Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 30 Dec 2012 00:16

brihaspati ji,

interpretation of the "texts" like Ramayana and Mahabharata also has to change or perhaps shift subtly in the North.

in Andhra, one very pervasive meme is (in Telugu): "Ada dani usuru sarva nashananiki karanam"
translation: A woman's wrath is the surest path to 'sarva nash'.

it is especially used in the context of Sita's abduction by Ravana, and Draupadi's forced stripping by the Kauravas.

I remember vividly my Telugu teacher (a male) from primary school, semi-whispering to all of us in the class: never ever do to a woman what Ravana did, what Kauravas did; destruction will be your only destination in life...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Dec 2012 00:26

^^^Good point!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 00:45

Comparisons with statistics on rape with Western societies should be referenced but to solve the problem it is immaterial. Even 1 incident this type a year in India is 1 too many. That is what we have to internalize and work on. Statistical comparison with a worse off nation is one step away from complacency and we certainly don't need that. Bollywood for decades has endorsed shaming, embarrassing, teasing, stalking women as a method to winning them. the Big B, Dharmendra, Salmans all have endorsed such on the big screen. Is it a big surprise that we have nautanki lewdness in our society then? While we banned kisses on screen we never considered the effect that this lewdness may have on younger generations. However the controversy over reported cases remains. Thats where this post by Victor makes eminent sense to consider:

1. Make it possible to record and enter a case of rape into the justice system bypassing the police if the police have not taken reasonable action within a stipulated time (ie. no FIR lodged, lackadaisical investigation etc).

2. Publish record of rape instances along with police and legal action taken and outcome on a local level. This will show who is doing the right things and who is lagging.

3. Tie improvement or deterioration over time directly to police and judiciary actions. IOW, make both clearly accountable and tie promotions, demotions, disciplinary action to progress or lack thereof.

An easy documentation system for reported crimes. Police feeds into this common database, as also where people can bypass police reporting and feed in complaints. Followed by action, over a period we can look at realistic data and statistics compared to the present.

Thus imminent actions i see possible till now are the following:

1. Fast track Judicial courts. Both Upper and Lower.

2. Improved forensic, investigative abilities for faster clearing.

3. Filing Rape Reports into a Central database, through Police stations and a bypass mechanism.

4. Removing/ undoing common perceptions of winning women through teasing, stalking etc.

5. Campaigns to reduce aggressive MC/BC culture in youth.

6. Include memes like this one pointed by Devesh: "never ever do to a woman what Ravana did, what Kauravas did; destruction will be your only destination in life..."

Saip ji, i missed that categorization. Raping ones wife. Will include it in a later summarization.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 00:54

Another aspect i would 'loud think; on is putting into law appropriating a Rapists share of property. While that may not deter a slum dweller, it may those rich kid or Thakur kinds that feel someone from a 'lower' class is game. I am sure legal modalities can be built up on that scenario.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 02:05

One aspect is puzzling too. there were 6 men in the group. If one was busy violating the girl with a iron tool and removing her intestines, how come none showed any resistance to that act. That only brings to me another sociological aspect in our present day culture that we have to address. The Jhund follow culture. The culture of the sycophant. The lack of individuality in such groups. They will just obey the regressed value system of the group leader. Any outsider opposing it, irrespective of how much truth it may hold is a fiend and deserves to be humiliated. That is what happens when individuals lack any faith in a values of Truth, respect, equality. They've never heard of such values. Not through family, neither through society. Our societal structure has failed to percolate basic values like these in the larger society. So if one person in the group does wrong, the others just smirk and snigger around at the victim. That is what i think happened on the bus that night.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 02:32

while thinking about the changes in laws we should also think about getting rid of language that alludes to rape:

All those Bch*D, Mch*d type of galis
And boycott Bollywood movies that glorify and depict rape and use bad language.

We can do all this without changes to the laws.

All these type of words desensitize us to the enormity of the crime against women.
-

harbans, folks took me wrong when I said dacoity is India unique crime. Its a gathering of people to commit a specific crime and going back to their lives.

What this guys did is dacoity.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Dec 2012 02:34

harbans wrote:Another aspect i would 'loud think; on is putting into law appropriating a Rapists share of property. While that may not deter a slum dweller, it may those rich kid or Thakur kinds that feel someone from a 'lower' class is game. I am sure legal modalities can be built up on that scenario.

