Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

[Surya]

how many other companies did the mallyas siphon money off into

[vivek_v]

simple question -- flying the same a/c, same routes, same bands of staff pay, why did Kingfisher crater while Jet/Indigo/Spicejet are supposedly healthy?

That's a really good question. I think Kingfisher started off with ideas of pampering customers with individual TVs and free meals. They also put a lot of emphasis on their stewardess training programs and probably paid staff a bit better than other airlines. So their cost structure was probably a bit higher.

However, I don't see how those things would lead to thousands of crores of additional expenses. There must be other large factors that caused it to be so under water.

This is a very good query. I used to take Kingfisher frequently in my Domestic strips and i did not find anything which should have made the cost of operations this high to cause the company to go under when compared to others.

For example the the only differences i saw was that a baggage attender would take the luggage from you and scan it when you enter the airport. Probably more 'please' and 'thank you ' in the check-in counter and in flight they did give espresso coffee (not sure if they do it now) and the TV is a small LCD screen what one would find in any international flights , plus snacks/meals depending on the time and duration of the flight. None of this should cause this much of a difference to cause loses of thousands of cores. Note that while normal Chennai-Hyderabad used to cost Rs:3000 to Rs:4000 for a normal low-cost carrier , kingfisher used to cost around Rs:6000 to Rs:8000 and hence these stuff should have made any loss per se when compared to others. Also none of these were available in Kingfisher Light (the Air-deccan part) and except the paint there was no change even in the aircraft or the people for the most part. From what i saw occupancy was also not bad (or) at-least comparable to Indigo and Spice jet in the same routes traveling more or less in the same time (but in different days).

Do note that i personally found these 'extra' services offered by kingfisher was lesser when compared to the erstwhile Paramount airways and almost equivalent to Indian Airlines. Hence why they should lose so much money when compared to others is still a mystery to me. Probably some aviation gurus in BR can answer more clearly on why they lost so much money.

[Singha]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingfisher ... ial_crisis

read the debt recast and recast pledge sections - all the 18 lenders got saddled with some worthless pledges of future valuable preferred stocks and the recast pledge is even more hilarious - with some "brand valuation" being done by one grant thornton and 4000cr loans based off that!!

I think in america or any country with a somewhat rule of law, a lot of people might be under investigation for what transpired including on the financial lenders side.

here the big boys use the banks as piggy banks to bankroll their dreams and with no fallout because they are too well connected.

just for collecting service taxes from pax and not depositing them with the income tax dept, they could be placed on a hook cant they ?

[Kannan]

what is the problem ? is it lack of nav aids in all the three major Kerala airports or lack of pilots trained upto Cat3x levels?

Getting qualified and being current for CAT III operations is really not a big step after getting an ATP and being entrusted to a multimillion dollar jet. The airport was below the minima for the intended approach (ILS 27) so the flight had to divert to its alternate. Happens all the time.

[Sachin]

Kannan,
Guess you do are from the airlines industry, or have good information on it. With regards to the recent incident at Thiruvananthapuram, can you throw some more light on..
1. The rules related to the flying hours of the pilots. That is how much is the mandated rest hours, and what is the working hours? And how long can a pilot fly the plane in a kind of "over time" mode. Even the railways have a very strict rule on this (6 hours driving time+2 extra hours, which can become 4 hours as a worst case scenario).
2. Rules related to flight safety and unauthorised personnel entering restricted areas like the cockpit.

The Malayalam vernacular media, as well as social networking media (Facebook) have started their usual rhetoric. The "over-paid, rich, corrupt" Air India and their staff, harassing "poor, ill-paid, migrant labour" passengers from the Middle East. Air India, and Indian Airlines are not know for their customer friendliness and service quality, but I feel in this case there was another story as well.

[sum]

The world seems full of weirdos:
CA gets life term for mid-air hijack scare in 2009

According to the police, Mohla had entered into the cockpit on February 1, 2009 and had sparked panic by claiming that he had hijacked the plane. Mohla had also warned the crewmembers that he was one of the accused in the infamous Kandahar hijacking of an Indian Airlines plane in 1999 and was carrying needles with which he would "infect" others if they resisted him, it had said.
Click here!

The crewmembers and some passengers, however, had overpowered Mohla and he was arrested the next day.

