Indian Interests

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2012 09:30

It is not individuals that have power in a state, but it is the positions they hold. So when a JJS says something, he is saying it as an individual or is it a positional view that makes him traitor or not.

If JJS have a right to voice his opinions, then others have a right to voice mine; same as you have yours.

If MMS says that he would do a 'no war pact' with Pakistan, is it the PM of India talking after taking all possibilities into view or is it MMS, the individual, saying it keeping his prejudices or legacy in view?

It is all fun to talk about legalities and even more fun to hide behind them. I will leave such fancies to the likes of Ram Jetmalanis who represent Dawood ibrahims, Kasabs and Afjal gurus in the name of duty of a lawyer and at the same time be a MP of a political party and talk about how Ram/Laxman are bad individuals and so on.

Just because an erudite write great poetry about shit, it doesn't stop smelling bad.

It is really getting to nonsensical levels when people threaten to sue the forum or reporting certain posters to authorities etc.,

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Nov 2012 10:27

brihaspati wrote: You are conflating two things together that should not be conflated.

As per law, you cannot talk of or propose to do - among other things - doing anything that jeopardizes the territorial integrity of India without such proposal being deeemed treason. Proposing giving territory away to a foreign nation is therefore potentially legally a treasonable act. If you note the language of my post - I have not mentioned the person.

Good you were careful, although a simple read of it did not leave any doubt on who the response was to. This is where things go in the grey area. Talking about sovereignty issues, which is covered by article 73 cannot be construed to be treason, without any application of contexts and reasonable proofs of a criminal act of high treason. Hence my position that these charges are not to be trifled around with. It is not just words, the context and intent makes all the difference. Talking about sovereignty issues (covered by free speech) does not amount to treason. Undermining soverignity does. Context and credibility come into play here behind expression of words.

To me it seems, it is you who is conflated between sovereignty discussions amounting to treason. It may not be so. Anyways on Siachen, I disagree with you that adjectives such as "ceding" or its synonyms have been used or considered, let alone in Parliament. This is not my understanding of the matter. I do not think sovereignty is impacted let alone treason coming into play.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Nov 2012 10:29

>>It is really getting to nonsensical levels when people threaten to sue the forum

People generally feel this way because they have no exposure. When you are "running" or responsible for a forum, as its financier or webmaster or whatever, when a threat like that is made, it has to be taken seriously. Consider this: if you started a forum on your own, would you be calling the PM a traitor on it? If yes, then perhaps you should start one, and those who feel like calling the PM a traitor can do so there.

General Observation: It is our experience that when people who have freely accused politicians, bureaucrats and others on BR started their own forums (or blogs), their language miraculously toned down and became remarkably restrained. Clearly direct vested interest moderates minds. Consider BR your own home, if you will. Don't crap on the doorstep. If you feel it absolutely necessary to do so, and it can always be justified... kindly start your own forums or blogs.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2012 10:42

JEM ji,

Perhaps it says about state of the state. You can delete my below post if it hurts the forum.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1359806

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Nov 2012 19:15

There have been various articles like this one openly advocating calling any indian who advocates withdrawing from Siachen as an anti-national. Who the author is targeting is very clear (the assorted track IIers including those who are ex military).Mind you the author was not targeting arm chair warriors but indeed people who have retired from military after dedicating their entire life for defending the country. How come the writer here and many others like him who have published similar articles have not been sued for libel?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Nov 2012 19:32

We live in Sibbalian era, the laws prohibiting free speech are draconian, yes, a lot of free speech exists, since people know that on the whole the UPA cant go after everyone -- yet the Govt through its actions such as against cartoonists (Aseem Trivedi -- even the Nutty Kaju was forced so say that it is extra-constitutional) and the recent case of Puducherry (its part of center) machinery cracking down a person making two tweets -- going against Chidambaram's son is fresh in everyone's memory.

That said -- it is still legality, of the worst sort -- almost saying that once a law (even if completely immoral) is made we must bow to the dictates of the law and not even have the freedom of dissent.

I can fully understand the caution from a webmaster worrying about emergency like crackdown on free thoughts in Indians -- but I can NOT understand posters who seem to revel in such repression, and make this the lynch pin of their argument -- to counter free thought.

Just sad.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2012 20:00

Free speech is free only as long as you are talking the side of the establishment.

It is silly that we call 15th August 1947 independence day. It is just another power transition day.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Nov 2012 21:04

ShauryaT ji,
I was not being "careful" as you insinuate. I made a point in emphasizing that any proposal to cede any territory to a foreign nation, even as part of an exchange - can be deemed a treasonable act. It appears you have gone through all the laws in IPC an elsewhere that are relevant.

So you must be aware of the clauses on - "to question", "dispute", "propose/raise - secession/ceding of territory" that therefore is talking of jeopardizing the existing/claimed territorial integrity of India [remember that the concerned laws have made it explicit since 1971 that territory is deemed all sovereign claimed territory and not simply what is under Indian occupation or under Indian admin]. As per the "amended" laws post 1971, proposing ceding territory to China does come under the treason laws.

