Cruise Missile Test in Pakistan: Final Thread

Sunil
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Cruise Missile Test in Pakistan: Final Thread

Postby Sunil » 22 Aug 2005 20:54

Hi,

I am not quite done with this yet.

Irrespective of whether there was any test of any cruise missile at all. I want to make absolutely sure that the crux of my post has gone through and I would like Pillai and Syed Yusuf to confirm that they atleast have have understood what I was saying.

For the benifit of all concerned.

What is the real risk in the missile test?


The only risk in this test is Pakistani propaganda that this is a nuclear tipped submarine launched cruise missile. This indicates a desire on part of Pakistan's Army top brass to mate nuclear missiles with their warheads. That imo is the only risk.

So what is the problem?


The stability of the deterrence regime to a rogue launch cannot be guarenteed if missiles are mated to warheads. From the Jihad perspective this poses two major problems:

1) The rationality of the pro-Jihad factions is not known. If there is an Islamist takeover in Pakistan and nukes are mated to missiles, the inability to predict the rationality of a Jihadi regime in Pakistan will provoke a period of extreme instability in the India-Pakistan deterrence scheme.

2) It is well accepted that Pakistan's nuclear strategic community has often relied on making threats of smuggling nukes onto foreign soil and carrying out nuclear attacks. It is simply too risky to smuggle an entire nuke into a foreign country at a time of high tension. A more reliable approach is to over time smuggle a nuke in kit form and assemble it inside the target city. Such a nuke would be ineffective until the core had been mated to it and until a sufficiently committed person, a Jihadi suicide attacker was put next to it awaiting a launch code. The presence of a Jihadi next to a fully weaponized nuke poses an unmanageable risk.

Ah... nukes in my cities?Are you out of your mind?


Yes - in 1983 - Abdul Qadeer Khan alluded to the presence of such weapons in Indian cities. At the time he also suggested that if India made any move to attack Pakistan - major cities "would be hit in five minutes".

In 2001 - two incidents occured that were of interest. Firstly a Pakistani was caught trying to cross from Jordan into Israel with something that was variously described as "a dirty bomb" or "a backpack nuke". And the Pakistanis picked up a Jihadi for interrogation in Karachi and a report of the interrogation submitted to the American FBI by the ISI stated that the Jihadi claimed that atleast one nuclear bomb had been smuggled by Osama Bin Laden into the continental US.

Pakistanis resident in Britain even after the tragic events of 7/7 continued to talk in overt terms about the possibility of smuggling a nuke into London and detonating it there. Everyone knows who these Pakistanis are and their association with the LeT and the LeT's association with the Pakistani government.

A US Congressional committee containg leading lights of Pak-friendly type on the hill in the late 90s repeatedly pointed to the possibility of a nuke being smuggled into the US.

What if it is a mind game? what if they have no nukes in cities?


We do not know if this threat is verifiable - but the Pakistanis were keen in both cases to ensure that this possiblity register on the minds of both American, Indian and Israeli policy planners. This to me indicates a desire to project this threat into the minds of all concerned.

The Pakistanis continue to play on this theme today. The thing about mind games and political theatre is that if you slip up for one second, you look very very bad.

Okay so now what?


The first thing is to understand that there is no way to distinguish between Pakistani intentions on the JDAM issue and their intentions on their missile based deterrence ideas, so when you talk to them you have to keep both of those possibilities in mind.

The second thing, India has a stated No First Use doctrine, Pakistan has a first use doctrine. Extending India's "No First Use" statement to imply "we will be nuked first" is incorrect. Ultimately these are simply things nations say but saying this at a time when the Pakistanis are unsure of what they want to do - incentivizes nasty behavior on their part. If you don't want to do that - then one should just keep quiet.
Last edited by Sunil on 24 Aug 2005 01:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Anoop » 22 Aug 2005 21:22

Sunil,

Not to interrupt your train of thought, but one aspect of A.Q. Khan's threat puzzles me.

If in 1983, the time taken to detonate a nuke in Indian territory was "minutes" and if this threat was credible, all components had been assembled and was only awaiting "launch" codes. What has happened to make that threat recede? Have the Pakistanis taken back the cores they smuggled in? When, how and most importantly, why?

The other option is to treat Khan's threat as sabre rattling - an expression of intent rather than capability. And to treat successive Pakistani attempts to smuggle such nukes as attempts, not successes.

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Postby Sunil » 22 Aug 2005 21:31

Continuing on:

Why would the Pakistanis want to do this?


Shiv has come up with a very satisfactory answer to this. Their military leadership is feeling impotent and is losing moral authority to rule in Pakistan. So this is largely a PR stunt to shore up the sagging image of the military. As Shiv suggests the easy way for them is to provoke GoI. They have not succeeded.

Wow... Did they want to provoke America also?


Unlikely, well atleast not directly, I suspect that the US went along with this little drama because they felt that a secure leadership in Islamabad was preferable to an insecure one.

I don't think that the US appreciates what will happen if the Pakistanis, esp. the Jihadi variety are emboldened. The consequences of mating warheads to missiles are all too obvious to Americans so there is no way that they can publicly/privately endorse any Pakistani ideas about that.

So why arent the Non Prol guys all over this?


Apart from the fact that the Non-Prol guys are the US equivalent of the Pravda in Soviet Russia when it comes to nuclear issues - the Non-Prol commuity - atleast the yammering kind isn't geared to think about the JDAM threat. That is relatively new to them. They keep discussing it as "proliferation". This is a term from the Cold War era and they prefer to discuss things in clean terms like "missile","warhead","launch codes" etc... They incapable in their state of mental stupor to sense and respond to something as agile as a terrorist nuclear strike. That is why most of the showboys of the Non-Proliferation community have been kept out of the counter proliferation initiatives. Their mindsets are not in keeping with the times.

It is plausible that they retained Pak centric notions about provoking India on the Brahmos issue with this Pakistani cruise missile test. This is complete nonsense since the Brahmos is an anti-ship missile system and not a "nuclear capable land attack system". Someone should explain to these Non-Proliferation people that the transfer of cruise missile technology from China to Pakistan is shooting visible holes in the MTCR promises that they have managed to "secure" from PRC. Before they rush to diss the India-US nuclear agreement - I think they should first address their failure to contain China's proliferation.

If indeed the Pakistanis are keen to move to a mated deterrent. Then they will most certainly want to test a fully mated system. This will involve them breaking the PTBT. The NP community in the US should consider itself free to ignore the problem in Pakistan until it becomes too late and like North Korea Pakistan claims to have conducted a 5 Kt construction explosion.

