Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 18:44

No alcohol can make a person go wild like this.. if the level of alcohol is the matter of the problem, then under intoxicated one can't even drive, meaning the actions are inconsistent. BTW, there is least logical brain activity is required to do an act that one is regularly doing.. in fact with alcohol, certain people can pen poems better than not being intoxicated. The theory does not apply to all.

Fundamentally, these criminals are habitual criminals and not one time going mad cases. These are hardcore b@$turds in our social setup. The only way to safety is remove all the evil access for free money. Busting black money will solve all the three problem in shot - cop-babu-goonda nexus.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 Dec 2012 18:52

yogendra wrote:The data on the compliant to fir to chargesheet to prosucution to conviction was there in the other thread. My point is not that forensic evidence is not collected. It is - that it is collected lots of times after it is no longer valid. Maybe that is how slow the police are to file an FIR or that is an intentional decision to go slow made by the police based on their 'personal' opinion on the character of the girl.

A forensic evidence doesn't become invalid after a certain period of time. It's nonsensical. How come a fact (forensic evidence in this case) becomes invalid after a point of time ??? You might want to say as I said before that if the victim delays to file an FIR then it might be hard to gather forensic evidence than if the victim approaches police as soon as the crime has happened.

yogendra wrote:What if we have a law that makes it compulsory for police/hospital to immediately (within 2-4 hrs) have the swabs taken and stored with a receipt and unique token number given in return. Whether they file an FIR or not is immaterial. Because evidence here dies fast ending into a tu tu main main trial in court trying to establish if even an act of sex (whether consensual or forced comes later) took place between the accused and victim.

This allows a woman to walk into a police station or directly to an hospital (therby short circuiting the police) and ask for the evidence to be collected / swabbed and preserved. The police/doctor will not have any discretionary power over accepting or declining such a request coupled with a time bound action taken (2-4 hrs) response. If the local pandu/doctor fails to act on it then they will be dismissed.

Once the victim has the confidence that the evidence is preserved, they will feel more comfortable about filing the case of rape.

This would also help immensely the victims of rape done by known persons.

While providing justice to a rape victim is a priority it must also always be kept in mind than whenever a law is being framed it must be made sure that the law should be such that it cannot be used to harrass someone by any person who wishes to use it as such because of the inherent bias in the law. What you propose is one such case. In what you propose a woman can easily misuse it to harass someone. Court's are a place to get justice not revenge. And why go around reinventing wheel by supplying a "unique token no." when FIR does the same thing ???

The gross misuse of section 498A (Anti Dowry Law) is one such example where womens have used it to harass there inlaws or husbands even when they weren't at any fault.

yogendra wrote:On a higher level, you cannot cure apathy by giving/maintaining discretionary powers to authorities. Remove their discretionary powers when it come to matters of facts (science, forensic..) and you will find that their views on religious, social, economic, political angle matters not one bit.

Peace.

The problem is not giving of discretionary power but authorities not being answerable for there mistakes. Also it's impractical to leave authorities toothless or to draw a law for each and every thing to be done while handling a case. You have to put your trusts in the authorities to deliver justice but since our system cares about discretionary power's more than the justice that's why we have what we have.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 18:57

Empower the people.. with least weapons as possible. Sometimes that can give personal safety.

I like the women here with dandas:-

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dyna ... 14944f.jpg
kittur rani chennama ki jai!

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/n ... epage=true

I humbly request folks to provide their women and children with pepper sprays, tasers and torch (live fire - gas lighter) all in one accessory. This can be sold to 1/2 billion people nearly. Good market for the manufacturers.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Dec 2012 20:13

SaiK ji,

Alcohol magnified the inherent asuric nature. It doesn't do the same with the daivic qualities.

Sagar ji, often section 498a is abused by the parents of the girl, most probably the male relatives.

