India-Russia: News & Analysis

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Oct 2012 22:29

Let USA come in the market with LNG. TAPI etc were relevant in last decade . There is going to be a glut in the market . US will sell NG cheaper than ME or Russia . India wont need TAPI and it wont be in the interest of Uncle either, so soon they will stop insisting on it. IF we can spend half the money we loose in bribes , Japanese tech to harvest Methane noodles on the floor of Bhart Mahasagar can transofrm our economy in no time. But this will kill commission and shut the loopholes for Rishwatkhor BDys in Delhi who deliberately keep the energy sector underdeveloped.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 24 Oct 2012 23:20

nvishal wrote:There's nothing dharmic about the ISKCON movement below the surface. It's just a few non-indian ethnic groups encroaching on and diluting inside a system which is strictly indian.

The usual suspects always crawl out of the woodwork everytime "Iskcon" is comes up. Nothing dharmic about it eh? Is that because they take an axe to your favourite neo-Advaitist org? Or did you get rubbed the wrong way by one of their adrenalized preachers?

Maybe you should have a chat with the authorities at the ShriVaishnava mathas who are embracing them. Maybe you should become advisor to even the Maadhva mathas which are embracing them after publicly reprimanding them for their neophyte understanding a couple decades ago. Maybe you should speak with authorities in the Sanskrit department at BHU, from where Iskcon brahmacharis of "non-Indic ethnicity" have been taking the annual awards in recent years. Maybe you should go on the "OIT thread" and tell people not to use the work of people like Vrin Parker and many other Iskon-affiliated people.

Iskon is a pretty interesting cultural conversion mechanism. Its OK if some Indics choose to maintain a safe distance, but do not pull them down. And stand by them when they are attacked by non-dharmics. The older and wiser dharmic organizations have observed the maturing, and are embracing them and straightening their aberrations out.

shyam wrote:My issue with Russia was for bringing in ISKCON for reciprocity from India. Had they given land for Ramakrishna Mission, Arya Samaj, Art of Living, Ammachi or any other organization and requested reciprocity, I would have said that we should consider. May be, we could give benefit of doubt to Russians that they don't understand Hinduism.

OK. I will also give the benefit of the doubt to you that you don't understand Hinduism in all its aspects.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 25 Oct 2012 09:16

^^^
Oh.. please cut this crap.

If Hare Krishna went through major child abuse scandal in unkil land, escaped without any major crisis, then it suddenly it started having issues in Russia, a country friendly to India, and some Hindu organizations in UK started making noise about that, anybody with trace of understanding of geopolitics can figure out that it is a politcal game and not religious. i.e. HKs no longer represent its older dharmic traditions its founder represented, and it has morphed into something else.

If you analyze what they are doing, they are converting their form of Hinduism in to one with clear monotheistic characteristics. Among HK followers, there may be few elements who sincerely want to learn Hinduism, but with our limited influence in HK we don't have any way to figure out whether that sincerety is genuine or another attempt to digest Hindu religious traditions into western tradition.

Don't go by what it shows outside, internally it could be very different from what we think it is.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 25 Oct 2012 10:02

shyam wrote:Don't go by what it shows outside, internally it could be very different from what we think it is.

First take the trouble of getting involved, befriending people, researching their material, and finding out what its really like from the inside, instead of spreading rumours and bullsh!tting about what it "could" be from inside.

shyam wrote:Among HK followers, there may be few elements who sincerely want to learn Hinduism, but with our limited influence in HK we don't have any way to figure out whether that sincerety is genuine or another attempt to digest Hindu religious traditions into western tradition.

Shows how closely you follow what you criticize. Both within India and in N. America, the leadership is moving into Indian hands. In fact, the older generation complains that its becoming another ethnic Indian congregation, instead of doing the job of converting Abrahamics. As for the non-Indian members, they often make the greatest sacrifices. And they will themselves admit that the organization was infiltrated by the CIA and worse. But they're coming through it -- only because of the support of older Indic institutions, rather than the kind of malicious backstabbing from the likes of yourself.

Once again, kindly reconsider your opinions -- or at least restrain yourself from talking without even attempting to properly verify things from the "inside".

shyam wrote:If you analyze what they are doing, they are converting their form of Hinduism in to one with clear monotheistic characteristics.