In fact the very clause mentioned here in ref to the cartoon - is part of that same paragraph. This was originally instituted in connection to J&K, and was extended later to cover all of the sovereign territory of India. Portions of Indian sovereign territory occupied currently by foreign powers are included in the ambit by definition.

This legalistic stuff would not have come up if you had not insisted on the legalistic side in terms of defamation suit. I am aware that certain people have the proclivity to go for defamation suits more than others - since I was myself threatned once with "being vanished". Consulted legal luminaries in India and abroad who happen to be friends. My interpretation of the treason laws rest on both private as well as consulted professional understanding of the law.

Do remember also that the only escape route here about not doing something that threatens relations with a "freindly country" [if by condemning proposing ceding territory to China you are hurting relations with a "friendly nation"], then even the gov is treading a very thin line legally - for the status of any foreign nation that occupies part of your sovereign territory - as a "freindly nation" stands nullified. Hence the safeguards to such proposals as might seem to be applicable - may not again stand up in a court of law.

The legal status of any individual proposing such exchanges is dubious and potentially a treasonable act. There is one narrow escape route for the gov to do this - and that is proposing this through the constitutional mechanism, within parliament in session. In questions relating to sovereignty, the debate is open even within legal circles as to whether even parliament has the sole right to settle the question, and whether it can be challenged by any citizen at the SC, and the SC ruling is then final/binding or not.

PS: if we are that much into legalese - we should perhaps drop the term "treason", and replace them with sedition - a generic term not even used in the actual statements now. It might also help to look at who essentially defended the continuance of the sedition laws in the Parliament - albeit with amendments, and on what cases. These were fallouts from two infamous cases - one concerning Romesh Thapar and a certain publication which had published some highly critical pieces about JLN, an dthe other was against the RSS mouthpiece subjecting all "communal matters and topics related to Pakistan" to prior approval. Under pressure from internal as well as external critics - the then PM agreed to some amendments but defended continuance of the sedition laws.

I hope that very defense should also add to the legal weight of the sedition laws - no?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Nov 2012 21:38

““unlawful activity”, in relation to an individual or association, means any action taken by such individual or association (whether by committing an act or by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise),-
(i) which is intended, or supports any claim, to bring about, on any ground whatsoever, the cession of a part of the territory of India or the secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union, or which incites any individual or group of individuals to bring about such cession or secession; or
(ii) which disclaims, questions, disrupts or is intended to disrupt the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India; or
[...]

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2012 23:29

A source: http://lawcommissionofindia.nic.in/1-50/Report43.pdf

Since we in this forum often discuss strategies relating to international relationships and given the fact that some of the Indian territories are under forced occupation by our neighbors, it may be worthwhile the forum administrators spell out the boundaries of the discussions.

Is it ok to propose "solutions" that include ceding Indian territories to other nation states?

Is it ok to propose "solutions" that give undue advantage to certain sections of the society, while undermining the interests of another group?

Is it ok to question the motives of key decision makers including the PM and President of India?

And so on... This will help ensure that the forum discussions are under strict guidelines of Indian law.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 12 Nov 2012 18:13

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rajiv-gandhi-assassination-former-cbi-officer-questions-karunanidhi-s-role/1024291/0

A new book on the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case has alleged that no probe was conducted into the “abrupt cancellation” of DMK chief M Karunanidhi’s scheduled public meeting in Sriperumbudur on May 21, 1991 — the day when Rajiv was killed.

In the book, Conspiracy to Kill Rajiv Gandhi: From CBI Files, the author, K Ragothaman, who was CBI’s chief investigating officer in the case, says: “It was the talk of the town that all DMK men should not stir out on the late evening of that fateful day. This aspect was not inquired into at all. If any investigation would have been done, the person who had contacted the DMK leader and advised him not to go to the Sriperumbudur meeting... would have been unearthed.”
Ragothaman further claims that when he wanted to question Karunanidhi, then SIT chief D R Karthikeyan asked him not to “create such issues”, adding that “no worthwhile” investigation was carried out to probe the involvement of politicians “at the behest of the SIT chief”.
“When I collected the evidence about the cancellation of the meeting and brought it to the notice of the chief of SIT to question the DMK leader... I was told that part of investigation was done by him and that DGP Rangaswamy had requested the DMK leader to cancel the meeting... I was chided by the SIT chief not to create such issues... I kept quiet and later went through the affidavit of DGP B P Rangaswamy before the Justice Verma Commission. I found that there was no such statement,” he writes.
“To my surprise, when I was present at a hearing held by the Justice Jain commission of inquiry at Delhi, I heard the DMK leader deposing that he had to cancel the meeting at the request of the Governor of Tamil Nadu, Bhishma Narayan Singh,” he says, adding that Rangaswamy had stated in his affidavit that he had taken “all steps to provide arrangements for both the leaders at Sriperumbudur on May 21, 1991.”

