Kargil War Thread - VI

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
akimalik
BRFite
Posts: 133
Joined: 14 Apr 2010 11:27

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby akimalik » 16 Oct 2012 19:35

Aditya_V wrote:it was a defeat by the Politicans when TSPA was winning and not a miltary defeat


has anyone had the chance to read this book called "Jackboot" ?
its about the German Army across the past 3-4 centuries. in Germany too, the General Staff made sure that what they projected was that the German Army never lost .... they always found something/someone to blame. they kept re-inforcing the invincibility of the German Soldier even though they did suffer multiple setbacks. using this tactic, they were even able to brush aside the consequences of WWI.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49813
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2012 22:01

So how does Imran Sherlock explain the disbandment of the NLI after the Kargil defeat?

The plan was that when the Indian forces left their Kargil positions for the winter, our Northern Light Infantry (NLI) would march in and occupy these, ....... The pickets or bunkers in Kargil are so unassailable that India would have to admit defeat and we would bring India to the bargaining table.


Did the TSP accomplish the war aims?
How can this cretin think it was a resounding success?

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6147
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nachiket » 16 Oct 2012 22:18

SSridhar wrote:
Jhujar wrote:Kargil revisited — Imran Kureshi
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\10\15\story_15-10-2012_pg3_6

Look at the Pakiness of equating Kargil with Op. Meghdoot in Saltoro/Siachen and justifying the former on the basis of the latter. How much more ridiculous can a Paki get ? India did not walk into the positions vacated by the Pakistani troops in Siachen, unlike what the PA did in Kargil. India pre-empted the Pakistani move to capture illegally what rightfully belonged to India by virtue of the Karachi and Simla Agreements (leave aside the irrefutable fact that the whole of the erstwhile Princely State of J&K belongs to India anyway). Whereas troops were never stationed in Saltoro/Siachen before 1984, Kargil etc used to be occupied by Indian troops and Indian positions were well demarcated by the 1972 Simla Agreement when CFL was converted into LoC. .....

Even Najam Sethi couldn't stop himself from making the same comparison in that video of his regarding the Kargil war. Every now and then, inherent pakiness is visible in the supposedly "moderate and enlightened" paki journalists.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7571
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby rohitvats » 16 Oct 2012 22:22

ramana wrote:So how does Imran Sherlock explain the disbandment of the NLI after the Kargil defeat?<SNIP>


Disbanding of NLI? Now, where did you hear this?

AFAIK, NLI was given a full Regiment status quite akin to what happened to Ladakh Scouts in our case. It is a different matter that now 40%-50% of the troops come from Punjab instead of being only from Northern Areas, as was the case earlier.

Some units of NLI during Kargil suffered such horrendous casualties that they ceased to exist as fighting units.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49813
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2012 22:57

You take a regt that was engaged in combat and afterwards upgrade its status but replace its consitituents with a whole lot of people from other regions. What do you call that? To me its look slike they needed to stiffen the NLI and in effect disbanded them.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20790
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Prem » 16 Oct 2012 23:06

The QooraAshy forgot to mention the dishonrable way PA dumped the dead bodies of its soldiers at their homes in night time and so many were buried by IA.Unike the Liars of Lahore ,Indian Army did not occupy Siachen Heights pretending to be NSA . It was declared governmetal decision and plan.
And Paki are still "successfuly" relishing the political, social,economic reward/cost of the adventure. Need More of this ? :evil:

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7571
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby rohitvats » 16 Oct 2012 23:13

ramana wrote:You take a regt that was engaged in combat and afterwards upgrade its status but replace its consitituents with a whole lot of people from other regions. What do you call that? To me its look slike they needed to stiffen the NLI and in effect disbanded them.


Well, that is one way to look at it. Generally, getting a Regiment status is a big reward and appreciation in professional armies but you can trust our Kommode Kommandoes to sully even this honor system.

satya
BRFite
Posts: 712
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 03:09

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby satya » 16 Oct 2012 23:16

World works in strange ways . NLI was the only unit of TSPA to do Kargil operation with some sort of deniability (maybe all other units have more or less pakjabi soldiers ) . Now its gone. SSG is already another ISI for TSPA ( a master on its own) . Who's there for the next Ghazi in Chief to launch his raid ( one without price or shared title accord ) ? For without raid no Ghazi in Chief is accepted & no raid can be conducted without 2nd in command ( a very confidential person in charge not easy to find , been so there be no need for nuke for every corps commander ! ) . Mushy had his man in PoK , Kiyani had none ( Pasha was playing his own little game , Kiyani came late so guess who said no to Pasha's retirement with icing of OBL killing at his doorstep in one of kabila meetings ) . Trademark of all TSPA led ops had been two men show for entry of 3rd person creates new competition as the ghazi in chief for successful raid . Read any tspian version of war , its always been full of perceived or actual betrayals from one or more commanders .