Listen, you "cut the crap". Don't keep dragging around this BS false dichotomy between "monotheissm versus monism". Hinduism includes both. If you don't understand, that's your problem. The majority of Indic schools of Vedanta happen to be an Indic form of monotheism -- different from the Semitic monotheisms for sure, but they're not neo-Advaitist. Deal with it.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 25 Oct 2012 10:52

It is getting OT, so my last post on this.

In India-Forum, a dude called "harekrishna" used to post all pro-HK posts and would painfully explain to everyone, who would criticize HK, what it is. But he was a closet hardcore AIT guy, and believed that Hinduism came from outside to India. One day when some forum members posted genetic evidence against AIT, and that tripped this fellow. Next day he started writing filth about some members and admins eventualy banned him. What he showed is hidden duality in his HK belief. He was clearly not a dharmic person.

One day an Indian HK guy (whome I had met before in front of a shop) came to my house, along with another Indian, and tried explaining to me that Krishna is above Vishnu as per HareKrishna philosophy. I had a debate with him how he could say that when Krishna was avatar of Vishnu, that was born and later died, could be above the Vishnu himself. That is twisting of Indian traditional belief to confuse general population. After sometime he agreed with my point. I refused to donate any money and did not accept their book. He asked if I had any problem in accepting their prasad, and I did not have any.

After this incident I never saw him in my area and I hope he left HK movement itself.

I am yet to see global Indian leadership in Harekrishna movement. Please share with us, if you have any evidence.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 25 Oct 2012 11:26

^^

Seriously? THIS is your sorry excuse of a spit-and-run rumour-mongering and blackening of an entire society??

How about this for comparison -- one day I met a guy from the RK mission who tried to convince me that Paramahamsa Ramakrishna was the avatar of Vishnu and was even greater than both Ram and Krishna combined. I argued that this seems absurd, though I appreciate the devotional claims of his disciples like Swami Vivekananda. But he was adamant, and kept arguing. Later I found out he was also struggling to come to terms with the fact that he had homosexual tendencies, (true story). Similarly, I've met others who were also supporters of AIT, I've met Tamil Iyers who told me their Aryan ancestors had links with Greece. So all this goes to show what exactly?? That the whole RK Mission is from cuckoo-land? Or that all Iyers are AIT-nazis?

My friend, I have already mentioned before that intellectually-inclined Hare Krishnas from Russia, South America win awards for excelling at traditional institutions of higher learning, and they can hold their own in shastric debate, FWIW. They didn't come out of thin air, Bhaktivedanta Swami wasn't their only acharya, he just created Iskcon as a portal to a larger tradition. An intelligent person doesn't take a neophyte door-to-door preacher's foolishness and hold that up as a representative sample. Regarding AIT, when their founder Prabhupada was once asked in a German congregation whether the Vikings were Aryan Kshatriyas, he famously replied - "No, they were just murderers." All their books talk of India as the core of a supposedly world wide civilization. Now whether white is given some importance over black is not yet clear to me from what I've read or discussed. That's an interesting question.

shyam wrote:I am yet to see global Indian leadership in Harekrishna movement. Please share with us, if you have any evidence.

What "global Indian leadership" are you talking about - are you capable of being specific at all? Anyway, their members have been very active in changing the school history-syllabus in the some states in the US that misrepresents Hinduism. They are single-handedly responsible for more cultural conversions to Indic thought and living than most other orgs. Their preachers roamed singing kirtan in the hollowed-out urban warzones of Chechnya, to the villages of the Congo - they don't only go where Indian professionals settle. They are actively preaching in the Islamic world, including Bangladesh -- that's why Iskcon temples were attacked there. They have decided to put aside ideological differences and share the same platform with other Dharmic institutions in a pan-Indic alliance to protect Dharma in India. Etc, etc.

