Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

[devesh]

So West can manipulate almost all of the globe by using Islam, Catholicsm, Anglicanism, Communism - but two pockets stand out [a third of them could be the "Persian" and not the current Iranian].

brihaspati ji,

I would add Japan and Israel to that list of "indigestibles". for all their trying over centuries, the Judaic father refuses to "roll over and die". and even after facing abject destruction at the hands of the West, Japan has saved its basic cultural/social core from getting raped and mauled. their independent "cultural core" is still intact and capable of regenerating their civilization.

[brihaspati]

So West can manipulate almost all of the globe by using Islam, Catholicsm, Anglicanism, Communism - but two pockets stand out [a third of them could be the "Persian" and not the current Iranian].

brihaspati ji,

I would add Japan and Israel to that list of "indigestibles". for all their trying over centuries, the Judaic father refuses to "roll over and die". and even after facing abject destruction at the hands of the West, Japan has saved its basic cultural/social core from getting raped and mauled. their independent "cultural core" is still intact and capable of regenerating their civilization.

Very true. Problem with these two is their lack of resources - especially territory and population numbers - which makes them vulnerable and compromise. India and Russia are two entities that can hold their own.

[RoyG]

It restricts their power.

Eventually. But for now it's keeping them warm.

[RamaY]

^ may be they think they have the global critical mass

[devesh]

their confidence is up to the level, where now they think their very patrons, who were so instrumental in helping them gather strength all these decades, have become an obstacle for further "ascendance". the monsters birthed by the regime now want to eat up the mother ship.

Tathastu!

[RoyG]

I don't think Muslims and Christians are powerful enough at the moment. I think they will lie low for a bit longer. On the other hand it may be that they perceive the secular shackles failing to keep hindus from coalescing. They may not have a choice now.

[ramana]

RoyG, Also they don't have too many of the Jewish faith in India. Usually they (M&C) find common cause against them everywhere. John Dayal is saying lets find common cause against the Hindus with secualrs backing them.

[brihaspati]

That leaves only Hindus+Buddhists+Sikhs+Jews. Against : the two other branches+communists+in-betweeners. Balance of power is in the latter's favour because they have the coercive machinery with a parallel disarming of the population.

[member_19686]

So West can manipulate almost all of the globe by using Islam, Catholicsm, Anglicanism, Communism - but two pockets stand out [a third of them could be the "Persian" and not the current Iranian].

brihaspati ji,

I would add Japan and Israel to that list of "indigestibles". for all their trying over centuries, the Judaic father refuses to "roll over and die". and even after facing abject destruction at the hands of the West, Japan has saved its basic cultural/social core from getting raped and mauled. their independent "cultural core" is still intact and capable of regenerating their civilization.

Japan was under assault at least 3 times and repulsed them, in fact the very first penetration was the most serious of them all though few non Japanese know about it.

See:

The sociological significance of this episode is instructive. Excepting, perhaps, the division of the imperial house against itself in the twelfth century, the greatest danger that ever threatened Japanese national integrity was the introduction of Christianity by the Portuguese Jesuits. The nation saved itself only by ruthless measures, at the cost of incalculable suffering and of myriads of lives.

It was during the period of great disorder preceding Nobunaga's effort to centralize authority, that this unfamiliar disturbing factor was introduced by Xavier and his followers. Xavier landed at Kagoshima in 1549; and by 1581 the Jesuits had upwards of two hundred churches in the country. This fact alone sufficiently indicates the rapidity with which the new religion spread; and it seemed destined to extend over the entire empire. In 1585 a Japanese religious embassy was received at Rome; and by that date no less than eleven daimyo, - or "kings," as the Jesuits not inaptly termed them - had become converted. Among these were several very powerful lords. The new creed had made rapid way among the common people also: it was becoming "popular," in the strict meaning of the word.

When Nobunaga rose to power, he favoured the Jesuits in many ways - not because of any sympathy with their creed, for he never dreamed of becoming a Christian, but because he thought that their influence would be of service to him in his campaign against Buddhism. Like the Jesuits themselves, Nobunaga had no scruple about means in his pursuit of ends. More ruthless than William the Conqueror, he did not hesitate to put to death his own brother and his own father-in-law, when they dared to oppose his will. The aid and protection which he extended to the foreign priests, for merely political reasons, enabled them to develop their power to a degree which soon gave him cause for repentance. Mr. Gubbins, in his "Review of the Introduction of Christianity into China and Japan," quotes from a Japanese work, called Ibuki Mogusa, an interesting extract on the subject: -

"Nobunaga now began to regret his previous policy in permitting the introduction of Christianity. He accordingly assembled his retainers, and said to them: - 'The conduct of these missionaries in persuading people to join them by giving money, does not please me. How would it be, think you, if we were to demolish Nambanji [The "Temple of the Southern Savages" - so the Portuguese church was called]?' To this Mayeda Tokuzenin replied. 'It is now too late to demolish the Temple of the Namban. To endeavour to arrest the power of this religion now is like trying to arrest the current of the ocean. Nobles, both great and small, have become adherents of it. If you would exterminate this religion now, there is fear that disturbance should be created among your own retainers. I am therefore of opinion that you should abandon your intention of destroying Nambanji.' Nobunaga in consequence regretted exceedingly his previous action in regard to the Christian religion, and set about thinking how he could root it out."

