Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Nov 2012 17:18

harbans ji,

johneeG ji's contention is somewhat different - not that burial practices along with religion was exported from India to Egypt, but rather that the burial practices in West Asia and North Africa are a consequence of localization of the funeral ceremony in religion, which had been exported from India to Egypt.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 29 Nov 2012 01:12

Since we talked about how Samskritam is the back bone of Indian civilization and how it formed our civilization and influenced PIE idea. Since we also talked about how Macaulayrian education is changing Bharaytiya civilizational landscape, I thought it is appropriate to post a paper which talks about attempts to revive Samskritam in India and the world.

Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home and in the World - Adi Hastings University of Iowa

Even though the author wants to talk about revival of Samskritam in India, you will soon realize that it is a critique of the methodology of Sanskrita Bharati. At the start of the article, he says Samskritam was priestly language and then he goes and connects Sanskrita Bharati with RSS to show sinister ideology of Sanskrita Bharati(SB) perhaps.

He then criticizes how domestication of Sanskrit is being done by SB. He doesn't propose any ideas of his own nor does he talk about how revival of Sanskrit is being done in India which the article is about actually.

Then in conclusion he also doesn't like the idea of priestly language getting domesticated:

But such an approach engenders a paradox of sorts: the laicization of Sanskrit, an attempt to create a prosaic form of the language. If successful this would divorce the language from just those associations which make the language seemingly worthy of speaking in the first place: its associations with orthodox Brahmanical traditions of philosophy, literature, liturgy, and ritual performance. And in fact, it must rely on similar sorts of baptismal rituals to translate the world into a Sanskrit everyday world, word by word, phrase by phrase.

So this paper is more on the lines of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I don't know who this Adi Hastings is, but to me he seems like someone who at least doesn't like the idea of spread of Samskritam in India.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 29 Nov 2012 02:26

Carl wrote:
JE Menon wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyiZiXQy ... re=related
Not directly about OIT, but subtly promotes it - VS Ramachandran cuts loose - especially in the first 30 mins.
But all I'm staring at is a sign: "...Youtube Account terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement."
Is this thread being watched?

FYI -
Dr. Ramachandran's grandfather was the eminent jurist (Sir and Roy Bahadur) Alladi Krishnaswami Iyer whose descendants have done very well in various intellectual fields. One son, Hon. Alladi Kuppuswami Iyer, was the Chief Justice of AP HC, Prof. Alladi Ramakrishnan founded the Indian Mat Sci institute, Prof. Alladi Prabhakar is a very inspiring teacher and was closely associated with BDL in his early RTI years. One of the grandsons, Prof. Alladi Krishnaswami at Univ. of Florida is a well known number theorist and organizes the annual Ramanujan Lecture Series.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Nov 2012 03:01

Can't find that video ... There were a few uploads, the full one and one clipped into 10 or 15 min bits...weird.

RajeshA, the video had vsr basically critiquing the Brits and the west in general abt their poor understanding of indian art and culture... For abt 30 mins or so before launching into his lecture of abt 1.30 hrs... Rambling talk and even had a couple of errors but didn't detract...

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Nov 2012 04:40

Aesthetic Universals and the Neurology of Hindu Art - Vilayanur S. Ramachandran

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2012 06:44

Thank you Hanumadu and Venug for your help

Meanwhile: pdf of Sanskrit names in Mitanni
http://azargoshnasp.net/history/Aryan/m ... nnames.pdf

Arun Gupta and others. This one is a keeper!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Nov 2012 10:34

That's the one Jhujar - thanks

guys pick it up asap...

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 29 Nov 2012 22:01

A post on Rajiv Malhotra's forum that provides information on Witzel chairing an event where Angana Chatterji is invited. Considering Angana's very visible Fai-type anti-Indian stances - this could be the clincher for at least some AIT Sepoys to re-evaluate their position ?

In Breaking India, Rajiv & Aravindan write about some US academics who produce literature with questionable funding that could aid in the disintegration of India or at the very least US intervention. Angana Chatterji was fired by the California Institute of Integral Studies recently but is now working at Berkeley University. Whats more, she will speak at a panel hosted by Michael Witzel of Harvard.

Monday, Nov. 26: South Asia Without Borders Seminar Series.

Angana Chatterji, Berkeley University will discuss "Naxalism and Orissa: Divergent Conflicts, Political Economy, and Minoritization." Sanjeev Uprety, Tribhuvan University in Kathmandu will present "Neat and Laundered Middle Classes and Third Gender Nepal Communist party-United Marxist Leninist: Masculinity and Politics in Contemporary Nepal." Michael Witzel, Wales Professor of Sanskrit, Department of South Asian Studies will chair the event.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 29 Nov 2012 22:53

What is "Berkeley University"? If it is UCB, then it is a definite improvement in Angana C.'s professional life.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 29 Nov 2012 23:43

Exile of Roma founders from India c. 1405 years ago - Genetic study in PLoS

Proponents of Aryan Invasion/Migration/Trickle-in/Tourist theorists should re-think and re-evaluate the formation of Indo-European languages after contacts between Hindu civilization people and .people of Ancient Near East.- Kalyanaraman

The origin and migration of Roma (Gypsy) has been curious among people across the world. Although the linguistic and genetic studies on European Roma have traced to Eurasia, the exact parental population group and time of dispersal has remained disputed. In the absence of archaeological evidence and with the availability of only scanty historical documentation of the Roma, have made the international team of scientists led by Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology Hyderabad and Dr. Gyaneshwer Chaubey from Estonian Biocentre and Tartu University, Estonia; involving scientists from University of Bern, Switzerland, University of Cambridge, UK and Stanford University, USA to trace the founder of the European Roma, using the Y chromosome genetic signatures. This study has been published in the recent issue of the online journal PLoS one.

Y chromosome is inherited from father to son; to grandson. Therefore, all the males of a family or a population evolved from a single founder male will possess the same Y chromosome. Based on the genetic signatures exist on the Y chromosome, every male could be assigned to a specific group (haplogroup), hence the paternal lineage can be traced, using these signatures.