Rubbishing the allegations, Karthikeyan told The Indian Express: “This is utter nonsense... to gain cheap publicity. All the evidence collected during the investigation was produced before the courts, which scrutinised it threadbare, praised and endorsed the investigation. It was also rated as a ‘model’ probe by Interpol. After 22 years, somebody is trying to sensationalise it.”

But Ragothaman countered that Karunanidhi’s public meeting had been planned in advance and advertisements were issued in local newspapers. “The meeting was abruptly cancelled on May 21, at around 11:30 am, when the DMK headquarters issued a telegram to its local office stating that it had been postponed. I traced the telegram and apprised the SIT chief about it but he didn’t permit me to investigate,” he told The Indian Express. The book also questions the role of former IB chief M K Narayanan, who is now the West Bengal Governor, alleging that a video taken at Rajiv’s Sriperumbudur meeting, which reportedly had pictures of the assassin (Dhanu), was not made available to the CBI team. It claims that the “assassin gang” was waiting in the “sterile” area for over two-and-a-half hours.

“The original video reached the IB chief M K Narayanan and that is why he referred to it in the note sent by him to the then PM... On the action taken report, the Government of India decided to conduct an investigation against M K Narayanan and others. Strangely, this case was registered in SIT CBI and later buried at the behest of the chief of SIT. Is it not obvious that M K Narayanan had suppressed vital piece of evidence found on record and was allowed to go scot free by the chief of SIT D R Karthikeyan?” says the book. Ragothaman further alleges that the then RAW chief G S Bajpai tried to ensure that the LTTE was not blamed for the assassination. “On the early morning of May 22, Prime Minister Chandrasekhar convened a meeting of CCPA, in which RAW chief G S Bajpai and IB director M K Narayanan were also present... It is reported that Subramaniam Swamy had said that it could be LTTE... the chief of RAW vehemently pleaded that it was not LTTE.”

According to the book, Bajpai told Chandrasekhar that “Kittu of LTTE was their mole”. “Kittu could never be a mole as he was the right-hand man of Prabhakaran. I only admire how Kittu was clever enough to keep the RAW chief as his mole,” it says.

Meanwhile, CBI officials claimed today that they had conducted a meticulous probe into the case and the question of alleged supression of evidence does not arise.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Nov 2012 22:30

RamaY wrote:It is really getting to nonsensical levels when people threaten to sue the forum

This is something that I have never understood. BRF is a place where people air their thoughts and opinions on the internet. In that aspect, it is no different from a social networking website. Can Facebook be sued if someone expresses their opinion that Mr. X is a traitor? If they say the same thing on a TV talk show, can the TV station be sued for slander? Newspapers, which are far more public than BRF, routine print disclaimers that any opinions expressed by a columnist are his/her own views and the newspaper itself is not responsible for it. I'm pretty sure BRF can have a similar disclaimer.

I am not saying that people should accuse government functionaries of being traitors without proof, but just that if someone does express their opinion that they think so-and-so is guilty of treason, they can hardly sue BRF for it.

Meanwhile, the person who originally started this unnecessary legal discussion seems to have succeeded in derailing the thread.

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Nov 2012 22:41

^ Well what will happen is our email ids (the ones used for registering) will be coughed up, that is why free email ids are not allowed for registration.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Nov 2012 01:13

A related article in Newsinsight

http://newsinsight.net/Stop,chief.aspx#page=page-1

The chief hurdle that General Singh faced in his appointment was a case of alleged human rights’ violation in 2001 in Anantnag in a place called Janglat Mandi. As a brigadier, he is supposed to have killed a beggar in a false encounter. A relatively unknown J and K NGO filed a PIL against him, which in turn became the basis for a second PIL in the Supreme Court against General Singh’s appointment as army chief, which was rejected. The Kashmir NGO, however, is pursuing its PIL in the state high court, and press reports allege a section of the army is trying to hush the matter in the interest of the chief.

There is new intelligence that suggests the army chief has allegedly pressed on Omar Abdullah to somehow bring the false encounter case to a closure. In return, General Bikram Singh has reportedly assured that the army will not oppose his demands on AFSPA as before. Except that a crucial army commander who has to author and initiate this changed line has refused, saying that any dilution of AFSPA will lead to a successful terrorists’ disruption of the 2014 general elections in the state, a key aim of Pakistan to internationalize the Kashmir issue all over again. General Bikram Singh has allegedly threatened the obdurate army commander with a transfer to a lesser command, but he remains unfazed. The army chief has now plans to get a supine army commander who will agree with his scheme to weaken and eventually remove AFSPA from Jammu and Kashmir.

All to save his skin.