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 306
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby member_22906 » 17 Oct 2012 01:12

TSPA had no choice but to upgrade NLI since post Kargil there was a fair amount of hue & cry in Northern Areas about the way their soldiers were treated - right from they getting screwed by IA to TSPA denying them the credit in terms of their (supposed) sacrifices and not accepting their dead as Paki nationals...

So the upgrade was both - a recognition for their role and the political posturing that was required. Ofcourse, true to their style the Pakjabi dominated TSPA have diluted the force levels of the Gilgitis, Baltis, etc thereafter

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5037
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Surya » 28 Nov 2012 21:51

http://www.firstpost.com/india/they-did ... 38436.html

:(

They didn’t just pluck your eyes out, Capt Saurabh Kalia,
They gouged out ours too.
Or would we have been blind to your father’s agony,
His cry for ‘justice’ for all these years?

They didn’t just pierce your eardrums, Capt Kalia,
They poured hot oil in ours too.
Or would we be deaf to your mother’s fitful sobs
And her pitiful cry of anguish?

They didn’t just burn your chest, Capt Kalia,
They carved out our bleeding hearts too.
Or would we, as a nation, have been so heartless
As to forget our Kargil war hero?

They didn’t just mangle your private parts, Capt Kalia,
They castrated an entire nation.
Or would we be so impotent that we yearn for aman
While they plot yet more jihadi crimes?

When they ambushed you in the Kargil heights, Capt Kalia,
They waylaid every one of us.
But you died so that we may live
Our shameless, ungrateful lives.

We sent you to war at age 22, Capt Kalia,
Which is no viable diable age.
And yet, we have failed to honour you
The way your father sought.

Shame on us – and shame on you, Mother India,
That you would send your son to war
And yet not collect his martyred ashes
Or even shed a silent tear.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2054
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Prem Kumar » 28 Nov 2012 23:37

Heart warming to see at least one decent journalist (Venky Vembu of FirstPost) who highlighted what must never be forgotten or forgiven.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/kargil-martyr-saurabh-kalias-father-moves-sc-will-he-get-justice-538046.html

Capt. Saurabh Kalia's dad has gone to the Supreme Court because he couldnt find justice anywhere & the successive Governments have done Fvck-all about it. Our MEA Salman Khurshid says he is waiting for the Supreme Court judgement!

WTF does the GOI need the Supreme Court judgement to raise this as a war-crime in the the International Court of Justice???

I hope/pray that the parents get some solace & justice before they die. And our SF chaps bump-off a few of the SSG mofos.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9765
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby sum » 29 Nov 2012 09:02

^^ Wonder why the 5 other jawans who were subjected to the same Paki treatment are never mentioned?

Jaybhatt
BRFite
Posts: 172
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Jaybhatt » 29 Nov 2012 09:21

Surya wrote:http://www.firstpost.com/india/they-didnt-just-pluck-your-eyes-out-capt-saurabh-kalia-538436.html

:(

They didn’t just pluck your eyes out, Capt Saurabh Kalia,
They gouged out ours too.
Or would we have been blind to your father’s agony,
His cry for ‘justice’ for all these years?

They didn’t just pierce your eardrums, Capt Kalia,
They poured hot oil in ours too.
Or would we be deaf to your mother’s fitful sobs
And her pitiful cry of anguish?

They didn’t just burn your chest, Capt Kalia,
They carved out our bleeding hearts too.
Or would we, as a nation, have been so heartless
As to forget our Kargil war hero?

They didn’t just mangle your private parts, Capt Kalia,
They castrated an entire nation.
Or would we be so impotent that we yearn for aman
While they plot yet more jihadi crimes?

When they ambushed you in the Kargil heights, Capt Kalia,
They waylaid every one of us.
But you died so that we may live
Our shameless, ungrateful lives.

We sent you to war at age 22, Capt Kalia,
Which is no viable diable age.
And yet, we have failed to honour you
The way your father sought.

Shame on us – and shame on you, Mother India,
That you would send your son to war
And yet not collect his martyred ashes
Or even shed a silent tear.


One of the most moving pieces I have read in the Indian press in recent times.