Previously it has been shown that the European Roma possessed the Y chromosome haplogroup H1a1a however, the most recent common ancestor of European Roma, has not been identified because of the absence of similar data from their putative homeland i.e. India.

In this study, Scientists have screened approximately 10,000 males from around the world, includes 7000 males belonging to 205 ethnic populations of India, to discern a more precise ancestral source of European Romani (Gypsy) population.

“We have compared the worldwide phylogeographical data, for Indian H1a1a haplotypes with Roma and concluded that the aboriginal scheduled tribes and scheduled caste populations of northwestern India, traditionally referred as the Doma and also known as ‘Dalits’, are the most likely ancestral populations of modern European Roma”, said Dr. Kumarasamy Thangaraj.

“Our finding corroborate the hypothesised cognacy of the terms Rroma and Doma and resolve the controversy about the Gangetic plain and the Punjab in favour of the northwestern portion of the diffuse widespread range of the Doma ancestral population of northern India”, said Dr. George van Driem – a linguist from the University of Bern, Switzerland.

“It is noteworthy the closest as well as matching haplotypes with the Roma haplotypes were found only in scheduled caste and scheduled tribe populations of Northwestern India appear to corroborate the linguistic evidence and the most recent reconstruction of the likely ethnolinguistic origins and affinities of the gypsies, based on linguistic and Indological studies” said Dr. Gyaneshwer Chaubey another member of this team.

This study also estimated that the exile time of Roma founders from India was approximately 1405 years ago.

peter · Post by **peter** » 30 Nov 2012 04:50

AIT video. Can this be countered with an equally nicely done video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UDwSWxK ... re=related

peter · Post by **peter** » 30 Nov 2012 04:53

Rony wrote:Exile of Roma founders from India c. 1405 years ago - Genetic study in PLoS

Proponents of Aryan Invasion/Migration/Trickle-in/Tourist theorists should re-think and re-evaluate the formation of Indo-European languages after contacts between Hindu civilization people and .people of Ancient Near East.- Kalyanaraman

The origin and migration of Roma (Gypsy) has been curious among people across the world. [..]
This study also estimated that the exile time of Roma founders from India was approximately 1405 years ago.

What could have caused the exile? Wat it the Huns?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Nov 2012 05:15

shiv wrote:Thank you Hanumadu and Venug for your help

Meanwhile: pdf of Sanskrit names in Mitanni
http://azargoshnasp.net/history/Aryan/m ... nnames.pdf

Arun Gupta and others. This one is a keeper!

Thanks, yes it is a keeper!

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 30 Nov 2012 05:36

Just a thought, what if we hire some guys who are good with flash and some experience with documentary making? I can finance a bit. Not that I'm rich or have tons of money, but to get the ball rolling? If others are ready and think it is feasible, we all can pool in too. Drops make a ocean. It's for good cause too. I don't know how much it costs to make a 1 hr documentary. All the gurus here can discuss what to present and act as directors.

We have so many techies, we don't even have to move mountains, all can be done sitting in front of the computer, with division of labour we can put together something very nice.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 01 Dec 2012 02:53

KLP Dubey wrote: This seems like much ado about nothing. The link you sent seems to be a sophomoric lesson in Vedic Sanskrit. Neither the teacher nor the students have likely ever actually heard or pronounced the Veda correctly, nor ever looked up the pratishakhya.

These people seem to be suggesting that the Indian text editors were so disingenuous that they did not know about the oral transmission which preserves the meter exactly, nor indeed the pratishakhya whose rules back up the oral transmission. The text editions were actually just supplements/references, in which the sandhi rules were applied enthusiastically. It was obvious to the text editor that a knowledgeable person, having actually memorized the Veda from oral transmission, and knowing the pratishakhya, would produce the sounds with metric correctness. Therefore, he did not "idiot-proof" the textual version. Or perhaps that was the idea in the first place - i.e., to confound idiots who attempt to reproduce the Veda from a text, thereby ending up producing the wrong sounds and hence deriving no benefit from it.

What is most amazing is that the realization of this elementary fact is being claimed as some sort of a great "reconstruction" of the Rgveda! A simple reference to the pratishakhya (section XVII.21-26) would have cleared up all doubts on how to ensure maintenance of the meter. For example,

From the first sukta of the RV, we have Rk I.1.5 in gayatri (3 x 8 syllables)

yad anga dASushe tvam | agne bhadram karishyasi | tavetat satyam angiraH |

Obviously, as is well known and mentioned in the pratishakhya, one must resolve the coalesced vowel in the first pada, i.e. resolve "tvam" into "tuvam" (pronounce in slow motion) in order to obtain 8 syllables.

Similarly, the famous "Gayatri" mantra (RV III.62.10):

tat savitur varenyam | bhargo devasya dhimahi | dhiyo yo nah pracodayAt |

requires the resolution of "varenyam" into "vareni-am".

The main problem these confused people have, is the tendency to regard the Rgveda as an authored work in Vedic Sanskrit. The Rgveda is not in Vedic Sanskrit. It is a collection of primeval sounds, not of human agency. The Vedic Sanskrit phonetics, sandhi, and grammatical rules were derived from it but obviously cannot be "fitted" to it perfectly. The people writing BS articles like the one linked above need to make up their mind whether they are wanting to reproduce Rgvedic sounds (I very much doubt it - too much effort!), or whether they are wanting to study Vedic Sanskrit (the language constructed from observing Rgvedic sounds) for some "academic" purpose. The latter should be studied using the Brahmanas and Upanishads.

In summary - a case of the blind leading the blind!

KL

I transmitted the above to the owners of the website and got a reply as follows:

Howdy Mr. Gupta,

Thank you very much for taking the time to read and comment on the materials the Linguistics Research Center has placed online. We very much appreciate your opinion and have not meant in any way to offend or misinform.

I was not personally involved in the creation of the metrically restored Rig Veda text to which you are referring, but I think I might be able to explain some small bit of the perspective behind its creation.