Police had said Mohla's behaviour had forced the Indigo pilot to send a hijack alert, leading to a scare and panic at the Indira Gandhi [ Images ] International airport in New Delhi.

The plane had made an emergency landing and was kept in isolation for two and a half hours after it was confirmed that the landing took place due to unruly behaviour of Mohla.

The court, in its judgment convicting 45-year-old Mohla, had said he had intimidated the crewmembers by claiming to be an official of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation. It had also said that Mohla was aware that his "terrifying act" would have endangered the safety of the 160 passengers and the crewmembers on board.

The court, in its judgment, had said every person on board a flight should observed certain "standards of behaviour" as per the norms laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation and the DGCA as India [ Images ] is a signatory to the Montreal Convention.

[member_23677]

The world seems full of weirdos:
CA gets life term for mid-air hijack scare in 2009

According to the police, Mohla had entered into the cockpit on February 1, 2009 and had sparked panic by claiming that he had hijacked the plane. Mohla had also warned the crewmembers that he was one of the accused in the infamous Kandahar hijacking of an Indian Airlines plane in 1999 and was carrying needles with which he would "infect" others if they resisted him, it had said.
Click here!

The crewmembers and some passengers, however, had overpowered Mohla and he was arrested the next day.

Police had said Mohla's behaviour had forced the Indigo pilot to send a hijack alert, leading to a scare and panic at the Indira Gandhi [ Images ] International airport in New Delhi.

The plane had made an emergency landing and was kept in isolation for two and a half hours after it was confirmed that the landing took place due to unruly behaviour of Mohla.

The court, in its judgment convicting 45-year-old Mohla, had said he had intimidated the crewmembers by claiming to be an official of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation. It had also said that Mohla was aware that his "terrifying act" would have endangered the safety of the 160 passengers and the crewmembers on board.

The court, in its judgment, had said every person on board a flight should observed certain "standards of behaviour" as per the norms laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation and the DGCA as India [ Images ] is a signatory to the Montreal Convention.

I'm happy that the moron got his full deserved punishment. Idiots like him shouldn't live in the society... a few years in jail and all the masti would come down automatically

[Kannan]

Kannan,
Guess you do are from the airlines industry, or have good information on it. With regards to the recent incident at Thiruvananthapuram, can you throw some more light on..
1. The rules related to the flying hours of the pilots. That is how much is the mandated rest hours, and what is the working hours? And how long can a pilot fly the plane in a kind of "over time" mode. Even the railways have a very strict rule on this (6 hours driving time+2 extra hours, which can become 4 hours as a worst case scenario).
2. Rules related to flight safety and unauthorised personnel entering restricted areas like the cockpit.

The Malayalam vernacular media, as well as social networking media (Facebook) have started their usual rhetoric. The "over-paid, rich, corrupt" Air India and their staff, harassing "poor, ill-paid, migrant labour" passengers from the Middle East. Air India, and Indian Airlines are not know for their customer friendliness and service quality, but I feel in this case there was another story as well.

I don't work for an airline but I am a pilot and I get to mingle with airline/cargo pilots fairly frequently at the airport I wanted to take a shot at joining the IAF but that didn't happen so I keep it my side project in case I get the hours needed to fly for an airline. That said, I've never flown a jet aircraft so I couldn't be too insightful about that, but approaches, airport regs etc. are pretty much the same otherwise.

1 - I think you can write entire novels on crew rest regulations and how airlines get around them. The problem isn't as much of how overworked they are, but if you give the rest in crappy times i.e split apart a lot or tell a crew to sleep while it is daytime at their destination, you push the boundaries of human capacity, and no matter how much they're paid. However, they are very very very very strict about duty hours. If it means turning back from destination, it must be done because short of an emergency there are huge fines. It's very understandable that the pilot had to leave her spot, and not unheard of that she felt threatened and tripped the hijack alert.

2 - When I was a kid I asked to see the cockpit, and was invited back to fly jumpseat for landing into London on a British Airways. Different times American rules are no entry for non-crew, and they have classified (even airlines) procedures on flight attendants taking a flight crew's spot while he goes to the bathroom, etc. but I think in these times on US flights you can expect to be jumped by the passengers and air marshals if you tried to get in, if not shot by an armed pilot The only significant difference between India vs FAA is that the Federal Air Marshal program arms programs who undergo the training.