Harbans garu,

Such measures will have only limited impact. In AP, some time back, there was an (unofficial) attempt to get the rapists married to the victims. It failed when good for nothing guys started raping girls from well to do families.

If the idea of rape is that (1) physical domination of males over females (2) a violent approach to "enjoy" women, and (3) a paisachik attempt towards invincibility then the best approach is

To castrate every man who caught committing any aggressiveness towards women beyond basic teasing. At the beginning ther will be some false negatives, but it will be a good deterrence because you are taking away the manhood from the individual who is trying to be 'a man' even when the woman is not interested.

When I suggested "we give pepper spray to our wimmens and ask them to use it even on us if we cross certain lines (this needs to be defined)", people didn't like the idea.

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Dec 2012 03:09

A radical solution will be to promote gun culture! When Manu sharma goes out for his digs - he should feel scared. Where is the "high society" that should have stopped him?

Society should change to. Boycott people who support rapists, murderers, law breakers. They are around you! Try to leave a better place for your children in your own

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 03:16

Such measures will have only limited impact. In AP, some time back, there was an (unofficial) attempt to get the rapists married to the victims. It failed when good for nothing guys started raping girls from well to do families.

Ramay Ji, i think it's singularly stupid for arranging marriage between a Rapist and the Girl. It has nothing to do with my suggestion of attaching property or proceeds from the rapists inheritance dues. My suggestion was only to do with some wealthy types in villages raping Dalit girls. Once you attach property that is rightfully the rapists, then the whole family pressure comes upon the wards to behave. I don't see any connection with that and rapists getting married to girl they rape.

When I suggested "we give pepper spray to our wimmens and ask them to use it even on us if we cross certain lines (this needs to be defined)", people didn't like the idea.

Ramay Ji, it's not that the idea is bad. It is not. Many girls do carry such with them too. Most never get to use it. think, we have more than a million deaths a year due to lung cancer, yet many of us smoke, we have million due to liver damage yet we drink, we have 20k rapes ( of which 90% are done by known folks) and we expect 600 million females to carry pepper spray with them?

But why is it that tackling Rape should be taken as seriously or more than tackling smoking related lung cancer? After all lung cancer kills more people. Simply because this is more directly related to Value systems. Which society will not jump in gravity at this sort of save brutality? We have to address and now tackle head on the question how and why this brutality took place. We have to understand how our society could degrade to this extent. How people who call themselves Hindu (and i try my best to associate that with Dharmic) could do so. What was the failing. Without understanding that, maybe pepper spray will make little difference to women on our streets.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Dec 2012 03:43

The stigma has to be on the person doing the sexual assault. In fact the point that Sasikumar makes in a debate organized by the Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... ?ref=video) on this mentions it pointedly. Right now the shame factor is put on the victim of the assault. That has to change. There can be a open "wall of shame" naming the culprits. This can deter some of the local neighbour on neighbour sexual assaults at least in the Indian context, which seems to be the largest segment when broken down by type. These could be the baby steps to start the reform process of society by course of law.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 03:49

Another peeve i have is our dossier culture, here read this:

The Delhi Police have also decided to file a 1000-page chargesheet by January 3. Special prosecutor Dyankrishnan will be conducting the trial on day to day basis.

Why not a 2 page Chargesheet? After if they have to swing 6 feet above the ground it will be based on a single point/ line notification in law. Why the fascination with verbosity? I have known teachers who liked volume over content. Same with Commission reports filed by committee heads. Verbose documents that could be possibly put in a few pages. That verbosity itself is a deterrent in time and the nature of such verbosity causes such files to be pushed into oblivion. A 1000 page dossier will take more than months for judges to go through. Imagine if the prosecution gives that what the defense may give as retaliation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 03:53

Simple one page charging all the seven accused with murder. No need of all hat BS dosas. save that for the pakis!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 03:55

Lilo wrote:Ok guys please keep track of this twitter account @Violenceonwomen

https://twitter.com/Violenceonwomen

It will be exclusively populated by the news items from the RSS feed from earlier.

The tweets get automatically posted on to twitter when ever a new incident gets reported in the feed.
In effect we can track violence against women in India in real time.

Lilo good job.

All of you with twitter accts please spread the feed around. and make it popular.