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Postby Sunil » 22 Aug 2005 21:38

Anoop,

The Pakistanis later told us that the "cores weren't mated with weapons" or something to that effect and Pakistan's friends in the US and UK said reassuring things, but the matter has never been completely cleared up. Either ways Ravi Rikhye wrote his book about a planned Indian military attack that never materialized and he dumped the blame on the political leadership of the country without ever taking the trouble to explain what it is that the political leadership had to face down. No wonder he is png in India and so popular reading in Pakistan.

A very easy thing would be interview A Q Khan personally but as I understand from the Americans that is something that will lead to the downfall of the Musharraf regime.Until a televised retraction of this statement in Urdu by A Q Khan himself is broadcast over the airwaves it cannot be said that the threat has receeded in any way.

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Postby P Babu » 22 Aug 2005 21:39

Here are my 2 cents..

1. There is no verifiable information about TSP's CM capabilities other than their announcement + Magnified photograph of Sivagasi imported rocket.
2. US/Indian government are playing cool and it looks like they know something that we don't.
3. I think we are overblowing the NFU policy. When it is time for war, the Indian government will throw the NFU policy in the dumpster..It is just the words, not a binding treaty of something.
4. TSP is just playing to its local junta. Look at the adreneline that is flowing through the TSP sites. So, it is working for their H&D and both India/US are playing along.
5. Currently, if TSP is sending Nook thru reguarly rocket, we don't have enough ABM to shoot those things down. So, CM doesn't add any extra threat per se. Our CM was not for TSP, we could just sneeze loud and blow few cities in TSP out..We don't need CM for that..

Added later.. I wouldn't necessarily fall for Psy-ops by Syed & co..

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Postby Anoop » 22 Aug 2005 21:44

Gentlemen,

If we are going to repeat ourselves, the third incarnation of this thread will serve no purpose that the second one hasn't.

So, let's take it for granted that the Pakistanis cannot develop or arm cruise missiles.

Fine. Now what? That's what Sunil is trying to explore in this thread and let's give him some time to develop that. Maybe we'll all learn something, maybe we won't.

Repeating ourselves certainly is not going to teach us something new.

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Postby P Babu » 22 Aug 2005 21:47

Anoop,

That is what I was trying to answer too. Since there is no verifiable new threat, we keep working towards out real enemy and not sidetracked toward's its poodle.

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Postby Sunil » 22 Aug 2005 21:57

So whats the prognosis here?


Well for starters... lets see... the cruise missile test was to preserve Pakistan Army's honor and dignity (H&D) so a public retraction of the "nuclear tipped submarine launchable cruise missiles" claim would amount to a loss of Pakistan's national manhood and that is unacceptable to them.

At the same time though uncomfortable - the ambiguity present in the lack of a public clarification will be comfortable to some Pakistanis. They will think that Pakistan has deterred its enemies by pretending to mate weapons to warheads. Unfortunately I don't think that people who feel this way are seeing the full impact of this mess.

The Americans for their part are keen to see Musharraf strengthened but at the same time want nothing that the NP types can jump on. So they will play down the test and take up the mating issue with the Pakistanis "sub fora" (as TSJ put it). It makes sense - pushing the thing in public will force the NP community to publicly explore the China-Pak connection. That will not be pretty - esp at a time when China really holds a knife to the Dollar's throat - so it has to be managed off the books and the incompetent imbeciles who constitute the bulk of the Non-Prol Community cannot be allowed to see it. The Americans will simply make it go away - their press will ignore it and the SD spokesman will shrug and walk away from it.

This kind of public show will enable the US to maintain its good offices in Pakistan and India. Ofcourse we will see a more eager salesforce walking around India with pamphlets of Aegis and missile defence systems. Whenever possible the American visitors to India will whisper the word "China" into our ears. And eager fools will fall victim to their wiles. I personally feel that all American claims of helping India to fight the "real enemy China!!" etc... should be met with loud laughs but hey that is just my opinion.

So the Pakistanis will be allowed to get away with this?


No not exactly. The Pakistanis have damaged their standing in India's eyes with this episode. The Peace process relies on trust and it is difficult to build trust in an environment of public debate that focusses on a very negative image of Pakistan.

I find it difficult to agree to any arms sales to Pakistan in this environment. I don't know how the security of the international shipping lanes and the US fleet engaged in anti-terrorism operations will be guarenteed without an immobilization of Pakistan's Navy. There certainly cannot be any more cruise missile tests as that would risk the possibility of them testing a fully mated configuration.
Last edited by Sunil on 24 Aug 2005 01:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Sunil » 22 Aug 2005 22:09

If I find that confusing --- will the Pakistanis understand?


I hope so. It isn't that hard to understand really esp. for the Pakistanis .. after all it boils down to the following points.

1) Pakistan cannot ever mate its warheads to its missiles and this fact is public knowledge now. Any attempt to do so will be met with the most severe response from all sides.

2) Pakistan's over-reliance on the Jihadi atom bomb threat for strategic leverage makes it impossible for it to even talk about having submarine launched nuclear weapons.

3) The inability to provoke India into a manageable response creates yet another Kargil type situation where the Pakistanis have to rely on the Americans to bail them out. The Americans will demand their pound of flesh and when they do - the stability of the musharraf regime will suffer another blow.

4) The only use the test of that weapon had was to feed the imagination of the younger generation of Pakistanis - but perhaps what the propagandists of Pakistan do not realize - this youthful enthusiasm will turn against the leadership of Pakistan if the leadership is seen to fail. While we talk in clinical terms about immobilizing the PN, the younger people in Pakistan are dreaming about hundreds of cruise missiles raining on India and Afghanistan - and when told that cannot happen - they will react very negatively towards their government.

5) The smarter Pakistanis will realize that a "first use" posture generally makes any movement/change in Pakistan's nuclear position very very painful and difficult. However these Pakistanis will also be smart enough to realize that the current regime (and by consequence Pakistan) cannot survive if it moves to "no first use".

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 22 Aug 2005 22:24

The Pakistanis have damaged their standing in India's eyes with this episode.


Nhooooo!!!! :eek: :eek:

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Postby Anoop » 22 Aug 2005 22:35

Sunil,

Pardon me for bringing up this link between the peace process, probable threat of JDAM since 1983 and trust between India and Pakistan, yet again but something does not compute, boss.

If the peace process hinges on trust, how much trust will the GoI have towards Pakistan that has not quite taken away the JDAM threat since 1983? I'd say none. Given that we see moves towards peace, I'd say that the JDAM threat has reduced to become insignificant (or more likely, there never was a credible threat in the first place).