Venky Vembu deserves our heartfelt thanks. More power to his pen.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5037
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Surya » 29 Nov 2012 09:42

Watching Qureshi mofo on NDTV should be enough to understand that There should be no agreement with the Pukis

Those who think that a Siachen agreement can be made with these #%#%$^ are surely dreaming

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Vipul » 30 Nov 2012 07:03

No matter what you say or the many acts of perfidy sure to come, Useful Idiots will always be ready to do their masters bidding.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3728
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Vipul » 12 Dec 2012 04:34

Kargil hero's father moves United Nations Human Rights Council for justice.

The father of an Indian army officer who was killed in action has moved to the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) against the torture and murder of his son, Capt Suarabh Kalia, and five soldiers of the Jat regiment during the Kargil conflict in 1999.

The petition has been jointly sent by the Flag of Honour Foundation and Dr NK Kalia, father of the captain.

Capt Kalia was the first officer to detect intrusion into Indian side of the Line of Control by the Pakistan army. He was later allegedly captured by Pakistani forces and tortured for over three weeks.

The petitioners urged the UNHRC to ensure that a full and independent investigation is conducted into the issue immediately and the ends of justice is met. They also asked the UN body to take appropriate steps to urge the Government of Pakistan to conduct an enquiry into the matter and ascertain those responsible for the torture and death of the captain.

The petition identifies the torturers as "unknown members of the Pakistan army, reportedly belonging to either the Elite Special Services Group or the Northern Light Infantry".

Capt Kalia's "post-mortem report and the death certificate indicate burns inflicted by cigarettes, eardrums pierced by hot rods, broken bones and teeth. Removal of eyes before puncturing then and chopped limbs and private organs", the petition said.

Talking to TOI over telephone from Palampur Himachal Pradesh, Dr Kalia confirmed that the petition had been filed. "I have very happy to see many people coming forward to support our family in this fight for justice for Saurab," he said.

A group of lawyers from Bangalore, including a senior lawyer associated with the UN, had been preparing the case to be submitted to the UNHRC. The activists said the apathy of the government in taking up the issue had forced them to do it themselves (What else can you expect from a Government that is made of Hijda's/Chakka's/Napusank's).

"Our idea is to let the families know that the sacrifice made by their sons will not forgotten and fight for justice will continue," said Rajiv Chandrashekar, MP and founder of the Flag of Honour Foundation.

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 266
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby keshavchandra » 18 Jan 2013 10:35

“While PAF fighters did fly Combat Air Patrols (CAP) duringthe conflict, they stayed well within Pakistani air space. On occasions, IAF MiG-29s armed with the deadly R-77 BVRair-to-air missiles were able to lock on to PAF F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage. In the absence of a PAF threat, the IAF was able to deliver numerous devastating strikes on intruder positions and supply dumps.”

source: Indras
It it is true(on which i ve some doubts), then it is a big leap for IAF over pak.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9641
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2013 10:50

keshavchandra wrote:
“While PAF fighters did fly Combat Air Patrols (CAP) duringthe conflict, they stayed well within Pakistani air space. On occasions, IAF MiG-29s armed with the deadly R-77 BVRair-to-air missiles were able to lock on to PAF F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage. In the absence of a PAF threat, the IAF was able to deliver numerous devastating strikes on intruder positions and supply dumps.”

source: Indras
It it is true(on which i ve some doubts), then it is a big leap for IAF over pak.


That was before F-16 MLU's, fresh batches f-16A MLU's and new Block 50/52's. Today the situation is much more different thanks to US SD and our weakeaning the opposition to such sales by UPA. Advanii repeadtly stated to US such sales were unacceptable to us.

Not for nothing PA has allocated USD 25 Billion purchases of F-16's, JF-17, AEW, Mid air refuellors, A to S missiles etc.

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 266
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby keshavchandra » 18 Jan 2013 11:17

Aditya_V wrote:[quote="keshavchandra
That was before F-16 MLU's, fresh batches f-16A MLU's and new Block 50/52's. Today the situation is much more different thanks to US SD and our weakeaning the opposition to such sales by UPA. Advanii repeadtly stated to US such sales were unacceptable to us.

Not for nothing PA has allocated USD 25 Billion purchases of F-16's, JF-17, AEW, Mid air refuellors, A to S missiles etc.

But still the situation is not so change. PAF has limited no of mul and block 50/52 in hand with such capabilities. And for the forther enhancement they are lookin for the jf 17, which is the scale down fighter with limited bvr capabilities. Its a new change in their procurement strategy to reduce the dependency on US.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9641
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2013 12:01

70 F-16's which will soon go up to 85 BVR capable with AIM-120C is not a small matter, it is tough for any airforce to handle.