3- Supply/demand - pilots in India/China, especially expats, are paid filthy amounts of money. If you work in China on a 6 week on/2 week off schedule flying a narrow body jet (A320/B737) you can make upwards of 120k USD annually. In the US my friends who start with the regional airlines start at around 17-22k USD Big difference. The reality is Indian pilots are spoiled and very highly paid, and since you can't fill all the spots with experienced military or veterans who have inched their way to their position, there is quite a big contingent I feel of young guns who have more money, connections and booze experience than flight hours.

That's not to say they're all lousy, but I would've liked to work for Air India levels of money and from my experience it's hard to get noticed without some connection. If you're 2x years old and getting paid well to be captain of a jet with a uniform to prove it, you probably have all kinds of temptation that a starving US First Officer on a regional jet has, living in his parents basement and making less than the guy at McDonalds

[Bade]

Wow ! $17-22 K is well below even a poorly paid post-doc in the sciences, almost bordering on graduate student salary for a 20hr/week Research Assistant these days. Why would anyone want to do such a stressful job for such a low pay in the US.

[nachiket]

17-22k in the US is like living under the poverty line in India! I never knew the conditions were so bad. First time I had heard of low salaries for regional airline pilots was while watching the Air Crash Investigations episode on the 2009 Buffalo air crash. At the time I believed they were exaggerating.

[Kannan]

Wow ! $17-22 K is well below even a poorly paid post-doc in the sciences, almost bordering on graduate student salary for a 20hr/week Research Assistant these days. Why would anyone want to do such a stressful job for such a low pay in the US.

Funny you mention academia - some people graduate with a science degree and earn $40-60k out the door. Others work as underpaid graduate students for five years so they can get underpaid postdocs for five more years so maybe someday they can become a professor - the pyramid system works

My two friends currently with regionals live with their parents, and get a network of pilots to share apartments i.e "crash pads" at airports they frequent so they don't sleep on the plane's floor, etc. One has been with the airline for two years and has enough seniority to pick his schedule a bit, when he's on call and on reserve, etc. while the other is largely on call 24/7 as much as they can squeeze out of him without breaking crew rest laws because it is his first year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

Safe to say, when Air India pilots go on hunger strike, it's actually pretty ridiculous because they are living the dream.

[Dileep]

Question: Is the pilot mandatoryly required to leave the aircraft (that is on the ground) when her duty hours are over?

Let me explain on the background of the TRV incident. The plane is on ground at 6:00am. Pilot's duty hours run out at 8:30. Is the pilot required to leave the cockpit of the aircraft on ground at 8:30, or face penalties?

[chetak]

Is the DDM improving? Gradually, we are beginning to see names and other details, reporting of which is a (self imposed?) taboo


Mid-air scare: Man turns violent on Mumbai-Delhi flight, raises Islamic slogans

NEW DELHI: In what was described by a frequent flyer as the "scariest flight of his life", a passenger on board a Mumbai-Delhi IndiGo flight suddenly turned violent mid-air on Wednesday and started raising Islamic slogans while threatening to harm the aircraft. The situation turned so alarming that the cabin crew and passengers pinned down the flyer, Mursalim Shaikh, 41, and blocked the aisle with a food trolley to prevent him from making a dash for the cockpit.

The IndiGo flight 6E 196 made a quick descent in Delhi after seeking priority landing, where Shaikh, a used car dealer from Babu Tansen Chawl in Virar, was handed over to security agencies.

[Sachin]

Hijack drama: AI pilot stands by her version .
During a two-hour questioning on Wednesday, the woman pilot told a special investigation team headed by Assistant Commissioner KS Vimal that three passengers had barged into the cockpit while three others stood outside supporting them.

The woman pilot also told the police that she had flown for 11 hours on the day of the incident and that she landed the plane at Thiruvananthapuram after informing Air India and Air Traffic Control. She complained to the police that she was still receiving threats through e-mails in connection with the October 19 incident.

Compelled to act as hijack like situation prevailed: AI pilot
The pilot, Rupali Wagmore, who was questioned for about two hours here, told the Special Investigation Team that three passengers had allegedly barged into the cockpit of the Air India Express flight and three others supported them.