In this light, Pakistani deterrence calculations (against a conventional attack; they do not need a deterrence against a nuclear attack given India's NFU doctrine) hinge on the availability of nuclear warheads that it can use in the event of being overwhelmed. Post 9/11, while the existence of those warheads remain debatable, what is not debatable is the time gap between those (non-existent?) warheads and their delivery mechanisms. Namely, a JDAM threat against India is virtually non-existent.

If a JDAM option exists, it is pointed at countries outside the reach of Pakistan's conventional delivery mechanisms. For consider, the ultimate value of a JDAM threat - an open ended (in time and scope) threat that can be used to extract concessions. What can India give Pakistan? Not Kashmir and they want nothing else. Western targets, on the other hand can continue to feed their failing economy.

Therefore, it is Pakistan's interest to keep the notion of a JDAM alive, but pointed at more lucrative targets than India. We in India, should not believe that a Pakistani JDAM threat to us is more credible with their new found talk of mating SLCMs with nukes.

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Re: Cruise Missile Test in Pakistan: Final Thread

Postby Rudradev » 22 Aug 2005 22:41

Sunil wrote:
The first thing is to understand that there is no way to distinguish between Pakistani intentions on the JDAM issue and their intentions on their missile based deterrence ideas, so when you talk to them you have to keep both of those possibilities in mind.

.


This is the point that is still not entirely clear to me.

If there are two issues here:

A) Pakistani intentions on a JDAM.... Jihadi sitting with mated or unmated nuclear weapon in an Indian city.

B ) Pakistani intentions on missile based deterrence ideas.

Pakistan can make (and does make) all sorts of claims relating to B all the time. Case in point is this "Babur will be an SLCM of 1000km range" claim.

Seems to me what you are saying is... since the claim about Babur has been made... it indicates that they are thinking of mating warheads to missiles... therefore it concurrently increases the danger of A.

But it appears that A is a threat of many orders of magnitude greater than anything they could ever claim under B. So much so that any of the rhetoric/mindgames/political theatre/tall claims made under the category of B, become laughable by comparison.

There is no way of knowing if the jihadis and JDAMs under A are even under the control of the same C&C infrastructure, or the same political authority as the missiles and warheads under B. It is not as if the Pakistanis bring "Jihadi sitting with atomic weapon in a hutment in Mumbra" to the table, when we are discussing deterrence or strategic disarmament with them at an official level.

So: Where is the correlation between the JDAM being mated/assembled/armed and any of their missiles being mated? Even if there is a correlation how can it be credibly established? If the Pakistanis tomorrow destroyed all their missiles and rolled back their entire official strategic weapons program, that STILL would not decrease our threat perception of the JDAM.

Even the complete absence of B does not negate the possibility of A... after all there were no missiles of any kind when AQ Khan made his "five minutes" threat in 1983. The very existence of A makes nonsense of all the possibilities and scenarios that could be discussed or probed under B. Comparisons to SALT, START or any such thing are made completely irrelevant by A... no such element ever had to be considered in any deterrence model seen during the Cold War.

Therefore, why are we worried that some un-proved claim made under B heightens the danger of A?

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Postby Vick » 23 Aug 2005 00:38

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 311100.htm

Cruise missiles in sub-continent — The Sino-Pakistani nexus

G. Parthasarathy

India cannot be too careful about the manner in which China is supplying Pakistan with missiles to give latter the capability to strike at cities all across India. This considered with Beijing's opposition to a Permanent Security Council Membership for India suggests a continuing Chinese aim to "contain" India by encouraging Pakistan to seek "parity" with it. This means New Delhi must be realistic about Beijing's aims and intentions before normalising relations. It would be good to develop a national consensus on this issue.

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Postby Sunil » 23 Aug 2005 01:00

Hi Anoop,

The "trust" I am refering to speaks to the level of confidence that the current GoI has about its current counterpart in Islamabad's ability to deliver on any promises it makes. How precisely "trust" was established with regards to the Zia ul Haq regime when the Sri. Rajiv Gandhi was in power is not relevant to the present time but lets just say that it probably had an element of give-and-take in it.

As long as an element of that give-and-take can be maintained a "trust" can be maintained. An open ended stance on JDAMs today and with loose talk that hints at the possibility of a nuclear arsenal in a high state of readiness creates an atmosphere of suspicion and concern. This erodes "trust" and then the Pakistani government will have to do something to restore "trust" and do so without knowing whether the "trust" can be restored at all. This is not an advantageous position to be in.

As I said earlier, the process of peace requires a reliable and trustworthy partner who does not make empty promises and misleading statements that harm the very prospects of peace.

Rudradev,

I have a very Hobbesian view of the Pakistanis. I find that it helps keep the focus in discussions about nuclear standoff issues.

The JDAM remains the most credible Pakistani nuclear weapons delivery system. The rest of the Pakistani deterrent based on Chinese missiles with warheads of a questionable survivability when mated with the missiles is imo a mere metaphor for the readiness and willingness to use a JDAMs.

The Pakistanis cannot publicly admit to the fact above because it will erode trust in the Pakistani government. The Pakistanis need something like Missiles or F16s etc... to showcase their strength before their *own* people. They need something they can bring to the table.

The entire investment in anti-missile radars etc... is imo a very expensive production piece in the political drama. The anti-missile radars will never actually detect a missile launch but will set the stage to erode the Pakistani public's confidence in the viability of the Pakistani nuclear deterrent. It is for that reason - and that reason alone that a visible way of defeating this system has to be devised - and that imo is what the Pakistanis intended the Babur to be.

However the real belligerence and the bellicosity that rests barely below the surface in Pakistan - their uncontrollable Jihadi fervor showed when they began to talk of mounting it with nukes onto their submarines. In doing so they held out the prospect of a "ready-to-go" arsenal and that is where the troubles began.

Either those that were talking in Pakistan didn't understand the implications to the JDAM issue or perhaps were keen to exploit it. We will never know which it was - and that is why I say that "Trust" is damaged. That is why I stressed the need for clarification but obviously as Pillai points out - no one is going to give that from the Pakistani side.

During the Cold War - this was very much part of the equation and a source of considerable concern until the NPT negotiations reached a state of maturity that effectively capped - as opposed to ended - this threat. IIRC a US customs sting operation in 1996 uncovered a possible attempt to smuggle a Russian nuclear weapon on to US soil. I am sure the Russians have similar horror stories.

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Postby Sunil » 23 Aug 2005 01:30

I think I should be more precise on this JDAM issue.

You can only get past this threat if both sides agree to get past it. It can't happen as long as one side keeps relying on that idea to keep its end of the deterrence regime up and worse still is deeply psychologically wedded to it. You can't get past this threat as long as one side remains completely under the sway of an ideology that calls upon it to slaughter millions of civilians as a form of a just and divinely-sanctioned action.