If you are interested, do some more research yourself. At the very least, kindly desist from further scurrilous remarks that backstabs a Dharmic organization that comes under attack for taking Abrahamic churches head-on at their own game.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 25 Oct 2012 15:07

^^^ bravo.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Oct 2012 23:31

A Russian lady has suggested that we eplore a supposed demographic time-bomb in far-east Russia. Her words were roughy as follows:
"Russians there say that the population is not yet Chinese, but the next generation is not Russian...
Russian women are very keen to marry immigrant Chinese men, since they do not drink as much as Russian men, and therefore do not get impotent at 35, and do not die at 40 like Russian men.
Without alcoholism, Chinese men with also PRC state/bank support apparently seem to succeed in their biz enterprises.
Women want to have a stable family, a man capable of giving children, and stable income, with no attendant problems that result from alcoholism.
...there will be a 40% reduction in fresh college admissions over the next 2 years"

The missing population problem of Russia: Chinese entry. How should we game this from the Indian viewpoint?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Oct 2012 23:39

brihaspati ji,

very good that you are looking into this.

I think we should be expanding there into agriculture with support from Indian banks. It would be a good return on investment, and many Indian farmers can move to Russia as well, especially the Far-East. Put in a program for Indian farmers to learn Russian. It must be done systematically. Once a bridge has been established, and the bank sees good returns on investment, more would follow.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 26 Oct 2012 23:40

You bring up an interesting dimension to the India-Russia relationship Bji. IMO, the writing was on the wall when Russia took on a junior role to China in the SCO. Their geographical location bordering China, shrinking population, political system, and aim to contain NATO will bring them closer to China. We should have close relations with them but ultimately we can only rely on ourselves to build up comprehensive national strength.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Oct 2012 23:49

BTW, just saying!

If Russian Orthodox Church is allowed into India, and some Indians "convert" per forma to Russian Orthodox Church, then I think the Church could play a pivotal role in transfer of Indians to Russia as well as with marriage to Russian women.

Like I said, just saying!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 26 Oct 2012 23:53

RajeshA ji, that's possible. Also, a lot of Russians marry Indians via other spiritual groups, mostly Indic. Also, why only Russian women? Inter-marriage with, both, Russian women and men, is a good thing.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Oct 2012 23:57

Carl ji,

I'm for old style expansion, the R1a1a expansion!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Oct 2012 23:57

The huge de-population of Russia under Stalin, later World War II and Hitler's concentration camps had a massive impact on Russian men. They took to alcoholism and etc.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 27 Oct 2012 19:13

ramana wrote:The huge de-population of Russia under Stalin, later World War II and Hitler's concentration camps had a massive impact on Russian men. They took to alcoholism and etc.

I think Indians could aid Russians in many ways.

One way is of course Bhakri Marga as in say ISKON.

Another is Yoga Marga, where Rishis and Gurus like Sri Sri Ravi Shankar have discovered ways from Yoga Marga, such as Sudarshan Kriya and Bhastrika and so on and on, that make individuals experience better lifestyle first hand by channelizing Prana etc. This does not need fancy stuff sold in the name of Yoga. It is free for individuals everyday just by improving balance within the body in simple Yogic exercises. This would definitely make Russians get less into booze and more into a balanced lifestyle that is needed all the time anyways.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 Oct 2012 20:51

ramana wrote:The huge de-population of Russia under Stalin, later World War II and Hitler's concentration camps had a massive impact on Russian men. They took to alcoholism and etc.

ramana garu,

needless to say, in every society people look for ways to deal with depression and bad times, but alcohol consume in Russia, like alcohol consume in much of rest of Europe is basically driven by leisure and social ritual. That is just simply what people do when they get together.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Oct 2012 21:03

I think in those cold climate one needs to drink to keep one self warm , without drinks it would be tough to survive in Europe or Russia.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 27 Oct 2012 22:47

Hain!!!
There is a difference between drinking and alcoholism. The latter is a serious problem in Russia and cold weather is no excuse IMHO. The Russians are drinking themselves to death and the Europeans arent.
Clubbing them together is itself wrong.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Oct 2012 00:09

Alcoholism in Russia - as it stands today - is primarily a product of the communist government under USSR phase. There are ample pointers as to how the communist regime deliberately made cheap alcohol available to the men, as a means of [among many others] of social control. It may seem self-contradictory, but at a certain stage of totalitarian centralization, alcohol seemed to have been seen as an effective desenitizer and rebellion-subversion suppressor.