It will take days before we have AIr dominance when 10 years back the only option PAF had was to run away.

We desperately need Air dominance early in a conflict. Let me know how we can achieve that with 80+ BVR capable AEW guided F-16's with other aircraft. and we need enough aircraft to guard against a surprise attack.

We don't have thousands of CM's to take out Paki targets like Uncle and then move in.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62474
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2013 12:22

its better to kill as much of them on the ground as possible..which means a variety of PGMs ranging from nirbhay, SFW, crystal maze, sudarshan with wing kits purchased or produced in bulk than token numbers.
we already have the planes....we need to PGMs and the electronic warfare/SEAD support platforms like rivet joint / prowler types and some form of long range HARM.

first tendency of TSP in a serious fight is to preserve vital national assets like F_solah and be cagey about committing in bulk or getting into closely contested fights. they will disperse to the west and carry out raids and patrols in ones and twos mostly. the Mirages will get slaughtered if they try anything smart and so will the bunder and F7s.

TSP has the attitude and some teeth, but cannot get away from its lack of airspace and economic staying power.

idea is chase off the remnants to the west, and establish a airborne line of dominance along the indus river. cross that and make sure someone is there to takedown.

I think as we build up to deal with PLAAF, PAF is not a separate problem we need to plan for....Delhi is likely 100% more likely to use force vs Cheen than against its aman ki tamasha brother TSP.

AmitG
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 31
Joined: 19 Dec 2010 07:08

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby AmitG » 18 Jan 2013 12:48

I am surprised. We rejected F-16 as part of the MMRCA but fear the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force.

keshavchandra
BRFite
Posts: 266
Joined: 05 Dec 2008 22:23

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby keshavchandra » 18 Jan 2013 17:22

AmitG wrote:I am surprised. We rejected F-16 as part of the MMRCA but fear the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force.

the reason behind the rejection of f 16, was different then then capabilities but the required tot perameters.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9641
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Jan 2013 17:32

AmitG wrote:I am surprised. We rejected F-16 as part of the MMRCA but fear the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force.


Well if could purchase 126*6= 756 planes then we could have placed orders for 6 contenders, since we are SDRE's and can buy 126 or 189 planes we went for a single contender. and Further wars are not 1 on 1 fighter contest.

USA does not allow Russia to sell the latest fighters to IRAN and has forced Russia to sanction its small MIg-29 fleet, it does not mean USA will buy all those Mig-29 aircraft that Russia is willing to produce.

USA also sanctioned Saddam Hussian from Upgrading his air force and SAM's. They did not allow himself to arm himself with Russian Aircraft AWACS etc. for GF_I even though they felt thier weapons were superior.

In an Indo Pak war I would like Air dominance in 2 hours, Pakistan Navy wiped out in 4 hours and all Missile launchers for Ballistic missiles taken out for 6 hours. Pakistan Army should then have the sole plessure of attaining 72's from Indian bombs and the those not yet attending 72 can count body parts.

I do not want a fair fight and stalemates

nash
BRFite
Posts: 746
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nash » 18 Jan 2013 18:11

In a full-fledge war against pakistan, biggest advantage i think we have is the geographical location of pakistan from NE-E-S we can attack them and IF we have a base in Af, then there would be big haay tooba in Paki camp of possiblity of sandwitched b/w us.Because they are not able to go for 2 front war, beacuse most of their military base in eastern side.

Now to destroy those bases in eastern side, singha ji is right, Nirbhay will play the major role.I think when it get inducted in Indian Armed forces it will be the major gamechanger in both front.

We can also go with Brahmos to destroy their Aero-defence, whatever they have, and then with complete coverage of SAT and UAV , we can destroy most of their F's on Ground only.Also even if we send 2 group of MKI and Rafale, 8 each, i don't think PAF has any thing to stop them, unless they send heavy counter force.

I don't think IAF will take more than 7 days, atmost, to establish complete airdominance on paki airspace.

A Sharma
BRFite
Posts: 1127
Joined: 20 May 2003 11:31

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby A Sharma » 24 Jan 2013 00:24

Putting our children in line of fire

Kargil, like every other meaningless war that we have fought, brings home lessons we continue to refuse to learn. Instead, we proudly call it our history written in the blood of our children. Indeed, our children penning down our misdeeds with their blood! Medals for some, few songs, a cross road renamed, and of course annual remembrance day and a memorial for those who sacrificed their tomorrow for our today; thus preparing more war fodder for our continuing misadventures. Since nothing went wrong, so there is nothing to learn. We shall do it again. We decide. You die. We sing.

