Artillery Discussion Thread

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sarabpal.s
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 24 Nov 2012 21:14

Don't confuse with Half breed defense :cry: reporter.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 24 Nov 2012 21:54

Singha wrote:the budget as usual sounds highly unrealistic. one cannot even get a proper pistol for that figure anymore.


I think the project should be about up-gunning the OFB 45cal Bofors design to 52 cal. No need to design the entire gun from scratch. Will save time and resources.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 26 Nov 2012 00:51

Wasn't DRDO going to have a 155mm gun ready for testing by the army this December?

Is this new DRDO project meant to preclude the army buying the gun being developed by Kalyani Forge?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Nov 2012 06:02

^^they should get an OKAY in writing from IA as a stake holder.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 26 Nov 2012 06:23

IIRC, OFB Kanpur made Bofors 155/39 guns were supposed to be out in December, this was to be followed in June 2013 by 155/45 version.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby krishnan » 30 Nov 2012 12:33

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 331981.cms

JABALPUR: 155/45 calibre gun - the Indian updated version of the Bofors -- is ready for its final in house trial. The special unit of the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) has completed the job and the weapon will be transported to central proof establishment (CPE), Itarsi range, for field testing.

Talking to TOI on Wednesday GCF general manager and project director of weapon development composite team SP Yadav said initially LPR Khamaria was shortlisted for testing exercise. However, the state-of-the-art gun, after technical improvement now, has a firing range of 40 km. This rules out the Khamaria range because of the populated peripheral area beyond 16 km of LPR, Yadav said. The experiment therefore could be risky so a decision about a shift in venue has already been taken, he added.

For transporting it to the next destination in Itarsi, a trailer has been hired and the D-Day has been fixed for November 30. After this 155/45 will be handed over to the Army and would be tested in Pokharan before making the final cut.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby saje » 30 Nov 2012 13:11

krishnan wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhopal/Bofors-gun-ready-to-take-field-test-in-Itarsi-range/articleshow/17331981.cms

JABALPUR: 155/45 calibre gun - the Indian updated version of the Bofors -- is ready for its final in house trial. The special unit of the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) has completed the job and the weapon will be transported to central proof establishment (CPE), Itarsi range, for field testing.... and the D-Day has been fixed for November 30. After this 155/45 will be handed over to the Army and would be tested in Pokharan before making the final cut.


See how things move quickly when you copy? And we unnecessarily blast our poor Chinese neighbours for copying, on the 'China Military Watch' thread. From hereon, our motto should be 'Copy karo aur copy karne do' ! :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Nov 2012 13:48

Saje-> For all you know OFB/ DRDO might have been working on this for 25 years. how we know we deceided to copy in say 2009 and have a gun now?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2012 14:06

saje wrote:
And we unnecessarily blast our poor Chinese neighbours for copying, :


Pah What is unnecessary about blasting the Chinese? When did they morph into our "poor Chinese neigbours that others should feel pity for them as you do? Don't mock them. Don't needle them Live and let live etc. They ain't gonna return the compliment

Why link our copying with not mocking them. We copy and we mock also. Just like they do to us. There is no rule that we must not copy if we mock or that they will not mock of we don't mock but only copy.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby member_20453 » 30 Nov 2012 14:47

This is not even copying, this is local manufacture, we didn't steal anything, the blueprints and TOT was paid for long ago. We are just finally making what was suppossed to be made in hundreds years ago. Offcourse, current version will be highly upgraded in comparison to the original drawings. :)

Hope they are cleared for mass prod asap after extensive trials. We can certainly order another 500 of these highly updated versions which still outperform similar systems both in Pak and China.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Nihat » 30 Nov 2012 15:01

shiv wrote:
saje wrote:
And we unnecessarily blast our poor Chinese neighbours for copying, :


Pah What is unnecessary about blasting the Chinese? When did they morph into our "poor Chinese neigbours that others should feel pity for them as you do? Don't mock them. Don't needle them Live and let live etc. They ain't gonna return the compliment

Why link our copying with not mocking them. We copy and we mock also. Just like they do to us. There is no rule that we must not copy if we mock or that they will not mock of we don't mock but only copy.