General Bikram Singh has been bad news for the Indian Army from the start. That it would get so worse still comes as a surprise. Next you know he will signal a withdrawal from Siachen. This man must be stopped.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Nov 2012 04:18

http://post.jagran.com/envoys-from-20-a ... 1352439064
Envoys from 20 Arab countries meet Nitin Gadkari

New Delhi: Envoys from 20 Arab countries met BJP president Nitin Gadkari on Thursday to discuss his party's plan in the forthcoming Parliament session, it's agenda on the internal and external affairs if it comes to power, and relations with the Arab world and India's neighbours.
The diplomats led by Moroccan Ambassador Larbi Reffouh, who is the acting president of the Arab Group, met Gadkari at his residence here.
The meeting comes soon after the UK and the US reached out to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi and stated that if he applies for a visa it would be cleared as per the normal procedure.
These developments, which have taken place against the backdrop of Gujarat going to polls, could be indicative of a growing interest- and acceptance- in the right-wing party in the international community.The Arab Group met Gadkari to discuss the BJP's plans for the forthcoming winter session of Parliament that begins on November 22, as also the party's vision on the present internal situation in India.The grouping was also keen on knowing the BJP's internal and external affairs agenda in case it is voted to power in the next general elections.
The ambassadors also wanted to learn about the main Opposition's attitude on relations with the Arab World and India's neighbours.Envoys from Djibouti, Qatar, Bahrain, Somalia, the UAE, Palestine, Kuwait, Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Jordan, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, League of Arab States, Lebanon, Libya and Oman attended the programme, along with Reffouh.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Nov 2012 01:12

Massive diamond fetches record £13m at Christie's auction in GenevaFlawless stone the size of a strawberry originated in India's Golconda mine and was once owned by Austrian archduke

Chor Enjoying Loot.

A huge, internally flawless diamond from India's fabled Golconda mines was sold at auction in Geneva on Tuesday night for a record 20.35m Swiss francs (£13.5m), Christie's said.
The rare, colourless stone – weighing 76 carats and roughly the size of a large strawberry – once belonged to Archduke Joseph August of Austria (1872-1962), a prince of the Hungarian line of the Habsburgs.It fetched more than double the price paid for it at auction almost two decades ago."It is a world record price per carat for a colourless diamond," François Curiel, director of the international jewellery department at Christie's, said."The market is not on the best form at the moment. The sale tonight was almost flabbergasting.
He added that the buyer wished to remain anonymous, but revealed that the underbidder was Fred Mouawad, an international dealer with offices in Dubai and Geneva.The diamond was sold by American jeweller Black, Starr & Frost."My understanding is that this stone is going to a museum and it will probably be the centrepiece," said Alfredo Molina, chairman of Black, Starr & Frost.The diamond was the star lot at Christie's semi-annual jewellery sale in Geneva. The sale as a whole fetched £50m, with 290 of 348 lots sold.Historical diamonds originating in the Golconda mines, virtually exhausted by the 18th century, include the Koh-i-noor, now in the British crown jewels, and the blue Hope Diamond, part of the Smithsonian Institute in Washington DC, Christie's said."The Archduke Joseph Diamond is the finest and largest perfect Golconda diamond ever to appear at auction," Rahul Kadakia of Christie's said.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 15 Nov 2012 01:23

Another diamond that was stolen was the Orlov diamond (not to be confused with the Black Orlov diamond which was stolen from a temple in Puducherry). It was stolen from the Ranganathaswamy temple in Srirangam by a French soldier who pretended to be a bhakta. He then fled to the protection of the British army and sold it.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Nov 2012 01:44

Khlas post

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Nov 2012 01:44

India: The next university superpower
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12597815

India has ambitious plans to increase graduate numbers in a way which would give it the size and status of an education superpower.The figures are staggering. India's government speaks of increasing the proportion of young people going to university from 12% at present to 30% by 2025 - approaching the levels of many Western countries.It wants to expand its university system to meet the aspirations of a growing middle class, to widen access, and become a "knowledge powerhouse".It will mean increasing the country's student population from 12 million to over 30 million, and will put it on course to becoming one of the world's largest education systems. "We will very likely be number two if not number one in terms of numbers," says Pawan Agarwal, a former civil servant and author of Indian Higher Education: Envisioning the Future.With US enrolment stagnating and the UK cutting back on university places, "Indian graduates will become more visible globally, particularly in technical and engineering fields", Mr Agarwal predicts.
'Great leap forward'
KN Panikkar, vice chairman of the Kerala State Higher Education Council, describes India's higher education spending as undergoing a "great leap forward".The amount of money in the central budget for higher education in the current five year plan (2010-2015) is nine times the amount of the previous five years. But there is a steep hill to climb. India's National Knowledge Commission estimated the country needs 1,500 universities compared to around 370 now. Hundreds of new institutions are being set up, including large new public universities in each state. The number of prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) and Management (IIMs) are being expanded from seven to 15. India's private university sector is also growing rapidly, particularly in professional education in information technology, engineering, medicine and management where there is huge demand from the burgeoning middle classes. But that will not be enough. To bridge the gap the government last year tabled legislation to invite foreign universities to set up branch campuses. The Foreign Providers Bill is currently making its way through parliament.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Nov 2012 08:02

Views from the Left (Left??