The assassination of Nobunaga in 1586 may have prolonged the period of toleration. His successor Hideyoshi, who judged the influence of the foreign priests dangerous, was for the moment occupied with the great problem of centralizing the military power, so as to give peace to the country. But the furious intolerance of the Jesuits in the southern provinces had already made them many enemies, eager to avenge the cruelties of the new creed. We read in the histories of the missions about converted daimyo burning thousands of Buddhist temples, destroying countless works of art, and slaughtering Buddhist priests; - and we find the Jesuit writers praising these crusades as evidence of holy zeal. At first the foreign faith had been only persuasive; afterwards, gathering power under Nobunaga's encouragement, it became coercive and ferocious. A reaction against it set in about a year after Nobunaga's death. In 1587 Hideyoshi destroyed the mission churches in Kyoto, Osaka, and Sakai, and drove the Jesuits from the capital; and in the following year he ordered them to assemble at the port of Hirado, and prepare to leave the country. They felt themselves strong enough to disobey: instead of leaving Japan, they scattered through the country, placing themselves under the protection of various Christian daimyo. Hideyoshi probably thought it impolitic to push matters further: the priests kept quiet, and ceased to preach publicly; and their self-effacement served them well until 1591. In that year the advent of certain Spanish Franciscans changed the state of affairs. These Franciscans arrived in the train of an embassy from the Philippines, and obtained leave to stay in the country on condition that they were not to preach Christianity. They broke their pledge, abandoned all prudence, and aroused the wrath of Hideyoshi. He resolved to make an example; and in 1597 he had six Franciscans, three Jesuits, and several other Christians taken to Nagasaki and there crucified. The attitude of the great Taiko toward the foreign creed had the effect of quickening the reaction against it, - a reaction which had already begun to show itself in various provinces. But Hideyoshi's death in 1598 enabled the Jesuits to hope for better fortune. His successor, the cold and cautious Iyeyasu, allowed them to hope, and even to reestablish themselves in Kyoto, Osaka, and elsewhere. He was preparing for the great contest which was to be decided by the battle of Sekigahara; - he knew that the Christian element was divided, - some of its leaders being on his own side, and some on the side of his enemies; - and the time would have been ill chosen for any repressive policy. But in 1606, after having solidly established his power, Iyeyasu for the first time showed himself decidedly opposed to Christianity by issuing an edict forbidding further mission work, and proclaiming that those who had adopted the foreign religion must abandon it. Nevertheless the propaganda went on - conducted no longer by Jesuits only, but also by Dominicans and Franciscans. The number of Christians then in the empire is said, with gross exaggeration, to have been nearly two millions. But Iyeyasu neither took, nor caused to be taken, any severe measures of repression until 1614, - from which date the great persecution may be said to have begun. Previously there had been local persecutions only, conducted by independent daimyo, - not by the central government. The local persecutions in Kyushu, for example, would seem to have been natural consequences of the intolerance of the Jesuits in the days of their power, when converted daimyo burned Buddhist temples and massacred Buddhist priests; and these persecutions were most pitiless in those very districts such as Bungo, Omura, and Higo - where the native religion had been most fiercely persecuted at Jesuit instigation. But from 1614 - at which date there remained only eight, out of the total sixty-four provinces of Japan, into which Christianity had not been introduced - the suppression of the foreign creed became a government matter; and the persecution was conducted systematically and uninterruptedly until every outward trace of Christianity had disappeared...

http://explorion.net/japan-attempt-inte ... suit-peril

[member_19686]

The fate of the missions, therefore, was really settled by Iyeyasu and his immediate successors; and it is the part taken by Iyeyasu that especially demands attention. Of the three great captains, all had, sooner or later, become suspicious of the foreign propaganda; but only Iyeyasu could find both the time and the ability to deal with the social problem which it had aroused. Even Hideyoshi had been afraid to complicate existing political troubles by any rigorous measures of an extensive character. Iyeyasu long hesitated. The reasons for his hesitation were doubtless complex, and chiefly diplomatic. He was the last of men to act hastily, or suffer himself to be influenced by prejudice of any sort; and to suppose him timid would be contrary to all that we know of his character. He must have recognized, of course, that to extirpate a religion which could claim, even in exaggeration, more than a million of adherents, was no light undertaking, and would involve an immense amount of suffering. To cause needless misery was not in his nature: he had always proved himself humane, and a friend of the common people. But he was first of all a statesman and patriot; and the main question for him must have been the probable relation of the foreign creed to political and social conditions in Japan. This question required long and patient investigation; and he appears to have given it all possible attention. At last he decided that Roman Christianity constituted a grave political danger and that its extirpation would be an unavoidable necessity. The fact that the severe measures which he and his successors enforced against Christianity - measures steadily maintained for upwards of two hundred years - failed to completely eradicate the creed, proves how deeply the roots had struck. Superficially, all trace of Christianity vanished to Japanese eyes; but in 1865 there were discovered near Nagasaki some communities which had secretly preserved among themselves traditions of the Roman forms of worship, and still made use of Portuguese and Latin words relating to religious matters.

