was at his shop when two armed men came and fired at him. He was killed instantly. The two gunmen later surrendered to police.

They were identified as Sheikh Zeeshan and Awais Ahmed, both residents Hussain's neighbourhood.

The men told police that they had killed a "blasphemer" and had no regrets over their action....

[venkat_r]

I have never said that India should send boots to Afg. Please reread the post I made. I ment US would be looking for any options to declare victory and as US giving money to PA is causing concern, US might give money to who ever delivers Taliban (and may be for logistical support), USA is also dealing with Russia for some of its logistics. It is in this context that i said that US might give money to India also if they can deliver Taliban. Yes, it is easy to twist the words and take the argument into a tangent.

I agree US has a PR machine that can spin up anything in a short period of time. I would love India also develop that capability and begin projecting force where it can.

Instead of going in psy ops with convoluted logics, it would be better to understand what is. This forum is supposed to be vibrant, but this branding anyone who tries to explain anything is a cheap tactic of shutting down the diversity as it does not fit your world view and specific conspiracy theory. Shiv is a very senior member and has given many a good insights and aha moments, and also has gathered quite a Bhajan group around here. He has a lot of influence on the forum, esp on the Pak thread. His style of delivery has also added to it in the past and now. But, it is sad to see him going down to this level and hiding behind his free speech.

If one does not appreciate that USA is big enough to consider in the India-Pak context and hides behind the free speach, there is clearly nothing more to discuss. Do not have unlimited time to come and keep clarifying and discussing here in the forum.

I do not know who all he has branded as US mouth pieces before or what they said, but for people to be US mouth pieces, they do not have to fashion themselves to come to BR Forum and get credited, they can do it else where. People are here as they are interested and concerned about India and they might have I am guessing (happened to offer their insights on how things work in USA). I think there is a too much of frog in the well going on here and thinking that they(or India) are the centre of the world. and everything that is happening is due to a conspiracy theory to keep India down. Not everything is. Failure to discriminate is sad and rowdyness of the senior member is just pathetic.

[Raja Bose]

I don't subscribe to any CTs on how US policy in SE Asia/Afpak is India-centric and is aimed at keeping India down. US policy in AfPak or for that matter anywhere in the world is US-centric and if that results in harming India, they don't care one way or the other unless it gives them leverage for your own personal gains. Hence, India needs to look at the problem and US's role or involvement through the same prism, that of its own self-interest. So when you say US is big in the AfPak context, you have to define, what do you mean by big? Big as in someone who has a broader view of the problem, someone who has a better understanding of the issues at hand, someone who has a broader interest in the solution than just their own interests? If that is so, then I would disagree. US just like any other large country is only concerned about its own mush - the sooner GoI makes its actions follow that premise, the better for India.

[CRamS]

Oh, India fighting talibs is stupid now is it? What do you think India was doing supporting the NA? Trading goats? Wow!

This is a good point. But here is the problem. I think India would genuinely want to get rid of the Taliban but simply cannot take on TSPA and Taliban combine. Hence it did the next best thing, as you point out, helped the NA. US actions on the other hand are fraudulent to the hilt. They talk a good about Talibunny barbarity, but they don't want to see an end to Taliban per se, because in part that would destabilize their TSP munna TSP. In other words, US is playing a dangerous game, where it is trying to "moderate" the Talibunny and TSPA to be focused on India and other regional players and less against the whites. Thats the dance we are witnessing now. As I said earlier, US has the wherewithal to annihilate both TSPA and Talibunnies in a heartbeat, but they choose not to.

Thus, I would any day rate India's actions as being more consistent with what is good for the Afghan people, than US's which is berefet of any principle or morals and only its geopolitical interests but taking a fuc$%^ing good game of human rights and all the crap that makes me puke every time I hear a white elite self righteously pontificate. Therein lies the rub,, i.e., India knows very well US motives are not pure. And hence I would be very very circumspect in signing on to US's so called "fight" with the Taliban. All they want is to replace white body bags with those of SDREs, and then play diplomatic games sitting 1000s of miles away.

[RamaY]

Pakistan: Man acquitted of blasphemy charge, promptly shot dead

Sajjad Hussain, a resident of Khan Muslim village in Gujranwala district, had been arrested in February 2011 after Sath Sanaullah, a resident of his neighbourhood, accused him of committing blasphemy against Prophet Mohammed during a private conversation.
...
They were identified as Sheikh Zeeshan and Awais Ahmed, both residents Hussain's neighbourhood.

The men told police that they had killed a "blasphemer" and had no regrets over their action....

Why didn't Sath Sanaullah kill the blasphemer himself? Can this be some kind of blasphemy?