Wagmore reportedly pressed the hijack button in panic after passengers of Air India Express flight 4422 stormed the
cockpit and entered into a heated argument with her after it was diverted here on October 19 due to poor visibility at Kochi, causing several hours of delay.

Police said the pilot persisted with her complaint during questioning that she had been threatened with dire consequences by three passengers if she did not take the flight to Kochi.
-------
With the Air India Staff sticking to their complaint I guess this would for sure lead to a criminal case. The Malayalam version of Mathrubhumi had a much more detailed information on the questioning. The pilot had said that one of the staff (not the pilots) were literally pulled up by using his neck tie and threatened, and that she is receiving e-mail threats. The pilot clearly says about the international rules by which her flying time is regulated. She may lose her license if she violates this.

I remember seeing a facebook comment (the day in which this incident happened), in which the facebook profile of the lady pilot was shared. Now it is natural that threats and obscene comments would follow. Kerala Police cyber-cell was too smart and enthusiastic to track down and lay charges on 15-20 people who had sent e-mails having pictures of a house, saying that it belonged to CPI(M) leader Pinarayi Vijayan. With such capabilities I am sure that they can track down the folks threatening the pilot as well.

As I see it today, the tide is slowly turning against the over-enthusiastic passengers who thought that a bit of gherao and other communist trade union tactics may help them. AI may have pathetic service mentality, but I feel in the court case many of the points like criminal intimidation etc. will stick.

Note to self: Another point that claiming 100% literacy always and every time, does NOT automatically mean that the society is civilised, or are educated in each and every aspect of life for eg: Flying Rules and Regulations.

[Bade]

Sachin, can we have names of the errant passengers before you start your smear campaign.

If people are allowed to misbehave on roads, citing indic cultural reasons (refer to roads thread), why do you expect the same bunch to behave any better when on air.

[rohitvats]

Allow me to narrate a real horror story courtesy our national carrier......here goes:

1. So, moi is slated to travel from Delhi to Amritsar by 18:30 AI flight (which I later realized goes further on to Sharjah)

2. But at 15:30, I get a SMS saying that flight is delayed by one hour. So, the departure time is 19:30 Hrs...I even got a call from their call center to the effect. Moi, pleasantly surprised and thinks IA is becoming customer friendly.

3. Reach airport by 17:30 hrs and the horror story starts. Waits for 20 minutes at a counter to be told that subject flight counter is some where else....this, when none of the screens carried any specific flight number. It seems, only the International Flights are handled in such a manner - dedicated counter for each flight.

4. Moi reaches the counter for subject flight and get a shock when the attendant says that 'FLIGHT IS CLOSED'......God almighty....how can the flight be closed? It is still 18:05 hrs...the board clearly says that flight closes 20 minutes before departure. I am one-and-half-hour early!!!!

5. So, it is not just me but couple of other passengers as well. After much cussing and to and fro arguments, 06 passengers are given HAND WRITTEN boarding passes...to their credit, they sent a person in advance at Security Check to ensure they don't stop us. But no one tells us how the flight was 'CLOSED'.

6. Counter attendant tells us to hurry as boarding is in progress...so, me runs as fast possible (and which is a feat given my weight) and makes it to counter 20B...only to realize that boarding is 30 minutes away.

7. So, moi sits and drinks water and surfs BRF using airport free WIFI on me new SAMSUNG Tab 2.....but lo and behold, we have another problem.

8. When the boarding started, the passengers with hand written passes were asked to fall out....they first let in all the other passengers and counted and re-counted the boarding pass coupons (which they cut off from the boarding pass at entry gates) to see if 'THEY HAVE ENOUGH SEATS FOR US PEOPLE'.

9. In all this, while the boarding started, they made an announcement to the effect that -- "Boarding in Economy Class is FREE"...meaning, one can sit anywhere irrespective of one's seat number. So, the plane turned into a state road transport bus....

10. Finally, after endless rounds of counting and re-counting the boarding coupons, they concluded that there were enough seats to allow us 06 passengers in.....and all this while, the b@stards were behaving in a manner as if it is we who have committed some crime.

11. And then, there was commotion while getting into the flight...the IA staff took the hand baggage of many passengers (while entering the a/c from aero-bridge) to be transferred to holding cabin as there was not enough space inside the a/c for all hand baggage.