I think you and the authors --- not to mention the vast majority of Indo-European historical linguists the world over --- are in heated agreement that the primary source of the Veda must be the oral tradition. So the Vedas were composed, and so they were transmitted, for hundreds of years at the very least. The average person is much quicker to pick up on mistakes of aural perception than on the miniscule typos that so often occur in the written transmission of ancient texts copied by hand, and so linguists will also generally agree that in the transmission of ancient texts, oral fidelity is typically greater than visual fidelity.

But at the same time, we must be open to the fact that not even digital recording is infallible or beyond degradation over time. It would be worth admitting the possibility of variation in oral transmission over a sufficiently long time, even though we would expect oral variation to be less than written variation.

In fact, we have a ready example of poor oral fidelity in another ancient poetic tradition related to the Vedic: namely, in the transmission of the Iliad in Greece. As it turns out, as the sound w fell out of the entire Greek language, it seems to have fallen out of the recitation of this culturally important epic. But indirect evidence, for example the fact that in the proemium te anaks is not written t' anaks, shows us that w was in fact present when the poem was composed (the sequence was originally te wanaks, the original w preventing the first e from eliding). So just as with digital media, degradation may occur.

Finally, I think a more nuanced reading of what the authors of the online text explain in their introduction (see link) suggests that, aside from simple errors of substitution (this link provides specific examples) which obviously break the meter but must come from a period much later than the date of composition, it is the actual written text that needs greater clarification. That is, in any text other than the Vedas, it is clear that य symbolizes one syllable, ya. But certain instances of this written symbol in the Vedic texts require the same symbol to be interpreted as disyllabic: i-a. Obviously, as you are schooled in the traditional recitation of the corpus, you will likely pick up on such instances without missing a beat. But for scholars thousands of miles away, with little in the way of funds to travel and experience first-hand such recitation, the printed text may be all they have to work with. I suspect the primary efforts of the authors centered on making sure that the printed text was interpreted properly so as to facilitate an accurate understanding of traditional recitation.

I hope that helps shed some light on the perspective behind the online materials. I apologize for any confusion that may have arisen, and I thank you on behalf of the entire LRC for taking the time to make us aware of your concerns.

Sincerely,
Todd Krause

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 01 Dec 2012 12:53

Not really on AIT/OIT but confirms a late outward migration from India.
-------------------------------------------
Study traces modern gypsy bloodline to India
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/fea ... 150910.ece

Hyderabad, Nov. 30:

What do the Roma, the gypsy people of modern Europe, and the Dalits of north-western India have in common? You will be surprised to know, that they share a common ancestry.

The origin and migration of the Roma Gypsy as well as their lineage have been subjects of curiosity for anthropologists. There is no archaeological evidence of the early Romanis and historical documentation of these populations is scarce.

Genetic studies done by an international team of scientists led by Kumarasamy Thangaraj of the Hyderabad-based Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology has thrown some light on the subject. The study concluded that the aboriginal scheduled caste and scheduled tribe population of north-western India, traditionally referred to as Doma and also Dalits, are the most likely ancestral population of the modern European Roma.

The conclusion was made after screening of about 10,000 males around the world, including 7,000 from 205 ethnic population of India, to discern a precise ancestral source of the European Romani population. Based on the genetic signatures existing on the Y chromosome, every male could be assigned to a specific group (haplogroup), hence the paternal lineage can be traced, using these signatures.

In human populations, the Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. Therefore, all the males of a family or a population evolved from a single founder male will possess the same Y chromosome. The study, by matching the haplogroups of the Roma and the India tribes, found similarity and contiguity that led to the conclusion that the Domas or dalits are the ancestral population, explained Thangaraj.

Another significant conclusion was that the early Romanis migrated from India to Europe around 1,405 years ago.

The findings establish similarities between Roma and Doma ethnicities, and lay to rest the theory of inhabitants from Indo-Gangetic plain and Punjab being the ancestors of the Roma Gypsies, said George van Driem, a linguist from the University of Berne, Switzerland, in the study published in PLoS, a open source journal.

Ch. Mohan Rao, Director, CCMB, said the study provides DNA-based evidence that support the idea that north-western part of India might be the original place for Roma populations. Similar studies from the lab have provided information about the population structure of India, African origin of Siddi populations, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,
Virendra

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Dec 2012 16:23

Ḍoma (Sanskrit) People, also known as Domba, Dom, Domaki, Dombo, Domra, Domaka, Dombar, Dombari

Roma seem to be related to these.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 02 Dec 2012 10:48

venug wrote:Just a thought, what if we hire some guys who are good with flash and some experience with documentary making? I can finance a bit. Not that I'm rich or have tons of money, but to get the ball rolling? If others are ready and think it is feasible, we all can pool in too. Drops make a ocean. It's for good cause too. I don't know how much it costs to make a 1 hr documentary. All the gurus here can discuss what to present and act as directors.

We have so many techies, we don't even have to move mountains, all can be done sitting in front of the computer, with division of labour we can put together something very nice.

Venug ji,

I am busy through end of January and thus not posting here (although lurking). I am writing to let you know that I like your idea. You have also voiced it in the past.

The way I see it.. is a brochure-10 page, a book (for those who want to read the details in depth) and a documentary....essentially same message in three formats (may be also a Power point slides pack). I will do my part.

If we can get the draft ready --storyboard, Power points, mind map etc... it may be worth checking with Dr. Manish Pandit (of UK) who made 'Krishna - The Myth or Reality'. He has done a fine job of making that documentary. I am not talking of the content itself..but rather video shoot, recording, editing etc.

Regards,

Nilesh

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 02 Dec 2012 10:56

I am reading works of few American (non Indian) researchers and their work provide additional support for my proposal of 5525 BC = Submergence/flooding of Dwarka.

I have taken advice of ravi_g seriously and will not divulge the details for now. Interestingly enough 'An eccentric American character' from American bible belt happen to read my book over Thanksgiving week, contacted me via FB/email and told me about the work of these researchers! Interesting!!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Dec 2012 18:50

More on the Roma origins in India story in TelegraphRoma genetic study

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 04 Dec 2012 23:30

RajeshA wrote:Ḍoma (Sanskrit) People, also known as Domba, Dom, Domaki, Dombo, Domra, Domaka, Dombar, Dombari

Roma seem to be related to these.