I don't understand why people are debating about US and Indian actions in the pure land.

In fact pure land must be given more aid so it can buy more guns, build more madrasahs, have more computers to watch blasphemy videos and more mobile phones so more beheadings can be recorded and MMSed.

That is why I buy paki stuff in massa. These pakis in massa know they are living a Munafiq life, and donate 10% of their earnings to madrasah back home to wash their sins.

So pakis should get more US aid to buy helicopter gunships and make more nukes. pakis should get more Indian aid so pakis can feel bad about their fate and blame it in lack of Islam.

[JwalaMukhi]

[ They talk a good about Talibunny barbarity, but they don't want to see an end to Taliban per se, because in part that would destabilize their TSP munna TSP. In other words, US is playing a dangerous game, where it is trying to "moderate" the Talibunny and TSPA to be focused on India and other regional players and less against the whites. Thats the dance we are witnessing now. As I said earlier, US has the wherewithal to annihilate both TSPA and Talibunnies in a heartbeat, but they choose not to.

Well said. Unkil is deeply in bed with islamism. It is for Unkil to first resolve themselves how they want to address their addiction. Unkil truly believes that they can regulate the islamism tap and are reduced to supporting the islamism to further their cause. The tools of islamism are terrorism, definition of which is killing and miaming of innocent people. The fact that self-deluded "hyper power" has to resort to rely on islamism for furthering its interests speaks volume about its pathetic condition.
Knowing that, it is a fool's errand to band with unkil who is deeply in bed with islamism to fight jihadis. Only someone who will be enticed by nice talk will fall for that fool's errand.

[RamaY]

This is a good point. But here is the problem. I think India would genuinely want to get rid of the Taliban but simply cannot take on TSPA and Taliban combine.

Disagree here.

India has the wherewithal to take on the combined might of TSPA and Taliban. The problem is it doesn't think that is the right thing, because of its secular (anti-hindu) polity. It is also worried that such a overt war would bring out the real loyalties of its own Muslim population, which may not be what everyone thought it to be.

Another problem is India is so-much ahimsa cool aid by Mahatma and his followers that the Indian population forgot the basic fact of life in that life itself comes with its share of violence. And there is a universal difference between dharmic violence is different from the asuric violence.

The third problem is that such a overt war means the current generation of India has to do some sacrifices for the protection and well being of its future generations. But the tamas is so deep that the current generation is too selfish to make any sacrifice for the person next to him/her or the future generations.

[nakul]

Fikar not RamY jee. Evil has a way that it ends up destroying itself. The Pakis have always been doing us a favor. In 1947, they took all the rabid jehadis to their land. In 1971, their peace loving ways have ensured that they were relieved of the responsibility to govern East Pakistan. The 99 & 9/11 attacks have left it virtually on life support. Its benefactors are leaving it one by one. Those who want to go the way of the SU are welcome to try their hand in keeping Pakistan afloat. US is getting overstretched with their "international commitments." All we need to do is to continue having chai biskut with Unkil & Paki jernails and let them fight / gubo each other. I have stocked some popcorn, suggest you do the same.

[partha]

Apparently Pervez Hoodbhoy will no longer be teaching at LUMS. It seems greener forces are behind university not giving an extension to him.

[CRamS]

I don't know about AfPak, but it seems to me that in the attack on US embassy in Libya, killing 4 US diplomats, Faux nooge senses an opening for their man and boy are they hitting Obama hard with all the hair splitting nit picking. So more than AfPak, Libya will dominate the next debate. Funny part is that on so called Al Queda, there is no difference between dems and reps, but hook or crook some difference is manufactured and beaten to death. While on AfPak, Romney can summon a lot of substance and challenge Obama on his love affair with TSP that took out not just 4 US lives, but 1000s. But sadly, the superficial spectacle and fraud will continue.

[RajeshA]

India need not fight US's war! We have to know what our interest is. Our interest is to bring Pakistani Army to its knees and to bring the ethnic groups in Pakistan closer to India and Indian interests. That is what we ought to concentrate on!

With one hand we shake hands and with the other we stick up the bamboo up the other's "sphere's of influence and pain".

1) We need to give loads of support, military and otherwise, to the Afghan National Army, to the Tajiks, to the Uzbeks, to the Hazaras. Make the war unwinnable for the Taliban, regardless of how much support it gets from Pakistan. But we don't criticize the Taliban publicly.

2) We buy off some Pushtun warlords, as build relations with some Taliban regional commanders, also giving them aid and providing them some logistic support.