The true story of all this development was this - the a/c scheduled to fly at 18:30 hrs had to be changed for some reason and this caused the initial delay. Now, the new aircraft was with lesser capacity than compared to the earlier one......plus, they held onto some AI quota seats till last moment...so, the buggers did not have enough seats to accommodate us.

Now, coming to why 19:30 hrs flight was closed at 18:00 hrs - well, most the passengers (95%+) on the flight were people who had come to India from UK in earlier flights and were taking this connecting flight home. So, these guys had checked well in advance. It is us domestic leg passengers who came as per schedule who got shafted...damn you, I'm not flying AI again.

[Sachin]

Sachin, can we have names of the errant passengers before you start your smear campaign

Hijack drama: AI passengers appear before cops, jittery
The passengers Abdul Khader, Muhammed Ashraf, Thomas Joseph, Manoj Sivan, Rasheed and Augustine arrived at the police station around 11.30am.
....
Manoj Sivan, another passenger, too shared his concern over the way the police summoned them. "We believe that the police targeted us after our faces appeared on the media,'' he said.

This is what I could get from the news reports. Need to scout for facebook posters, where their photos had been put up show casing that as great heroes who rose to the occassion.

If people are allowed to misbehave on roads, citing indic cultural reasons (refer to roads thread), why do you expect the same bunch to behave any better when on air.

Perhaps I did not clear my stand in a better fashion. It is pretty much known that we have a penchant to misbehave on roads and else where. But for these heroes in the Air India flight, they tried the same tactic in a very wrong place. Stuff like gherao physical assault may work in any commie cuckoo-land. If this had happened in a KSRTC bus or a Private bus, the driver may not have got off so easily from getting harmed.

So it is not a smear campaign, which I am indulging in. I am harping on an aspect which we in Malayalam call Thinna Midukku (i.e acting aggressive in a place, where odds are heavily in favour of the person doing the aggression). Other examples include, beating up a government official as part of a mob. Or bullying a person and getting things done by ganging up against him/her (Gherao culture). Unfortunately here, the Thinna Midukku caused some major trouble for these folks. And why did I call this boorish behaviour as Thinna Midukku? Because these very same folks were in the flight at Abu Dhabhi where it was delayed by 3 hours. No complaints or macho-giri, there? Why? because these folks cannot even talk with an Abu Dhabhi police man eye-to-eye.

PS: If people at BR feel that pilots (or any other people doing their jobs) can be assualted, threatened etc. and that can be justified using citing indic cultural reasons, then I see that I have been preaching to a wrong crowd . All I would say is that these people should use the same indic culture, in other part of the world to learn a few new lessons in life.

damn you, I'm not flying AI again.

AI and IA have their own attitude problems. I am sure no one in BR would deny that simple fact . And yes, there are other options like avoiding the air line, or sueing them in consumer courts etc. And there are long term options like perhaps GoI even shutting down this for good. But if we start allowing every body to just start threaterning employees doing their job on the ground, then we are going down a slippery slop. Any one can then take a train, or a bus any where by bashing up the driver, the guard/conductor etc.

[Bade]

Saar, I was just pointing out that this behavior that you take specific offense too is quite common in India. Be it towards bus drivers or taxi drivers or auto drivers. So what is so special here, other than it was an Airline pilot that was at the receiving end of it this time around. That is not to support such boorishness on my part, but it is symptomatic of things indic, even if it hurts in saying so.

Add to that this gherao and andolan bizness is not limited to the region where this happened, it is one of the long lasting karmic gifts of the methods adopted for our freedom movement, an unintended consequence. It is not distinguishing feature of commies alone either. So I believe you are using something which is clearly a civil disobedience matter and smearing it as regular behavior of people from Kerala alone. Yes, I take offense at this portrayal on your part and it would help if you really desist from making such connections at every opportunity.

Now, how many here in BR would stand up to antics of airlines in UK or USA, but I see almost everyone here do a run down on AI. See this Thinna midukka is another indic trait and not limited to just one region of indic land.

[VinodTK]

Civil aircraft may soon get new air routes

Civil airlines may soon get new air routes between cities in India, which could cut flying hours. The government is planning to open restricted airspace for flexible use by civilian airplanes, a move that will increase airspace capacity, according to Airports Authority of India (AAI) officials.

