Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Dec 2012 20:05

Aditya_V wrote:What is the IAF and INcombat fleet anyways

IN 2000

it was
Airforce
18 Su-30K, MK.
70 Mig-29
44 M-2000
66 Mig 23 BN
20 Mig 23 MF
8 MIg 25
25 Mig 21 Bison
170 Mig 21 Bis
100 Mig 21 FL/ M/MF
100 Jaguar IM/IS
120 Mig 27's

IN
16 Sea Harrier.

All told around 790 Fighters

Today we have

135 Jaguar IM/IS
66 Mig 29's
50 M-2000's
166 SU-30
120 Mig 21 Bison
40 Mig 27's

Around
IN
10 Sea Harriers
16 Mig 29's

Around 600 Air craft. Down by around 190 combat aircraft. If 160 Mig 21/ 27 are retired and 105 Su 30 , 25 LCA, 29 Mig 29 Navy and 50 Rafales are added by 2020, we still have a worrying situation.

This TSP has bought F-16 C/D, Used F-16 A MLU and JF-17's and CHinese have added J-10, J-11, SU 30 K etc.

Our combat edge which was there in Kargil with PAF having no BVR fighters in 2000 has been significantly blunted with TSP 70-80 BVR F-16's and JF-17s. Truly a worrying situation.

This has significantly embolded TSP - coupled with thier Nuke stockpile, they are pretty confident of being immune from an Indian attack as oppossed post Kargil when they were abit shaken .

While I'd be the last person to defend our tardy planning and acquisition process, or feel complacent about the IAF being nowhere near sanctioned strength let's keep some perspective:

1. The IAF has much more capacities today. What one Su 30MKI can do on a 4-6 hour sortie is what it would have required multiple Mig 27s to do, to say nothing of the Mig 21

2. The combat fleet cannot be seen in isolation from air-to-air refuelers and AWACS, there is a good reason for such platforms to be called force multipliers

3. However, it is ridiculous that we have IN Mig 29s delivered with no Vik around in the near future, at a time when such capacities are very badly needed

As for PAF's stronger fleet...well from the times of the SAS in WWII to Pebble Island, PNS Mehran, Kamra, and Camp Bastion, there are other ways to reduce a country's air force than shoot it down in the air...and not cross nuclear redlines while at it

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Dec 2012 20:20

We are providing protection to indigenous manufacture of soaps, perfumes and cars but no customs duty is levied on defense imports. After all lux soap for Ashwarya Bachan is more important than indigenous Aircrafts & rifles.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 24 Dec 2012 21:09

^^

Wrong comparison Vic.

Soaps etc. are consumed by people like us. Defence equipment on the other hand has Govt. agencies/institutions as the end user. What good will it get if they are levied with customs duties etc?

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 24 Dec 2012 21:34

From A Sharma's post above:

“HAL’s total responsibility for this supersonic multirole aircraft has now gone up to 222. This will further boost our confidence and operations as we have already delivered 119 Su-30 aircraft to the Air Force.

What does the "total responsibility" part mean? It's an odd sentence.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Dec 2012 11:35

Multatuli wrote:
From A Sharma's post above:

“HAL’s total responsibility for this supersonic multirole aircraft has now gone up to 222. This will further boost our confidence and operations as we have already delivered 119 Su-30 aircraft to the Air Force.
What does the "total responsibility" part mean? It's an odd sentence.

While various parts are manufactured in Russia, India and other countries, HAL is responsible for the final assembly of these 222 SU-30MKIs and its handover to the IAF. First 50 were assembled in Russia by Ikrut.

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Dec 2012 12:46

Comparison is correct. We are Levying custom duty to encourage and protect indigenous manufacture. Defense manufacture is also required to be encouraged by preference or customs duty.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 Dec 2012 14:14

Aditya_V wrote: Today we have

120 Mig 21 Bison
40 Mig 27's

Have all the MiG-21 variants othe than Bison been retired? Thought the IAF was still flying a few Bis and M/MF squadrons?

Have all the non-upgraded MiG-27 squadrons been retired? Didn't hear of it.

Think your count may be light by more than a 100 MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft.

Also, the 66 Hawks (with 57 on order, plus maybe another 20) may also have a wartime role?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Dec 2012 14:23

I might be light on other Mig 21 and Mig 27 variants, our hawks unlike some other countries have no radar, guns etc. so thest they can do is probably drop the odd dumb bomb, Can't consider that as warfighting role. they also dont have any flares, chaff, ecm etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2012 14:34

vic wrote:Comparison is correct. We are Levying custom duty to encourage and protect indigenous manufacture. Defense manufacture is also required to be encouraged by preference or customs duty.