There has to be an understanding among all parties that although anyone can do this kind of reprehensible action and no advantage can be accrued from this. Even if a portion of the national command and control chain is eliminated - a sufficiently capable part of it will survive and inflict an unacceptable retaliation.

This understanding is lacking on the Pakistani side currently. An extremely large chunk of Pakistan's military leadership believes subconsciously in the idea that Allah has sanctioned their planned acts of genocide and that Kafir life is worth nothing. You can see this most visibly when their eyes light up as they talk to you about Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) that "prevails between India and Pakistan". Even though they lack the fissile material to do anything even weakly resembling the havoc suggested in the MAD scheme - they love to talk as if they already have that. Most simply do not understand that the US and USSR at some point of time had thousands of weapons in the Megaton range before they could coin the MAD term - the Pakistanis just love thinking that they have an arsenal capable of completely eliminating all life in India. I would not be surprised if tomorrow some Pakistani talks about MAD between Pakistan and the US.

The JDAM appeals to these people as a very credible way of achieving this with the barest minimum of technology. A Q Khan for all his faults has put this much strength in Pakistan's arms. All those other folks with their missiles and Chinese imports couldn't come anywhere near this. This is the real proliferation problem which Non-Prol mullahs cannot talk about directly. Most of these people take all that gibberish about Ghauri and Abdali etc... so seriously they don't even comprehend the JDAM threat.

Given the Pakistani habit of overstating their percieved strength and the poor quality of discussion and instruction at Pakistan Army's training institutions, one cannot just simply tell them in where things stand. They routinely get carried away with the idea of their greatness and overestimate their ability to do things. This is the problem right now - any arms sales that strengthen Pakistan's percieved nuclear strengths will be accompanied by a corresponding shift in its nuclear posturing.

Needless to say that it doesn't help us one bit if either the US or China encourages this sort of behavior and the same holds for France and UK.

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Postby Nav » 23 Aug 2005 02:20

Hi Sunil.

Why are we assuming that pakistan's only real deterence is JDAM. If china can provide them with nuclear blueprints, Nucler fissile material, Nuclear capable ballastic missiles then why should we assume that they dont work. Is there something that I am missing. Please tell me if I am. Thats putting our own national security on risk by assuming that pakistan's systems dont work. Don't think I am panicing because I am not but I don't want India's security to rely on an assumption that all pakistan has is JDAM. We all know the cruise missile came from china and I honestly do not trust either china or pakistan for keeping promises. I don't think anyone needs to ask why. Simple answer is they don't give a rats ass about promisses. All china wants is domination and Guess who is counter to that :twisted: So they will try anything to undermine us.

I want india to not say too much publically about the curise missile ( which its doing very nicely) BUT be prepare for anything. Sort of like smile on the face and a 9mm in the pocket :twisted:

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Postby Sunil » 23 Aug 2005 03:25

Nav wrote: Why are we assuming that pakistan's only real deterence is JDAM. If china can provide them with nuclear blueprints, Nucler fissile material, Nuclear capable ballastic missiles then why should we assume that they dont work. Is there something that I am missing.


Hi Nav,

Nuclear tipped missile tech roughly consists of the following parts:

1) Propulsion,
2) Inertial Navigation,
3) Warhead Assembly.

It is an extremely non-trivial task to have propulsion that works with the navigation system. It is a non-trivial task to join up a warhead to a missile with a navigation and propulsion system.

For Pakistan to _know_ that it has recieved a working system from China. They will have to test a completely assembled and mated missile+ warhead combination over land. Until they can do such a thing there is no way that the missiles by themselves constitute a credible threat as of now (in time they might constitute one). The missiles are part of the language of deterrence but they cannot be said to form a credible part of the deterrent. The periodic tests of these missiles imo constitutes a way of publicly showing Pakistan's prowess for a domestic audience. Most of the missiles save the Ghauri were generally held to be incapable of carrying the Pakistani nuclear bomb due to weight issues.

The F-16s did not currently constitute a survivable delivery system, there were weight to range issues. The survivability of the platform over Indian airspace could not be guarenteed and finally the lack of spares imo killed the ability to train on them. The PAF countered this with secret purchases of spares and by dumping training loads on sympathetic AFs like UAEAF but this only further eroded the credibility of the F16. The range to weight issues applied to most other airborne platforms.

The same sort of thing applied to the PN's submarines. There was a range and survivability problem.

So far the Pakistanis used the F-16 as a part of the language of deterrence but this was mostly courtesy of the Americans like Steve Cohen who were keen to see the F-16 seem like a good buy for the Pakistanis. The Pakistanis have refrained from using PN assets as part of the language of deterrence because the range and survivability issues were too obvious.

Miniaturization of the bomb is certainly something that PRC could help Pakistan with. However they would still have to test a mated configuration in Pakistan itself to know that they aren't getting another "Dongfang Locomotive" type deal.
Last edited by Sunil on 24 Aug 2005 01:40, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby kgoan » 23 Aug 2005 04:34

Because the heart of nuclear deterrence is delivery. Everything is about that.

Having a nuke is like having a bullet without a gun. A missile without a nuke is a gun without a bullet - or a gun with plastic bullets if conventionally armed.

The Chinese may have given the Pakees guns (missiles) and bullets (nukes), but the caliber of the bullet doesn't fit the gun.

The only way the Paks have of delivering their bullet is via bullock cart. The famous Chinese ability to take the long view (as in the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward) and our natural allies spectacular brain power as displayed by their think tanks, means that neither gives a stuff about the Paks because both are convinced that the bullock cart only applies to India.

Personally, while agreeing with Sunil, I still reckon the day the Paks do mate gun and bullet in a boat is the day the Pak bullock cart becomes other folks problem as much as its ours. (And yer know what they say - a problem shared is a chance to blame someone else for the whole mess).

Then our dear natural allies and our Asian brothers in the North get to chuckle along with us at the whole situation. 9-11 made Pakeeland the worlds problem - not just ours. This is gonna do the same thing for the Pakee "bum".

The world (i.e. the US) deals with the situation by making every Pak at an international airport bend over while a hairy mustachioed type sticks a finger up where the sun don't shine. They call this "security". They can't figure out why the Pakees seem to enjoy it so much and simply giggle a lot.

I don't think we should tell 'em. Clever powerful people like that tend to resent poor lowly folks like us pointing out that they're actually vacuous morons.

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Postby david_d » 23 Aug 2005 05:11

kgoan wrote:

The world (i.e. the US) deals with the situation by making every Pak at an international airport bend over while a hairy mustachioed type sticks a finger up where the sun don't shine. They call this "security". They can't figure out why the Pakees seem to enjoy it so much and simply giggle a lot.