Shiv , don't you think you're being a bit too touchy about people who are either scared of or defend china . Some are always going to exist and put forward their view from time to time , its an irritant but it ain't going away.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JTull » 30 Nov 2012 16:15

It's easy to copy when the designs/blue-prints were available but gathering dust, and completely different thing to reverse engineer it. That's what Chinese are good at and needs to be acknowledged. We had the Bofors guns for decades, did DRDO reverse engineeer anything? Now Mr Saraswat has suddenly woken up and aiming deliver a completely new one ( :eek: ) in a short period of time.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby subhamoy.das » 30 Nov 2012 16:39

One metaphore which comes to mind regarding copy is the exam. Remember how the guys who copied to get good marks in some occasions did not fare well when subjected to real competition where the questions were a bit twisted and they had no clue to solve them because they did not make mistakes and learn the hard way. I think the same applies to the Chinese folks. They fade when put to real competition.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby mody » 30 Nov 2012 17:16

Well its not a straight forward copy. The OFB guys have toiled for years trying to produce the various spares for these guns, as none were available from the OEM.
They decided to make the complete gun from the Blueprints and drawings, after they had already successfully made many of the spares for the guns, including the all important barrel of the gun. The specifications about the metallurgy of the barrel etc., was not available from the OEM, I guess, and the same had to be developed by the OFB.

Once they knew they could make many of the components and parts, they decided to try their hand at the complete product, using the drawings and blueprints available with them.

So this is not some that they could have done, say in early '90s. Perhaps they could have started with the process about 5-7 years back, but back then the IA was still counting on the import lobby to deliver the goods and was not really interested in these kinds of solutions. A half dozen blacklisting's later, the scene changed ;-)

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2012 17:21

Nihat wrote:
Shiv , don't you think you're being a bit too touchy about people who are either scared of or defend china . Some are always going to exist and put forward their view from time to time , its an irritant but it ain't going away.

That is a valid point. But guess how brave we are when it comes to cursing Indians when they want to be friends with Pakistan?

You see the bottom line is that friendship with Pakistan is attempted only by defective Indians who are traitors. Criticism of China is done by only defective Indians who are blind and incapable of seeing China's strength. The common denominator is some Indians get criticized in both cases. In one case it is for being too friendly with Pakistan and in the other it is for not being friendly/symathetic enough towards China.

With Pakistan any Indian, be they generals or politicians or journalists is called a traitor or coward for talking of giving Pakistan any concession. With China - anyone who talks about China with derision and dislike (as others talk about Pakistan) is wrong. Why are attitudes diametrically opposite towards nations who wish us no good and have cooperated to bring us down? Why must an Indian be criticized for not making India like China and another Indian criticized for not hating Pakistan?

Why don't we congratulate Pakistanis when they fly a JF 17? Why congratulate China for launching a copy Su-33? Aren't both countries sworn enemies of India whose actions put Indians lives at risk 24x7? What does this mean to you? It tells me something about Indian attitudes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby JTull » 30 Nov 2012 20:55

shiv, everyone salutes the rising sun, as they say. There's lot about China that needs to be admired and learnt from. Retrospectively, if we had a choice whether we could reverse-engineer a Mirage-2000 or a Mig-29 or just the engines for the two or have 200 of our own (less-capable reverse-engineered but domestic) fighters flying then I'd choose to go China way. All of IPR and contracts should be subservient to national needs and Chinese know that.

Re: Pakistan, there's not much to admire other than their single-minded devotion to see India suffer. They succeed at it but in only a limited way. So clearly they're not very good at it.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Katare » 30 Nov 2012 21:33

Septimus P. wrote:This is not even copying, this is local manufacture, we didn't steal anything, the blueprints and TOT was paid for long ago. We are just finally making what was suppossed to be made in hundreds years ago. Offcourse, current version will be highly upgraded in comparison to the original drawings. :)

Hope they are cleared for mass prod asap after extensive trials. We can certainly order another 500 of these highly updated versions which still outperform similar systems both in Pak and China.


I think the new gun is only based on the Bofors, so it's indian gun and it'll be called J-40 or WS-40 or Type-40 :lol:

There are follow-on versions coming from DRDO with 50+ KM range, it'll be called J50 or WS-91 :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2012 21:43

JTull wrote:shiv, everyone salutes the rising sun, as they say. There's lot about China that needs to be admired and learnt from. Retrospectively, if we had a choice whether we could reverse-engineer a Mirage-2000 or a Mig-29 or just the engines for the two or have 200 of our own (less-capable reverse-engineered but domestic) fighters flying then I'd choose to go China way. All of IPR and contracts should be subservient to national needs and Chinese know that.

Re: Pakistan, there's not much to admire other than their single-minded devotion to see India suffer. They succeed at it but in only a limited way. So clearly they're not very good at it.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think that we would be laughing and mocking China much more if more of us felt we could dominate them in the way we feel we can dominate Pakistan. There is an element of a feeling or weakness (if not fear) in relation to China that a lot of Indians share. I believe that we speak of learning from China because we feel vulnerable and that China can stand up to everyone but we can't. We want to emulate China in the hope that we might get where they are. But we desire to get where they are because we think they are in a better position and we are not there. Hence the need to kick Indians who mock China and the need to kick Indians who cosy up to Pakistan

However they are adversaries, if not enemies. Their actions reek of pure vicious enmity to me and I see the two positions of having an enemy and yet admiring him as worthy of emulation as contradictory positions that are incompatible. In a sense it is an admission of Indian inferiority and acceptance of Chinese superiority. It is a towel being thrown in the ring. I believe (my personal opinion) that no matter what, no matter how much better or stronger your enemy is you should not end up admiring him. You have to hate his guts and detest everything about him and be ready to fight him at all levels and beat him or die trying. But that is only my personal opinion. I am not asking everyone to share it.