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 30 Dec 2012 20:18

Sagar G wrote:
yogendra wrote:The data on the compliant to fir to chargesheet to prosucution to conviction was there in the other thread. My point is not that forensic evidence is not collected. It is - that it is collected lots of times after it is no longer valid. Maybe that is how slow the police are to file an FIR or that is an intentional decision to go slow made by the police based on their 'personal' opinion on the character of the girl.
A forensic evidence doesn't become invalid after a certain period of time. It's nonsensical. How come a fact (forensic evidence in this case) becomes invalid after a point of time ??? You might want to say as I said before that if the victim delays to file an FIR then it might be hard to gather forensic evidence than if the victim approaches police as soon as the crime has happened.

I did not mean a forensic evidence once collected becomes invalid after a period of time. What i meant is that in a rape case the more the collection of the forensic evidence is delayed the more it vanishes due to normal biological processes. For example dna and semen identification might not be possible if the police decides to file an FIR after 2 weeks and then send the victim for a forensic examination.

Sagar G wrote:
yogendra wrote:What if we have a law that makes it compulsory for police/hospital to immediately (within 2-4 hrs) have the swabs taken and stored with a receipt and unique token number given in return. Whether they file an FIR or not is immaterial. Because evidence here dies fast ending into a tu tu main main trial in court trying to establish if even an act of sex (whether consensual or forced comes later) took place between the accused and victim.

This allows a woman to walk into a police station or directly to an hospital (therby short circuiting the police) and ask for the evidence to be collected / swabbed and preserved. The police/doctor will not have any discretionary power over accepting or declining such a request coupled with a time bound action taken (2-4 hrs) response. If the local pandu/doctor fails to act on it then they will be dismissed.

Once the victim has the confidence that the evidence is preserved, they will feel more comfortable about filing the case of rape.

This would also help immensely the victims of rape done by known persons.
While providing justice to a rape victim is a priority it must also always be kept in mind than whenever a law is being framed it must be made sure that the law should be such that it cannot be used to harrass someone by any person who wishes to use it as such because of the inherent bias in the law. What you propose is one such case. In what you propose a woman can easily misuse it to harass someone. Court's are a place to get justice not revenge. And why go around reinventing wheel by supplying a "unique token no." when FIR does the same thing ???

The gross misuse of section 498A (Anti Dowry Law) is one such example where womens have used it to harass there inlaws or husbands even when they weren't at any

Do show me a scenario where it can be misused like the anti dowry law. Are you afraid that after a bout of consensual sex the women would go present the evidence and file a rape charge?

Sagar G wrote:
yogendra wrote:On a higher level, you cannot cure apathy by giving/maintaining discretionary powers to authorities. Remove their discretionary powers when it come to matters of facts (science, forensic..) and you will find that their views on religious, social, economic, political angle matters not one bit.

Peace.
The problem is not giving of discretionary power but authorities not being answerable for there mistakes. Also it's impractical to leave authorities toothless or to draw a law for each and every thing to be done while handling a case. You have to put your trusts in the authorities to deliver justice but since our system cares about discretionary power's more than the justice that's why we have what we have.

Discretionary powers to decide on matters of opinion is not taken away. The police could still be sympathetic (rightly or wrongly) to the accused while investigating. They may or may not file an FIR, but if the evidence has been preserved then the vicitm and her lawyers still have an option of appealing in the court with lesser fear of losing.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Dec 2012 20:26

At the least FIR should be made to be filed automatically with no need for a signature or a police station. Someone (on behalf of the victim if the victim had no access to Internet)should be able to file it online. That will force the police and other agencies investigate. SMS/mobile may be another way to file. That way people need not go to dreaded places like police stations.

(again please don't jump on NRIs and telling them that internet in India is only with 0..02% of Indians)

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Dec 2012 20:31

What Delhi and India can do to improve its police

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 20:39

RamY.. the argument is not about enhancement /augmented behavior.. The core behavior of the rapist & criminals are in the question. No alcohol addition or deletion of it, can make that core behavior change., on which these alcohol only gives these guys to sustain their behavior.