Actually luxury tax should be imposed on Arjun because it has AC and T-90 does not. Sorry. OT for this thread.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Dec 2012 14:37

shiv wrote:
vic wrote:Comparison is correct. We are Levying custom duty to encourage and protect indigenous manufacture. Defense manufacture is also required to be encouraged by preference or customs duty.
Actually luxury tax should be imposed on Arjun because it has AC and T-90 does not. Sorry. OT for this thread.

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Dec 2012 16:33

And corruption subsidy should be given to T-90

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Dec 2012 18:45

A Sharma wrote:HAL Signs Contract for 42 Su-30 Supersonic Fighters with Rosobornexport & MOD on the Eve of Russian President’s Visit to India

How many Su30 MKI does this really make. There is some confusion on the numbers. Is it a total of 272?

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Dec 2012 18:47

Aditya_V wrote:I might be light on other Mig 21 and Mig 27 variants, our hawks unlike some other countries have no radar, guns etc. so thest they can do is probably drop the odd dumb bomb, Can't consider that as warfighting role. they also dont have any flares, chaff, ecm etc.

Our Hawks dont have radar or guns? Man how dumb can that be. Wasnt the secondary role of an AJT always going to be use in a wartime situation?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 Dec 2012 20:05

RajitO wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:What is the IAF and INcombat fleet anyways

Today we have

135 Jaguar IM/IS
66 Mig 29's
50 M-2000's
166 SU-30
120 Mig 21 Bison
40 Mig 27's

Me thinks that IAF still has

1) Some MiG 21M / MiG 21MFs, say 2 - 3 sqdns, 50+ aircraft

2) More MiG 27, say 60 - 80 aircraft

BUT....

There is always a butt

1) The 150+ SU 30MKI can do the "work" of say 2 - 4 MiG 21 / MiG 27

2) A large number of aircraft are equipped with air-to-air refuelling

2) AWACS

So comparing the number of aircraft is a just an indication. It can be mis-leading

Kersi

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 25 Dec 2012 20:44

^^IIRC the Hawks lack only the radar.. They, I believe, have the same Aden canon that is seen on the Jags in a pod.. So they can be used for CAS using rockets, bombs and PGM's(guidance provided by a ground unit)..

All said and done, the sheer numbers of aircraft on hand is always good to have, especially with the swarms we will be facing in the eastern front...

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Dec 2012 21:34

Will wrote: Our Hawks dont have radar or guns? Man how dumb can that be. Wasnt the secondary role of an AJT always going to be use in a wartime situation?

Indian Hawk 132s inherently have both radar and weapons hardpoints that should be available depending on type of training (intermediate or advanced). They will be doing the jobs of both the Kiran and Mongol (MiG-21), both of which were armed. I believe they also have weapons simulators for initial weapons training, much like a video game.
Link

The Hawk 132 is designed to carry a centreline gun pod (normally a 30mm ADEN cannon) and two wing tip stations with four under-wing pylon stations.

The wingtip stations are for AA missiles which would be useless without radar. And there is no way they could have flown to India from UK without having radar.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 25 Dec 2012 22:02

Victor wrote:Indian Hawk 132s inherently have both radar and weapons hardpoints that should be available depending on type of training (intermediate or advanced).

Since you seem to be very confident that the Hawk Mk. 132 has a radar maybe you can post a credible open source? Are you sure you are not confusing this with the Hawk 200 which does have a radar?

And there is no way they could have flown to India from UK without having radar.

Since they evidently did...you might want to rethink why radar was necessary to perform that journey. (Hint: look up Mig 27 "radar" specs)

Even the Brits planned to throw the Hawks in as only as a last ditch point defence against Soviet Bombers/missiles that got through their long range CAPs. If it comes to that even we will, but I don't think the IAF's current CONOPS (Concept of Operations) envisages a similar role for the Hawks, and this would be reflected in things like AAM provisioning (Magic II?).

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Dec 2012 22:46

Hawks can be a low cost platform for UAV interception and perhaps even CAP for in-depth bases like Lohegaon. COIN is another role for them but our air force has not flown fixed wing aircraft against insurgents since the 1950s. Other than weapons they should also be fitted with self defence suites.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2012 22:59

If India gets into such a desperate war that we have to use up trainer Hawks for combat roles - it will have to be an adversary who is really putting pressure on us. The US is one nation that might be able to do that - with several aircraft carriers offshore. A two front war with China and its pure Islamic prostitute Pakistan might necessitate that. China alone? Naaaah

anyone want to bite?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 26 Dec 2012 01:23

RajitO, it does seem the "radar" is part of the simulator I mentioned (OC2 software) and is actually a "synthetic" radar. BAE link

Looks like the Hawk may become the USAF trainer too, along with the US Navy's T-45 Goshawk, as it is the best choice after the T-38s expire.