From what the traditions look like in Roma society I would say they are a mix of amongst others the Doms. Coincidently you will find very little by way of differences in traditions between Doms and others around them.

The wiki article on Doms in India that you have linked seems to be horribly propa_andu probably written by some Sickular Scholar.

I am from Uttarakhand which you can rest assured is a better sanctuary of ancient colloquial traditions then most other sub communities in India because of its inaccessiblity. Surprise of all surprises even the Bangani language was found in Uttrakhand region. Due to this I feel confident enough to extrapolate (pls excuse the choice of word) as the basic colloquial history of others in India as distinct from the rationalist history propounded by Govt. of India. Now going by our vernacular traditions about the Doms :
1) "Their traditional occupation was singing, dancing, music, smithing, and jeweler arts"; and
2) They are also the people who do the cremations; and
3) They have different traditions about things to do with the Cows and Buffalos. Doms are not offered Tea made of Milk by the very old people. This particular tradition has not been continued by Uttranchallis in Cities.

Now the surprising part is the #1 is a quote but is not a point from the wiki article about Doms. It is from the wiki article about Romani society. Which does a better job of telling the truth. Even the description of Romani society given under the heading "Family and life stages" is virtually an exact replica of what the vernacular traditions are or rather were, in Uttranchal. #2 and #3 are inputs that I have had from my parents. However even these cannot be considered water tight points. In my case my mother's uncle used to do gold jewellery work and my father to this day teases my mother for it. Strangely enough he was also the village Sarpanch. Similarly Saraiyans, another community of musicians/dancers may not be treated the way certain other professions would get treated. And the profession is not exactly discouraged by even the older people.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Dec 2012 00:56

Nilesh ji, If I can be of any help, please let me know. I can do some menial work

, as I am not an expert, but can contribute to the best of my ability. Just that I feel a strong urge to get the word out and make it known to everyone more on the lines of educating others who can't make up their minds or who don't know. Wiki pages are manipulated, heavy funding in western institutions which support PIE and pro-AIT research, the media like the one posted by Peter ji will never let the truth be known. And I think there is no point when just a handful know through debates etc and are convinced. If we are to achieve anything, the message has to reach aam admi, they have to know, the message has to be very very clear. This also has consequences for India's security and unity.

I know it takes time, many don't have time for this, leave alone money, but someone has to start it, some how it has to be done. Just thought gurus here are the right people.

So in case you need any help, please let me know, I will do my best to help you in anyway I can.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Dec 2012 07:47

venug wrote:Since we talked about how Samskritam is the back bone of Indian civilization and how it formed our civilization and influenced PIE idea. Since we also talked about how Macaulayrian education is changing Bharaytiya civilizational landscape, I thought it is appropriate to post a paper which talks about attempts to revive Samskritam in India and the world.

Licked by the Mother Tongue: Imagining Everyday Sanskrit at Home and in the World - Adi Hastings University of Iowa

Even though the author wants to talk about revival of Samskritam in India, you will soon realize that it is a critique of the methodology of Sanskrita Bharati. At the start of the article, he says Samskritam was priestly language and then he goes and connects Sanskrita Bharati with RSS to show sinister ideology of Sanskrita Bharati(SB) perhaps.

He then criticizes how domestication of Sanskrit is being done by SB. He doesn't propose any ideas of his own nor does he talk about how revival of Sanskrit is being done in India which the article is about actually.

Then in conclusion he also doesn't like the idea of priestly language getting domesticated:

So this paper is more on the lines of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I don't know who this Adi Hastings is, but to me he seems like someone who at least doesn't like the idea of spread of Samskritam in India.

The goal of SB is not just the spread of Samskrit as a spoken language. The expectation is some people will eventually graduate to learn the scriptures. I didn't read the paper, but what SB does is provide an avenue to people who want to learn Samskirt but have no way of doing it and I don't see anything wrong in doing it. The process of reviving Samskrit has to start some where and if it is through spoken Samskirt, so be it. The adults who learn Samskrit will get their kids involved too and to start them young is the primary goal of SB. IMHO, there is no need to over analyze what SB does.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Dec 2012 08:18

Lalmohan wrote:More on the Roma origins in India story in TelegraphRoma genetic study

The original paper is here
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0048477

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Dec 2012 16:46

http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... study.html

What is of significance is that a 2009 and 2011 research by Dr Thangaraj and Dr Chaubey in association with another group of international scientists proved that the Aryan-Dravidian theory was bunkum. “Human genome sequencing and genetic studies proved that Indians all over the sub-continent had the same genetic traits. The physical traits differed because of external factors like climate, food habits and living conditions. We have found that there is no scientific validity for arguments like Aryan Invasion or Aryan-Dravidian theory. Classifications based on caste and religion are of recent origin and has nothing to do with genetic traits,” said Dr Thangaraj and Dr Chaubey.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Dec 2012 23:56

Drought May Have Killed Sumerian Language

Because no written accounts explicitly mention drought as the reason for the Sumerian demise, the conclusions rely on indirect clues. But several pieces of archaeological and geological evidence tie the gradual decline of the Sumerian civilization to a drought.
The findings, which were presented Monday (Dec. 3) here at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union, show how vulnerable human society may be to climate change, including human-caused change.

Around the same time, 74 percent of the ancient Mesopotamian settlements were abandoned, according to a 2006 study of an archaeological site called Tell Leilan in Syria. The populated area also shrank by 93 percent, he said.

See how the above seems to parallel the supposed demise of IVC/SSC.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 06 Dec 2012 00:34

venug wrote:Just a thought, what if we hire some guys who are good with flash and some experience with documentary making? I can finance a bit. Not that I'm rich or have tons of money, but to get the ball rolling? If others are ready and think it is feasible, we all can pool in too. Drops make a ocean. It's for good cause too. I don't know how much it costs to make a 1 hr documentary. All the gurus here can discuss what to present and act as directors.