3) We ensure that the Taliban splits and the "bad" Taliban start hitting TSPA and Pakistan's Sarkari Jihadis and taking down their crore commanders all the riff-raff who speak too much against India and spread terrorism in India. India's hand is not visible because it is all green on green hitting.

4) If any Pakjabi wants to survive the green on green, he has to be friendly towards Delhi!

5) We fund separatism in Pakistan and make the TSPA useless in stopping it, due to fear factor from the greens to the North!

[johneeG]

venkat_r,
sorry buddy, if you were hurt by the post, never intended to...

[Anujan]

Apparently Pervez Hoodbhoy will no longer be teaching at LUMS. It seems greener forces are behind university not giving an extension to him.

He was instrumental in Pakistan losing $2 Trillion by refusing to believe in water-powered car and refusing to support its patenting and production.

[Philip]

Pakis lie about Osama yet again!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... pound.html

Pakistan's Osama bin Laden report: al-Qaeda leader feared to set foot outside compound
Osama bin Laden retreated behind closed doors, refusing to set foot even in the courtyard of his hideaway in the final weeks before he died because of a security lapse, found the official Pakistani report on the al-Qaeda leader.

By Rob Crilly, Islamabad
21 Oct 2012

An independent commission has spent the past year and a half questioning military officers, bin Laden's wives and residents of Abbottabad.

The Daily Telegraph has learnt from a senior government official that no one else in the town knew the world's most wanted man had taken up residence there. It clears Pakistan's government and military establishment of involvement, a verdict that will prompt accusations of a cover-up and infuriate Western diplomats.

The investigation describes how the daughter of one of bin Laden's two couriers, who lived with their families in separate buildings inside the high-walled compound, saw the al-Qaeda leader as she climbed the stairs in his private area for a Koran lesson with one of his wives.

According to the Pakistani source, she was oblivious to his identity until she saw his picture on television some days later.

This prompted a hurried security conference inside the compound, which ended with bin Laden giving up his exercise routine in a covered part of the courtyard.

He was killed by a team of US Navy Seals in May last year at the age of 54.

His presence in the town of Abbottabad, barely 30 miles from the Pakistani capital Islamabad, was deeply embarrassing for the country's leaders.

In recent months it even emerged that bin Laden had fathered four children while on the run.

Critics in the US immediately accused Pakistani officials of knowing more about bin Laden's presence than they were letting on.

A senior government source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said they would find few answers in the commission's report.

“At the end of the day it really doesn't tell us much more than we already knew,” he said.

“It's a disappointment for those who thought this episode might represent a turning point for Pakistan's relationship with extremist groups.”

He added that the investigation had spent more time considering infringements of Pakistan's sovereignty by the US Seals than probing how such a well-known fugitive evaded detection.

Christine Fair, a Pakistan watcher at Georgetown University, said that although leaders of the Inter-Services Intelligence agency may not have known about bin Laden's presence, someone among the country's retired generals, Military Intelligence or local police must have known something.

“If Pakistan had taken this breach of sovereignty seriously – by which I mean the head of al-Qaeda sitting in a cantonment so close to the capital - we should have seen a very vigorous investigation,” she said.

“This was a joke.”

The five-member judicial commission submitted its report to the government last week.

It is understood the report also concludes that stealth technology used by the US helicopters enabled them to enter Pakistani airspace without being detected.

[shiv]

Wow! Seems like this delusion knows no bounds! every war requires a ton of alliances and resources. It is great that people here think that USA is too powerful to take on PA and not good enough to take on Talibunnies. killer arguments i say!

Why do you think GOI offered bases?
Why do you think GOI did not try your pet theory -bomb the US supply ships?
Why do you think GOI did not ask US to leave the region?
Or Why do you think none from GOI give you a goat for your idea?

I know these are irrelevant questions and waste of time for you. And try to attack my credentials when you have to answer tough questions.

Clearly your posts show that you want a street fight on this topic, not fair I say, as you have home advantage.

The US for all its strength is unable to take on the Taliban and is unable to make the Pakistan army do its work. I find that some Americans are really frustrated by this fact, but I could have told them why if they did not think I was delusional.

I cannot speak for the GoI but I will try and answer the questions that you have asked and then declared your own questions as irrelevant. You seem to know your own strengths although you are blissfully unaware of the US's weaknesses and Pakistani strengths.

GoI offered bases imagining that the US government would use its brains which the US chose not to use.

GoI will get defeated by the US if it tries to bomb US ships. Yes India will get defeated by the same US that cannot defeat the Taliban without Indian help as per your opinion.