I didn't understand what your MiG 27 "hint" was so perhaps you will elaborate. How does that relate to flying without radar from UK to India, dependent only on gps and ground control of a dozen nations even in possible bad visibility?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Dec 2012 02:33

IIRC only one model of the Hawk came with a radar. None of the others had that even as an option.

All trainers that are converted during hostilities need to replace the front seat with a radar. Trainers are too small to have meaningful radars + two seats. That research is about 10 years old.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 Dec 2012 22:19

This is an old 2005 article that I just came across .... good on numbers. anyone have the original?

IAF next worst ‘after PAF’ in accident rates

Daily Times Monitor

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force, which often draws flak for its accident rate, has done a comparative analysis with some of other air forces in the world to see where it stands. The results show that IAF is only better to its counterpart in Pakistan, according to Deccan Chronicle.

The gist of the figures gathered by the Air Headquarters is like this: IAF’s own accident rate is 0.86 per cent of the total number of sorties.

The rate of the US Air Force is 0.175, while in the case of Pakistan it is 1.37, according to Deccan Chronicle. Thailand and France are also better than India and Pakistan with rates of 0.118 and 0.72 respectively. Officials, however, admit that the analysis is based on figures of crashes gathered from unofficial sources as most of the air forces conceal their accident rate.

The situation is different in India where the details of each accident is in public domain as the IAF are answerable to parliament. The officials explain that a lot has been put in to bring down the accident rate over the years. And the results are showing. The last two years have gone off well. If the decade of seventies saw close to 500 accidents, the number hovered around 400 in the next two decades before it came drastically down in the 90s when it was less than 200. The year 2003 and 2004 saw only 21 accidents.

In terms of aircraft, the MiG-23s have the worst record followed by MiG-21s. In 1999, 12 MiG-21s were lost and in 2004 it was only two. But the officials feel that there is no need to stop flying the MiGs which form the backbone of the IAF. The MiG-23s have a crash rate of 2.97 against 2.50 of the MiG-21. The Jaguars and Mirage have accident rates of 1.56 and 1.22, respectively.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 27 Dec 2012 00:14

Victor wrote:RajitO, it does seem the "radar" is part of the simulator I mentioned (OC2 software) and is actually a "synthetic" radar. BAE link

This is what synthetic radar in this context is http://bit.ly/TxeAiu i.e no radar

Victor wrote:I didn't understand what your MiG 27 "hint" was so perhaps you will elaborate. How does that relate to flying without radar from UK to India, dependent only on gps and ground control of a dozen nations even in possible bad visibility?

The Mig-27 was cited as an example of a frontline a/c that has no radar. What makes you think think an a/c cannot navigate over long distances without a radar...or for that matter even without GPS?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 27 Dec 2012 06:35

RajitO wrote:What makes you think think an a/c cannot navigate over long distances without a radar...?

Planes have been flying without radar for over a hundred years so navigation is not the issue. It is the ability to see other aircraft that is and without radar, one is essentially blind even in good visibility conditions. Flying the Hawks all the way without radar needed the complete trust of the ground control systems of several countries to tell them what to watch out for--coordinates, altitude, heading, speed etc--and the IAF was obviously OK with this.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 28 Dec 2012 03:03

Singha wrote:the "passive" thing smacks of some network grid to detect low RCS manned and unmanned platforms as some other countries are also trying to setup.
some wild eyed leftists even claim cellphone towers can be kitted up for such a job.

I think there is more to it than meets ones eyes..

The system will generate a three-dimensional "air-situation picture" by providing location and tracking of airborne, ground and marine targets, regardless of whether these emit radiations or not

The system would be capable of detection, location, identification and tracking of active and passive targets within its area of coverage.

these 2 features alone makes it very useful in detecting UAVs, Cruise missiles or even micro-sliders. Not just cell-phone towers, many other communication structures can be integrated into this network. I am not sure if this will be part of the IAF's IACCS (integrated air command and control system) or supplement it?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 28 Dec 2012 03:06

Aditya_V wrote:So SU-30 cost is same as the first Batch at USD 40 Million, where did the talk of USD 100 million go? So all this talk of SFC, AESA radar - mere speculation??

Methinks the cost is probably what Desh would pay the Bear for the components supplied by it as well as license fees. HAL procures / manufactures a boat load of parts and that cost is not factored here... I could be wrong... inflation is applicable to Rambha's tooo

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Dec 2012 10:04

AW&ST says 42 Su-30MKI deal is worth $3 billion making each aircraft worth $71.4 million

India, Russia Ink Defense Deals Worth $4.5 Billion

India and Russia on Dec. 24 reinforced their defense ties by signing weapons deals worth around $4.5 billion, including pacts for procuring 42 new Su-30 MKI combat aircraft and 71 Mi-17V5 medium-lift military helicopters.