We have so many techies, we don't even have to move mountains, all can be done sitting in front of the computer, with division of labour we can put together something very nice.

venug, good idea. Would appreciate it if you can take the initiative and start the fund and let us know where and how to contribute. I may not be able to contribute in any meaningful way except financially ( $100 - $200, hey! I'm a a lowly programmer/analyst

). I'll try and drum up some contributions from my friends and colleagues.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 06 Dec 2012 01:16

shyam ji, I think we first need a plan as to what and how to do it, the medium(I prefer Youtube, we Injuns love movies, thrown in a rain song or two and we can go blockbuster

). But if we can come up with what needs to be presented, what the documentary is about, a sort of road map, then we can create more interest among the gurus to rope them in. I think right now this thing seems to many as a pipe dream. As and when we can draw a road map, I think people will surely contribute more financial(which is secondary) or through technical write ups and scripts. I am ready to contribute as much as I can once we know what beast we are dealing with. But greatly appreciate that I am not alone in the feeling.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 06 Dec 2012 20:27

Venu saar, It's true that we need a plan. I think we can do the planning and the fund drive in parallel. We got to start some where. The plan may also be constrained by the funds raised.

Rajesh saar, please create a separate post for collecting ideas on what should go into the documentary. Creative folks can then, hopefully, come up with a way to implement those ideas.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 06 Dec 2012 22:09

The DNA of Fairy Tales: Their Origin and Meaning
By Renee Hall

These fairy tales are not senseless stories written for the amusement of the idle; they embody the profound religion of our forefathers, . . . -- W. S. W. Anson, Asgard and the Gods, p. 21

In this new millennium, fairy tales are flourishing. The children's sections of libraries and book shops are bursting with beautiful editions of well-known fairy tales, with exotic, vivid illustrations. Their collections are worldwide: Russian, German, Japanese, Chinese, Persian, Scandinavian, African, Australian, North American, Yugoslavian, British, and more. To have survived over the ages, the traditional fairy tales must have very strong and special genes -- mere entertainment is very short lived. What is the secret of their longevity?

Let's look at an Indian version of a perennial favorite: Once upon a time a Hindu Rajah had an only daughter who was born with a golden necklace. In this necklace was her soul, and if the necklace were taken off and worn by someone else, the Princess would die. One birthday the Rajah gave his daughter a pair of slippers ornamented with gold and gems. The Princess went out upon the mountain to pluck flowers, and while there one of her slippers fell down into a forest. A Prince hunting in the forest picked up the lost slipper, and was so charmed with it that he desired to make its owner his wife. He made his wish known everywhere, but no one claimed the slipper, and the poor Prince grew very sad. At last some people from the Rajah's country heard of it and told the Prince where to find the Rajah's daughter. He came and asked for her to be his wife, and they were married. Sometime after, another wife of the Prince, jealous of the Rajah's daughter, stole her necklace and put it on her own neck. The Rajah's daughter died, but her body did not decay nor did her face loose its bloom, and the prince went every day to see her, for he still loved her very much. When he found out the secret of the necklace, he got it back again and put it on his dead wife's neck. Her soul was born again in her, she came back to life, and they lived happily ever after.

The lost slipper is also found in an ancient Greek legend which tells that while a beautiful woman, named Rhodope (the "rosy- cheeked") was bathing, an eagle picked up one of her slippers and flew away with it. The eagle carried it off to Egypt and dropped it in the lap of the king of that country. The slipper was so small and beautiful that he fell in love with the wearer of it, had her sought for, and when she was found he made her his wife.

As you will have guessed, Cinderella is the English variation of this story -- "Little Polly Flinders who sat among the cinders." I don't know if it came to England from the German Aschenputtel, the French Cendrillon, or the Scandinavian Askungen -- "ash child." Here we have Indian, Greek, French, German, Scandinavian, and English versions of the same tale, with each country leaving its particular imprint or flavor on a basic story. In an interpretation offered by Elsa-Brita Titchenell in her Masks of Odin, she calls Askungen (Cinderella)

a scion of the "noble ash tree," Yggdrasil, the Tree of Life, which bears the worlds with all their life forms on its branches. All living beings are children of the cosmic Ash Tree from the minutest particle to the largest. What is more, each of us is not only a member of the cosmic tree, but a tree of life in his own right.

The ash child is also cyclically reborn from the ashes of its former self, like the phoenix. -- pp. 6-7

Such fairy tales belong to an oral tradition handed down by country people from generation to generation, and only relatively recently written down. Who were their original authors? Scholars of comparative philology and mythology agree that there is indeed a common source. John Thackray Bunce, author of Fairy Tales: Their Origin and Meaning (1878), says that "Celtic, Teutonic and Nordic myths echo the eternal and universal themes and vivid imagery found in sacred books of the Hindus and Persians -- the Vedas and the Zend Avesta . . ." Swedish scholar Fredrick Sander, who published his Rigveda-Edda about 1890, was convinced that Norse mythology came from India and preserves Hindu myths more faithfully than do the classic Greek and Roman, which are much disfigured (Masks of Odin, p. 22).

So our humble fairy tale has a royal -- or rather divine -- lineage. In The Secret Doctrine we read that "the Rig Veda, the oldest of all the known ancient records, may be shown to corroborate the occult teachings in almost every respect" (2:606), and that the Vedas are "the mirror of eternal Wisdom" (2:484). Is this the reason that fairy tales managed to survive the arrival of Christianity in Europe? Fanatics of the new religion caused a devastating blow to folklore and old traditions, which were outlawed and banished as pagan. We are all too familiar with the cruel intolerance and harsh treatment of so-called heretics who dared to show any allegiance to their old customs and beliefs. Perhaps disguised by the fairies themselves, these simple nuggets of pure wisdom escaped the persecution, dogma, and deterioration of formal religious institutions over the ages. Fortunately, distant Iceland escaped this persecution, and there "Saemund the Wise lived and wrote down the poetic Elder Edda. . . . The myths have given rise to numberless folktales and fairy tales which have been adapted to various media for expression, from nursery rhymes to grand opera, . . . and they include collections made by students of folklore such as the brothers Grimm in the nineteenth century" (Masks of Odin, pp. 23-4).