But yes even if you do admire him and want to emulate him, I think it is wrong to hit out at other Indians as being inferior or stupider or being responsible for India being less than your enemy. If you feel inferior to your enemy don't blame that inferiority on the incompetence of other Indians and imagine that you are on a higher plane and claim that a kick would make other Indians better. If you are the one doing the admiring you should pull yourself up to China's level rather than accusing all other Indians of being responsible for keeping India down. Not all Indians are as enamoured of Chinese ways and methods as some of their compatriots. Not all want to emulate China. But one group of Indians does not need to curse fellow Indians simply because they see China (or Pakistan) differently. It is the cursing of Indians while admiring China that i object to most vehemently. By all means worship the rising sun, but don't blame cowdung worshippers for your own feelings of insecurity/weakness.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Dec 2012 01:16

shiv wrote:With Pakistan any Indian, be they generals or politicians or journalists is called a traitor or coward for talking of giving Pakistan any concession.
Includes poor BRF posters also :x

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Dec 2012 04:22

ShauryaT wrote:
shiv wrote:With Pakistan any Indian, be they generals or politicians or journalists is called a traitor or coward for talking of giving Pakistan any concession.
Includes poor BRF posters also :x

Actually it is the constitution and the law which calls people giving Siachen away as traitors. We are strict constitutionalist onlee.

PS: On the other side, I think Shiv is saying that we should have an adversorial relationship with China too, as China has wrt India - instead of today's Ostrich approach.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 01 Dec 2012 05:16

shiv wrote:With Pakistan any Indian, be they generals or politicians or journalists is called a traitor or coward for talking of giving Pakistan any concession.


Right-Minded Indians would have no issues if India finally accepts LOC as Border (Thats what should be called a concession from India to Shitistan).
But to offer Siachen or any Territory under Indian Occupation after sheding a lot of blood to defend/win would rightfully be called a Traitor. :evil:

Any doubts of how Pakistanis will behave if we were to ask them in the name of Bhaichara to similarly evict from just a small part of POK?

The Pukis cant keep good on a cease fire agreement, have wilfully violated all the agreements so far and here we have people advocating handing over Strategic chunk of area which will only further incentivize targeting even more territory.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nachiket » 01 Dec 2012 05:20

In any case this thread isn't the place to discuss China or Siachen.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 01 Dec 2012 05:22

There is no other option but the Ostrich approach seeing the dice so heavily loaded in favor of China (in terms of force levels, infra etc).The day there is a semblence of some parity is when we will see the Peacock soaring proudly in the sky.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 03 Dec 2012 03:40

Tata to unveil 155 mm howitzer.

The Tata group is to unveil India's first indigenously developed (DDM?) 155 mm howitzer in New Delhi on Monday.

The 155/52 mm howitzer is mounted on an eight-wheeled Tata truck for enhanced mobility. The gun was developed by its defence subsidiary Tata Power Strategic Electronics Division (SED) this year. The 'mounted gun system' can fire a six-round salvo on a target 40 km away in less than three minutes.

The truck-mounted howitzer will be displayed at an army seminar at the Maneckshaw centre tomorrow. The rollout comes even as the Indian Army and the Ministry of Defence have struggled to import howitzers over the past 25 years.

The Army acquired its last howitzers over 25 years ago, 410 FH-77B howitzers from AB Bofors of Sweden in 1987. Since then, the army's howitzer arsenal has been critically depleted.

Tata Power SED, the defence arm of the $ 100 billion Tata group, began work on its 'Mounted Gun Project' over two years ago. The prototype gun was rolled out of the Tata Power SED facility in Bangalore's electronic city this October. It will spearhead the group's bid for the Army's requirement for 814 mounted gun systems for Rs.8500 crore.

The Tata gun is India's first new howitzer since its purchase of Bofors guns. The subsequent bribery scandal torpedoed the acquisition of additional howitzers from Sweden.

The Bofors howitzers performed spectacularly in the Kargil conflict of 1999. The Indian Army wants to buy over 2200 such howitzers in five different categories but has been unable to do so because of other bribery scandals involving firms like Rheinmetall, Singapore Technologies Kinetics, Soltam and Denel.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Vipul » 03 Dec 2012 03:43

Tungsten supply glitch hits Pinaka rockets.