Don't tell me these drunkards are one time drinkers.. They must be habitual drinkers.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 Dec 2012 20:51

yogendra wrote:I did not mean a forensic evidence once collected becomes invalid after a period of time. What i meant is that in a rape case the more the collection of the forensic evidence is delayed the more it vanishes due to normal biological processes. For example dna and semen identification might not be possible if the police decides to file an FIR after 2 weeks and then send the victim for a forensic examination.

What you are talking about is police apathy and I have already said it's a totally different thing. If you want to read more about SOP that is followed in a rape case then read

yogendra wrote:Do show me a scenario where it can be misused like the anti dowry law. Are you afraid that after a bout of consensual sex the women would go present the evidence and file a rape charge?

Yes that is one big loophole in the "Law" that you propose. One recent example is of the French Diplomat Pascal who was accused of rape of his daughter by his wife. Read about it here. Though the matter is still sub judice looking at the evidences presented in front of the court both circumstantial and forensic it's doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that something is really fishy.

Read this to understand the risks of framing a biased law Rape law, a double-edged sword in India

yogendra wrote:Discretionary powers to decide on matters of opinion is not taken away. The police could still be sympathetic (rightly or wrongly) to the accused while investigating. They may or may not file an FIR, but if the evidence has been preserved then the vicitm and her lawyers still have an option of appealing in the court with lesser fear of losing.

But you are giving the power for preserving the evidence into the hands of the woman who can very well misuse it as she may wish to and that's what we shouldn't aim for. Our laws should be balanced not biased.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2012 21:10

Developments can't be on pockets like delhi or mumbai.. It has to base on national requirements and comprehensive approach to growth. If you don't do this, you will give rise to vengeance from lower priority folks when they see higher profiles on the streets. It is an unacceptable formula, especially considering safety matters.

Safety, infrastructure, and core developments [roads, electricity, telephone, water, health facilities, industrial access] are important for villages too.

So, a safety plan for delhi is crappy enough.. and will cater to dikshits and kalmadi clans.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 Dec 2012 21:39

Arjun wrote:Nobody's talking about prohibition...A permit system that removes those who haven't shown responsibility might drop revenues by 5% at best.

The problem here is govt looks at it as a revenue source and has little incentive in doing anything that reduces that revenue. Right now, they don't even care about healthcare costs, welfare of men who drink, and the family they beat up when they get home, loss of productivity, opportunity costs for the family which is losing a steady stream of income on booze etc.

Also, when you introduce any permit/regulation/license system - it is only going to introduce corruption/misuse/abuse along with it.

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 30 Dec 2012 23:02

Sagar G wrote: Read this to understand the risks of framing a biased law Rape law, a double-edged sword in India

I am quoting from the article here

With most rape cases having no witnesses, it is the word of the victim against the words of the accused. So are laws unfairly tilted in favour of the victim?
“In most cases the tendency of our legislature is that if there is consistent failure to deliver justice whether it is anti-dowry laws or anti-rape laws, if the police don’t do honest investigation… instead of fixing the police, instead of expediting court proceedings what we tend to do is to make laws more draconian,” Kishwar said.

“The burden of proof is very often put on the accused as is the case with anti-dowry or domestic violence laws. The testimony of the person who claims to be the victim is supposed to be given much greater weightage. In a way this is good sense because women are treated shoddily. Rape trials tend to be so ugly that it’s like being publicly raped all over again. The rape law says the identity of the victim cannot be disclosed because women’s lives are ruined if they are publicly identified. Here we have declared the alleged perpetrator of crime a rapist even before the trial,” Kishwar added.

The reason why the word of the victim is taken as the truth is because the courts know that the system has failed intentionally or otherwise to produce any other shred of forensic/medical evidence. If this is because of police apathy, then putting the onus on correcting that back on the failed system won't work.