Pakis be lovin' dat coz they be thinkin' numb azz.

Sorry, coud not resist :wink:

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Postby pillai » 23 Aug 2005 05:53

Sunil wrote:
If I find that confusing --- will the Pakistanis understand?


I hope so. It isn't that hard to understand really esp. for the Pakistanis .. after all it boils down to the following points.

1) Pakistan cannot ever mate its warheads to its missiles and this fact is public knowledge now. Any attempt to do so will be met with the most severe response from all sides. ...

.


This reminds me of a story. Once upon a time, a Pakjabi farmer had a great harvest. He was standing atop his mound of barley, surveying the fields, when he saw the royal mahout heading his way, leading a train of royal elephants. The farmer called out to him " hey, wanna sell those donkeys??" :shock: Needless to say the farmer had to pay with his neck, but you get the idea.

If the Pakis have managed to finagle a cruise missile from somewhere, alongwith capability to mass produce it, they are standing atop their mound of barley. Please do not expect them to respect any kind of royalty at the moment. :)

And speaking of royalty, Sunil's royal edicts of " Pakistan must do this and Pakistan must do that", remind me of a character from medieval Europe. He was known as the "lord of the roma" or the "Gypsy king". He would show up at fairs and carnivals, wearing a multicolored tunic and a crown, with his retinue of jugglers and dancing bears, and would give speeches and issue edicts. But the fair goers usually didn't respect his edicts. They thought he was kinda funny.

So please quit being funny Sunil Miyan. How is the present situation any graver than the time, Paki foreign minister flew to Delhi and told Indian authorities about the F-16 waiting on the tarmac, with a mated nuke?? hain?? This sort of nuclear brinkmanship in the Indo-Pak context usually means nothing. And you have every right to try to drag unkil into this by climbing the nearest minaret and shouting "Amreeka is in danger". But shouldn't Amreeka be the judge of that?? This is between India and Pakistan and thats the bootomline. Please relax.

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Postby Alok_N » 23 Aug 2005 06:08

pillai wrote: This is between India and Pakistan and thats the bootomline.


terrible typo ... I assume you meant boot-on-line ...

I believe Sunil has been saying the same thing ... now why would pakis prefer to receive the boot, offline or on?

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Postby Tilak » 23 Aug 2005 06:19

Guys,

Please dont yield to pillai's flamebait, his attempts to hijack thread's upto now, I should say have been quite successful.

To preserve the sanctity of this thread, I request the Mods to move his post to Paki humour thread etc., where all the members can give him/as well as his flamebait the treatment it deserves.
Last edited by Tilak on 23 Aug 2005 06:24, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Sunil » 23 Aug 2005 06:21

Hi,

I think another matter needs some clarification. When I said "credible" I meant from a Pakistan perspective - *not* from an Indian perspective. Those are two different things. From an Indian perspective - every Pakistani threat is as credible as the last one but from a Pakistani perspective things are little different.

Sri. Natarajan pointed out that the Babur is not indigenous. You see, this is key problem in Pakistan. The entire deterrent - the bomb and the missiles has been built on technology purchased of the blackmarket with proceeds of heroin trade. Due to Pakistan's emphasis on a warfighting doctrine that relies on nuclear weapons, the Pakistanis have rushed everything into "serial production" i.e. all the platforms are imports - post 1971 I don't think any Pakistani strategic planner worth his salt is going to put complete faith in a delivery platform that has touched so many foreign hands.

If I was Chinese I would be very reluctant to give the Pakistanis anything that I wasn't sure they wouldn't turn against me. The same applies to anything purchased of the European and American technology blackmarkets. Yes- now and then the Pakistanis may pick up something extra but lets face it - if the Chinese were to supply the Pakistanis with M11s that were actually nuclear tipped well then how they ensure that the missile was never used to shake them down in Xinjiang? The rational thing to do - imo - would be (as Kgoan says) to give them a system that could not be mated together without Chinese assistance. Ofcourse in the case of a standoff with India - the Chinese could then use that requirement - i.e. the need for Chinese engineers to mate the missiles - as a leverage tool with India ... if that is - things ever went that far.

The Pakistanis know this - they know that push comes to shove - they will only have themselves to depend on. So they remain dependent on keeping the JDAM threat alive. The JDAM idea then becomes the ultimate way to ensure that the Pakistani crown jewels remain in Pakistani hands.

Now earlier I was a little to harsh with the Non-Proliferation community. For you see, most of the people you have heard about in the Non-Prol crowd are post NPT folks. They have never witnessed the terribly complicated deliberations that went into stabilizing the NPT. They didn't have to come up with the NPT from a blank piece of paper. By the time they came on the scene - all the terrible stuff had been packed to the annexure and the appendix of the treaty and all the numbers were tidily presented as well tabulated columns and inventories of stockpiles. The field thus attracted a huge group of unimaginative number crunchers who could use MS Excell to add two columns but had absolutely no idea how to manage an arsenal dependant on having JDAMs. The rationality of the adversary was assumed and everything focussed on keeping stockpiles of fissile material and actual numbers of weapons under control.

To these post-NPT people - the NPT is a religious document. It keeps the grants coming and a majority of people in the NP community like robots do one of the following:

1) Profile a system and determine its viability.
2) Count the numbers of missiles, aircraft, tons of fissile material etc...
3) Write histories of proliferation related statements made by various governments.

The number of people who actually try to pull the entire picture together paying attention to the details of the situation and the specifics of the country are very few. The result is that there is no appreciation for the most part in public debate for the real risks posed by each country. The kind of thinking and scholarship that went into understanding the needs of each nuclear power that signed the NPT is simply not there at all. The result is huge gaping holes in the formulation of international proliferation control regimes.

Needless to say that Pakistanis are very good at exploiting these weaknesses.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 23 Aug 2005 06:22

Pillai Mian:

A brave front, no doubt, but there is a small problem with your analogy. The "mound" on which the PakJabi Generals and Admirals are standing is not grain, but elephant dung.

Given the facts of the obviously doctored photos and the non-existent launch, what has been conveyed to the world is something less than terrifying about Pakistani capabilities.

The evidence shows that Pakistan is far from having managed to "finagle" a working nuclear-armed cruise missile. As for this immense mass production capability that you dream of, let us please remember that we are speaking of a nation that has to import even "Muslim Showers" :roll:

I do not doubt that in the 1980s Pakistan may have had an F-16 parked on a tarmac with a dirty-bomb in a barrel attached to it. In fact all those dozens of "missile warheads" were probably spent fuel rods from Kahuta, rolled into balls like the deaddly concret-block warheads used by Saddam on his SCUDs in Gulf War 1.