All cultural expressions, the free ability to even joke against the powerful - is all but non-existent, even if the Soviet era body of jokes circulating underground at the expense of CPSU elite, is huge. Then there is quite extensive poverty. In India, at least even if your stomach is emoty - you might still be able to sing or curse the leadership in most parts of India [except of course in certain areas and certain circles where any negative comment about constructed sacrosanct icons may land in infinite and continuing harassment in India - in Russia you might just vanish]. But Putin, [almost Vladimir IV], is not much different from the communist regime in many ways. So there is essentially no change in the repressive framework.

Alchohol is the only socially available great soporific.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Oct 2012 01:45

there are people who do not touch a drop of alcohol in North dakota etc

these places are just as cold

dont think the native canadians drink too much either

so cold is no reason for the alcoholism

btw Russians in the states in nice warm place swig alcohol by the gallon

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Oct 2012 08:33

brihaspati wrote:Alcoholism in Russia - as it stands today - is primarily a product of the communist government under USSR phase. There are ample pointers as to how the communist regime deliberately made cheap alcohol available to the men, as a means of [among many others] of social control. It may seem self-contradictory, but at a certain stage of totalitarian centralization, alcohol seemed to have been seen as an effective desenitizer and rebellion-subversion suppressor.

All cultural expressions, the free ability to even joke against the powerful - is all but non-existent, even if the Soviet era body of jokes circulating underground at the expense of CPSU elite, is huge. Then there is quite extensive poverty. In India, at least even if your stomach is emoty - you might still be able to sing or curse the leadership in most parts of India [except of course in certain areas and certain circles where any negative comment about constructed sacrosanct icons may land in infinite and continuing harassment in India - in Russia you might just vanish]. But Putin, [almost Vladimir IV], is not much different from the communist regime in many ways. So there is essentially no change in the repressive framework.

Alchohol is the only socially available great soporific.

I talked to Russian cardiologist who is a native of St Petersburg. I was told about the reasons for alcoholism is the massive deaths in the two decade period of 1930 -1950. Life was bleak and the resort to it was an escape.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Oct 2012 09:08

Most certainly Russia is on top of the list by consumption many European country are not far behind either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... onsumption

Surya in cold Alcohol helps keep one self warm and keep the spirits high

Ofcourse there could be many exceptions there but drinking is different from alcholism

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 28 Oct 2012 09:13

Surya wrote:there are people who do not touch a drop of alcohol in North dakota etc

these places are just as cold

They are Mormons. They have a very closely knit religious community to flock to and cheer one another up, and they cherish classical Western culture, music, etc. Plenty to edify the mind in bleak weather.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Oct 2012 09:25

This deal should do good for BP and get help some cash ( $17.1 billion ) in hand after the battering they took from US Govt

Rosneft sees $5B synergy savings from TNK-BP deal

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 28 Oct 2012 10:07

Austin wrote:Most certainly Russia is on top of the list by consumption many European country are not far behind either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... onsumption

Surya in cold Alcohol helps keep one self warm and keep the spirits high

Ofcourse there could be many exceptions there but drinking is different from alcholism

tauba tauba, quite a many number of arap countries in the list.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 28 Oct 2012 17:59

Austin wrote:Most certainly Russia is on top of the list by consumption many European country are not far behind either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... onsumption

Surya in cold Alcohol helps keep one self warm and keep the spirits high

Ofcourse there could be many exceptions there but drinking is different from alcholism

And most of those countries are also in population decline.

Of those listed in top 12 only the Czech Republic, Andorra and Slovenia have a stable or increasing population.

Russia has an alcoholism problem, its part of the reason why the men's life expectancy there is much lower (though it has improved) compared to the women's.

Most of the former Soviet states have these problems and also the problem of population decline.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 28 Oct 2012 18:56

This list seems to be Lahori...can't believe Singapore is so way down below Turkey...also don't see any arap until Bahrain which is too small..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Oct 2012 20:54

Russia unhappy with India over Kudankulam

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Oct 2012 20:58

India’s Ayni military base in Tajikistan is Russia-locked

India, Russia and the Asia-Pacific

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Oct 2012 08:21

Here's a great "titbit" on happenings in the Russian Orthodox Church,which I'm sure will be very welcome in India,extremely popular amongst its members,esp. those who wear political caps like ND Tiwari and a vanished Congress spokesman!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... mises.html

Moscow police 'discover brothel on monastery premises'
Moscow police have discovered a brothel on the premises of a monastery whose abbot is thought to be President Vladimir Putin's spiritual adviser.