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Dec 2012 04:13

Bade wrote:The stigma has to be on the person doing the sexual assault. In fact the point that Sasikumar makes in a debate organized by the Hindu (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... ?ref=video) on this mentions it pointedly. Right now the shame factor is put on the victim of the assault. That has to change. There can be a open "wall of shame" naming the culprits. This can deter some of the local neighbour on neighbour sexual assaults at least in the Indian context, which seems to be the largest segment when broken down by type. These could be the baby steps to start the reform process of society by course of law.

Should also be applied to people committing female infanticide.

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Dec 2012 04:17

ramana wrote:Simple one page charging all the seven accused with murder. No need of all hat BS dosas. save that for the pakis!

No sir, a tight case has to be made., in the chain of events, each link needs to be strong. Please read the ranga-billa case verdict at http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1359524/

A very cogent argument is based on why they should be hanged (they were eventually hanged). The current dispensation at the center has played with law and order to divide votes and stay in power. Just for that, this dispensation should go and their supporters should be shamed.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 04:22

Police restructure, that should be under similar command like the armed forces, and directly controlled and budgeted by the commander-in-chief office (prez) or equivalent rank. No direct linking between babooze and police structure. Quarter of the police atrocities ends in restructuring.

Electoral reforms to ensure the correct policy drivers are in place, and as we have become numb to see who is in office or running the show. Any elected person remains in office to the job defined by the people of India and constitution. Another quarter of the problem solved.

Real Estate business ranks top most in the country for black money.. Change the tax structure to directly tax the sale deed, by a fixed percent of 4%, and all transactions and commissions are based on actual sale price. Quarter problem of the whole, here is the rowdy system is disabled here. Without real estate money, absolutely the baseline for rowdy system is demolished.

Computerization of gov functioning, zero tolerance to bribery, besides increased awareness among people that they see a cop or two in the vicinity, street lights, infrastructure planned and implemented for safety of citizens [light-water-sewege-electricity-roads-public transports etc], all play into their respective role to correct a system that is neck deep in $h!t hole of corruption and goonda borgs and viruses.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 04:47

i would ask for demobilizing the Delhi Bullice as first step and bring in the entire force from another part of the country. they are too deep in this mess.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 05:55

Saik< The rumor I hear is that the police is the tip of the hafta collection program of the INC machine.

The beat constable onwards collect and pass it on to the ministers who in turn pass it on to the party high command.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 06:03

Dismantle the police that treats citizens like how Britishers did, with an entirely new setup. Why do we need this police? Useless scums... gosh, they are no better than the rapists by the standards of living. Copying a governance system is fine from any country, but we have indigenize it for "our" use. WE have lost all patriotic sense with the majority of citizens, who are willing to go any extent to be living like slaves. It is the biggest challenge in front of the nation, to correct a billion people to think about freedom, equality, justice and not slavery.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 08:02

Ian Talbott, the former ICs and Oxford Don says in his book "India and Pakistan" that the police services were formed after the 1857 war based on two forces: Royal Ulster Constublary and the Mughal Zabardasti system with the daroga etc in place with a veneer of European control in higher ranks.

You can see both are occupying forces with no accountability to the people they serve. Only to their masters.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 08:15

Per wiki,

IPS is not a law enforcement agency, but a civil service agency. and..

The Civil Services of India (Hindi: भारत की सिविल सेवा) (known simply as the Civil Services) refer to the civil service and the permanent bureaucracy of the Government of India. The civil service system is the backbone of the administrative machinery of the country.[1]

So, how are they going to do law enforcement activity?

They are fundamentally wrongly setup!!

And our political system: Ministers lay down policies, and not people. Here is another aspect to safety. Why would they focus on people safety?

It is high time, we vote for policies than people. copy anything from policy based governing states or anything that benefits human kind should be copied..Many advanced democratic nations are policy centric in their elections.

This police imperialism must end. The political and administrative setup should be driven by people for the people., and not for the governing authorities alone. This is kingship country, and not even close to democracy.

Just by voting, one does not get freedom & safety.

arindam · Post by **arindam** » 30 Dec 2012 08:34

It is high time the intellectuals of our country takes a reality check and give a thought or two on gender equality/inequality! Their absence of comment on this glaringly visible disparity is quite conspicuous.

It is also the responsibility of media to highlight this thought and build a national consensus through the most viable mediums present. Well, I am not asking media to take all the responsibility but at least for once they can shoulder the burden, which they so profusely take proud of.