To rightly estimate the decision of Iyeyasu - one of the shrewdest, and also one of the most humane statesmen that ever lived, - it is necessary to consider, from a Japanese point of view, the nature of the evidence upon which he was impelled to act. Of Jesuit intrigues in Japan he must have had ample knowledge - several of them having been directed against himself; - but he would have been more likely to consider the ultimate object and probable result of such intrigues, than the mere fact of their occurrence. Religious intrigues were common among the Buddhists, and would scarcely attract the notice of the military government except when they interfered with state policy or public order. But religious intrigues having for their object the overthrow of government, and a sectarian domination of the country, would be gravely considered. Nobunaga had taught Buddhism a severe lesson about the danger of such intriguing. Iyeyasu decided that the Jesuit intrigues had a political object of the most ambitious kind; but he was more patient than Nobunaga. By 1603 he, had every district of Japan under his yoke; but he did not issue his final edict until eleven years later. It plainly declared that the foreign priests were plotting to get control of the government, and to obtain possession of the country: -

"The Kirishitan band have come to Japan, not only sending their merchant-vessels to exchange commodities, but also longing to disseminate an evil law, to overthrow right doctrine, so that they may change the government of the country, and obtain possession of the land. This is the germ of great disaster, and must be crushed.....

"Japan is the country of the gods and of the Buddha: it honours the gods, and reveres the Buddha.... The faction of the Bateren* disbelieve in the Way of the Gods, and blaspheme the true Law, - violate right-doing, and injure the good.... They truly are the enemies of the gods and of the Buddha.... If this be not speedily prohibited, the safety of the state will, assuredly hereafter be imperilled; and if those who are charged with ordering its affairs do not put a stop to the evil, they will expose themselves to Heaven's rebuke.

[*Bateren, a corruption of the Portuguese padre, is still the term used for Roman Catholic priests, of any denomination.]

"These [missionaries] must be instantly swept out, so that not an inch of soil remains to them in Japan on which to plant their feet; and if they refuse to obey this command, they shall suffer the penalty.... Let Heaven and the Four Seas hear this. Obey!"*

[*The entire proclamation, which is of considerable length, has been translated by Satow, and may be found in Vol. VI, part I, of the Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan.]

http://explorion.net/japan-attempt-inte ... ril?page=3

Discussion continued at the link above.

[jambudvipa]

Surasena ji thanks for posting about the actions of the first Tokugawa shogun.His ruthless action protected against Christian depredations for over 200 years.

Francis Xavier was a bigot and a fanatic.He was responsible for the Goan inquisition which resulted in the wholesale rape and murder of Hindus in the Konkan.To the credit of Vijayanagara emperors like Rama raya they did not hesitate to bash the Portugese christians into stopping their crusades.

It is ironic that there are Jesuit missions sitting on prime land in India and people take great pride in sending their children to "Xavier" schools and colleges.A permament deracinated "in betweener" class is being created.

[member_19686]

Surasena ji thanks for posting about the actions of the first Tokugawa shogun.His ruthless action protected against Christian depredations for over 200 years.

Francis Xavier was a bigot and a fanatic.He was responsible for the Goan inquisition which resulted in the wholesale rape and murder of Hindus in the Konkan.To the credit of Vijayanagara emperors like Rama raya they did not hesitate to bash the Portugese christians into stopping their crusades.

It is ironic that there are Jesuit missions sitting on prime land in India and people take great pride in sending their children to "Xavier" schools and colleges.A permament deracinated "in betweener" class is being created.

You are welcome jambudvipaji.

Note the parallels between 16th century Japan and 21st century India:

Apostates from Christianity were ready to foster the feeling against it. Thomas Araki, a Japanese priest who had been ordained at Rome, returned about 1605 to his own country and declared that while in Madrid he had discovered that Spain was using the missionaries to pave the way for the conquest of Japan. It was largely through his influence that the Daimyo of Omura was led to give up Christianity and become one of its persecutors. Japanese books tell of a native priest from Yatsushiro, Higo, who in 1611 told Ieyasu that the King of Spain every year devoted large sums to sending merchandise into lands as yet unconquered in order to help in gaining converts to Christianity. He declared that the missionaries sent back annual reports telling how many persons they had succeeded in winning, and that valuable goods were distributed among them in proportion to their success in gaining converts. When a sufficient number of the people in any land had been made allies through their religious faith, possession was taken of the country and its precious metals were sent to Spain.

http://historyofchristianityinjapan.wor ... in-1612-2/

References to the hated religion were not permitted in books, and its very name might have been almost forgotten were it not written so prominently on the public proclamation-boards of every town. As soon as a child could read, he saw upon the boards that the KIRISHITAN JASHU-MON (Evil Sect of Christianity) was strictly prohibited, and when he asked what this meant, he was told by his parents about the wily scheme of the barbarian nations that sought to gain possession of Japan by means of a religion that was a strange compound of foolish doctrines and powerful magic.

http://historyofchristianityinjapan.wor ... continued/

The above authors judgement on Ieyasu's actions:

Why Iyeyasu should have termed it a "false and corrupt religion," both in his Legacy and elsewhere, remains to be considered. From the Far-Eastern point of view he could scarcely have judged it otherwise, after an impartial investigation. It was essentially opposed to all the beliefs and traditions upon which Japanese society had been founded. The Japanese State was an aggregate of religious communities, with a God-King at its head; - the customs of all these communities had the force of religious laws, and ethics were identified with obedience to custom; filial piety was the basis of social order, and loyalty itself was derived from filial piety. But this Western creed, which taught that a husband should leave his parents and cleave to his wife, held filial piety to be at best an inferior virtue. It proclaimed that duty to parents, lords, and rulers remained duty only when obedience involved no action opposed to Roman teaching, and that the supreme duty of obedience was not to the Heavenly Sovereign at Kyoto, but to the Pope at Rome. Had not the Gods and the Buddhas been called devils by these missionaries from Portugal and Spain? Assuredly such doctrines were subversive, no matter how astutely they might be interpreted by their apologists. Besides, the worth of a creed as a social force might be judged from its fruits. This creed in Europe had been a ceaseless cause of disorders, wars, persecutions, atrocious cruelties. This creed, in Japan, had fomented great disturbances, had instigated political intrigues, had wrought almost immeasurable mischief. In the event of future political trouble, it would justify the disobedience of children to parents, of wives to husbands, of subjects to lords, of lords to shogun. The paramount duty of government was now to compel social order, and to maintain those conditions of peace and security without which the nation could never recover from the exhaustion of a thousand years of strife. But so long as this foreign religion was suffered to attack and to sap the foundations of order, there never could be peace.... Convictions like these must have been well established in the mind of Iyeyasu when he issued his famous edict. The only wonder is that he should have waited so long.

Very possibly Iyeyasu, who never did anything by halves, was waiting until Christianity should find itself without one Japanese leader of ability. In 1611 he had information of a Christian conspiracy in the island of Sado (a convict mining-district) whose governor, Okubo, had been induced to adopt Christianity, and was to be made ruler of the country if the plot proved successful. But still Iyeyasu waited. By 1614 Christianity had scarcely even an Okubo to lead the forlorn hope. The daimyo converted in the sixteenth century were dead or dispossessed or in banishment; the great Christian generals had been executed; the few remaining converts of importance had been placed under surveillance, and were practically helpless...

http://explorion.net/japan-attempt-inte ... ril?page=6

Some important names in this period are William Adams (first known Englishman to reach Japan & first known foreign Samurai, Ieyasu was informed of the machinations of the Catholic Church when he interviewed him, the well known novel Shogun by James Clavell is based on Adams life, they also made a TV series titled Shogun in the 80s with Richard Chamberlain playing the lead role), Cristovao Ferreira (Jesuit apostate in Japan).

Ieyasu's successors Hidetada and Iemitsu were even more strict.

[johneeG]

Surasena ji,

+1000 for posting it and +1000 for Japanese on such a passionate resistance of imperialism( in the guise of religion).

Surasena ji thanks for posting about the actions of the first Tokugawa shogun.His ruthless action protected against Christian depredations for over 200 years.

Francis Xavier was a bigot and a fanatic.He was responsible for the Goan inquisition which resulted in the wholesale rape and murder of Hindus in the Konkan.To the credit of Vijayanagara emperors like Rama raya they did not hesitate to bash the Portugese christians into stopping their crusades.

It is ironic that there are Jesuit missions sitting on prime land in India and people take great pride in sending their children to "Xavier" schools and colleges.A permament deracinated "in betweener" class is being created.

True. Yatha raja thatha praja...

the worth of a creed as a social force might be judged from its fruits.

This is an apt summarization.

Notice, that the resolve of the state was the decisive factor. Then, going after the leadership of the opponents was the key. After that, it was only mopping up the rest of the gang and preventing any re-rise.

In fact, such creeds have never developed without state support. Even in this case, it was the Japanese ruler who encouraged them initially. The same pattern(of state support and rise of the creed) is found through out Europe. Through out this time also, force and fraud have been their hallmarks.

In this case, once the official support was withdrawn and actively persecuted, the creed was defeated. This shows that creed thrives with official support and dies when opposed by the state.

In this light, the survival of Hinduism is truly miraculous which has survived at least 500 years of active persecution apart from equally long period of subtle fraud(and hostile propaganda) by the anti-Hindu rulers.

[brihaspati]

My Japanese friends and colleagues have pointed out to me the recently growing trend of prominent intellects switching to Catholicism - including a certain architect. The theologians are learning from each other - from other similarly proselytizing religions, and they are growing increasingly sophisticated in their manipulative techniques. Its not always just the lure of material gain.

The future of world ideology lies with an iteration of Hinduism that accepts all three of Kapil, Shankar and Madhva, as parallel [if not necessarily complementary] threads for life and practice and belief. However, to get to that point - needs a dispassionate, "nishkama" approach, that looks at all possible methods, with a firm view of the long term consequences.

Sometimes we do things, like the Americans, which seems to give us spectacular victory in a battle - a short term one, but that very method of winning in that particular battle, creates the conditions for eventual defeat in the war over the longer term.