By Tom Parfitt, Moscow

3:45PM GMT 29 Oct 2012

Two women were arrested on suspicion of prostitution after seven rooms were found in a building close to Sretensky Monastery where sexual services were offered from 1,750 roubles (£35) per hour.

Father Tikhon, the abbot of the monastery, is said to be a religious counsellor to Mr Putin, who is a confirmed Russian Orthodox believer.

There were conflicting reports over the ownership of the brothel, found in one of a chain of mini-hotels called Podushkin.

Life News, a popular muckraking website with close ties to the police and security services, said the building where the brothel was located on Rozhdestvensky Boulevard had been rented out by the monastery.

However, an attendant at the monastery was quoted as saying: "Some time ago we rented premises for our seminary. The bordello was only found then, when we started to check which rooms had become temporarily ours, and which hadn't. This establishment had been there for a long time; it belongs to someone and has absolutely no connection to us."

Another source at the monastery told Interfax news agency that monks "had heard that next to us was a hotel offering 'intimate services'" but it was nothing to do with them.

A video of the alleged brothel showed leather harnesses, chains and whips hanging in a basement and Podushkin's website advertises rooms in the hotel "fitted out for erotic games".

Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church took a harsh stance earlier this year when three members of the Pussy Riot feminist opposition group staged a "punk prayer" during which they danced a cancan in Moscow's main cathedral, Christ the Saviour.

The church leader, who is a close ally of Mr Putin, called the protest blasphemous. The three women were later convicted and sentenced to two years in prison, although one has since been released on appeal.

Critics of the church say its moral posturing is eroded by the behaviour of senior clerics. Patriarch Kirill was pilloried in April for wearing a £20,000 Breguet watch and a priest in Moscow came under scrutiny in August after crashing a BMW Z4 roadster with Maltese license plates.

The fact that a commercial car-wash operates underneath Christ the Saviour has also been ridiculed.

The church, meanwhile, claims it is the victim of a smear campaign.

Sretensky Monastery was founded in 1397. Its abbot, Father Tikhon, has played down his connection to Mr Putin, but admits they know each other since before the latter first became president in 2000.

Police said they were searching for the organisers of the brothel.

PS:It gives a new meaning to the ancient chant,"holy,holy,holy...!"

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Oct 2012 09:40

Philip ji,

St. Augustine, in "De ordine", sees prostitution as a necessary evil:

“What can one find that is more ignoble, more deprived of honor, more charged with turpitude, than commercial women, procurers and all such scourges. If one suppresses prostitutes, the passions will convulse society; if one gives them the place that is reserved for honest women everything becomes degraded in defilement and ignominy. Thus, this type of human being, whose morals carry impurity to its lowest depths, occupies, according to the laws of general order, a place, although certainly the most vile place, at the heart of society.”

Russian Orthdox priests themselves collaborated with communist regime in spying on its own members and the general population. The KGB/NKVD forced many women to become state prostitutes for spying as well as subverting enemie sof the party or foreign nationals. In many cases these women were simply ordered to be sex-slaves or used so on blackmail by holding a brother/son/husband/father hostage. Communists all over the world are very "strategic" in their use of women - you will rarely find prominent or top-boss leadership position among communists given to women, while a kind of free-love or sharing of female resources prevails in various forms. Most often communists demand that sexual relations are determined by the needs of the party rather than individuals.

Stalin rehabilitated the Orthodox church during WWII, and since then a devils understanding is suspected to have gone on. If the state itself was so deeply involved in using women sexually for its agenda, and the church got close to the party - why would you expect at least some members not to be drawn into the lucrative and pleasurable trade?

The churches throughout the ages, have always shown a tendency to accumulate property, wealth, political intrigue, and in an underground sort of way - use of women as a source of power.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2012 11:32

Philip wrote:Critics of the church say its moral posturing is eroded by the behaviour of senior clerics. Patriarch Kirill was pilloried in April for wearing a £20,000 Breguet watch and a priest in Moscow came under scrutiny in August after crashing a BMW Z4 roadster with Maltese license plates.