Cut off from the reality of pain and affliction that would be brought upon the nation, the decision maker takes the course most suited to his whimsical ambitions. Possible hurdles are sidetracked, on the basis of ‘need to know’, or merely bulldozed. Never has there been an institutional decision for the bloodshed. And at the end of each fiasco, original objectives are redefined to cry, “Hurrah! We have won”.

Our leaders seek personal glory, and desire honour in the eyes of other nations. Sadly, that has become our definition of national honour; but how can we be respected when we have little self respect? So concerned have we become about how they perceive us that we openly deride our religion and all the social values that we once stood for.

The whole truth about Kargil is yet to be known. We await the stories of forgotten starved soldiers hiding behind cold desolate rocks, with empty guns still held in their hands. What stood them there could only be a love higher than that of life. Some refused to withdraw even when ordered, and stayed to fight the proverbial last man last round. Such precious blood spilled without cause!

Whatever little I know, took a while to emerge, since General Musharraf had put a tight lid on Kargil. Three years later, a study commenced by GHQ to identify issues of concern at the lowest levels of command, was forcefully stopped by him. “What is your intent?” he asked. His cover-up was revealed many years later, on publication of his book.

An unsound military plan based on invalid assumptions, launched with little preparations and in total disregard to the regional and international environment, was bound to fail. That may well have been the reason for its secrecy. It was a total disaster. The question then arises why was it undertaken? Were there motives other than those proclaimed, or was it only a blunder, as I had assumed for many years?

It certainly wasn’t a defensive manoeuvre. There were no indications of an Indian attack. We didn’t pre-empt anything; nothing was on the cards. I was then heading the Analysis Wing of Inter Services Intelligence and it was my job to know. Our clearly expressed intent was to cut the supply line to Siachen and force the Indians to pull out. This was not a small result we sought and cannot be classified as a tactical manoeuvre, where no one other than the local commander needed to be aware. General Musharraf himself writes, “800 sq kms of area was captured.... and it created strategic effects”. To say that occupying empty spaces along the Line of Control was not a violation of any agreement and came under the purview of the local commander is astounding. This area was with the Indians as a result of Simla Agreement, and there had been no major violation of the Line of Control since 1971.

The entire planning and execution was done in a cavalier manner, in total disregard of military convention. In justification, to say that our assessment was not wrong, but there was, “unreasonably escalated Indian response” is a sorry excuse for not being able to assess Indian reaction. Assumptions were made that they would not be able to dislodge us and the world would sit back idly.

There were no mujahideen, only taped wireless messages, which fooled no one. Our soldiers were made to occupy barren ridges, with hand held weapons and ammunition. There was no way to dig in, so they were told to make parapets with lose stones and sit behind them, with no overhead protection. The boys were comforted by their commander’s assessment that no serious response would come. But it did — wave after wave, supported by massive air bursting artillery and repeated air attacks. The enemy still couldn’t manage to capture the peaks, and instead filled in the valleys. Cut off and forsaken, our posts started collapsing one after the other, though the general publicly denied it.

The gung-ho mannerism, when there were no pressures, was cowed when lines started shrinking and the international setting became frightening. There was no will to stay the course. Media was hushed to silence, so that pulling out does not become a political issue. We will sing when our songs don’t tie us down.

The operation, in any case, didn’t have the capacity to choke Siachen. When this truth surfaced, the initial aim was quickly modified. Now the book reads, “I would like to state emphatically that whatever movement has taken place so far in the direction of finding a solution to Kashmir is due considerably to the Kargil conflict.” Glory be to the victors.

We continue to indulge in bloody enterprises, under the hoax of safeguarding national interest. How many more medals will we put on coffins? How many more songs are we to sing? And how many more martyrs will our silences hide? If there is purpose to war then yes, we shall all go to the battle front, but a war where truth has to be hidden, makes one wonder whose interest is it serving?

It must be Allah’s country, for who else is holding it afloat?!

The writer is a retired lieutenant general and former corps commander of Lahore. Email: azizshahid10@gmail.com Blog: gen-shahidaziz.blogspot.com

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2160
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby VinodTK » 27 Jan 2013 05:09

No mujahideen, only soldiers in Kargil: Pak General
In a candid admission that only regular troops of the Pakistan Army took part in the Kargil conflict with India in 1999 and not mujahideen fighters as claimed by Islamabad, a retired Pakistani Lieutenant General, who was then heading the analysis wing of the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), has written that the intrusion was an "unsound military plan based on invalid assumptions" and there was a "cover-up" later by his then chief, General Pervez Musharraf.