)

China’s ghost

Both Sangh Parivar journals discuss the resolutions passed at the RSS Karyakari Mandal meeting in Chennai earlier this month. One of the resolutions concerned the recent violence in Assam, which called upon the government to “boot out infiltrators”. The second resolution reflected the Sangh Parivar’s caution against “Chinese shenanigans”.

The 50th anniversary of the 1962 War provoked the RSS to take up a resolution on China. The resolution expressed its “regret” that “the government is engaged only in legalising the LAC in the name of border talks” with China. Terming it “unfortunate” that governments have “refused to declassify key documents like the Henderson Brooks-P.S. Bhagat report”, the resolution demanded the report be immediately declassified.

Referring to China’s strategic upgrade of its infrastructure along its border with India, the resolution reminded the government about “the enhanced threats from the aggressive manoeuvres of China” and demanded that the government should “invest adequately in border management and security preparedness” to thwart future threats. “It (government) should learn the lessons from the 1962 experience and give highest priority to developing a comprehensive national security policy vis-a-vis China,” the resolution concluded.

Vortex of scandals

Organiser reported the allegations levelled by Janata Party chief Subramanian Swamy against Congress president Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi, regarding their business deals with the company that owned the now-defunct National Herald newspaper. Allegations against BJP president Nitin Gadkari, however, did not appear.

The cover story in Organiser claims that the “greedy Sonia parivar in the vortex of scandals” has been revealed. It declares that the Congress “party fund (was) siphoned off to grab defunct National Herald property”. Another report explains “why Robert Vadra’s shenanigans are perfect for a full-fledged investigation”.

Lauding Swamy for striking at “the heart of the Congress empire”, the report criticises the Congress, pointing out that Rahul Gandhi’s “bluster” to take legal action against Swamy remained a non-starter because “despite huffing and puffing, the Congress has not yet dared to sue Swamy”.

“Off course it would only be wishful thinking that the Congress-led UPA government would initiate any probe into the matter. No probe was initiated against Sonia’s son-in-law, Robert Vadra for his dubious deals with DLF,” says Organiser.

Walmart Hand

The Congress rally in Delhi’s Ramlila Maidan has come in for criticism from Organiser. Its editorial, “Congress has haath, Walmart ke saath”, sought to paint the party in a poor light by highlighting that it organised the rally “to drum up support for Walmart, Carrefour and Tesco from the very spot where Gandhiji had given several calls to oust the foreigners”.

The editorial was also critical of Rahul Gandhi for demanding the BJP’s support for FDI in retail in “exchange for the support Congress extended to the BJP during the Kargil war”. The editorial says “Rahul Gandhi spoke with a dynastic proprietorial slant in his voice” and his demand for the BJP’s support on FDI in retail was “immature”.

Compiled by Ravish Tiwari

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Nov 2012 10:42

Jhujar wrote:India: The next university superpower
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12597815

India has ambitious plans to increase graduate numbers in a way which would give it the size and status of an education superpower.The figures are staggering. India's government speaks of increasing the proportion of young people going to university from 12% at present to 30% by 2025 - approaching the levels of many Western countries.It wants to expand its university system to meet the aspirations of a growing middle class, to widen access, and become a "knowledge powerhouse".It will mean increasing the country's student population from 12 million to over 30 million, and will put it on course to becoming one of the world's largest education systems. "We will very likely be number two if not number one in terms of numbers," says Pawan Agarwal, a former civil servant and author of Indian Higher Education: Envisioning the Future.With US enrolment stagnating and the UK cutting back on university places, "Indian graduates will become more visible globally, particularly in technical and engineering fields", Mr Agarwal predicts.
'Great leap forward'
KN Panikkar, vice chairman of the Kerala State Higher Education Council, describes India's higher education spending as undergoing a "great leap forward".The amount of money in the central budget for higher education in the current five year plan (2010-2015) is nine times the amount of the previous five years. But there is a steep hill to climb. India's National Knowledge Commission estimated the country needs 1,500 universities compared to around 370 now. Hundreds of new institutions are being set up, including large new public universities in each state. The number of prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) and Management (IIMs) are being expanded from seven to 15. India's private university sector is also growing rapidly, particularly in professional education in information technology, engineering, medicine and management where there is huge demand from the burgeoning middle classes. But that will not be enough. To bridge the gap the government last year tabled legislation to invite foreign universities to set up branch campuses. The Foreign Providers Bill is currently making its way through parliament.