A few journo have indeed set the ball rolling but would be nice, if for a change it doesn't gather moss, thanks to our goldfish memory syndrome.

It is thus the collective responsibility of sustaining the welcome change with an adept politician at the helm of affair.

This country should not be considered as a fiefdom for heterosexual men avenging their lust while women and home/trans-sexual weep in the corner.

I live in a fairy wonderland, I am happy and satisfied!

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 Dec 2012 09:58

Muppalla wrote:You know very well about me that I did the above things? Why because you are my in-law or what? Just stop trying to paint people as some aliens. You have zero idea of what I am.

No, I don't know you personally. I only read what you post and judge you based on that. If you can tone down on the 'oh I am offended somebody tells me my idea of India is rubbish. how can they do this to me' - I think we can get along.

Swaiziland is a news report that is in the context of rape.

and pray tell us WHAT context is that?

Are all the raped women in India wearing mini skirts or provocative dresses?

This girl was not in mini skirts. was not in a disco out boozing or partying at 2 AM and walking alone. She just went for a movie and for this simplest of lifes pleasures, she became a victim.

Instead of looking at the problems that ail India - law&order and criminal justice - you and some others go on various trips of this is due to mahmud ghazni, this is due to westernizations, aping the US, this is because we need more dharma blah blah.

Most people on this forum would instinctively pick up and rail against any insinuation that "maybe we should not say anything that provokes islamists into a jihad rage". Somehow there - we insist on our rights and expect islamists to follow rules/behave responsibly. We don't advocate self-censorship.

However, when it comes to rape, we go on a "maybe she should not have done this..done that" shyte.

appanrently I have no better connectivity to so-called-crap-on-earth called as India.

you keep saying that and it comes across as projections of inner beliefs.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Dec 2012 10:27

Sigh.....
I did think it was incongruous that the vast majority of protestors are young men. It is one thing to give support but they should definitely not be at the forefront of this.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 813835.cms
Long way to go, I was groped at protest

Within a few seconds, I felt a hand on my behind. I tried to give the person the benefit of doubt by elbowing his arm and twisting around to dislodge his hand, while still taking pictures. But when I knew I was unmistakably being groped, I caught the guy by the arm.

He looked around 25 and had no camera, placards or banners with him. I hit him on the arm a couple of times and gave him a shove, asking him what he was doing and telling him to get away from me. He pretended not to hear and stared straight ahead. I yelled at him some more, hit him on the arm again and a few men in front of me turned around. He slunk off.

I'm not saying all the protesters at Jantar Mantar behaved badly because they didn't. But I will say that we have a lot of work to do in creating a culture of gender equality, which is the only real protection against street sexual harassment of this sort.

Meanwhile this is slowly morphing into yet another attack on the government party. I warned the AH crowd to be careful of this politicization. No good will come of politicization of this as well.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Dec 2012 11:08

Before people politicize this recent headline incident or all the others not discussed openly in media with the same attention that this is getting, should come up with hard numbers first.

Policy changes can be enforced even on the govt in place, or else they will get voted out of power the next time around by the masses.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Dec 2012 12:05

disha wrote:
ramana wrote:Simple one page charging all the seven accused with murder. No need of all hat BS dosas. save that for the pakis!
No sir, a tight case has to be made., in the chain of events, each link needs to be strong. Please read the ranga-billa case verdict at http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/1359524/

A very cogent argument is based on why they should be hanged (they were eventually hanged). The current dispensation at the center has played with law and order to divide votes and stay in power. Just for that, this dispensation should go and their supporters should be shamed.

The car, which was being driven at a high speed, jumped the lights. By the time Inderjeet Singh reached the lights, the traffic from the other direction started flowing and he was forced to stop. He saw the car speeding on Shankar Road up the Ridge and the boy still waiving for help. By the time Inderjeet Singh made to Shankar Road, he lost sight of the car. As he had noted the number of the car, he decided to report the matter (Exhibit Pw 9/A) to Police-Station Rajinder Nagar. It was now 6.45 P.M.