“There is no question of the accused misusing the law. The trial will go on in the case. Accused has only one agenda and that is to get out of the accusation. Since the amendment in the rape law in 1983… the conviction rate is dismal. Many men get acquitted because there are no evidences. Police investigations are not done properly. Cases are not filed at the correct time, there is no medical evidence, doctors don’t standby the victims. What is the motive of a girl to file a case against an actor in whose house she is working?” said Agnes.

Cases are not filed immediately because the police dilly dally to verify and investigate the charge and then - if there is no money making potential - file the case. You also have been repeatedly stating that the SOP is for a forensic examination. If it is a SOP then why is almost everyone (including the courts causing them to give more weight-age to victim's words) complaining about the lack of medical/forensic evidence?

Kishwar said that the police must carry out an impartial and proper investigation in such cases. “Most important is the quality of police investigation. There can be DNA tests etc. So there is a whole procedure of going through it,” she said.

Expecting the police to carry out an impartial and proper investigation is again passing the ball back to the current failed system.
The article is based on an old discussion from Shiney Ahuja's case from before his conviction. His guilt has been established and he has been convicted based only on the fast action of the police (because of pressure from women's group) and the immediate medical examination and forensic analysis. What about many many more cases where rich/powerful men are involved, eg Abhishek Kasliwal, son of the owner of Shriram Mills

In the link for SOP, these are the first four steps to be followed for rape against women. It differs for child sexual abuse.

a) Every SHO shall ensure that at his Police Station a lady police official/officer not below the rank of a Head Constable available round the clock.
b) As soon as a complaint of the offence is received, the duty officer receiving the complaint/information shall call the lady police official/officer present at the police station and make the victim and her family comfortable.
c) The duty officer, immediately, upon receipt of the complaint/ information intimate the “Rape Crises Cell” on its notified helpline number.
d) After making preliminary enquiry/investigation, the Investigation Officer along with the lady police official/officer available, escort the victim for medical examination.

(I am assuming that medical examination also involves forensic samples being collected and analyzed. The reason why I am not sure is that, the SOP for child sexual abuse specifically states at STEP 14.
The investigating officer shall promptly refer for forensic examination clothing and articles necessary to be examined, to the forensic laboratory which shall deal with such cases on priority basis to make its report available at an early date.)

Now what would happen if we moved the step d) -specifically the medical examination- to step a)? How is that going to increase or decrease the chance of the law being misused than what it currently is? Infact with the forensic evidence being the basis for all rape cases, the court can become more accommodating of the accused's version too.

I don't want the onus of the impartial investigation to be in the hands of the local police. It is not going to happen. The victim needs to have the option to only disclose the perps name after the medical test and forensic sample are collected and stored.

This would correct the asymmetry in the system because the women is not just a victim but also the (container of the) evidence. The woman must have the option to select which she wants to be at what stage not the police or anyone else. She can be the evidence initially and one's it is duplicated (in the form of forensic samples) can go back to becoming the victim by naming the perp.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Dec 2012 23:03

On the importance of role of the beat cop in developing trust in the police.
http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/313088/kir ... women.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2012 23:21

The RK Raghvan article starts out with the premise that Delhi Police is blameless. It ws the bribery that allowed the bus to ply. and it was venal negligence that the bus was not stopped when it was plying for hours with curtains drawn and lights out. Atleast it could have saved the life of the victim by prompt arrest. He credits them with prompt arrest when the true source of the info that led to the arrests based on public news reports was the hafta diary off the beat constable.

The Union Cabinet thru the MHA controls the Delhi Police for they dont want the French Revolution. And by naming it dp they have plausible deniability as to who is in charge-Delhi govt or Union Cabinet?
BTW Kiran Bedi had her chance with the ah movement and was found lacking. Besides what did she do while in govt with her high profile selection as first woman IPS officer? Not much except get publicity for a thawrted political life.