Numbers don't really matter. It's the quality. Most of the degrees people get are worthless. We need to open up the economy and create a large manufacturing base in the country. We need a competitive university system focused on cutting edge research. Much of the training for most jobs out there can be done by the private sector, apprenticeship, and trade schools.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Nov 2012 12:33

Surasena wrote:Another diamond that was stolen was the Orlov diamond (not to be confused with the Black Orlov diamond which was stolen from a temple in Puducherry). It was stolen from the Ranganathaswamy temple in Srirangam by a French soldier who pretended to be a bhakta. He then fled to the protection of the British army and sold it.

Is this a reason why temples don't allow non hindus and foreigners?

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 15 Nov 2012 15:54

RoyG wrote:Numbers don't really matter. It's the quality. Most of the degrees people get are worthless. We need to open up the economy and create a large manufacturing base in the country. We need a competitive university system focused on cutting edge research. Much of the training for most jobs out there can be done by the private sector, apprenticeship, and trade schools.

True, and actually the plan seems to be to do a lot of this expansion via PPP as well as industry apprenticeships.

Budget 2012-13: Education Highlights

In his Budget speech, the finance minister said: "In the 12th Plan, 6,000 schools have been proposed to be set-up at block level as model schools to benchmark excellence. Of these, 2,500 will be set up under public-private-partnership (PPP)."

Constant feedback also from captains of industry based on their needs.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 17 Nov 2012 08:27

Aditya_V wrote:
Is this a reason why temples don't allow non hindus and foreigners?

It's part of the reason, a friend of mine has talked to the pujaris at the Ranganatha Swami temple about foreigners and temple entry. The pujaris related the story of the diamond to him and said that ever since that happened they have become more distrustful of foreigners.

Everywhere you go in India you will find ruins of temples destroyed and looted by Christians and Muslims, so its not very surprising that they are unwelcome in temples. Look at those crypto Xtian employees in Tirumala caught trying to proselytize among the bhaktas just recently.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Nov 2012 11:13

KC Pant is no more. He was those few who served Indian Interests at cost of sometimes personal ones.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Nov 2012 13:14

Carl wrote:<SNIP>True, and actually the plan seems to be to do a lot of this expansion via PPP as well as industry apprenticeships.

Budget 2012-13: Education Highlights
In his Budget speech, the finance minister said: "In the 12th Plan, 6,000 schools have been proposed to be set-up at block level as model schools to benchmark excellence. Of these, 2,500 will be set up under public-private-partnership (PPP)."
Constant feedback also from captains of industry based on their needs.

Hmmm....I have come across this.

And this is typical of all the harebrained ideas of the GOI. The most fundamental flaw - the affiliation norms of CBSE mandate that the school be run by a trust or a Section 25 Company - basically, non-profit organization. So, in a PPP structure, why will a company put in capital and time if it cannot make money for its promoters and shareholders? Even if a trust partners with the GOI in PPP venture of this kind, it will have to resort to accounting jugglery to take money out of the system - as is presently done by almost everyone in the K-12 domain. Doing this in a PPP Contract with sh1t-load of binding clauses would be extremely difficult.

This seems like a non-starter from day one.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2012 16:40

Thats what the UPA is good at, good politicians but bad adminstrators. they can win elections but cannot develop a nation. the more illitrate, poor and easily buyable votes are better for them

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 17 Nov 2012 18:44

BBC news:
Bal Thackeray, Hindu leader and Shiv Sena founder, dies

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2012 18:45

JE Menon wrote:>>It is really getting to nonsensical levels when people threaten to sue the forum

People generally feel this way because they have no exposure. When you are "running" or responsible for a forum, as its financier or webmaster or whatever, when a threat like that is made, it has to be taken seriously. Consider this: if you started a forum on your own, would you be calling the PM a traitor on it? If yes, then perhaps you should start one, and those who feel like calling the PM a traitor can do so there.

General Observation: It is our experience that when people who have freely accused politicians, bureaucrats and others on BR started their own forums (or blogs), their language miraculously toned down and became remarkably restrained. Clearly direct vested interest moderates minds. Consider BR your own home, if you will. Don't crap on the doorstep. If you feel it absolutely necessary to do so, and it can always be justified... kindly start your own forums or blogs.

+1

When you family and finances are threatened everybody sees the light why certain statements should not be made, non predators have no danger to finances when posting on BR. Freedom and quality at BR is top notch.

I for one will not call what I think of some of leaders on a public road or even challange a group of rowdies in Sumo or a group of 7-10 Bikers driving rashly on the streets. the risks of physical injury when outnumbered by these is too dangerous and makes me think discretion is the better part of valour or in other words a coward.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Nov 2012 10:06

The Hindu

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... epage=true

It is not possible to mirror the horrendous trials and tribulations as well as humiliations that thousands of Indian Chinese faced during the Sino-Indian war of 1962. The war unleashed a chain of events that compelled the Chinese society living in Assam to come face-to-face with an unfortunate situation. Their very own people discarded them only because of their Chinese origin.