AAI, the country’s military and air navigation service providers have joined hands for allowing flexible use of restricted Indian airspace. The move is a part of the Central Air Traffic Flow Management (C-ATFM) system that the airport regulator is expected to put in place by 2014.

Restricted airspace is an area over which the local controlling authorities limit movement of aircraft for safety concerns or security reasons. Flexible use means airspace would not be designated as purely civil or military airspace but be allocated according to user requirements.
:
:
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[habal]

Bade miyan, there is a basic problem GOCWs, & the news is that most just don't know how to behave given a social situation. There is this paindu-ness (countryness) in their attitudes and one knows as soon as the mouth opens. Another fact is utter lack of respect for any protocol, rule, person, profession .. you can see it in mallu movies when utter nobody "herrows" come and blast whoever they feel like, they are entitled to speak about anyone on earth and they are experienced in every field and realm to pass a comment on anyone. It's a pretty curious social phenomenon, they offer no solutions to any problem apart from their own small petty acts of violence.

I use the roads here regularly and drive almost 100 kms a day everyday, and trust me this is the most chaotic and unruly crowd here next only to certain usual suspects at the bottom of social development in India. You can see the true behaviour of people, when they are left to relative anonymity of their individual cars, autos and let loose on the roads with a freedom to influence and inflict damage on other people. The most courteous mallus I have seen are from malabar, Kozhikode, Malappuram etc though these days due to inter-relations with Kochi-travancorites even that ratio will deplete quickly. Totally support those who say punish the hijackers, though I am fully aware as to how IA/AI treats passengers.

[Sachin]

Bade miyan, there is a basic problem GOCWs, & the news is that most just don't know how to behave given a social situation.

Sir, to add on to this. Bade saar took offence that I was kind of stereo-typing Mallus . I have seen a generation of Mallus who used to claim superiority by taking the usual stand of "100% literate state, educationally and socially superior". It is only recently (8 odd years) that I realised that these claims do not hold any water, as practically I am not seeing any difference between Mallus and the people who they used to put down as illiterate or socially inferior.

It's a pretty curious social phenomenon, they offer no solutions to any problem apart from their own small petty acts of violence

+1. Sooner or later I need to write to the editor of the Malayalam daily I read. It is a whine fest. Not enough trains, not enough buses, buses over-charging.. this goes on and on. But does the reporter have any suggestions? None.

Any way.. let us see what report the police files in the court. The folks who did the ruckus were on vacation for a week. Dont know if they have already left the country. They have not been formally charged so I guess they can fly back.

Edited: Overseas minister loses his cool as NRIs corner him at Pravasi Bharatiya Divas
The case is already taken a political colour, and is going the Commie v/s Congie route. People too would now take a stand based on their political leanings, and the show goes on..

[Gagan]

Air India's Boeing 777s are in a really bad shape.
Broken seat handles, loose nearly broken seats. Entertainment systems non functional. Sheer lack of basic cleanliness on the aircraft - dirty toilets and dirty carpets.
And to top it off, every flight has one or two very sullen air hostesses - one of those who will loudly stop the good air hostesses from being too helpful with the passengers.

[lakshmikanth]

OT:
Malluland has one thing going for it (apart from being my native place), its much cleaner than the rest of India. It also has true freedom of speech, anyone can say anything. Also "onnukil ashaante nenchathu, ellenkil kallarikku purathu" seems to be the motto of Kerala . We go all the way 100% only, to destroy what the other has built.

*ducking for cover*

On topic:
I was on one of those 777s from Delhi to Tokyo. The air-hostess was asking the passengers to close the overhead bins. My GHQ was looking all , I was onlee. We are like this onlee.

[Kannan]

Question: Is the pilot mandatoryly required to leave the aircraft (that is on the ground) when her duty hours are over?

Let me explain on the background of the TRV incident. The plane is on ground at 6:00am. Pilot's duty hours run out at 8:30. Is the pilot required to leave the cockpit of the aircraft on ground at 8:30, or face penalties?

Not sure how it's enforced by DGCA but elsewhere yeah.

On a side note, this is kind of a problem

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 61684.aspx

[Dileep]

Thanks Kannan. Nice to know.