While the ancient records of the Veda and Edda are recognized as the reservoir for myths and their smaller cousins, the fairy tales, the clue to their primary source of inspiration may be found by considering hints in some of the world's oldest traditions, which tell of humanity's golden age of innocence when higher beings impressed our minds with primal truths. This reminder gives us the freedom and confidence to interpret and understand the fairy tale according to our own wisdom.

Many well-known fairy stories share a common format: a forlorn, orphaned young person, cast out from his or her former home, after various trials and tribulations is rescued and united with a loved one -- a parent or royal personage. Cinderella serves as a good model: the orphaned child is trapped and bullied by her wicked stepmother and ugly stepsisters, meaning that the human soul is estranged from its spiritual nature or "father in heaven" and comes under the unpleasant control and influence of the lower side of nature. These are not her natural blood relatives, suggesting that the human soul rightly belongs to its better side. Dislodged from its proper status, the soul struggles to recover its legitimate state. By purity and virtue it gains the support and help of its fairy godmother, the spiritual soul. Many tales use the godmother and giver of gifts to represent the soul's finer qualities unfolded through merit. "This elven power uniting the human soul with its divine source is the channel (or elf) which confers on its child all earned spiritual endowments" (Masks of Odin, p. 6).

The analogy of our dual nature thus provides the key for decoding these fairy tales. What a brilliant method of teaching and passing on knowledge of our composite nature, which can be applied on a macrocosmic level as well. Maybe that's the reason why the tales feel comfortable and familiar to us, as if we've always known them -- and of course we have. Whatever the story, it is simply a mirror image of ourselves. The cast of king, queen, prince and princess, father, fairy, witch, frog, giant, ogre, elf, dragon, white horse, beast, orphan child, is part and parcel of each one of us. Our strengths and frailties are portrayed in separate roles, each playing a part in our evolutionary growth, until after the struggles and obstacles -- the unfolding of the story -- we finally find the prince or princess, our higher self, and marry to live happily ever after . . . until we turn the page to the next story.

Did you realize that ancient wisdom was told to you when you were at your mother's knee? And that you parents, grandparents, uncles, and aunts are in turn passing on these eternal and vital truths to the next generation of children whenever you tell one of these classical fairy tales, show a video, or take them to see a pantomime or Walt Disney film? Snow White, Aladdin, Puss in Boots, Jack and the Bean Stalk, Beauty and the Beast, and the rest show no sign of waning in popularity even in our busy, noisy age. Unalloyed, these tales continue to enchant, puzzle, teach, and inspire, not only with ethics and altruism, but the esoteric meaning of life itself. Let's hope that like the Sleeping Beauty, those who are still slumbering will wake up to their message: "know thyself."

(From Sunrise magazine, August/September 2000; copyright © 2000 Theosophical University Press)

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... -rhall.htm

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A link on plight of romas or gypsies:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A6.htm

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venug saar and vnmshyam saar,
just ideas, ignore them if they are silly:
I think there needs to be two parts. First part must be refuting the AIT. The second part must be proposing OIT.

two stages:
a) Refuting AIT.
b) Proposing OIT.

The best part is, while AIT is being refuted, one can suggest OIT indirectly or subtly. So, that when the one is ready to propose OIT, the audience will be more ready to accept it.

Proposing OIT:
Proposing OIT is trickier than it seems. Firstly, one needs to sit down and collate the whole gamut of myriad data points. Wove them into a rational narrative that will be acceptable to the people. Give some corroborating evidence to bolster the theory.

I think, at this stage, OIT is still half-baked, not the idea but narrative. I have no doubt that OIT is the truth. But, how exactly it came to be is the question. It is the details that need to be filled up. And I believe that more things have their roots in India than one may initially imagine.

Thats the reason I have been concentrating on supposedly mundane things like attires, fairy tales, ...etc. I would prefer an OIT that can tie all these things.

Refuting AIT:
I think taking down AIT is an absolutely must, whether proposing OIT as an alternative or not. Moreover, I think there is already ample material to shred AIT to pieces and deny any intellectuality to it.

The way to go forward in this aspect, IMHO, is as follows:
1) Talk about the background before AIT was proposed. That means, how the europeans lived in 1500s. And how the India was. What happened next and how europeans 'discovered' other cultures and the subsequent imperialism. How europeans were impacted by the 'discovery' of ancient cultures that were far superior to their christian culture?! How it lead to orientalism. How it was followed by contrived theories to 'prove' european superiority in the face of contrary evidence. And How AIT came to be proposed.
2) How sanskrit was discovered. The grudging acknowledgement that sanskrit was the most ancient mother language of all languages including the european ones. And then, how PIE came to be proposed.
3) Role of imperial Brits and Nazi Germans in AIT and PIE.
4) How PIE and AIT were subsequently kept changing to adapt to the changing data points. When a previous position is untenable due to the exposure of its absurdity, a slightly variant position is taken to 'prove' AIT or PIE.
5) The self-contradictions in AIT and PIE.
6) The lack of any corroborative evidence to prove AIT and PIE. And how they are just mere speculations based on vivid imagination.
7) How subsequent 'researcher' built on previous 'researcher's' imagination without verifying.

In points 1), 2) and 3), Ram Swarup's Hinduism: Reviews and Reflections is a good source.
Here is a link to my post on this topic: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=7000

As to what format would be best:
I think there are several types of formats that can be used for this kind of work:
a) A documentary type video(say a duration of 1-2hrs).
b) A pdf or word file or blog.
c) A powerpoint presentation
d) short youtube videos(say a duration of less than 5-10 mins). Preferably a youtube channel with several such short videos.

I don't think any of these requires much finance. The documentary(of 1-2hrs) would be most difficult to make. But, that can be best to way to get anyone to give a single and simple shot of info.

PDF or Word file or blog can be exhaustive.

Powerpoint presentation would be to make main points, quickly and effectively.

youtube channel with several short youtube videos can be best for publicity. This, IMHO, would be most effective(if the idea is to reach as many people as possible).

Important point is to present things so that it is understandable to laymen. Perhaps, give lots of examples and sprinkle some witty humour to keep the people's attention, at least initially. Once, they are hooked up, they can also contribute(especially Indians).

I may not be able to contribute in anyway, so just giving ideas that others can develop...