But this is the year 2005. Pakistan is not the Leader of the Islamic World , the darling of the western superpowers, on the frontlines against Soviet expansionism.

Pakistan is recognized worldwide as Global Terror Inc. Al Qaeda. The Shoe Bombers. The BakPak bombers - Oh! incompetent at that too.

It is well-known that all fissile material has long-since been removed from Pakistan. Much of it is lighting light bulbs in America, thank you very much for reducing our power costs - the Pakistani "nuclear arse-nal" has long since been ground up and blended down to nuclear power plant fuel at the Oak Ridge Y-12 plant in Tennesssee. Georgia Power Co.'s Plant Hatch, Plant Vogtle, and the Savannah River reactors, are all running on Pakistani "new clear detergent".

So your dictator has a problem. His Generals' Ghauris are limp. No one believes those symbols of Pak virility any more. His F-16s are bullock-powered since the engines have long-since quit. So what is left? A doctored picture of a Red Chinese cruise missile casing, with the word "BAA-BAA" superposed on the photo and a picture of a dozen Paki dummies standing in front, superposed.

Pathetic. But MAYBE its enough to fool the Opposition Parties in Pakistan. After all, they are the dummies who let Musharraf come to power in the first place...

Let me put it briefly. This "cruise missile" stunt has provided further confirmation, if any were needed that

PAKISTAN IS NUKE-NUDE

It has provoked widespread laughter.

Uzbekistan could invade tomorrow, and Pakistan would surrender.

Tsk, tsk, such a comedown for the Mighty Army of Islam that perched on the ridges of the Pir Panjal.
Last edited by enqyoobOLD on 23 Aug 2005 06:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dileep » 23 Aug 2005 06:23

Pillai Miyan, the difference between your story and the present situation is that, with the farmer, there was no threat to the elephants. Modify the story to "the farmer asks all his family(ie his 27 sons from 7 marriages) to charge upon the donkeys with their flintlocks and kill'em all". Now you see the problem.

You fire up a scaled model rocket, and publish some photoshopped photographs, and see how much tamasha is going on in your country? Wasn't there talks of carpeting India with hundreads of Nais? Now, imagine what can happen if the official policy of TSP is to mate the nukes with delivery mechanisms? The problem my miyan, is not that we are being paranoiac. The problem is, you guys are out of control if you see a glimpse of something yourself.

We can be content that you don't have warheads that can go on the various dongless missiles you have, we can be content that you don't have a Nai that flies, we can be content that you can't fly the Falcons beyond the IB, but we ARE concerned about your bullock carts and the Abduls who drive them. Once you declare mating, the bets come off. That IS the problem.

Yes, we are concerned about america being in danger too. I for one make a living there :D

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Postby Sunil » 23 Aug 2005 06:56

Pillai,

So please quit being funny Sunil Miyan. How is the present situation any graver than the time, Paki foreign minister flew to Delhi and told Indian authorities about the F-16 waiting on the tarmac, with a mated nuke?? hain?? This sort of nuclear brinkmanship in the Indo-Pak context usually means nothing. And you have every right to try to drag unkil into this by climbing the nearest minaret and shouting "Amreeka is in danger". But shouldn't Amreeka be the judge of that?? This is between India and Pakistan and thats the bootomline. Please relax.


Firstly regarding your foreign minister - hum log saap aur sapere mey fark karna jaante hain.

Secondly - Nuclear brinkmanship makes sense if there is an escalation control and one is trying to defuse a crisis. Random timepass comments made with no thought to the consequences does not constitute brinkmanship. It constitutes irresponsible behavior. Iski keemat toh chukani padegi..

Without immobilizing the PN fleet now there is no way to ensure that this idiotic talk about a nuclear tipped submarine capable cruise missile remains just that.

If I hold a contest in Pakistan say in Karachi...

"Who is more popular Pervez Musharraf or Osama Bin Laden?"

Who do you think will win?

Then you have to understand that Americans will be concerned about this "Indo-Pak" matter.

If the Pakis have managed to finagle a cruise missile from somewhere, alongwith capability to mass produce it, they are standing atop their mound of barley. Please do not expect them to respect any kind of royalty at the moment.


Yaar kab tak yeh do number ke paise se khareedey hue chori ke maal par bharosa karoge?

And speaking of royalty, Sunil's royal edicts of " Pakistan must do this and Pakistan must do that", remind me of a character from medieval Europe. He was known as the "lord of the roma" or the "Gypsy king". He would show up at fairs and carnivals, wearing a multicolored tunic and a crown, with his retinue of jugglers and dancing bears, and would give speeches and issue edicts. But the fair goers usually didn't respect his edicts. They thought he was kinda funny.


Yaar - itna samajh lo this is not a joke.

That agosta is never going to sail again. There are not going to be any more cruise missile tests in Pakistan. This entire Pakistani cruise missile thing is going to have to go away permanently.
Last edited by Sunil on 23 Aug 2005 07:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby parsuram » 23 Aug 2005 06:58

FWIW: Imo, the ONLY nuke delevery system pakis have is Jehaadi suicide nuke bombers. None of their missiles, aircraft etc. are in any position to deliver a nuke strike.

NOTE: We are talking of a 'country' incapable of making a locomotive. Never mind engineering a locomotive, pakis are incapable of repairing structural defects in locomotives they import from the chinees. That is why they shelled out $100 mil. to German engineers to do those repairs. Pakis are pathetic liars. That includes 'pillai'.

It would take some real dumfuk to believe that pakis can actually make any of the stuff they crow about.

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Postby Dipanker » 23 Aug 2005 07:03

Did we really need this thread? May be not.

Thank you Dipanker, that is the last post I want to see from you on this thread. We will close this thread when I am good and ready.
- Admin

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Postby Tilak » 23 Aug 2005 07:29

Boy!! Talk about history repeating itself.

Just one flamebait and fellow members are flocking with their rebuttals, giving him/posts undue importance. What bothers me most is members trying to impart doctrinal knowledge to kids posting folktales.

I would like to repeat my earlier plea so that common sense prevails.

"To preserve the sanctity of the thread, I request the Mods to move pillai's post and the likes, to Paki humour thread etc., where all the members can give flamers,trolls/as well as their flamebait's the treatment they deserve."

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Postby Sunil » 23 Aug 2005 07:44

Tilak,

Thanks for your concern, but I actually want Pillai to participate. I have been trying to convey something to him and I worry that I might not have gotten through. I want to know if atleast he understands what I am saying.

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Postby Tilak » 23 Aug 2005 08:08

Sunil,

With all due respect,I really appreciate your post's and your active participation in the forum.