The GoI has asked the US not to arm Pakistan for decades. The GoI spent years until 1990 supporting the idea that the US should get out of Afghanistan. India supported the Northern Alliance at a time when the US and the Taliban were buddies and your finest president Reagan was toasting the Taliban in the White House at a time when his Alzheimer's had not become apparent for all to see. The US was out of Afghanistan from 1990 to 2001. India offered the US bases in 2001 knowing that Pakistan would grab and squeeze the US by the balls. The US willingly chose to get screwed by Pakistan.

Why do I think none from the GoI give a goat for my idea? Now this is a stupid question because I have always stated my own opinions and I am not stating GoI policy.

We have been through all this before but it is a pleasure to repeat myself when someone like you comes along and demands that India follow the US. It helps me rehash and recall the reasons why I hold the opinions that I do now.

The problem is Pakistan, not the Taliban. India can help the US if the US stops helping Pakistan which is a nuclear armed Taliban. The US is a de facto ally of the Taliban

[ArmenT]

Bakis are now accusing the Afghanis of shielding Mullah Radio and hindering the war on terror.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19996395

More than a week since Pakistani schoolgirl Malala Yousafzai was shot by suspected Taliban gunmen on her way to school, the pressure to bring those behind the attempted murder to justice is not just on Pakistan but also on neighbouring Afghanistan.

The Pakistani government says Mullah Fazlullah - leader of the Taliban group which has claimed responsibility for the shooting - is hiding in the mountainous Afghan border regions - and has called for him to be handed over.

Pakistan has been shelling Afghan border villages for months, in response to what it says are cross-border raids by Fazlullah's men, including an attack in which 17 Pakistani police were beheaded.

Usually, it is the other way round - with Kabul accusing Pakistan of giving sanctuary to Taliban who carry out assaults inside Afghanistan.

BONUS: The article actually refers to Mullah Fazlullah as Mullah Radio later down. Looks like someone in the BBC might be reading a certain infamous forum which is sometimes known to be ahead of the curve.

[Karan M]

Does the US have the firepower to defeat the Taliban, if applied en masse? Yes
Can the US apply this firepower as it wishes? No
What is the result? US is losing troops in Afghanistan and there is no end result, and they are running to the same country (Pakistan) that is sponsoring terror against their troops.

So what's the result? One way or the other, the US is not winning. Even if its status quo, its not winning.

I think people conflate all the PR and youtube videos of the US's overwhelming investment in gee whiz conventional weaponry, and take that to mean the US is invulnerable. What is happening in Afghanistan is the same as what happened to them in Vietnam. North Vietnam - only subject to air raids but not ground assault or outright invasion- served as the base for the Vietcong to take over South Vietnam. No matter how many troops they poured in, defoliants and bombs they used, they ultimately ran out of the quick victory option & left. Defeat.
Today, the Pakistanis are only subject to drone strikes (nowhere as heavy as the air raids on North Vietnam) and are acting as the training, replenishment and recovery zone for the Taliban. The US won't touch the Pakistani Army which is doing all this.
Its hard to see how this time around, the Afghan story will not end the same way as it did in Vietnam.

The only way the US can spin this out is by declaring mission complete, running out in 2014, and bribing the Pakistani Army to not attack them via the Taliban on the mainland. The North Vietnamese were not mercenary sell outs like the Pakis so thats different, and nor were they vengeful terrorists out to wreak terror on the US mainland either. So that is what is different this time around. But they are not headed towards victory, especially if the 2014 deadline is kept

Should we help the US fight the Taliban, today? Whats in it for us? Ethical issues apart, I sincerely doubt the GOI, the economy or the society at large is prepared to properly support the Armed Forces in this endeavour, if they choose to take it up. Next, it would really suck to have the US watch from the sidelines, cheer us on, but do little to materially or diplomatically support us either. If they can't pull their own troops out of the firing line & support them, how will they support ours? Its not practical.

Finally, if the US leaves in 2014, its a given that Pakistan is going to repurpose those huge numbers of Talibani retards, once they complete their "Afghan mission" and try to use them against India. In the 1990s, while the US watched & even abetted these religious idiots via folks like Robin Raphael, it was India which stopped Islamic extremism by preventing Kashmir from falling. Looks like it is back to India all over again, to face & clean the mess created by the machinations of others, with the Indian Army holding the line all across the LOC & IB.