Every BRF thread on Police Reform starts with beat constable. Please see the thread in Tech and Econ forum.

Ye the beat constable is the face of the Govt corruption due to the quota he has to fulfill for his police and political masters.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 00:11

ramana wrote:The RK Raghvan article starts out with the premise that Delhi Police is blameless. It ws the bribery that allowed the bus to ply. and it was venal negligence that the bus was not stopped when it was plying for hours with curtains drawn and lights out. Atleast it could have saved the life of the victim by prompt arrest. He credits them with prompt arrest when the true source of the info that led to the arrests based on public news reports was the hafta diary off the beat constable.

Ramana,

I don't understand how you can call the DP venal and in the next sentence expect them to fix society. As far a letting the bus go, such laws are violated a million times everyday by Indians to get their jobs done. If every bus had to conform there would be no bus on the street at all. I suspect just driving from your door to your office, every Indian violates about 25 laws everyday.

Compliance has to come from society. Police only has resources to punish, it is not a corrective agency. This is not dissimilar to everyone throwing trash on the streets and then complaining how filthy everything is and how no one from corporation does any thing.

No one thinks rape can be eliminated from society. No society in the world has been free from it. We must stick to what can be done, freeing women, making their issues a priority, allowing them to fully influence the system and to demand that the money they pay in taxes is returned to them in services. Women themselves will be able to reduce the violence against them if the reins are in their hands.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Dec 2012 00:21

^^^ I am pretty sure just a change in the party in Govt in power can change the crime statistics by 20%+.

While all the long term social engineering goals are all fine and dandy (actually they are not, I disagree with some of the basic premises there) -- short term, simple law and order problems can not be brushed aside or made hostage to long term solutions.

If short term goals are not met -- how will long term changes happen anyway?

Any long term change has to come from -- short term actions. And big revolution would never (should never) happen, we need to take small immediate steps to reach the over all goal.

The shortest terms goals here would be
1) Removal of DP commissioner (even if symbolic)
2) Delhi govt and Media regularly tracking the cases of rape already filed and relevant statistics.
3) Complete boycott of Congress and Shiela Dixit by Delhi over next election cycle.

Lets do some basic little steps before aiming for vague long term solutions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2012 00:32

Theo, I called politicians venal not the police.

BTW 1962 disaster reformed the Indian Army.
Despite so many riots, terrorist attacks, assassination of PMs. the police has not been reformed.

It still functions as a civil service and no law enforcement service.

For them its another govt job. Try to get what I am saying.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 00:53

I don't think any politician is going to be stopping a bus. No you very much called the police venal. I don't disagree with that characterization BTW.

There is no government department that does not look at itself as a government job. I get what you are saying, but can only scratch my head in how far out of step the DP would have to go to achieve that 'service' aspect. In rural TN the police is part of the social structure, essentially another caste, who work to maintain the caste prescriptions as this is what keeps the peace. Occasionally the state government steps in but mostly the laws of the state are for 'guidance' only. It once a crime is committed that the police steps in.

Once the crime had been committed the police very much did their job, all 6 suspects were picked up double quick, including one in Bihar. Now they are slapping on murder charges and the prosecution is gearing up for the case. Compare that to the platform push case in NY. There too the police had warnings about the suspect who was mentally unstable. But they could do nothing as no large crime had been committed by her. Now that the crime is committed they can finally act against her and prosecute. This is what I mean when I say prevention is up to society.

I don't think it is too much to ask for a society where women are treated equally and with respect. Examples show that this can be achieved very quickly if society puts its head to it. Without such social respect all else is only pi$$ing into the wind.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Dec 2012 01:11

Look,the same laws where there when we gained Independence.What has changed since then? In the '60s you scarcely heard of a corrupt IAS officer.Today you scarcely hear of an honest one! Policemen were upright and role models.One relative,a famous DGP, told me on entering University that he was there to help me if I was in genuine trouble,but woe betide me If I ever broke the law. I shivered!