[devesh]

you mean Japanese intellectuals are converting to Catholicism?! or the general world condition?

[brihaspati]

you mean Japanese intellectuals are converting to Catholicism?! or the general world condition?

No in Japan itself. Have asked to provide more data. Point is that the imperialist religions have not given up on trying to convert. There is increased Gulf presence too - and was watching some reports on their attempted "goodwill/showing Islams' kind heart" sort of stuff also. At the moment not much into the interior of the home islands - but restricted to the coastal cities.

[brihaspati]

I have confirmation from Russian language sources about the sacking of hgis defence minister by Putin. Putin watchers from inside Russia say, he is following the old KGB loyalty model, that developed under Lenin and Stalin. But where he is going to take this with the old communist - Lenin invented model of purges to take care of lack of democratic competition within politics [hence no natural weeding out of incompetents] to do the cleanup, is something to be seen. My estimate is that Putin is not physically very well, and with the looming demographic crisis - he is trying to tighten his control over the nation and brace for increased territorial attacks.

This is a peculiarly characteristic reaction of Russian autocrats - probably shaped up historically from experience with invasions, and having to do tricky compromises. The fallouts of any Putinsique preparation for suspected/imagined/real war threats for Russia, has to be carefully analyzed - as it does have consequences long-to-mid term for India.

We should reasonably model both Russian and Anglo penetration of our intel/political systems, and how proxy moves can be or will be worked out.

[devesh]

brihaspati ji,

what are your views on the argument that analyzing Shankara and others should be confined to those who have "command" of the books and not anybody outside of the "command"? on one hand, you are right when you say that it requires a cold, calculating, and long-sighted approach. but the existing forms of truly understanding these great "seers" is well and truly mired within highly sophisticated and complex verbiage.

those who want to explore this path need "primers" to begin their study. as their confidence and grasp grows, they will be able to handle increasing complexity. but there is no such facility as of yet. and a novice cannot begin with the existing forms of literature. it is boring and too verbally loaded in the vernacular forms.

the only ones which avoid it are the bhakti based forms, but then they end up taking the bhagavat-pada and "mumukshu" paths above all else. so "cold" calculation is impossible with them.

[brihaspati]

The lure of the bhagavat pada is quite strong because of its mass emotional appeal. But it can simply be used as a passing phase, and a tool - with a colder, shrewd group staying behing it - being part of it - but still not swept away entirely. Before his "release" from earth, apparently Chaitanya was sent a message from his birthland - that ran approximately as, "tell the mystic/that rice has gone scarce/dear". This was supposed to be a broad hint - that reality needed a reining in of the bhakti wave, and a turning back of attention to the concrete problems of a society, and that all those waves should come for a purpose and then be allowed to subside once the "cleanup/mobilization" was over.

If the agents of such mobilization outlive their purpose - they have to be made to "retire", unless they voiuntarily switch over the mode. I think the bhakti marga is a powerful weapon, and can be used to clean up a lot of the obfuscation and shenanigans that have been put into place by obscurantists and professional "interpreters" of the texts. None of our icons are sacrosanct - not even a Krsna is spared the penalty [claimed to be self-imposed] of getting pierced in the feet by an arrow because of past misdemeanours. We have a tradition of analyzing any entity based on their actions and not on their positions. So Shankara is very much public property - apologies if anyone thinks i have been too frivolous with words.

[Agnimitra]

devesh ji -

X-posting from Sanskrit Nukkad:

सर्वेशा चाधिकारो विद्याया च श्रेयः
केवलया विद्याया वेति सिद्धः ।

"It has been established that everyone has the right to the knowledge (of Brahman), and that the supreme goal is attained by that knowledge alone."
-- Adi Shankara in Taittiriya Upanishad Bhashya, 2.2

[Sanku]

There is always hope

http://www.indianexpress.com/Picture-Gallery/757/2

Anna Hazare and Akhil Gogoi -- anti illegal immigration rally.

[Atri]

There is always hope

http://www.indianexpress.com/Picture-Gallery/757/2

Anna Hazare and Akhil Gogoi -- anti illegal immigration rally.

Anna, I always had hope in.. it was his wretched team.. check this when he said -
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 82554.aspx

i remember how flabbergasted my secular friends were..

[devesh]

x-post from West Asia thread:

Obama's win was expected - so no fundamental change in any of the foreign policy issues. But have to remember that the current "liberal" coalition that supported Obama - would not like to risk greater direct US involvement in foreign wars, for that will be a surefire way to lose Dem chances in 2016. Obama may feel free to do stuff on his own because he now has nothing to lose, and yet there is going to be substantial pressure on him to rein in the warhorse.

He is likely to go soft on Iran, but take the steam off on Assad - while at the same time pressurizing the "rebels" to come to terms with Assad. UK often takes an extra lead whenever it comes to protecting Saudi/Gulf interests - the same extra leap that Blair gave on Iraq. It does not necessarily reflect a hidden signal from across the pond to do so.