The fact that a commercial car-wash operates underneath Christ the Saviour has also been ridiculed.

IF true is no different to what Christ referred to as High Priest and Pharisees seeking for their own glory and pride over gods work ......what a sad thing and a shameful one indeed

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 30 Oct 2012 13:34

Carl wrote:The usual suspects always crawl out of the woodwork everytime "Iskcon" is comes up.

Carl, there's nothing personal against them. Some people on this board like the idea of spreading dharma centric beliefs systems outside the indian sub-continent but this short sighted ambition is going to become a problem in the long run for indians themselves. A sunni muslim in bangladesh or indonesia will have allegiance to saudi arabia. A catholic in mangalore or kolkatta will have allegiance to the vatican. The same doesn't happen with indian religions. They can turn people into their subjects(superior subordinate relationship); we can't.

Essentially what im saying is we might be giving away our flag.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2012 13:48

nvishal wrote:A catholic in mangalore or kolkatta will have allegiance to the vatican.

Thats a very wrong statement to make.

Catholic in India has as much allegiance and love for India as any other citizen of this country and I dare say that we have done far more compared to our percentage in India population for the upliftment of society specially for the poor of this country.

Christianity in its core follows Christ and his teachings doesn't matter where Pope sits.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2012 14:01

Building Brand Russia in India

Hiccups in India-Russia ties

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Oct 2012 14:07

Health problems behind Putin’s postponement of India trip - Report

Russian President Vladimir Putin’s postponement of his trip to India from early November to the end of November may have been caused by back problems, Reuters said, citing 3 government sources. One of the sources told the news agency that the Russian President would require surgery in the near future.

Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that the news about Putin’s back troubles “did not correspond to reality.”

“The chief is not well,” one source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the news agency. Another said Putin had been seen recently wearing a back brace. “No one has announced this formally, but everyone knows that foreign visits are being cancelled because of his illness,” the agency quoted as another source as saying.

Putin also postponed a visit to Turkey, for which a new date has not yet been announced. Media reports said Putin was caught by TV cameras complaining to Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov that he was on restricted diet, at the APEC summit in Vladivostok in September.

Putin not being happy with Dmitry Rogozin’s visit to India were inaccurate. “Rogozin didn’t go to Delhi with a magic wand,” the source said. “No one expected him to solve the Kundankulam issue...in fact India’s agreement to pay more for the 3rd and 4th reactors doused the fire on the liability law,” the source said.

Another source close to Kremlin insiders told RIR that New Delhi was in the know of the Russian President’s health problems but made sure that such information was not leaked to the Indian media. “The official line told by Moscow and Delhi was that the delay was caused by a domestic problem and the sides agreed to stick to this, despite a potential media barrage of speculation,” the source said

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 31 Oct 2012 02:03

nvishal wrote:Carl, there's nothing personal against them. Some people on this board like the idea of spreading dharma centric beliefs systems outside the indian sub-continent but this short sighted ambition is going to become a problem in the long run for indians themselves. A sunni muslim in bangladesh or indonesia will have allegiance to saudi arabia. A catholic in mangalore or kolkatta will have allegiance to the vatican. The same doesn't happen with indian religions. They can turn people into their subjects(superior subordinate relationship); we can't.

Essentially what im saying is we might be giving away our flag.

Dear nvishal ji, if I understand you correctly, I think this is exactly the kind of misguided (and sometimes crooked) mentality that RajeshA ji was referring to in this post.

1. On the one hand you claim that Dharmic traditions are different from Abrahamic, and on the other hand you say this. This selfish paranoia is antithetical to the spirit of dharma itself. Dharma and Brahman are interrelated, so only an expansive spirit of mercy and creativity can sustain dharma. We have to learn to re-interpret and understand it in Present Time.