(10) But the report of Inderjeet Singh had no affect on Police-Station Rajinder Nagar. It was to take an hour before relaying the report to Police Control Room. To be exact, it was at 7.40 P.M. that the duty officer of this police-station relayed Inderjeet Singh's report to the Police Control Room as well as to Police-Station Mandir Marg. With this the police at Police-Station Rajinder Nagar washed their hands off this report.

the fact

(218) "THE folly was compounded by another police-officer working at Police Station Rajinder Nagar. Inderjeet Singh, who had lost sight of the offending car, did not lose heart. He went to this police-statical, reported the matter adding that he was lodging the report "on humanitarian ground". But this did not affect the police. Though the report was recorded at 6.45 P.M. the police refused to take action since the crime had not been committed "in their jurisdiction" an every day excuse of the police for its non-action. The information was conveyed to the control room at 7.40 P.M. practically after an hour's delay. There is nothing to show that the control room took any action. Had a responsible police-officer been sitting in the control room, he could not have any difficulty in co-relating the two informations about the kidnapping of two children in Fiat car Hrk 8930 and organising a hunt near about Shankar Road. Had it been done, a routine check of Upper Ridge Road would have brought them to Budha Jayanti Park and the car in question.

the observation

(219) We can only trust and hope that the police of Delhi will take the public reports seriously and act promptly if they want the public to co-operate. The public is likely to refuse co-operation till the apathy of the police lasts.

The one hour delay that proved fateful.

Even in the present case.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 30 Dec 2012 12:26

As someone posted earlier, looks like alcohol was a key factor in this case....Alcohol converted a person who was probably already a monster to begin with into a complete Hannibal Lecter.

Maybe a permit system needs to be in place - where alcohol is not allowed to be sold to those who have a history...Implementation will be a problem - but at least its one more checkpoint.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 Dec 2012 12:51

harbans wrote:Another peeve i have is our dossier culture, here read this:

The Delhi Police have also decided to file a 1000-page chargesheet by January 3. Special prosecutor Dyankrishnan will be conducting the trial on day to day basis.
Why not a 2 page Chargesheet? After if they have to swing 6 feet above the ground it will be based on a single point/ line notification in law. Why the fascination with verbosity? I have known teachers who liked volume over content. Same with Commission reports filed by committee heads. Verbose documents that could be possibly put in a few pages. That verbosity itself is a deterrent in time and the nature of such verbosity causes such files to be pushed into oblivion. A 1000 page dossier will take more than months for judges to go through. Imagine if the prosecution gives that what the defense may give as retaliation.

ramana wrote:Simple one page charging all the seven accused with murder. No need of all hat BS dosas. save that for the pakis!

This is heights, now you people want the cops to file charge sheet according to the no. of pages that you want in it ??? While we are at it why don't you just go kick the judge out and sit in his place.Just because you are angry doesn't mean that now you get a license to question each and every step the cops are taking to ensure justice for the victim. If people here are so pissed off with cops then they should ask for implementation of Police Reforms. SC had ordered states to do that since 2006 and except Sikkim no one has implemented all the directives issued in the reforms. Read about it here

Bureau of Police Research and Development

ramana wrote:i would ask for demobilizing the Delhi Bullice as first step and bring in the entire force from another part of the country. they are too deep in this mess.

A year later the "New Force" also becomes like the old one and we are back to square one then what is your plan for that ???

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 Dec 2012 12:55

saar, the TN govt runs on selling alcohol. It is now a 18,000 cr business for TASMAC. you should see the lines that start at 5 PM itself with people getting a "cutting" and pickle/bhoondi mix and a plastic cup with water already filled. They down one or two and mill around there being a general PITA for the public. You should see the plight of women who have to stand there to catch buses.

As I said, unless you see it / experience this life - you have no idea what India is to vast majority of women.

Here are the stats for TASMAC year on year

Fiscal Year Revenue in Crores % Change
2002 - 03 2,828.09
2003 - 04 3,639 28.67%
2004 - 05 4,872 33.88%
2005 - 06 6,086.95 24.94%
2006 - 07 7,300 19.93%
2007 - 08 8,822 20.85%
2008 - 09 10,601.5 20.17%
2009 - 10 12,491 17.82%
2010 - 11 14,965.42 19.80%
2011 - 12 18,081.16 20.82%

Now it has come to a stage where no TN govt can wean itself away from this revenue.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 30 Dec 2012 13:04

Gusji, thanks for bringing the alcohol aspect to the discussion. Drinking generally lowers many inhibitions and encourages wanton behavior. There is a marked difference in the average street nuisance (a misnomer for bad behavior) levels between dry states and wet states. Comparing Pune and Vadodara, I can challenge anyone to compare the bad effect of allowing drunk people to roam around on the street. I do not know if there are other states where drinking in public places is prohibited, but the TN situation mentioned is equally common in most cities in MH.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 30 Dec 2012 13:10

Gus wrote:Now it has come to a stage where no TN govt can wean itself away from this revenue.