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RamaY wrote:JohneeG garu,

It is possible that most of these areas could be forests thousands of year's back. We need to keep the timeline in mind too.

RajeshA wrote:
johneeG wrote: Saar,
What I had in mind was that there is no indigenous Egyptian religion apart from the Indian religion.<snip>

Similarly, my hypothesis is that the Egyptian religion was Indian religion through and through which was periodically reviewed; either the egyptians traveled to India or the Indian masters went to Egypt.
johneeG ji,

what disconcerts me about this theory is that we need to keep the timeline under scrutiny.

Burial customs in ancient Egypt are also over 5000 years old. These customs can thus not be explained by any Egyptian-Indian contacts two thousand years ago.

Now there is also no need to discount that even the 5000 old Egyptian customs may have had Indian influence, but we will have to dig up a lot more evidence.

Saars,
I understand there are 2 points here:
a) When did Egypt become a desert? or when, how and why did that region(consisting of egypt, arabia and israel) become a desert?
b) When did egyptians start burying their dead?

a) When did Egypt become a desert? or when, how and why did that region(consisting of egypt, arabia and israel) become a desert?

AFAIK, there is no single explanation for this. There seem to be wild speculations. Some think that the desert came to be 2000 yrs ago, while others think it came to be 4000 yrs ago. For all we know, it could have been a desert 10,000yrs ago(rhetorically speaking). Also, some think that the desertification was quick process taking only a 100 yrs, while other think that it was a gradual process. Again, in simple terms, it means that people have no idea. So, it is open to speculation.

b) When did egyptians start burying their dead?

This question is never taken up, correct me if I am wrong. 'Researchers' assume that burying is the natural way. Perhaps, this presumption on part of the 'researchers' explained away by their own cultural background where burying is the norm.

So, no one takes up this question.

Lets say we take up this question, then what will be the answer? One way to determine when the egyptians started burying their dead is by dating the oldest pyramid. Obviously, the date of the oldest pyramid(or tomb) must be the time when the egyptians started burying their dead.

But, for that, we need to assume that the pyramids were built for the purpose of burying the dead. This is the assumption or hypothesis accepted widely. But, P.N. Oak raises a point on this issue. He asks,"How come only the tombs(pyramids, in the case of egyptians) get discovered? Where are the corresponding palaces, forts, gardens, temples,...etc?" This is a very important point. If an egypitan Pharaoh built a exuberant pyramid for himself and it has survived so many years, then where are the palaces, forts and temples built by that Pharaoh? Moreover, only one Pharaoh cares about his own tomb, while forts, temples and palaces are used by generation of Pharaohs who would keep repairing them. So, theoretically, temples, palaces and forts must outlast tombs/mausoleums. This is a vital point, both for eyptian history and indian middle ages history.

Also, it seems to me that the total number of pyramids is far less than the number of Pharaohs who are supposed to have ruled egypt.

So, P.N. Oak suggests that Pyramids, given their long survival, must be palace, fort or temple(or a combination of all). That means, Pyramids were built as a fort-palace-temple complex. But after a long time, when these pyramids were ruined, they started to be used as burial places. Thats his hypothesis.

Now, what I am saying is that there is no clear date on either of the two points:
a) Burial practice and
b) desertification of that region.

In short, the timeline is not clear in both cases.

So, I am saying that perhaps the two are related and burial practice became popular with increasing desertification. There is nothing to suggest the burial practice was followed before desertification, if there was such a time in egyptian culture.

There are two possibilities:
a) 'Hindus' of egypt saw that egypt was a desert and hence, cremation was not possible. So, they buried their dead.
b) 'Hindus' of egypt cremated their dead in egypt. But, as egypt started becoming a desert, they resorted to burial practice.

The word 'Hindus' is being used in broad sense of the term. What I am trying to say is the all the ancient cultures were related to each other and had a cultural unity. The variations are only local customizations. The only ancient culture that survived with least damage is 'Hinduism'. So, I am calling the ancient egyptians as 'Hindus' because ancient egyptians are like lost cousins/brothers of ancient Hindus of India.

The speculation is the India was the mothership and others were like outposts/satellites. Perhaps, that is the reason for the survival of ancient culture in India...mothership survived, while the outposts were runover.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 06 Dec 2012 23:37

JohneeG garu and shyam ji,

I do like the idea of dividing into AIT proposition, refuting it and OIT proposition. But for now, just gathering some points, some more points adding to JohneeG ji's list, we can think more, edit and order the way we see fit, just wanted to list out what I have in mind, here:
AIT/AMT:
1. What is AIT/AMT?
a.who are aryans, according to them, and according to us Indians.
2. What is the historicity of the ait Debate
a. origins:
i.who proposed it.
ii. who are the people who proposed it
iii. why did they propose it
iv. how did they propose it
b. what was going on in Europe (goes to motication)
i. how advanced were europeans at that time
ii. was europe already advanced at that of proposition
iii. what is imperialism
iv. what was the mindset of the imperialist and what did they think of the
people whom they ruled.

3.Role of Rig veda
a. What is Rg Veda (just enough for people to appreciate what it is)
b. what does Rg veda contain
c. was it composed? why and why not.
d. what was the language used in Rg Veda
e. difficulties in understanding Rg Veda
f. how difficult is it to understand, how much practise is required, this goes
to show it is not easy for some TFTA to just compose it.
g. why is it that it is not composed by non-indians
h. the mention of sarasvati river, location, evidence, how it is being twisted
etc
i. rishis and their genealogy, talk about talageri's work, show direction of flow of people
j. the asuras and devas, zoroastrianism, it's similarities, which came first
and why.
k. how vedic influnced old iranian and the relationship between Rg Vedic and
zoroastrian gods/asuras

4. why is it important to understand who and where it was composed?
a. what referenced does Rg veda have ->geography, flora/fauna/topography
mentioned
b. Gods mentioned in Rg Veda, a brief description who they are
c. importance of soma

5. Horse
a. origins
b. domestication ->evidence
c. domestication denial in India, why it is denied.
d. horse burials and sacrifices, links to Rg Veda
e. chariots and raths
f. importance of spoked wheels and mobility arguement
g. evidence found in india, where, what, cave paintings
h. rib count argument, mention in Rg Veda
i. mare's' milk argument.