In an article published in Pakistan's The Nation newspaper on January 6, Lt Gen Shahid Aziz, who retired in 2005 as commander of the IV Corps in Lahore, presents an account of the Kargil war that rejects many Pakistani claims about the conflict.

"There were no mujahideen, only taped wireless messages, which fooled no one. Our soldiers were made to occupy barren ridges, with hand held weapons and ammunition," Aziz said.

Criticising Musharraf in the article, Aziz makes the point that the entire battle was ill-planned and young soldiers were used as "war fodder" for the "misadventure".
:
:
:

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1745
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby eklavya » 27 Jan 2013 05:56

AmitG wrote:I am surprised. We rejected F-16 as part of the MMRCA but fear the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force.


Although the Rafale is far superior to the PAF F-16s or indeed the F-16s offered to the IAF, it does not make the PAF F-16s worthless. Your statement is bereft of any logic.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9641
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Jan 2013 12:35

eklavya wrote:
AmitG wrote:I am surprised. We rejected F-16 as part of the MMRCA but fear the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force.


Although the Rafale is far superior to the PAF F-16s or indeed the F-16s offered to the IAF, it does not make the PAF F-16s worthless. Your statement is bereft of any logic.


Nope he just thinks we have deep pockets to buy every F-16, F-18, F-35, Su-35, Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen out there.

Since we dont buy type 56 rifles or H&K GA3 rifles or knives which the Pakis buy, our soldiers should not be worried about then since arms not bought MOD should be able to kill Indian soldiers.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12719
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Jan 2013 13:09

there seems to be a concerted effort underway to nail musharraf's coffin shut - he must be stirring behind the scenes as a potential leader in waiting again

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49813
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 30 Jan 2013 21:54

Two related news reports about KArgil from TSP:

James B wrote:Japan Times: North Korea’s missiles tied to Musharraf's Kargil blunder :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

ISLAMABAD – A retired Pakistani nuclear scientist has claimed that former Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s 1999 military adventurism in the Kargil region of divided Kashmir failed in part because the North Korea-aided, nuclear-capable Ghauri missiles he wanted to deploy then had a faulty guidance system.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the scientist said that during the Kargil crisis of May-July 1999, Musharraf, who was then army chief, “wanted to deploy Ghauri missiles, but air went out of his balloon when the top general in charge of the missile program told him the missile had a faulty guidance system.”
:lol:

Over a year earlier, on April 6, 1998, Pakistan had carried out what it described as a successful first test of the intermediate-range ballistic missile, developed by Khan Research Laboratory with North Korean assistance.

Even Musharraf, who witnessed that Ghauri launch as a local corps commander, had been led to believe it was a success then, according to the nuclear scientist,
who until recently had long been closely associated with the country’s nuclear and missile programs.

The truth, he said, is that the ballistic missile failed to reach its predesignated impact point in Pakistan’s southwestern province of Baluchistan and its debris could not be found — something that would have undermined the missile’s deterrent effect if it were made public.

Military experts and strategists have pondered why Musharraf, immediately after he became chief of the army staff in October 1998, began planning the ill-fated incursions across the volatile Line of Control in disputed Kashmir, sparking the worst outbreak of fighting since the India-Pakistan war of 1971 even though he knew Pakistan could not prevail in an all-out conventional war with its neighbor.

During the May-July 1999 conflict, the two sides fought a two-month limited war in Kargil that led to over 1,200 fatalities and added to fears of a nuclear showdown before then-U.S. President Bill Clinton helped broker a ceasefire and Pakistani withdrawal.

Musharraf’s gamble in Kargil has since been interpreted by many as an effort by Pakistan, aside from gaining a tactical advantage by occupying dominating positions in the Kargil Heights, to test the deterrence value of its nuclear weapons.

The untold story, according to the scientist, is that Musharraf was unaware of the Ghauri missile’s faulty guidance system even as he oversaw the covert occupation by Pakistan troops and mujahedeen “freedom fighters” of the inhospitable, snowbound outposts in Kargil that the Indian Army had vacated for the winter.

He said Musharraf only learned the truth in March 1999 from Lt. Gen. Zulfikar Khan, who then commanded the army’s Combat Division.

Musharraf then ordered another Ghauri test, which took place on April 14, 1999, just three days after India tested its Agni-2 intermediate-range ballistic missile and several weeks before India detected the extent of the Pakistani side’s penetration in Kargil.


But this test also failed, with the missile overflying its target and falling across the border in the Sistan region of southeastern Iran, the scientist said. It, too, was publicly declared a success, however.