The sad fact is that the post-freedom struggle political class and their cronies,babudom-who are mainly responsible,have but one goal in mind.To grab as much as they can from the national till and try and perpetuate their hold onto power.Like a fish that rots from the head,we are now seeing just how rotten is the head of this UPA-2 govt., led by the mendicant of snake-oil,Dr.Man Mohan Singh and his party pres. Sonia G.They combined have ruined the nation economically and morally over the last 10 years and they must face retribution from the Indian people.In what form it will come,only the man upstairs knows.Remove them and replace them with just ANYONE and you are on the first step to making India a safer place.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 02:49

Wrt the Hindu article, which is very correct wrt to Police reform. However stress on Delhi alone is incorrect. Just today there is news of a brutal gangrape and murder of a woman and her husband in WB. A case was not registered till i read the first reports coming out. Even in the present state, the police do catch rapists. The last person to hang before Kasab was Dhananjoy Chatterjee for rape and murder. Billa and Ranga hung too for the same. So we have been hanging rapists. Wrt Rape the biggest reform the cops need is sensitivity training and better investigative backup setups. However with or without reform some of the below will continue, so:

A key question to consider is also this: While many countries may have higher rape statistics than India in per cap terms, why is it that India is considered more unsafe for women? Why is the perception so? Is it because of (a) High profile Rape and Rape/Murder cases (b) Common place Lewdness, groping. (c) Both.

I think of all (b) is the area maximum stress should be laid by making societal changes.
I think of all (a) will be curbed by reducing (b) and Police reform.

That is why i raked in the NASA Normal accident theory. For 'n' number of lewd comments/ groping type incidents, say (n/x)=y number incidents of molestation will happen.And y number of molestation incidents will lead to (y/m)=z number of Rapes. And of z number of rapes, (z/b)=q number of Rape cum murders will take place.

We tend to focus and firefight on q and z. The real fight to reduce the value of q and z lies in reducing n in the social setup we live in.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 03:10

Another improvement on conviction rates and time taken to analyze cases may lie in framing of cases, our Dossier mentality. Why the penchant for a 1000 page one before the document is even ready. Charge sheets are supposed to be concise documents, not vague and verbose ones. We have no real indication how many cases have been delayed, dropped because of voluminous, vague charge sheets. Here is a lawyers blog on why it is important charge sheets are to be concise and precise.

http://firstappeal.blogspot.in/2007/09/ ... sheet.html

Statement of proposed charges that form a prosecutor's (government's) case in a criminal offense.

Definition of a Charge sheet

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 03:28

harbans wrote:A key question to consider is also this: While many countries may have higher rape statistics than India in per cap terms, why is it that India is considered more unsafe for women? Why is the perception so? Is it because of (a) High profile Rape and Rape/Murder cases (b) Common place Lewdness, groping. (c) Both.

This is a question that should be answered by women and not men.

My wife says she feels unsafe anytime other women disappear. She says this is very unpredictable in India. 8:00 pm everything is good and tons of women on streets, 9:30 she comes out of shop and suddenly the women have disappeared and she feels unsafe. It is when she is isolated this way that bad things happen.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 03:46

Theo you're right. But women have answered that repeatedly. The ultimate is obviously the worst. Yet it's the mass lewdness, groping that cause the chill of the worst. But mass lewdness is propagated by generations of Icons. Devanand Ji, Amitabh Bachan Ji, Dharmendra Ji, Salman Ji, Aamir Ji all have propagated that harassing, stalking women is the way to win them. So what if they don't like it. 'Mana janab ne pukara nahin' to 'jooma chooma de de' to 'aaja meri gaadi mey bhait ja' is common place for youth to harass anyone they feel lusting about. On being frustrated and not winning the girl, acid comes handy, molestation becomes norm, MC/BC aggression and in some cases the jerks just yank of the girls uterus and intestines. The social key to reform and civility lies right here. Nowhere else. Make those Icons apologize and those attitudes Uncool. A few TV ads by the Big B and others against this culture and we will start seeing shifting trends. Do ask your wife if this will make a difference. I will encourage others also to do the same..