Long view : I would see advantages in the GCC sweeping Syria through its Islamists and jihadists. It is time that hedging and hawing by the leadership of nations - comes to an end, and that they are forced to reveal their inner agenda and take clear positions on the sides of divisions. The Syria conflict is one where all the players are forced to open their cards. If Assad goes, and the inevitable jihadist regime comes to power - with full MB and Saudi support [together seems so unlikely to the pundits - but there is a common connection and that is the theologian network that spans both], Turkey essentially goes Islamist and the stretch between Bosphorus and the Gulf becomes one unending jihadist houriland.

Europe will try to deflect the backlash towards soft pedallers like India - whose current regime will find it impossible to take any steps that appears to go against Sunni "interests", and trans-national interests at that. This has an impact on the Indian regime too having to take clear sides. To take the pressure off Israel, and avoid a confrontation with Iran that promises to get Russia involved, if not PRC - most of the Anglo-EU block will surreptitiously push the jihadists towards India. Its a hobsons choice for Indian regimes. If they go with GCC, territorial control will have to be compromised in the north. If they resist the jihadists, Saudi led theologian networks will be displeased and they lose power in electoral politics [either through funding drying up or withdrawal of electoral support]. If they take refuge with US, theyw ill be forced to compromise with pakis and displease Russia. If they go with russia, US washes its hands off, and the west+GCC combine happily munches on Indian territory too. Non-Islamic imperialist religions will first demand submission to their authority before promising any help - and even then they would like the non-Abrahamic to be first sufficiently bashed up - so that later on they can clear the harvest for themselves without resistance. So in all of these ways, a coordinated GCC+west removal of Assad implies Indian regime has to take a position clearly with respect to Islamism from the peninsula.

Which is what is needed.

[brihaspati]

Following up on the continuing revelations about how the modern - post WWII totalitarian societies - the communist, Islamist, or the "outwardly democratic and free world", has managed regime transitions, one thing appears to me as consistent : the overwhelming expansion, persistence and remarkable ability of two networks to survive through all modern transitions,

that of the mercantile mentality oligarchy, and the secret police and politically motivated coercive wings of the intel and secret services.

In each of the transitions of regimes in the 20th century, these two remained largely unharmed. The totalitarian regimes and systems can be divided into two classes based on their external forms,

(a) overtly democratic and multi-institutional, apparently mutually competing centres of power within the oligarchy.
(b) overtly authoritarian and mono-institutional centre of power within the oligarchy. In this case, the intra-oligarchy competition for power is resolved through bloody and ruthless purges.

It is the latter case that is highlighted in western or "liberal" critiques of totalitarianism. However, what reveals the essential similarity of the power apparatus, and the mechanism by which power continues in the hands of a small group that ultimately controls all financial, economic, and associated tools of coercion [media, visible police, army] - is the uncannily similar role of the secret services in both forms.

The secret services are essentially transnational, and exist in a parallel world of coercion mirroring the power equations within the more economically active oligarchy - who perhaps are also transnational in their functioning.

This model of totalitarianism will perhaps help in understanding the continuous search for ever more "purity" in the outward social coercion arena of every Islamic society, (while its elite will therefore increase in its so-called "decadence" and "impurity") - and the role of the Islamic clergy and institutional network as the secret police. The same model shows why communist regimes in dominant power will go through periodic purges of its top echelons, while its attempt at policing the minds of its people will increase.

In formally democratic societies, the oligarchy will change face from time to time, even sacrificing iconic leaders, political, economic or military to provide an illusion of freedom and power for the people. But the essential underlying group basis of economic power and political coercion, the secret services, will increase their reach - more in suppressing and subverting dissent that is not channeled through the oligrachy, than in ensuring public security from foreign or ant-social aggression.

In the colonies that formally won "independence", most societies that did not win power through military defeat of older regime and a consequent physical liquidation or expulsion of older networks, the continuity in both oligrachy and secret services will continue. For example, an ex-colony is more likely to see a supreme leader more in tune with formal colonial modes than others who are less in tune with. These leaders might even be sacrificed spectacularly from time to time, but the underlying main power group - the mercantile interest group - continues in its below-the-surface control. So continues the secret services - which is therefore more likely to have continued transnational interfaces, sometimes legitimate by authority or instruction or policy of the successor govs, to ex-colonial systems.

This parallel base of secret service power comes in handy for the semi-invisible oligarchy, when they need to find a scape-goat among their own to sacrifice in order to prevent an all-out bloddy expression of revolt by large masses of people that could breakdown the twin apparatus of mercantile and secret-police power. The Romanian dictator might have been tried and executed in under one hour without witnesses and a formal chargesheet, but the mysterious assassinations of leaders of the subcontinent could essentially be a similar process.

[Prem]

Potential weapon to kill Pseudo Seculairsm in Desh?