The scientist’s remarks were corroborated by two other nuclear scientists and another knowledgeable source who confirmed that the two missiles tested in 1998 and 1999 both failed to impact at the predesignated points in Baluchistan.

While Pakistan claimed the Ghauri missiles were designed and produced indigenously, they were actually Nodong missiles supplied by North Korea and re-engineered in Pakistan to extend their strike range.

The scientist claimed that after the second test, North Koreans were invited to a meeting at army headquarters in Rawalpindi, where they were confronted with the fault in their technology.

“The North Koreans started talking left and right but were told to open their eyes and take care of the guidance system in their Nodong missiles,” said the scientist, who was privy to the meeting. :)

Musharraf, he said, initially wanted to return the Nodong missiles to North Korea, from which it had imported 40 in knocked down condition in the mid-1990s. But then the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission undertook to replace the guidance with that of the country’s Chinese-aided Shaheen missile, he said. :?:
{Swapping guidance is not like exchanging vegetables in a recipe. So is the Nodong a PRC design?}

Last Nov. 28, the improved version of Ghauri was test-fired and the government — true to form — declared it a success. Soon afterward, however, it was found to have exploded in midair and rained metal debris over parts of Sindh Province.


Pakistan’s disgraced nuclear scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, whose laboratory develops nuclear warheads for Pakistan’s missiles, concedes there was a row about the Ghauri’s accuracy.

But he ridicules the assertion that Musharraf wanted to return them over their faulty guidance system, saying, “What difference does it make if a nuclear-tipped missile falls 1 km left or right of the predetermined impact point?” :)

Khan claims Musharraf merely sought to return them because Pakistan had insufficient funds to pay back what it owed for them. The Kargil crisis happened in the wake of six nuclear tests carried out by Pakistan in May 1998, which triggered sanctions against the country and led a drastic fall in foreign exchange reserves. Pakistan suffered a serious military and diplomatic setback after successful Indian military action and intense international pressure forced it to unconditionally pull back behind the Line of Control as part of the U.S.-brokered ceasefire. In his autobiography, published in 2006, Musharraf called it a “myth” that the two sides had come to the brink of nuclear war during the conflict and dismissed as “preposterous” speculation that Pakistan was preparing for a possible nuclear strike on India then. “I can also say with authority that in 1999 our nuclear capability was not yet operational. Merely exploding a bomb does not mean that you are operationally capable of deploying nuclear force in the field and delivering a bomb across the border over a selected target,” he wrote. Critics of Musharraf’s action often refer to the Kargil conflict as a “misadventure,” saying it was badly conceived and executed, while he wrongly assumed the world would sit back idly. Instead of considering the Kargil as a blunder, Musharraf, who has been living in exile since quitting politics in 2008, claims it actually brought the Kashmir issue back into international focus and helped pave the way for a solution. However, tension between the nuclear-armed neighbors, which have fought three wars since partition in 1947, two of them over Kashmir, has remained high since the Kargil conflict.



and

Ind Exp:

Badmash not totally in the dark

The operation by Pakistani soldiers to capture strategic heights in the Kargil sector in 1999 was a "four-man show" orchestrated by former Army chief General Pervez Musharraf, though then premier Nawaz Sharif was "not" kept totally in the dark, a retired Pakistan general has claimed.

Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz, who recently created ripples by acknowledging in an article that regular troops were involved in the Kargil operation, said the "misadventure" was a "four-man show" and details were initially hidden from the rest of the military commanders. When the operation began in the spring of 1999, it was known only to Musharraf, chief of general staff Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz, Force Command Northern Areas chief Lt Gen Javed Hassan and 10 Corps commander Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, Aziz told the Dawn newspaper.

Though Sharif has for long claimed that he had no information about the Kargil operation, Aziz said information he had gathered suggested the former prime minister was not kept "completely in the dark".

Aziz said he was personally not aware of what information had been shared with Sharif but recalled that another general had told him that Sharif had once asked during an informal discussion: "When are you giving us Kashmir?"

Aziz said the operation was a "failure" and the actual figure for Pakistani casualties was still not known. "It was a failure because we had to hide its objectives and results from our own people and the nation. It had no purpose, no planning and nobody knows even today how many soldiers lost their lives," he said.

A majority of corps commanders and principal staff officers were kept in the dark and even then director general of military operations Lt Gen Tauqir Zia learnt about the operation after it had begun, said Aziz, who was the head of the analysis wing of the ISI in 1999. Musharraf worked on a policy of "need to know" throughout his tenure as army chief and later president, Aziz said.

"The Pakistan Army did not plan the operation because Gen Musharraf never saw Kargil as a major operation. Only the FCNA was involved in it and perhaps a section of 10 Corps," said Aziz.