In the Makum area, they were picked up and packed into a cowshed, from where they were taken to the Dibrugarh jail. In other parts they were arrested and brought to the police station and put in jails. They were then asked to board a closed train, which took them to the Deoli internment camp in Rajasthan. It was a long, seven-day journey of utter suffering. Infants, pregnant women, the old and the sick were also arrested and sent to the camp, violating all human rights.

After some time the Government of India decided to deport the interned back to China in a few batches. In this process, the already divided families were divided again as the government selected the names randomly. The majority of them were deported to China. Many Indian wives also accompanied their husbands to China with their children. The interned people who were allowed to return to their places after a couple of years again faced a difficult situation. The property of most of the people had been auctioned as enemy property. There was no society and no government to support them. They were compelled to live in sheer misery and isolation. Most of them did not get to meet their deported family members ever again.

I went to Makum and visited the places where these people lived and worked. I also interviewed many deportees who were living in different parts of the world – whose eyes were never dry, whose grief never diminished.

The deportees harbour a wish in the deepest corner of their hearts to visit at least once the place where they spent their youth and also to meet their relatives and friends whom they left behind. Though they live in some other part of the world, India is still their birthplace. They call Assam their janam-jagah, their birthplace, which they want to visit at least once before they die. They still speak the Indian language; sing Hindi and Assamese songs, drink milk tea — they celebrate their memories, and their agonies too.

(Dr. Rita Chowdhury is the author of Makam, an Assamese novel on the plight of Assamese people of Chinese origin)

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Nov 2012 10:14

Another Feature in The Hindu on 1962 China-India War

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 106419.ece
The dark shadow of war hurt many within China

India received reports of several Kashmiri Muslims having been placed under arrest in Tibet and their property confiscated. Another 1960 note also expressed concern at a “mass gathering” held in Lhasa’s Athletic Stadium where Chinese and Ladakhi Muslim prisoners were “made to face the crowd hand-cuffed and with heads bent.” Three Kashmiri Muslims were given prison terms ranging from 11 to 15 years, charged with the “incitement of Ladakhi Muslims to claim a foreign nationality.”

In a July 1960 note, India said it had “received a stream of messages from Lhasa about acts of terror and intimidation and indiscriminate arrests of Kashmiri Muslims to abandon their claim to Indian nationality.” “According to our information, Kashmiris are being called every day to the area offices, subjected to severe abuse and then admonished to line up with other Tibetans and attend indoctrination meetings… It is reported that the beating lasted from five to six hours and was administered through the Tibetans. A leading member of the community, Barkat Ullah Shahkali, was beaten with fists, and [he] bled profusely. He and another Kashmiri Muslim called Ibrahim were not only beaten up badly but were threatened with rifles aimed at them…”

This was a fate that, no doubt, befell thousands of intellectuals during Mao’s campaigns; but in many cases, their links to India perhaps further damned them. One Chinese engineer and scientist, who spent a few years in Ranchi and did not want to be identified, was imprisoned for being “an Indian spy” for five years during the Cultural Revolution. “And it was only because I spoke good English!” he said.

Dr. Sen remembered one scholar who would come and visit him every week at Peking University. “One day,” he said, “he stopped coming.” Thrown out of the university, the scholars were made to work as construction workers and bathroom cleaners. One of them, Dr. Sen discovered some 20 years later, would take his own lif

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Nov 2012 10:20

A psyche shaped by conflict

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/oth ... 106426.ece

For the Chinese community living in Kolkata — the largest settlement of people from China in India — the year 1962, when hostilities broke out along the India-China border, was the first time they felt “unwanted” here.

“The Chinese community seemed to be carving a niche for itself in Calcutta. If not for a great disruption which threw the members completely off keel, the face of the Chinese community would have been very different ,” writes academic Jennifer Liang in her paper Calcutta Chinese – An Oral History.

The loss of faith in the Indian state, which barely acknowledges the internment of the Chinese in India during the war, coupled with other legislation that hurt their economic interests, prompted yet another wave of migration of the community — this time away from the city. According to estimates, the population of ethnic Chinese in the city has declined from about 20,000 to 4,000 today.

From 1780, the first official record of Chinese settlers in Calcutta , the economic migration to India was always meant to be temporary......

......
............

The frustrated Mr. Chung shot off a letter to Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri and obtained his permit in 10 days. In the prevailing atmosphere , relations between the reclusive Chinese community and the native population were also affected.

Mr. Chung and 60 others residents of Chinatown lost their jobs overnight following a disagreement with the factory’s trade union.

“Before 1962, the Government of India treated the Chinese as ordinary citizens. After 1962, they tightened the belt and the young could not stand it; they wanted to leave,” said Mr. Chung, who himself went back to school to study further and stayed on to retire as the assistant principal of the school.

The fallout of the 1962 conflict for the Chinese Community in India — the internment in the Deoli camp, the deportations, the restrictions on movement, the jobs, shops and homes lost — remained a subject that they did not speak out about. But the events shaped the psyche of the community and there remains a latent fear of a reprisal, should there be another armed conflict.