The point I tried to make is however hard you try to convince trolls, it will fall on deaf ears. The objective of troll is to hijack the thread, by playing on members sentiments. We all should be aware of this and try to change our tactics likewise.

We should answer all their flames in a language cheapistani's undestand best, but this is not the place.

Members like Dipanker are already expressing concerns regarding the validity of this thread, in view of all these flames, and rightly so.

Dipanker, why should we change the course of threads because of paki trolls ???. I beg to differ with your view.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 23 Aug 2005 08:10

That said, Sunil, u don't really expect a veteran like Lazarus Oothappotamus to come out and admit to understanding anything, do u? Have some respect for our dear old friend, pls. He has a reputation to maintain. 8)

U r beating a dead ass onlee. He has a point too - pakistanis are not going to go by any calculations of international proprieties in deciding whether to sail their glorified septic tank (a.k.a. Agosta) with the paintings of the Red Missiles.

Things must be REALLY down if they can't even get green paint and the white sickle to put on "their" missile. U know what that means - the Chinese PLA guys standing with the AK-47s in the background wouldn't even let the Pakis touch the empty SLCM casing. I guess the MTCR is holding after all.

Anyway, this whole series of threads has been most entertaining. What's next month's 'surprise' I wonder - a "mass-produced" Stealth Fighter carrying a 20MT thermonuclear bum? Or a 500kT BakPak?

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Postby shiv » 23 Aug 2005 08:12

Sunil - a couple of days ago I saw a news item on thhis forum that said that Pakistan is going to test one more missile in a few weeks.

We know that testing missiles involves multiple tests that reveal diffferent aspects of the missile's performance and reliability of systems. We all also know that Pakistan does one test and claims the system is fully ready.

The usual explanation is that the Pakistanis do have a readymade system - all tested in China, and so they can afford to do one test and say they are ready. That is plausible and I will accept it as correct.

But if that explanation is correct - then there is no reason to test at all. In fact Pakistan may have a readymade ICBMs tested in China. They can theoretically keep it under wraps and supply a few to Saudi too.

So each "one-off" test HAS TO BE a public demonstration of capability. Since the whole goddam world (except the Packee citizens) knows it is Chinese capability being tested, the tests have to be an internal demonstration for consumption by the Packee public. Sorry to repeat all this.

It Musharraf needs to demonstrate the size of his penis to his own public, the only reason can be that he and his allies in the establishment are worried that there is some other penis in Pakistan that is threatening to appear bigger and the public will start worshipping that lingam (or shiv-ling, if you like).

The shivling that Pakistanis worship most is the shivling of Pakistani and Islamic invincibility against all enemies, starting with India. I just wonder if Musharraf's demonstrations of capability against India are not enough to keep people coming to his ashram. I wonder if he is increasingly having to demonstrate his and Pakistan's and Islam's overall capability to fight Israel and the US in order to keep his lingam attractive.

In this context - I believe that the threat to Musharraf is not from the pillais and the syed yusufs. They are the establishment's children, and as such represent a creamy layer in Pakistan. The real problem for Mushy may be between the creamy layer and the layers underneath.

We do not normally hear voices of those underneath in Pakistan - but we see effects of their actions - the continuing action in Kashmir, Afghanistan, London and elsewhere. I wonder if Musharraf's penis display is an indirect view of the threat that the layers beneath the creamy layer pose to him.

Just some thoughts. But they may be relevant in that a tete a tete with RAPE will possibly be uninformative. I mean it does not matter what India or the US think. If they display anger - it is a bonus for Musharraf. If they don't react - he does not lose much - he has still shown hiscapability.

The test does not make Pakistan safer against India or the world. The tests make the Pakistan establishment more secure against people who are saying that Pakistan is being sold short.
Last edited by shiv on 23 Aug 2005 08:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby enqyoobOLD » 23 Aug 2005 08:17

My view is that the Pakis shown in the pic went on a Goodwill Mission to PRC's People's Herrowic Movie Set, and were allowed to pose in front of a model of a People's Cruise Missile.

Then the Pakis put "BABUR" on the picture, dug out old video of one of their many flubbed ballistic missile launches, and claimed a Paki SLCM capability.

After all, these ARE Pakis we're talking about. Sunil tries to ascribe some reason and rationale to them, but that's a hopeless endeavor.

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Postby svinayak » 23 Aug 2005 08:26

Cruise missiles in sub-continent — The Sino-Pakistani nexus
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 311100.htm

G. Parthasarathy

India cannot be too careful about the manner in which China is supplying Pakistan with missiles to give latter the capability to strike at cities all across India. This considered with Beijing's opposition to a Permanent Security Council Membership for India suggests a continuing Chinese aim to "contain" India by encouraging Pakistan to seek "parity" with it. This means New Delhi must be realistic about Beijing's aims and intentions before normalising relations. It would be good to develop a national consensus on this issue.

ON JULY 18 the United States President, Mr George Bush, and the Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, asserted that Washington and New Delhi would "work together to provide global leadership in areas of mutual concern and interest." Mr Bush assured Dr Manmohan Singh that he would work to "achieve full nuclear energy cooperation with India as it realises its goal of promoting nuclear power and achieving energy security". Less than a fortnight later, on July 28 the US, Japan, China, India, South Korea and Australia announced a new "Asia Pacific Partnership on Clean Development and Climate". This "Partnership" will involve cooperation areas of common interest like energy efficiency, clean coal, bio-energy, liquefied natural gas and civilian nuclear power.

Was this the beginning of a new US, China, India entente? The answer came a week later on August 4 when the American and Chinese envoys to the United Nations met in New York and decided to work jointly to torpedo efforts by Germany, Japan, Brazil and India to secure Permanent Membership of the Security Council. In today's world the US seeks to strengthen India's hands to promote a viable balance of power in Asia and then colludes with China to ensure that India does not get a Permanent Membership of the Security Council.

While the Bush Administration envisages an emerging and expanding role in the entire Asian and Indian Ocean Region and supports India's efforts for economic integration with East and South-East Asia, the same cannot be said of China.

Beijing's interest in containing New Delhi was evident in the way that it ganged up with the Clinton Administration's efforts to "cap, roll back and eliminate" India's nuclear programme. More important, China's efforts to "contain" India have remained a constant feature, manifest by its backing for Pakistan's nuclear weapons and missile programmes ever since 1976.

After providing Pakistan with the designs of nuclear weapons, China proceeded to supply Pakistan with fissile materials, supported its uranium enrichment efforts and provided it with plutonium reprocessing capabilities for miniaturising nuclear warheads.

What is even more significant about the Pakistan-China relationship is the manner in which China has supplied Pakistan with missiles to give latter the capability to strike at cities all across India.