A foreign vendor haggling over prices has hit the production of Pinaka rockets, an important weapon system of the artillery. The rockets are made in the ordnance factories including that in Ambajhari and are also suitable for mountain warfare.

Its warheads are filled with tungsten balls to enhance lethality and can be fired up to a range of 40 kms. However, supply of processed tungsten, which comes from France, has been held up as the international prices of the metal have shot from around $35 a kg to close to $50 in recent times. The supplier now wants higher rates and ordnance factory is not willing to shell out the extra amount. This has affected supply of tungsten hampering the production of rockets, said a source closely involved with the affairs.

The production has slowed down, said a source in the factory. The army has ordered over 1,500 rockets. However, the current output is almost half of the required quantity. This is almost 30% less than last year's tally in same period, the source said.

Responding to TOI query, a senior officer of the Indian Ordnance Factory Service (IOFS) cadre admitted the stalemate over tungsten prices. "Such problems are routine in course of production and we will overcome it soon," he added. The government is scouting for new vendors but a decision has not been taken yet, added another source.

Earlier, the chairman of Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) had called for self-sufficiency in processing of tungsten. He added that at present its non-availability had not led to a shortfall in production of Pinaka rockets but dependence on foreign vendors was a matter being addressed. Tungsten is key material in making of warheads. Warheads are filled with thousands of tungsten balls which disperse when the rocket hits the target.

This is pre-fragmented high explosive type warhead usually used in the rocket. The tungsten balls are supposed to have a capacity of creating damage in an area of over 10,000 square metres. Another warhead that throws out burning fragments has also been developed.

Tungsten is a preferred due to its hardness. It is processed and received in powdered form and then made into balls at the ordnance factory. It is also used as an armour piercing material in tank shells. Pinaka rockets have been designed by Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). After over a decade of being taken for development, the OFB got an order for bulk production in 2007.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 03 Dec 2012 05:34

if true, TATA has done it!.. more data is needed to prove it is indigenous, but surprising.. and whatever the case, i am really happy our private industry is seeing the limelight.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Gurneesh » 03 Dec 2012 05:57

I think they are referring to this Denel gun shown by TATA in the last Defexpo

Image

Image

Though it is mounted on TATRA 815-7

PS. taken from a Kunal Biswas post in mil photos forum

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby SaiK » 03 Dec 2012 08:20

shameless reporters! not just them, they put entire nation to hang heads in shame.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 03 Dec 2012 10:01

Gurneesh wrote:I think they are referring to this Denel gun shown by TATA in the last Defexpo <SNIP>


Thanks for posting this.

Compared to the competition (CAESAR from NEXTER and ATMOS 2000 from Soltam), this baby seems to have a larger footprint and weight. These other guns were made with deployment in foreign theaters in mind where air-mobility using likes of C-130 is the key. Consequently, these weigh under 20 tonnes.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Hobbes » 03 Dec 2012 11:18

Tata Power seems to have tied up with Cenzin of Poland according to this document:

http://www.aviotech.com/pdf/Aviotech_Thought_Leadership_Series_-_Field_Artillery_Rationalisation_Mar30.pdf. Check the table on Page 5.

Cenzin's website is at http://www.cenzin.com.pl/.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby nits » 03 Dec 2012 17:00

We can go for comparative Trial between Tata's and Ordnance Factory Board Gun Trial... :idea:

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2012 18:26

We can invite norinco as well, so long as ia places a big order.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby KBDagha » 03 Dec 2012 18:36

Livefist has uploaded the pic of theTata gun. Looks like the Denel gun on Tata truck chassis.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rohitvats » 03 Dec 2012 18:44

Link to Livefist story on the TATA Power SED gun.

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/12/tata-reveals-155mm-howitzer-gun.html

Is it me or does the gun-system feature an articulated latter half - the actual platform on which the gun is mounted.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby karan_mc » 03 Dec 2012 18:56

Who is the OEM of the Gun ??

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 Dec 2012 19:06

Singha wrote:We can invite norinco as well, so long as ia places a big order.


:rotfl:

That was awesome!

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby rkirankr » 03 Dec 2012 20:30

A noob question, If IA looks at the gun and says no I want more Natashas, but the pakis look at the gun and say, we want it, can Tatas sell it to them?

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 03 Dec 2012 20:58

karan_mc wrote:Who is the OEM of the Gun ??

Denel T5-52. Link:>http://www.military-today.com/artillery/t5_52.htm
BWT I thought Denel was still blacklisted.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby soumik » 03 Dec 2012 21:05

Image

The picture of the Gun on the TATA 8X8 chassis from livefist

Image

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Postby abhik » 03 Dec 2012 21:29

rkirankr wrote:A noob question, If IA looks at the gun and says no I want more Natashas, but the pakis look at the gun and say, we want it, can Tatas sell it to them?

I'd guess they could go directly to the South Africans. :roll:


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