“Did the Government of India prove a single person to be a Chinese spy? But you [the Indian government] harassed thousands of people for years and never even apologised. If you do not acknowledge our suffering, the community shall always harbour the feeling that you do not want us or understand us,” Mr. Chung said.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Nov 2012 10:32

Two days before the 50th anniversary of the official start of War by China against India, deeply ingrained humiliating defeat on the Indian psyche, The Hindu choose to wear bleeding heart on their sleeve. War is a terrible affair for all those involved. The greatest tragedy of war was Panchasheel. And the biggest gain by Indian State was the loss of innocence and coming of the age. Overnight Indian State understood the meaning of International Relations and Diplomacy. It is another matter that we are yet to practice it with finesse and still remain in the learning stage.
Perhaps they should have shed a tear for the Brave Indian Soldiers who gave their life to our future.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Nov 2012 17:36

Who can be said to be a national leader?

1. Vajpayee ----- Never won a state for BJP, only remained dilli-billi MP
2. Sharad Pawar --------- Known as maharashtra strongman
3. Lalu Yadav -------remains known as ex-bihar CM, winning on yadav+muslim votebank*
4. Mulayam Yadav-------remains known as ex-UP CM, winning on yadav+muslim votebank
5. Mayawati-------ex-UP chief minister, who is standing up cadre in other states too.....
6. Modi--------Gujarat CM for last 1 decade
7. Nitish Kumar----------Bihar CM
8. Achyutanandan--------Ex-Kerala CM
9. Mamta Banerjee------Bengal CM + ex-rail mantri
10. Periyar-------- Thinker & starter of Dravid movement, remained postless like Thakre
11. Karunanidhi----------ex-CM of TN
12. MGR--------Ex-CM TN, who kept power away from Karunanidhi as long as he lived.
13. N T Ramarao-----------Rooted out Congress from AP and remained CM for many years.
14. Narsimha Rao------like Vajpayee but was in Cabinet for many years.
15. Naidu----------lost the legacy of NTR to reddy.
16. Advani--------again a dilli-billi
17. Jaylalita----Current CM of TN
18. Naveen Patnaik------Current CM of Orissa
19. Buddha Deb Bhattacharya-----Ex-CM of Bengal.

Now who amongst these can be called a national leader? Is being a minister in central cabinet the criteria? Or winning a state and being its CM for many years?
How is a national leader defined?

Oops I forgot to add the comment for STAR
* At least on two occasions I have heard Lalu say during his speeches in Lok Sabha "I belong to a cast which never lies" but nobody protested!

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 19 Nov 2012 17:46

Manishji, did you by mistake or intentionally forget the current strongest national leader? Sonia Gandhi is the tallest national leader. Her proven capability to generate votes from different parts of India is unmatched. I am not a SG supporter, but her reach is much farther than any other leader alive. In my ranking,

1.SG
2.LKA comes a distant second,

NM is a highly regarded leader but his vote-pulling-power is not yet demonstrated nation-wide.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 19 Nov 2012 17:51

Manish_Sharma wrote:Now who amongst these can be called a national leader? Is being a minister in central cabinet the criteria? Or winning a state and being its CM for many years?
How is a national leader defined?

Thanks, manish ji.. I wanted to write on this, but the uber-secular mods locked the thread..

Those who were ranting about "national leader"..

Who is national leader?

one who is known nationally?
One who contributes to furthering a cause of nation/rashtra?

My village surpanch is a very good surpanch. He does his job perfectly, without taking bribes and without allowing others to take bribe. Develops my native village earnestly. All records are clean and crime is low, most of houses have toilets, so people do not need to go in fields. He thinks of India's welfare in his heart while doing his job in his sphere of work. He is contributing to national cause. He is not known to people in adjoining districts from his village.

Can he be called national leader?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Nov 2012 17:51

Without a national language, say Sanskrit, one will never see someone with a truly nation-wide appeal! A leader needs to be able to inspire a people, speaking directly to their hearts. That is simply not possible with the current language model.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 19 Nov 2012 17:54

prahaar wrote:NM is a highly regarded leader but his vote-pulling-power is not yet demonstrated nation-wide.

NM is local leader only.. what has he done to people outside GJ, hain ji?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Nov 2012 18:09

prahaar wrote:Manishji, did you by mistake or intentionally forget the current strongest national leader? Sonia Gandhi is the tallest national leader. Her proven capability to generate votes from different parts of India is unmatched. I am not a SG supporter, but her reach is much farther than any other leader alive. In my ranking,

1.SG
2.LKA comes a distant second,

NM is a highly regarded leader but his vote-pulling-power is not yet demonstrated nation-wide.

Prahaar ji, its my personal hatred for die-nasty that a didn't take her name.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Nov 2012 18:14

Yes Atri ji, I had written this post on notepad first and went to copy-paste in BT thread only to find it locked so posted this here!