2. Secondly, your suspicions are especially out-of-place in this case because, of all the different Indic movements that have gone Westward, there is none more Indocentric -- culturally and geographically - than Iskcon. This is evidenced not only by their books (and insistence on vidhi/shari'ah marga) or their paraphernalia, but practically on the ground in terms of the communities they set up outside or within India. Within India, the only such movement that has raised a whole vibrant town as a very active vatican on Indian soil is Iskcon. Not Theosophical society, not RK Mission, not Auroville, not Osho, not Yogananda, not even Yogi Bhajan. In fact, it is this very Indocentric ideology that seems to attract the large numbers of people within India itself, where the org is growing most rapidly. In fact, this ethnocentric insistence on acculturation is so strong that even within India it is Bengal (plus Bangladesh) that they consider above all, and which they want to reclaim - their founder citing Communism (and associated Mayavada), Islamism as the great evils.

3. But even if that weren't the case, even if Iskcon was just another pseudo-intellectual neo-Vedantic society of sorts, what "flag" would you lose? This attitude of yours has been commented upon by RajeshA ji in other caste-Brahminism related discussions -- "Vedic dharma must remain a deep secret in the safety of our chosen gotras, let the rest of the people go entertain themselves and work their karma out in various other 'isms'. All we need to do is keep surviving as a community." This perverse logic and special feeling seems to get applied at every level - by caste-Brahmins to caste-shudras, by Hindus to non-Hindus, etc.

4. For the sake of Dharmic unity, you're willing to share the platform with Veda-negating Buddhists from East Asia, and even other atheist nationalists. But not Western Vaishnavas? I notice some objectors have an aversion to anything resembling "monotheism". Clearly, there is no logical-philosophical basis for this allergy. It is a body-based and history-centric attachment to special identity. But AFAIK, that has a rather low priority in the Vedic scheme of things. As for the psychological aversion to certain aspects of Veda itself, that is probably a higher priority IMHO.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Oct 2012 04:18

My Rus interface says that the police is cracking down suddenly on "brothels" - and according to them, it is more about preventing men accessing the "services" so that they are forced to get into monogamous relations and produce babies, as well as forcing women to be available for "families". This was apparently an internal state ruse also before [communist era] to try and push up the numbers.

But the state will never acknowledge that the communist tendency to think of populations as disposable lots, have cost them dearly. My Russian friends appear to be quite pessimistic of the trend - they think it is already too late - demographically.

There is gaming that Russia may have to give up on its "east" and shrink to "white Russia" or west of the Urals. The national/state library has recently been moved from Petrograd to Moscow after sacking some 300 odd employees. Putin is concentrating an inordinate number of institutions into Moscow - surpassing the concentration at the preparatory stage of Stalin's 37 purges.

I asked as to why Putin seems to be tolerating a coterie of "friends" who mad etheir billions in the same mafia style disinvestment at the hands of comunist/USSR appointed "red managers" that destroyed state assets, impoversihed the commons, and against whom Putin later on went in with red hot tongs and possibly plutonium.

The answer was that Putin did not feel himself that powerful to eliminate all the red-manager legacy all at once. But he might just be waiting to do a Stalin on the same [eliminating close deputies by the less close and make them close and repeat the procedure].

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 01 Nov 2012 13:46

@ Carl
I've not been bought into this fantasy of spreading indian religions etc etc outside the indian sub-continent. Im more attracted to the indian trait of free thought which is indigenous to this land rather than the concepts of dharma or brahman. My primary concern is for the people living on this land. Even if some have messed up there in the south, they are still our people.

You misunderstand me on my thoughts. What I would like more than anything is for islam to get an equal footing with christianity in europe and the rest of the west. In fact, i would very much like to encourage those so-called hindu white converts in the west to switch to islam.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Nov 2012 15:22

nvishal wrote:@ Carl
I've not been bought into this fantasy of spreading indian religions etc etc outside the indian sub-continent. Im more attracted to the indian trait of free thought which is indigenous to this land rather than the concepts of dharma or brahman. My primary concern is for the people living on this land. Even if some have messed up there in the south, they are still our people.

You misunderstand me on my thoughts. What I would like more than anything is for islam to get an equal footing with christianity in europe and the rest of the west. In fact, i would very much like to encourage those so-called hindu white converts in the west to switch to islam.

Is Islam in Saudi Arabia safe, because Saudis are so pious or is it safe because Islam is followed by over a billion people all over the world?