Gas hydrates: An inexhaustible energy source
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/tod ... ef=archive

Haare is Old News. Maal is there around in Hindu Samundra equal to 14 Trillion Barrels of Oil. Research, Investement is the key to bring Satyug of Energy in india



Quote:
Chennai, July 17 Deep below the seabed is an infinite source of energy waiting to be tapped.India is sitting on prognosticated gas hydrate resources of 1,894 trillion cubic metres, which is over 1,700 times as much as the proven natural gas reserves with the country — of 1.08 trillion cubic metres.To put the resource into perspective, India consumes 90 million standard cubic metres a day of natural gas. If the estimate of prognosticated gas hydrate reserves holds true, the energy source is infinite and can last several tens of thousands of years.For sure, the way of getting natural gas from gas hydrates — frozen methane — is unknown to science as yet. But crack the challenge, you have solved the country’s energy problem.Of course, ‘prognosticated reserves’ is an educated guess, but still there is little doubt that gas hydrates as a source of energy is very, very big — something that can permanently solve India’s energy problem.Indeed, much of this has been known to the Indian hydrocarbon sector for a number of years. But the recent developments in the decade-old National Gas Hydrate Programme (NGHP), while being nowhere near breakthrough, are encouraging.The recent conclusion of the first phase of NGHP led to the discovery of gas hydrate occurrences near the Andamans and in the Krishna-Godavari and Mahanadhi basins.In December, the NGHP will start collecting more seismic data, drill a few more holes and collect more samples of the iced gas. The exercise will lead to a closer estimate of how much natural gas is available in the hydrates.The real challenge begins then. “Nowhere in the world does the technology (for extracting gas out of hydrates) exist,” says Mr V. K. Sibal, Director General Hydrocarbons (DGH). “But we are confident of developing the technology.”

[brihaspati]

^^The first salvo will be fired from within the gov -perhaps the environment ministry. All the existing "western" studies on climatologic effects of methane will be dusted out. There wil be grave estimates of accidental release, leaks, and environmental disasters.

[member_20317]

Environment ministry is indeed functioning like a foreign agent.

But seems like the release of gas hydrates is 'satanic' proposition from before these finds. Sometime back i saw on TV something to the effect that these Methane Hydrates are essentially forzen methane gas, stabalized by the very low temperatures and very high pressures.

Howsoever difficult the tech may be surely it cannot be more difficult then Nuke energy, at which we are reasonably good.

I suspect the first salvo will come in a different form. When once the techonolgy for extraction, storage and transportation has developed we will be told that we need to FDI to have it done faster. Which is just a way of saying 'Latinos had bananas you have gas'.

[D Roy]

gas hydrates and three stage nuclear program will happen within the next 20 years. Nothing can stop. Nothing can stop.

[RoyG]

How about energy from Ammonia? Currently India produces about 9% of world supply. All we have to do is expand the infra.

http://nh3fuelassociation.org/

[Prem]

gas hydrates and three stage nuclear program will happen within the next 20 years. Nothing can stop. Nothing can stop.

AFAIK, We need to collaborate with Japani to expedite the process. Russia and USA also have active programme to harvest the hydrates but Japani are much ahead. The Hydrate Harvesting Hides Heavenly Bliss and Weaponery to remove the veil of PSism and hell the haramis.

[vishvak]

It is imperative to use the latest tech of course. It would make tech process better.

It would also make avoid situations where hard earned money that is say paid to USA would be misused to say arm Pakistan, etc.

[brihaspati]

X-posting:

I guess, the reason there is so much a demand not to look at "history" so much - is because it helps us to start the chain of action and reaction - at a point convenient for us.

With all blame laid at Periyar and BT for "identity" politics, and BT for Bihari bashing - we set them up as isolated, self-started, parochials. No one here seems to be aware of the fact that identity politics of hating a neighbour for his language, and culture and demanding his expulsion from jobs and privileges - was started most prominently in Bihar [among at least two other provinces] - in the 1870's.

People can look up - how it was Bihari muslims who first started an anti-Bengali movement, was joined in and encouraged by Brits as the Bengalis were beginning to be seen as radical-anti-Brits, and finally Bihari hindus joined in. This whole movement was intensified throughout the increasing radicalism of Bengal and reached its height in the 1920's and 30s.

Has Bihar or the legacy of those anti-Bengali movements - ever acknowledged or apologized for their own "expulsion" drama? In a way theye were the pathfinders - ideologues and tacticians who taught Indian provincial elite by their example how successful could such an indigeneity movement become. Since the INC did not try to combat this trend at all in its "Hindi belt", and in fact a lot of what happened in the removal or change of INC top brass between 1908-1922 - by which the Bengali representation was progressively sidelined and the power base shifted to upper Gangetic and western India, the entire course of INC movement in the first half of 20th century - was aligned to this generic UP-based Islamic and local Hindu elite + tactical Brit collaboration line.

The very way in which INC movement shaped up in first half 20th century, was a matrix for continuation of identity politics and a hidden regionalism and linguistic parochialism. Parochialism was an easy way out for politicians - and once opportunism is introduced, we cannot blame seccessors or opponents from copying the method.

[brihaspati]

Even the very fact that Bihar did not exist before Turko-Afghan expansion in the GV - should be an important point. The very name Bihar came out in Islamic chronicles - since before that what we call Bengal today was the larger portion of Vanga that included large parts of modern Bihar within the Pala and Sena empire.

Ironically, the separate identity of Bihar came about because the Muslims failed to properly conquer large portions of modern Bengal and were confined mainly to dominance in modern Bihar region for at least a century or more (roughly 130 years). The Bengali-Bihar divide was primarily an Islamic-Hindu divide, with traditional Bengali showing signs of retaining greater influence of Sanskrit than the "Hindi" in Bihar.