The first supplies of Chinese missiles to Pakistan happened barely two years after the December 1988 visit of Rajiv Gandhi to China. Chinese supplies of M-11 missiles (christened Ghaznavi by Pakistan) with a range of around 300 km began around 1991.

Shortly after the visit of the Prime Minister, P. V. Narasimha Rao, to China in 1993, Beijing proceeded to provide Islamabad with nuclear capable medium-range DF-15/M-9 missiles (christened Shaheen 1 by Pakistan) with a range of 600-750 km. This supply was in violation of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). The M-9 has the range to target major population centres in North India, including Delhi.

The M-9 supplies compelled the Clinton Administration, which invariably turned a blind eye to Chinese proliferation activities, to impose sanctions on the manufacturers, Haiying Electro Mechanical Technology Academy, a subsidiary of the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation. Around 1998, China started providing Pakistan with 1800/2000-km range nuclear-capable DF-21/21A missile capable of hitting as far south as Kerala and east to West Bengal.

An interesting feature of the Chinese nuclear and missile assistance to Pakistan is that all such assistance is channelled to the National Development Complex in Fatehjang, near the Chinese supplied nuclear power and reprocessing plants at Chashma and Khushab, in Pakistan's Punjab Province. This complex is headed by Pakistani nuclear scientist, Dr Samar Mubarak Mand, who is designated Chairman of Pakistan's Engineering and Scientific Commission; he is now emerging as Pakistan's national hero to replace the disgraced Dr A. Q. Khan.

The Chinese missiles assembled at Fatehjang are invariably tested in Baluchistan. The Shaheen-1 was test fired at Sonmiani in Lasbela district of Baluchistan. The Shaheen-2 was also test fired from Baluchistan. Dr A. Q. Khan was entrusted with assembling missiles of North Korean origin such as the Ghauri 1 and Ghauri 2. These missiles were test fired either from Dera Ghazi Khan or Jhelum district in Pakistani Punjab.

It is in this background that one has to view the announcement made by Dr Samar Mubarak Mand on August 12 that after the successful test firing of a 500-km range nuclear capable cruise missile in Baluchistan, Pakistan is going to commence serial production of these Babur Cruise Missiles in October.

Pakistan does not have the capability to produce cruise missiles indigenously. It is, therefore, evident that the Wen Jiabao visit to Pakistan has been followed not merely by new Chinese supplies of fighter aircraft, naval frigates and tanks, but also by the supply of advanced cruise missiles to Pakistan. China itself acquired the 250-km range "Moskit" cruise missile from Russia. It also acquired the 400-km range "Delilah" Cruise Missile from Israel. Finally, between 1999 and 2001, it clandestinely acquired from Ukraine X-55 cruise missiles capable of carrying a 200-kiloton nuclear warhead with a range of 2500 km. It has brought in hundreds of Russian technicians to develop cruise missiles.

All these efforts are being coordinated by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation that has been a regular supplier of strategic missiles to Pakistan. A significant feature that has emerged in the recent past is that the military and missile technology that China acquires from Russia is finding its way to Pakistan. Has New Delhi brought this to the notice of its friends in Moscow?

Beijing's opposition to New Delhi's Permanent Membership of the Security Council, its reservations about joining and being associated in regional forums in Central, East and South-East Asia and its nuclear/missile relationship with Pakistan all suggest a continuing Chinese aim to "contain" India by encouraging Pakistan to seek "parity" with it. This does not mean that we should not seek to normalise relations with our northern neighbour. It merely means that we should be realistic about its aims and intentions. It would be good to develop a national consensus on this issue.

There is no doubt that there has been yet another major intelligence failure, as the Indian negotiating team evidently had no information about the impending Cruise Missile Test when finalising the text of the Agreement on Prior Notification of Missile Tests with its Pakistani counterparts, earlier this month.

The National Security Adviser, Mr M. K. Narayanan, was said to be determined to revamp the entire functioning of our external intelligence set-up after it was found that it did not have a clue about the palace coup in Kathmandu staged by King Mahendra, when the Monarch imposed emergency rule.

Sadly, apart from Indira Gandhi, no Prime Minister in recent years has paid adequate attention to developing our human and covert intelligence capabilities. One hopes that Dr Manmohan Singh will pay the same attention to doing this as he does to other aspects of national security.

(The author is a former High Commissioner to Pakistan.)


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Postby Alok_N » 23 Aug 2005 09:16

Tilak wrote: The objective of troll is to hijack the thread, by playing on members sentiments. We all should be aware of this and try to change our tactics likewise.


errr ...

may I point out that you yourself have authored 3 posts in response to the pillai menace ...

with this second post of mine, I am yet to catch up with your response frequency ...

now, how exactly should I change my "tactics"?

perhaps, you should enjoy the current response sequence for the lighthearted drivel that it is ...

:)

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Postby Tilak » 23 Aug 2005 09:58

Alok_N,

I am not going to fall for your "flamebait". Sorry I did'nt realise that I hurt your sentiments ...
:wink:

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Postby Alok_N » 23 Aug 2005 10:11

Tilak wrote:Alok_N,

I am not going to fall for your "flamebait". Sorry I did'nt realise that I hurt your sentiments....


after me, the deluge ... but in a desi sense, it is "after my last word, I'll dam the flood" ...

my post count in this matter still stays one behind yours ...

now, back to serious discussion of paki pakigenous capability of superior photoshop pakoctrination ...

may we all live happily with the "brush tool" ...

I apologize to the admins ... some matters are simply so far out in left field that anything short of poorly composed humor falls well short of the required attention that such crap deserves ...

now, I will take Tilak's advice and maintain a stoic silence while suppressing the attahaas that this matter generates ...

cheers pillai, we are mightily impressed with the faint recognition

that reminds me ... this baa-bur business excites the recessed memory banks of Lucknow slang ... that phrase is uncomfortably close to how a Lucknawi would describe a goat's unmentionables ...


:)

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Postby Joype » 23 Aug 2005 13:18

Let us please wait for some more days. Since Paki’s proliferation record is 400% clean, we will see the N. Korea and Iran following the same track if Paki ever successfully tested any pakigenous CM.
Pillai, the US will have then a reason to worry more than us.

BTW, isn’t it China who really waging a shadow war against us by feeding Paki’s Mushaaraff the hot dogs all the time they required? Those yellow men living next to our door want to keep us engaged with paki so that it can drain our resources and valued time as much as it need.

The roll of Pakis in this drama is same as of Shiqandi (or Shikhandi?) in Mahabharath

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Postby kashmal » 23 Aug 2005 18:46

Didn't pillie or syed promise the video of barber hitting the target? Even in the flash animation, nai doesn't hit the target onlee.

:cry: :cry: :cry:


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