He also claimed the operation reflected a "major intelligence failure for India". "It was a miscalculated move", he said, adding that "its objectives were not clear and its ramifications were not properly evaluated".

Aziz said he first discovered that something was up in Kargil when he came across wireless communication intercepts that showed something was making "Indian forces panic". Aziz said he took the intercepts to then ISI director general Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt, who told him that the Army had captured some area in Kargil. He felt this was not right. "In his opinion, he should have been told about the proposed operation in advance so that he could have provided his analysis in advance," the Dawn report said.

A day later, Butt told Aziz he had been invited to the General Headquarters for a briefing on Kargil. During the briefing, director general of military operations Lt Gen Tauqir Zia said units of the Northern Light Infantry and regular troops had captured areas in the Drass-Kargil sector.

During the briefing, Zia also referred to the "objectives" of the operation, including cutting off India's supply lines to Siachen because of the closure of Zojila Pass on the Srinagar-Drass-Kargil-Leh road. This, Zia said, would block India's supplies to its troops in Siachen and subsequently force it to vacate the glacier. Aziz said this did happen because the planners "miscalculated the Indian response and overall repercussions".

In retrospect, Aziz said he feels that "even if only Northern Light Infantry men were up there, it would be wrong to suggest that the operation was carried out by paramilitary forces because NLI falls under the military chain of command".


ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49813
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 30 Jan 2013 21:56

saip wrote:This is the Nov 28,2012 test where they claim 'Pakistan succesfully test-fires Hatf-V Ghauri missile: ISPR'


Link

Broken parts that rained down in Sindh!

Link to broken parts

pentaiah
BRFite
Posts: 1676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby pentaiah » 30 Jan 2013 22:06

Sir Jis and Guru log

I had said said many a time about TSP missiles

ETA (expected time of arrival )is known but destination is unkown

SagarAg
BRFite
Posts: 1166
Joined: 12 May 2011 15:51

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby SagarAg » 30 Jan 2013 22:16

So going by the above claims and assertions..Indian intelligence must have this information..in that case IMHO we missed a Golden opportunity to strike them and strike them hard. :!:

pentaiah
BRFite
Posts: 1676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby pentaiah » 30 Jan 2013 22:22

our leadership too were of the thinking how does it matter if the missile fell left or right of the intended target.

imagine you are top notch Table tennis player and your opponent is hardly able to serve, you can win the game with out sweating
no? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :mrgreen:

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Sanku » 30 Jan 2013 22:28

SagarAg wrote:So going by the above claims and assertions..Indian intelligence must have this information..in that case IMHO we missed a Golden opportunity to strike them and strike them hard. :!:


The problem in striking Pakistan hard has NEVER been Pakistan, not in 47, not in 65, not in 71 and not in Kargil.

We can military dismember Pakistan any given day, while having a cup of darjeeling.

Military is only a part of the story though.

SagarAg
BRFite
Posts: 1166
Joined: 12 May 2011 15:51

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby SagarAg » 30 Jan 2013 22:41

Sanku wrote:
SagarAg wrote:So going by the above claims and assertions..Indian intelligence must have this information..in that case IMHO we missed a Golden opportunity to strike them and strike them hard. :!:


The problem in striking Pakistan hard has NEVER been Pakistan, not in 47, not in 65, not in 71 and not in Kargil.

We can military dismember Pakistan any given day, while having a cup of darjeeling.

Military is only a part of the story though.

^+1 Agreed.
Is the other part of the story being too soft in matters related to National security and integrity. Do we lack the no nonsense attitude towards threats to our Nation.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Sanku » 30 Jan 2013 22:50

SagarAg wrote:^+1 Agreed.
Is the other part of the story being too soft in matters related to National security and integrity. Do we lack the no nonsense attitude towards threats to our Nation.


Partially, and partially because Pakistan is only the Cats paw, beyond a point the cat has also to be dealt with.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6147
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nachiket » 30 Jan 2013 23:02

Sanku wrote:Partially, and partially because Pakistan is only the Cats paw, beyond a point the cat has also to be dealt with.

The problem here is 2-3 large cats sharing the same paw. Also, even from a pure military perspective, utterly defeating pakistan is not a walk in the park as you think it is.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Sanku » 30 Jan 2013 23:09

nachiket wrote:. Also, even from a pure military perspective, utterly defeating pakistan is not a walk in the park as you think it is.


Not a walk in the park, but not too difficult either. Esp now.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ashok Sarraff, Balaji, nash and 29 guests