Many of our identity divides of regionalims+language+culture originates from an inter-cultural contest, between "Hindu" and Islamic or Christian. As and when Islamism or Christianism triumphed militarily they shaped this identity conflict along their interests, and as and when "Hindu"s asserted - the reverse happened. What BT has manifested is part of this more than a thousand year conflict - and we should note, that it has always been a no-holds barred conflict. Just because our "professional historians" or social activists or political opportunists suppress this historical process, does not mean it never existed.

Looking back, the entire history of increasing INC domination in 20th century freedom movement - the whole was a step by step process of british imperialism shaping and allying with regionalist interests centred around northern UP, and that too conveniently based on a remnant Islamist core with allied/dhimmified Hindu elite networks - that could be persuaded to look at their own region as the centre - and all else of India as periphery. Linguistic divisions, not going for a revival of a simplified or modified Sanskrit/Praakrit - was playing along exatcly aligned to this Brit era alliance policy - so that the periphery remained a periphery.

[jambudvipa]

Bji, what does the word Bihar actually mean? and in which muslim chronicle is it first referred to?

[RajeshA]

Rajiv Malhotra has often mentioned that Bihar comes from Vihara - a place of learning, a Buddhist monastery. I am not sure, but probably Bukhara in Uzbekistan may have a similar etymology.

[brihaspati]

Tabaqat i Nasiri of Minhaj Siraj.

It is said by credible persons that he went to the gate of the fort of Behár with only two hundred horse, and began the war by taking the enemy unawares. In the service of Bakhtiyár there were two brothers of great intelligence. One of them was named Nizámu-d dín and the other Samsámu-d dín. The compiler of this book met Samsámu-d dín at Lakhnautí in the year 641 H. (1243 A.D.), and heard the following story from him. When Bakhtiyár reached the gate of the fort, and the fighting began, these two wise brothers were active in that army of heroes. Muhammad Bakhtiyár with great vigour and audacity rushed in at the gate of the fort and gained possession of the place. Great plunder fell into the hands of the victors. Most of the inhabi­tants of the place were Brahmans with shaven heads. They were put to death. Large numbers of books were found there, and when the Muhammadans saw them, they called for some persons to explain their contents, but all the men had been killed. It was discovered that the whole fort and city was a place of study (madrasa). In the Hindí language the word Behár (vihár) means a college.

When this conquest was achieved, Bakhtiyár returned laden with plunder, and came to Kutbu-d dín, who paid him much honour and respect. A body of the nobles of the Court looked upon the favours which Sultán Kutbu-d dín bestowed upon him, with jealousy. In their convivial parties they used to sneer at him, and to cast jibes and ironical observations at him. Their animosity reached to such a pitch that he was ordered to combat with an elephant at the White Palace. He struck it such a blow with his battle-axe on the trunk that it ran away, and he pursued it. On achieving this triumph, Sultán Kutbu-d dín be­stowed rich gifts upon him from his own royal treasure, and he also ordered his nobles to present to him such ample offerings as can scarcely be detailed. Muhammad Bakhtiyár in that very meeting scattered all those gifts and gave them away to the people. After receiving a robe from the Sultán he returned to Behár. Great fear of him prevailed in the minds of the infidels of the territories of Lakhnautí, Behár, Bang (Bengal), and Kámrúp.

The author was very nearly a contemporary of Bakhtyiar. He writes less of the ignominious defeat of Bakhtyar at the hand sof the north Bengal and Kamarupa kings, but Riyaz us Salatin - a much later history - is more sympathetioc to the Afghan-Hindu later collaboration, and portrays Bakhtyar as an opportunistic raider given to boasting [something shared by all Islamist heroes] who was trapped and defeated and "died of dysentery" on the field. Alternatives also suggest he was assassinated by his own subordinate. Islamic chroniclers usually try to remain completely silent about their defeats - you have to guess it from their silence on victories over large patches of time. There is a large silence of almost 130 years on Islamic victories from the death of Bakhtyar in the chronicles.

[brihaspati]

Note also - that most Islamist jihadis penetrated Hindu/Buddhist towns posing as traders, merchants or scholars. In small groups they would come as horse traders [so that they could bring in mounts], or scholars with "security". Using the mercantile cloak, or the practices of "welcoming the guest" among the non-Muslims, it would be easy to gain entrance and later on subvert or carry out pre-op intel.

University townships would be particularly vulnerable - because Buddhist ones would avoid military buildups or security.

[brihaspati]

RajeshA ji, you are correct - the modern consensus speculation is that "Bukhara" was derived from "Vihara". It had one of the largest university townships in CAR before Islamist. Samarqand, was another, and Gundishapur was another. According to some speculations even Nishapur in modern Iran was one.

[brihaspati]

Jamaat in BD is fighting street engagements. The police naturally are playing it soft - no sign of the ruthless brutality reserved for leftists, liberals, and non-overtly-Islamist demos. Another pointer as to how much the state machinery of BD is Islamist or islamist infested.

[member_20292]

can someone give me.one single article about how Buddhism disappeared from the land of its birth entirely?