[Prem]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-72402 ... extradited
Pak wants NSA Mullah Fazlullah extradited

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan wants Afghanistan to hand over Non State Actor Mullah Fazlullah, believing he was hiding in Afghanistan and involved in planning the attack on Malala Yousafzai, the 14-year old activist for women's right to education, sources told Geo News on Sunday.The diplomatic sources revealed that the demand was made by Pakistan Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar during her meeting with US special envoy to Pakistan and Afghanistan, Mark Grossman.Grossman was told that Mullah Fazlullah was involved in the attack on Malala Yousafzai and that the US should employ its influence towards the extradition of Fazlullah.Mullah Fazlullah along with his men is hiding in Kunar province of Afghanistan, the Pak-Afghan especial envoy was told.Meanwhile, Pakistan had, on many occasions in the past, informed the ISAF and Afghan authorities about Mullah Fazlullah's activities.According to sources, Mullah Fazlullah has executed as many as 15 cross border attacks in Pakistan over the past one year. These attacks targeted Pakistani security check posts and also its villages.It has also been learnt that those who came and attacked Malala Yousafzai had escaped back to Afghanistan.

[Prem]

Brain-eating Naegleria having nightmare in Islamic Pakistan
Yeh Kanha Phas gya hoon, Pakistan mei aa kei

Talking to Daily Times on Sunday, KWSB Managing Director Misbahuddin Farid said that today he took more than 100 samples of water out of which 98% were satisfactory as KWSB was properly chlorinating water and ensuring that the water supply did not contain any contamination or bacteria.He further said, “All reported deaths due to Naegleria are of men as not a single woman was affected by this virus, which depicted that virus is not present in home water. “It must be in swimming pool or other water places,” KWSB is working with health department and other elected MPs and thanks to Almighty Allah for situation under control.”Farid said that he invited NGOs and other relevant department to join hand with KWSB to eliminate it further.Consultant Infectious Diseases Dr Syed Faisal Mahmood informed how Naegleria works? He said that Naegleria causes a very unusual form of brain infection, which could be Primary Amoebic Meningoencephalitis (PAM) that leads to the destruction of brain tissues and brain swelling. He said, “Initial signs of PAM are headache, fever, anorexia, vomiting and later progress to a stiff neck, altered mental status, seizures and coma.”According to Dr Mahmood, PAM is a serious disease for which no effective treatment exists anywhere in the world. He further informed that amoeba-killing medicines were always given to patients, these usually did not work and chances of death occurs almost 99 per cent of the time. Few Naegleria cases have yet been reported worldwide but in Karachi, it was increased very fastConsultant Clinical Microbiologist Dr Afia Zafar said that Naegleria was commonly found in warm freshwaters such as lakes, ponds and rivers. “It is a heat-loving microbe, which multiplies well at temperature from 28 to 40 degrees centigrade and tolerates up to 45 degrees centigrade.” It was less likely to be found in the water as temperature turns down. Naegleria was not found in salt water, such as seawater.“In Karachi, unfortunately, due to compromised chlorination of domestic water supply, the disease is not only limited to children, but many healthy males between the ages of 16 and 42 years are contracting it,” she said.She advised the public to clean overhead and underground water tanks twice a year and fill it with chlorinated water (0.5 ppm of residual chlorine is required at domestic level that can be increased up to 1ppm if water looks turbid); only swim in well maintained and properly chlorinated swimming pools; not to allow children to play with hoses or sprinklers as they may accidentally squirt water up their noses; and not to jump or duck dive into warm fresh water without closing the nose or using the nose clip.

[Karan M]

Oh, India fighting talibs is stupid now is it? What do you think India was doing supporting the NA? Trading goats? Wow!

The issue is not India fighting talibs, but of where it chooses to fight them. If we fight them in Afghanistan, overtly, we are playing the game the US, has discovered to be casualty high & with no tangible gains. What do we gain? The love of the Afghan people? Doubtful at best. What we will have is a high tempo, quasi war situation, one which the GOI is clearly not prepared to handle - take a look at how the Batla house encounter was spun, by resident UPA politicians. With IA involved in expeditionary warfare, IA will have to face pyswar (Hindu kaffirs attacking innocent Islamic society etc) which is something again, the GOI is not good at. Take a look at the recent social media led north east issue fracas.

Now if its your point that supporting the US today, makes more sense & that might change the dynamics of US withdrawal, lead to some sort of US-India alliance. The question is - where is the evidence?

As things stand - the US continues to go slow on proper tech partnership regarding TOT for Javelin missiles, dual use supplies. They continue to play a balancing game between India & Pak. US Presidential contenders take jibes at outsourcing to India & Indian IT companies (which India clearly regards as one of its key high growth segments) are targeted in terms of business rules and regulations.

Don't see anywhere that India is now a strategic partner with which a comprehensive plan is being worked out.

If you are so eager to fight the Taliban or that India fight the Taliban, consider this sobering fact. One way or the other, if the US leaves in 2014 with drawdown thereafter, Pakistan will send the same jihadis to attack us over the LOC.
India will be fighting the Taliban one way or the other.