Nobody's talking about prohibition...A permit system that removes those who haven't shown responsibility might drop revenues by 5% at best.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 30 Dec 2012 13:29

In TN, the behaviour of drunken people is due to the poor availability of alcohol. In Chennai, the alcohol is available only in Govt TASMACs. Even earlier, before TASMACs came into picture, the typical wineshop looks like a shady hideout. The front of the wineshop is shuttered with grill and the buyer has to shove his money into a small opening and pick whatever booze is available. There is no bar where you can sit and drink, which is I think is prohibited by law. Since consuming alcohol is frowned upon at home, people drink on the road or in the pathetic illegal hideouts adjoining the wineshop. This leads to a culture where drinking and rolling around the road is preferable to having a bar where people can drink in peace.
I can see the difference in Chennai and Bangalore drink culture, having lived in both the places. I hardly see the loutish behaviour in Bangalore where alcohol is freely available.
Any personal "vice" which is regulated and prohibited seem to lead in a worse situation. JMT.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Dec 2012 13:33

http://www.dailypioneer.com/city/117039 ... olice.html

Ram Singh, Vinay Sharma, Pavan Gupta and Mukesh — the four involved in the most gruesome gangrape the national Capital has ever witnessed — did not show any signs of repentance and behaved like hardened criminals, police sources revealed.

Police officers involved in their interrogation liken their behavior to history-sheeters who are seasoned criminals. This has spurred cops to verify their antecedents whether they were involved in other criminal activities. The Delhi Police has put some of its best investigators to interrogate them but the gang of four has not displayed any signs of guilt.

An investigator said that despite the fact that they were involved in torture, they are not showing any remorse or regret. They appear to be normal, as if they have done nothing wrong. Their body language and the behaviour during sustained interrogation has stunned the investigators who now supect their involvment in other criminal activities. “First timers never behave like this,” he added.

It is more likely that some cases may have never been reported and that had emboldened them. Investigators said the accused were insolent, behaving as if the crime has not affected them. Ram Singh, the main accused who was arrested Monday, goes about his routine unmoved by the plight of his victim, policemen said.

Police have yet to come across a case lodged against Ram Singh, but investigators say they will not be surprised if it turns out that the man has a criminal history. Ram Singh’s elder brother Rajesh was convicted in a robbery case and is currently lodged in Tihar Jail; his younger brother, Mukesh, is a co-accused in the gangrape case.

It was on Ram Singh’s instance that the police were able to nab three others involved in the case, including his brother. Mukesh, however, has claimed that he had thrashed the 28-year-old male friend who accompanied the woman, but had not raped the woman. They were on the prowl on Sunday night after a liquor binge in jhuggis of their common friend Murari at Ravidas Nagar in Sector-3 of RK Puram before they found the victim and her friend.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Dec 2012 14:22

Tackling social issues, including rape and female foeticide/infanticide needs a mindset change. Imho it'll only occur with a generational change. As long as such crimes are justified by old foggies calling young girls wearing skirts or going out alone at night with or without male company or going to pubs/bars/nightclubs as "asking for it" (yeah right! like that woman who was raped by the security guard in her apartment who thought she would be ready to sleep with him because he saw men visit her at her apt right?) such crimes will always occur. Its a vicious cycle really. This sort of society is from which policemen are drawn. These policemen do not accept rape cases when the victim comes forward, if such a woman comes forward she has to run from pillar to post to register a case, get it to court, get it fought fairly, suffer ignominy of having to show a judge just exactly in what position she was laying when she was raped (yep, happened in a court in AP), blamed by the police that she is stirring up trouble, parents get threatened with death if the rapist is a big shit. If despite all this the rapist gets a jail term, he gets out by hook or crook by appealing in a higher court and the poor girl and her family are way too exhausted after years that they don't want anything to do with the whole thing any longer.