New Delhi will buy kits for the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI fighters for licensed production by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

“The new Su-30 MKI fighters deal, estimated at nearly $3 billion, will add to the 230 Sukhois earlier contracted,” a defense ministry official says. This will take the total number of Su-30 MKI fighters in the Indian Air Force (IAF) to 272 in the next four to five years with 170 of them already in operation in the force.

The official adds that these multi-role frontline aircraft also could be equipped with Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

HAL says the latest contract for the Su-30 MKI fighter jet has increased the company’s total order book for the twin-seater aircraft to 222. “We have already delivered 119 of the total to the IAF,” Chairman R. K. Tyagi says.

Russia also will sell India 71 MI-17 V-5 military helicopters worth $1.5 billion under a follow on order by the IAF for the new ‘V5’ version. Under the contract, 59 of the helicopters will be bought for the IAF, while the remaining 12 will be used by the paramilitary forces.

“The order for the 71 Mi-17 helicopters is an increase from a February 2010 agreement to procure 59 such helos,” the defense ministry official says.

These helicopters would be used by the IAF to replace its existing fleet of older versions of MI-17 and MI-8 aircraft in its inventory.

The MI-17s will add to the 80 of these helicopters already inducted into the Indian armed forces.

joint venture agreement for establishing a manufacturing facility for the Russian MI and Kamov helicopters in India also was signed by Elcom Systems Private Ltd. and OAO Vertoleti Rassi (JSC Helicopters, Russia).

“The proposed manufacturing facility in India between Elcom Systems and Russian Helicopters will serve as a base to manufacture rotorcraft products, and also implement offset projects under various defense contracts in India,” the defense official says.

“The two nations also discussed the progress made in the joint development and production of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft [FGFA],” the defense ministry official says.

The first FGFA prototype is expected to be delivered in 2014 and its production is likely to start in 2020 in India, he adds.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Dec 2012 10:44

Meanwhile, HAL continues to issue RFPs for HTT-40.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 28 Dec 2012 10:56

May be they decided to go ahead and commit their own money in the project and hope for an IAF approval at a latter date..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Dec 2012 11:16

They should have build the HTT-35/40 some time in late 90's would have done a lot good to HAL in confidence and corporate bottom line , its a shame to loose such an opportunity.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Dec 2012 13:05

This is good HAL needs to be aggressive now enough with this "Yes Sir" attitude.

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Dec 2012 21:59

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/def ... el=defence

The JV between Elcom and Russian Helicopters will produce helicopter components in addition to carrying out final assembly and testing.

has this been reported in local press

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 29 Dec 2012 04:36

Just got off the phone with my DEL panwallah mitr:

The first two IAF/GoI VVIP AW101's arrived in New Delhi 2 days ago.
They're fully assembled now, the third one is arriving today afternoon.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Jan 2013 02:42

A lot of information about Rustom II here

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Jan 2013 03:05

Ir ji amazing, expect this to be picked up as well ofcourse they should know where/what to look for

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Jan 2013 07:41

Please drop the 'ji'. I am flattered with your respect, just not comfortable with the salutation

.

Meanwhile, Rajat Pandit is reporting that the European Airbus-330 MRTT has pipped the IL-78 tankers.

Europe pips Russia in mega mid-air refueling aircraft deal.

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said the European Aeronautics Defence and Space Company (EADS) "is now being called for the final commercial negotiations" for acquisition of six Airbus-330 MRTT tankers.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 04 Jan 2013 08:03

indranilroy wrote:Europe pips Russia in mega mid-air refueling aircraft deal.

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said the European Aeronautics Defence and Space Company (EADS) "is now being called for the final commercial negotiations" for acquisition of six Airbus-330 MRTT tankers.

Can 'mega' really be applied to a 6 airplane deal?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 04 Jan 2013 08:33

^^Mega dollar , mega price , it would be a mega-amount deal !

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 04 Jan 2013 08:38

GeorgeWelch wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Europe pips Russia in mega mid-air refueling aircraft deal.

Can 'mega' really be applied to a 6 airplane deal?

there is always option to buy more. In this case also there must have been option for another 3-6 MRTT tankers

also if we need new EL/W-2090 we need IL76 new airframes which are not present i guess.

Can IL78 be converted for AEW&C roles ?????.......

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jan 2013 08:42

tushar_m wrote:
Can IL78 be converted for AEW&C roles ?????.......

No. Not easily. At least I would call it a very bad idea. It would be even more difficult to change one's mind and convert the AEW back into a tanker