[gnair]

Mumbai Airport Terminal Construction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a3oaiQl ... re=related

[SaiK]

Really liked AI yesterday's service from chicago - new delhi. It did the whole flight one hour early in 13 hours flat. Mom did not complain at all, and it is one of the better ways to travel between maasa and desh for parents.

[Vipul]

Now if only the Desis understood that Wheel Chairs are for genuine requirements only. Its funny to see nearly all folks above 55 in wheel chairs and the airline staff doing multiple trips back and fro for carting passengers on the limited number of wheel chairs.

[Shankas]

Now if only the Desis understood that Wheel Chairs are for genuine requirements only. Its funny to see nearly all folks above 55 in wheel chairs and the airline staff doing multiple trips back and fro for carting passengers on the limited number of wheel chairs.

Its not the parents, but the kids who put them on a wheelchair. This is done to ensure they are safely deposited into the aircraft. I would venture and guess and say 80% are fit and healthy. Airlines need to start charging $100 per trip and you will see a miracle. The sad part is I sometime see people with need not getting the service due to lack of wheelchairs and staff.

A few months back I saw a son/son-in-law assist a lady into the wheelchair and then proceeded to stack 3 bags on her lap. The lady was also willing

[putnanja]

Now if only the Desis understood that Wheel Chairs are for genuine requirements only. Its funny to see nearly all folks above 55 in wheel chairs and the airline staff doing multiple trips back and fro for carting passengers on the limited number of wheel chairs.

Its not the parents, but the kids who put them on a wheelchair. This is done to ensure they are safely deposited into the aircraft. I would venture and guess and say 80% are fit and healthy. Airlines need to start charging $100 per trip and you will see a miracle. The sad part is I sometime see people with need not getting the service due to lack of wheelchairs and staff.

A few months back I saw a son/son-in-law assist a lady into the wheelchair and then proceeded to stack 3 bags on her lap. The lady was also willing

I think this is more the case when the parents cannot speak english and travelling for first time. I know of people who have requested wheel chair access for their parents/in-laws when they couldn't find anyone to guide their parents through the airport for gate changes etc.

In my company, if someone asks for help in guiding their parents/in-laws, I usually volunteer to help them out. When my parents travel, I usually ask them to ask some desis around if they have any issues. Most of the times, someone will be willing to help them along.

[girish.r]

simple question -- flying the same a/c, same routes, same bands of staff pay, why did Kingfisher crater while Jet/Indigo/Spicejet are supposedly healthy?
did these airlines somehow have a lesser expense model than KF or are they also in trouble but not in deep red like KF?

even their domestic lending banks would be the same set.

Acquiring Air deccan in a haste to fly international, A340-500 were fuel guzzlers, under pricing (is that whats it called?) tickets to gain load, losing a few A320 for non payment of lease, on boarding staff with a higher salary (read middle management), high borrowing as compared to their market value and lower average of aircraft utilization - were the triggers for a quick fallout.

Serving as regional would have been a great option since the beginning. They would have taken a lot of share off other airlines.

Hmmmm and last known reason - Mallya.....

[Sachin]

A few months back I saw a son/son-in-law assist a lady into the wheelchair and then proceeded to stack 3 bags on her lap. The lady was also willing

Two incidents which I remember:-
Location: Frankfurt. I see an India couple looking eagerly (a bit away from the check in counters area) at an old Indian lady pushing a trolley with two huge bags on it. Time to check in, the old lady says one of the huge bags is her hand-baggage . The air port crew a smart young German girl, says that in that case she should try lifting the bag out of the trolley and then leave the trolley behind. Game is up. The old lady makes some fuss, but is politely said that the second bag would also go in as her check-in baggage. She says she has some medicines in there, and the girl gets that out for her. The expression on the Desi couple watching this from a bit afar was even more funnier . Looks like it this couple who tried to use the lady as the "courier boy".

Location: Singapore. A slightly old man, accompanied with a kid of 4-5 years comes in. As usual two huge bags as check-in baggages. The air-hostess (an Indian) says only one can go in. The man says, one can be considered the check-in baggage for the kid. The air-hostess says that in that case the kid can be asked to carry the bag. Game up, and the second bag is taken out of the aircraft and handed over to a ground staff (who may later dump that as part of the checked-in luggage).