Stop justifying such actions. That would be the first step. Police reform from ground up, as recommended by various commissions over the years would be the next. If the police is seen as helping the common man and end up getting anywhere close to a 50% catch rate (forget about conviction, that will come on its own later if the police do a good job at investigation and charge-sheeting), we'll see a drop in such cases. Police action of prosecuting current cases will act as a deterrent to future occurrences. Reduction will lead to better work.

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Dec 2012 14:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:....Meanwhile this is slowly morphing into yet another attack on the government party. I warned the AH crowd to be careful of this politicization. No good will come of politicization of this as well.

Like it or not, it is already politicized. By inept, uncaring, arrogant attitude of the Delhi government, the MHA, the Police and then the red queen and the lilliputs going in for a state funeral. What are you trying to protect? Your embarrassment?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Dec 2012 16:38

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 819104.cms

Only one conviction out of 635 rape cases in Delhi this year, reveals home ministry data
PTI

Any solution must improve the conviction rate in least possible time.

Advait · Post by **Advait** » 30 Dec 2012 17:00

Prasad wrote: As long as such crimes are justified by old foggies calling young girls wearing skirts or going out alone at night with or without male company or going to pubs/bars/nightclubs as "asking for it"

Don't think only old foggies believe this nonsense. Young, "educated" men are still saying the same. Disgusting. This kind of mindset is not going to go away easily.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 17:09

Chaanakya Ji, faster track courts will have to depend upon better and reliable forensic capabilities. If we achieve that both false accusations and convictions rates should become better. Another key point that is to be kept in perspective was made yesterday is reporting mechanisms and documentation procedures must be modernized. I don't think our Judicial and Police bureaucracy and systems are quite familiar with such management of data and consequent analysis. A very key reform needed that has been also mentioned here is the psychology of the Police role from that of protection of it's masters i.e, the political establishment to primary that of securing the security of it's citizenship.

1. Fast track time bound courts relying on modern and better forensic capabilities.
2. Modern Documentation procedures and associated analytics.
3. Changing Police thinking: From protection of ruling classes to protection of citizenry.
4. Sensitivity training for Police personnel and audited certification on same.

Not very sure what preamble and primary changes in structure are required to achieve pt 3. But these points are key Police and Judicial reforms from what i gather the last few pages.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Dec 2012 17:15

The front of the wineshop is shuttered with grill and the buyer has to shove his money into a small opening and pick whatever booze is available. There is no bar where you can sit and drink, which is I think is prohibited by law.

Saravanan, this is a key point and i mentioned something similar in context that we have to watch out for people trying to sham out of their responsibilities by banning alcohol, closing pubs etc. While the elites will still have 5 star outlets for recreation, the lower classes have none. They sit in male packs behind shut fronts of liquor shops and once drunk talking to each other hit the streets and become a menace. Hard working citizenry also like to have avenues where they can relax in a responsible manner. Such outlets must be legalized and monitored for transgressions. All that requires much harder work than calling for ban type solutions. We have to crystallize further Key Police Reforms, Key Social Reforms. What these mean. How control and moderation is achieved.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Dec 2012 17:47

+1 to prasad.

The entire culture of 'non-enforcement' starts with women not being taken seriously. Even a beat cop will laugh at 'madam' and walk away until 'sir' is there give some urgency to it. This is not going to change just by some random demobilization or changing British era laws. Forget rural India, this non-serious attitude pervades even this forum of upstanding 'elites'. I have said many times that if you put the question, 'Are women the equal of men?' to the vote, folks would be stunned by the result. I don't think it would be even close. IMHO people would be stunned by the results on this forum even.

WRT alcohol, the TASMAC's don't just sell alcohol, they sell cheap alcohol. You can buy 750ml of Brandy from MP distilleries for Rs200-Rs250 or $4-$5 per bottle, which probably makes it the cheapest alcohol in the world by far, except maybe parts of UK. Atleast here in S.TN almost every TASMAC has a small bar attached out back that is usually run by a 'entrepreneur' read employee. Usually, there is a refrigerator, couple of fans, some 'spicy' foods to encourage drinking, etc. You have to pay a premium of Rs10 to use these 'bars'. But there is nothing like the Bangalore pub culture. Still alcohol misbehavior is an excuse. Folks who were monsters anyway use it to say that the alcohol made them do it. IMO the vast majority of men are able to control themselves even when drunk. The rest are just misbehaving and usually get locked up for the night by the cops.