6.PIE and Sanskrit
a. what is PIE.
b. brief introduction of experts of this field and their affiliations and
motivations to study
c. where is it spoken and when ->show how real it is, helps to show clips of
language spoken in lord of the rings
d. how is it reconstructed
e. what is the need to have PIE, similarities to IE.
f. centum and satem (geopgraphic locations) and tocharian anamoly
g. limitations of PIE
h. time frame of PIE why is it restricted to 1900BC
i. similarities to Sanskrit
j. similarities of sanskrit to Other indian languages, dravidian etc
k. need for PIE to be Steppe in origin
l. language used by hitties, use of indian gods in official documents
m. old iranian, how close it is to sanskrit
n. is it the mother of Sanskrit or is sanskrit PIE?
p. is sanskrit an aryan language? did only brahmins speak it?

7. IVC/SSC
a. where are they located
b. time line of the civilization
c. when the demise happened
d. what does it have to do with AIT/AMT
e. what evidence was collected to say AIT/AMT happened
f. the role of climate and when did saraswati dry up
g. seals found, decipherement
h. sarasvati river location, settlements found, satellite images
i. gods, continuity of gods to this day
j. are the IVC/SSC people dravidian?
k. was there an invasion or migration, why? why not?
l. dwaraka and other settlements and proofs, their time lines
m. seal decipherement, sullivans's work and others, is it dravidian? is it
sanskrit?

8. population genetics
a. what is it? what are genes
b. how is it used to study genealogy
c. oppenheimer's study
d. diversity and other terms
e. how can one say one people came from another
f. what does it say about diversity of genes in india
g. ani/asi, is it really a devide, does it mean there are dravidians and high
caste aryans?
i. what genes are most diverse in indian subcontinent
j. r1a1 and subclads, diversity, in relation to europeans ones, wht does it
say about AIT

8. archeo-astronomy
a. mahabharata brief dates
b.ramayana brief dates
e. astronomy basics
f. nilesh ji's work

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2012 23:40

venug I have started writing. Many of your headings are covered. Will take some time.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 06 Dec 2012 23:41

shiv garu thanks

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Dec 2012 23:52

JohneeG, here are some links on Indian Folklore and Fairy Tales:

Joseph Jacobs who studied Folklore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Jacobs

His compilation and commentary on Indian Folklore:

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?a ... =_contents

Same in pdf form from Penn State:

http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/j ... -Tales.pdf

To cut to the chase, please read his notes and refs section linked here:

http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?a ... tory=notes

...
I have edited Sir Thomas North's English version of an Italian adaptation of a Spanish translation of a Latin version of a Hebrew translation of an Arabic adaptation of the Pehlevi version of the Indian original (Fables of Bidpai, London, D. Nutt, "Bibliotheque de Carabas," 1888).
In this I give a genealogical table of the various versions, from which I calculate that the tales have been translated into thirty-eight languages in 112 different versions, twenty different ones in English alone. Their influence on European folk-tales has been very great: it is probable that nearly one-tenth of these can be traced to the Bidpai literature. (See Notes v. ix. x. xiii. xv.)
...

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 07 Dec 2012 01:05

^^^
Ramana garu,
it seems Brothers Grimm, german brothers, are credited with collecting the european fairy tales. I think if one could find some connection between Grimm brothers and India, then it would be a clincher, or atleast a significant pointer.

Of course, one could try to find the origins of each fairy tale individually, by comparing with similar themes in Indian literature. For example, it seems there is some similarity in Snow white and Padmavat, according to wiki:

Paralleling the stepmother's question of her magic mirror, the Indian epic poem Padmavat (1540) includes the line: "Who is more beautiful, I or Padmavati?, Queen Nagamati asks to her new parrot, and it gives a displeasing reply...";

Padmavat or Padmawat (Hindi: पद्मावत) is an epic poem written in 1540 by Malik Muhammad Jayasi in the Awadhi language. It is the first important work in Awadhi.
This epic poem is a fictionalized version of the historic siege of Chittor by Alauddin Khilji in 1303 AD, who attacks Chittor after hearing of the beauty of Queen Rani Padmini, the wife of King Rawal Ratan Singh.[1]

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Venug saar,
thats a very good index. I think one can create short youtube(2-20min) videos one each topic. Once the list is complete, then one can use these short videos to compile a documentary type video(1-2hrs). The material of the youtube videos can be directly used, or it can be a rehearsal for more professional job on documentary video.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Dec 2012 01:21

In the meantime I will research on how to make an Audio Textual book using this information.

I will check Indian IT/Content companies which does this work and ask for estimates.

We can make it a good e-book (with video & graphics) that can be sold on the likes of Amazon.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 07 Dec 2012 01:47

JohneeG garu, please no ji, garu/saar for me. i think may be we should wait for shiv ji's book? the arguments will have more force. And I think we have to discuss more regarding what each episode should contain. I never made youtube videos, but can learn, wish it can have some fancy professional touch to give it an uber TFTA look.

Rama garu, yes please, I have a friend who is good with Maya, and flash, but clueless so to how to go about depicting the narration. May be we all can pour in and cross the bridge when it comes. I am all for easy accessibility for everyone, if done right, it can be educational.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Dec 2012 01:56

Sure, I am thinking about making it like some high-end magazine stuff that shows for example the description of Nilesh Oak's experiment and then the video of the renderings by that astronomy s/w and then perhaps some images/videos on the epics/archaeological/historical artifacts.

peter · Post by **peter** » 07 Dec 2012 18:48

johneeG wrote:^^^
Ramana garu,
it seems Brothers Grimm, german brothers, are credited with collecting the european fairy tales. I think if one could find some connection between Grimm brothers and India, then it would be a clincher, or atleast a significant pointer.
[..]

The (younger?) Grimm came up with Grimm's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law.

He knew Sanskrit very well. So must have read all the panchtantra etc.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 12 Dec 2012 09:19

The Sun God Mitra in Europe - http://truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm#.UMf_C-R1-EU