PS: It really riles me up when I see folks trying to circumvent some rule or law which is essentially there to help them and every one one else. If people need to have real huge bags (to carry gifts etc. for every one out there in the family), book a shipping container and get them on a ship.

[nachiket]

India worst performing domestic air travel market globally: IATA

Situation is bleak even for the well-managed carriers. The once "booming" carriers are going end up like their ill-fated mid 90's predecessors (ModiLuft, EastWest, Damania, Sahara, etc.). And for pretty much the same reasons too.

[Theo_Fidel]

Folks need to try the United Non-stop that I end up taking every time. With even 1/3 the passengers loaded the cabin space is full. I once saw an entire overhead cabin filled with garlands and flowers some VVVIP had gathered. This is particularly annoying to folks like me who never travel with check-in luggage. I always pickup/buy clothes, toiletries/etc in India. Forces one to make sure we check-in super early. Even 2.5 hours early is NOT early enough. One always feels everything in India is a fight to the death rat race. And the hungama to get off the plane, my lord! As soon as plane lands, before even getting of the runway, folks are scrambling to force their way to the front. 70 year old mami's included. One gets the feeling that they are afraid they will be left behind, very much IR type behavior.

BTW enjoy the non-stop flights while you can folks. They are loss making and due to disappear any moment.

[nachiket]

BTW enjoy the non-stop flights while you can folks. They are loss making and due to disappear any moment.

Yup. Delta and American already stopped them. United (Continental) and Air India are the only ones left. Nobody else even tried.

[negi]

^ One stop/hop ones are not that bad, for instance Jet's JFK/EWR to Mumbai via Brussels is as good as United(Continental) in fact for old people I would say 1 hop is better, they get to straighten their backs , get some fresh air in a smallish airport like Brussels unlike the marathon circuits like Heathrow or Frankfurt.

[Surya]

the amazing part of the wheelchair usage is how many do not need to wait for assistance and be last one out on the other end. the same folks are able to suddenly sprint out of the aircraft to immigration

and of course each wheel chair folk gets a half dozen relatives to board.

Along with folks with children who somehow expect the whole crew to be at their beck and call, the wheelchair users rile me


Anyway made the desh trip via Turkish

Desis plus Turkis and assorted thirdworlders truly make disembarking and boarding a nightmare


also hate the seats which slide forward while reclining

oh please god make whoever designed those chairs suffer.

Turkish on the whole is pretty good (except for that miserable seat for taller people , and the terrible boarding procedures in Istanbul)
aircraft are new, indian food served by Do&co is better than the desi purveyors, less oily and less salty

more on this trip later at Foreign travelogues

[shyam]

the amazing part of the wheelchair usage is how many do not need to wait for assistance and be last one out on the other end. the same folks are able to suddenly sprint out of the aircraft to immigration

Vast majority of such wheel chair users are elderly parents traveling without their children accompanying them. If airlines provide an option to have a guide at every point for a fee of, say $25, I think many would opt for that. What they need is guidance to take connection flights, waiting rooms, rest rooms, immigration and customs. Wheel chairs are actually used by many for this purpose.

[Surya]

shyam

I wish I could agree with you

but explain to me how many of the same people manage to walk out at the destination

I would be fine if they had to pay extra for the facility

[shyam]

Surya,

My mother-in-law, who travels alone, uses this facility. At Dubai airport her son arranges Marhaba agency for help after paying a fee. In US, I make sure to tip the person who helps her. She is ready to walk, but the wheel chair policy insists that she has to sit on the chair. Even though she has travelled several times, she still doesn't have confidence to travel independently. The biggest problem she has is that she won't understand when others talk in English, especially in non-Indian accent, and she can't respond to it properly, and this creates the fear. On the wheel chair, things move pretty smooth.

Once when she was going via Singapore, she met another lady who travels regularly with wheel chain assistance, and she said that during her long wait in Singapore she regularly takes free Singapore tour. What these people need is a guaranteed reliable personal guidance at every point (including when flight happens to take an unexpected diversion), as most of them come from rural India. Currently, only wheel chair assistance provides this guarantee.

I would suggest airlines to charge a fee for this wheel chair assistance. There is no reason why it should be free, as it costs extra labor.