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 31 Dec 2012 04:49

A hel*** of a lot can be done by just making it simpler to make an FIR. If you try to report something in the police station, you are likely to be subject to harasment from the police. No police station wants to have a bad record, hence they make it near impossible to make a complain. Just try...

One way could be to separate the reporting and investigation. A national helpline should be established, where you can report a claim. Next step should be that the "report collection" responsible makes an appointment with you, and take down your complaint. The complaint should then be assigned to the police station for further investigation.

At least one will start to get some real statistics and the local goons life will become at least a bit harder.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 05:51

Rishirishi wrote:A hel*** of a lot can be done by just making it simpler to make an FIR. If you try to report something in the police station, you are likely to be subject to harasment from the police. No police station wants to have a bad record, hence they make it near impossible to make a complain. Just try...
At least one will start to get some real statistics and the local goons life will become at least a bit harder.

Totally agree. We have to start with something simple and tangible (much like Sanku suggested in an earlier post).

There have to be some short term steps that we must try and initiate. By definition, long-term steps and strategies are less like to happen, and given the bureaucratic inertia and the history of the judicial system, it may never happen. (I will be very happy if the strategies like 'changing cultural mindset' and suchlike actually happen. These are fundamental changes and will take time, years/decades- if it ever gets started).

I am totally with the above suggestion for the following reason: lodging a rape complaint is CURRENTLY law. No new law has to be passed. If there is a way to ensure that every woman who has a rape complaint atleast gets entered into a system, that's a huge win right there. We'll have statistics as to how many cases are (and are not) being worked on. Naysayers might say 'what's the point of just accepting rape complaints, is prosecuting the case not just as important'. I completely agree. The steps are: make it possible for any woman wanting to register a complaint to do so easily. This is a necessary first step before any rape investigation can take place. Once complaints can be entered easily, I expect there to be tsunami of complaints, and then we are stuck at step 2 where there are a 100 cases and resources to investigate perhaps 5. What then? More police, detectives (=more money for police infrastructure) but atleast there will be hard data to show the extent to which the departments are understaffed.

What's important is we find a way to atleast facilitate the first step in a rape/molestation case without any hindrance. I see this as a short-term goal (but maybe I am naive and this might be a big hurdle to cross).

As has been mentioned, the police station accepting a complaint is almost a conflict of interest here- it is extra work for an already over-worked and under-staffed office. IF they can avoid it, they would (I had heard this for the Nithari children murder case near Delhi). Is there a way for a non-police organization to register complaints? Just asking the question. Are there any women's organizations (NGOs or otherwise) who can atleast keep track of the number of complaints (and ensure that those complaints are not lost or tossed aside)?

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 31 Dec 2012 06:56

SriKumar wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:A hel*** of a lot can be done by just making it simpler to make an FIR. If you try to report something in the police station, you are likely to be subject to harasment from the police. No police station wants to have a bad record, hence they make it near impossible to make a complain. Just try...
At least one will start to get some real statistics and the local goons life will become at least a bit harder.
Totally agree. We have to start with something simple and tangible (much like Sanku suggested in an earlier post).

There have to be some short term steps that we must try and initiate. By definition, long-term steps and strategies are less like to happen, and given the bureaucratic inertia and the history of the judicial system, it may never happen. (I will be very happy if the strategies like 'changing cultural mindset' and suchlike actually happen. These are fundamental changes and will take time, years/decades- if it ever gets started).

I am totally with the above suggestion for the following reason: lodging a rape complaint is CURRENTLY law. No new law has to be passed. If there is a way to ensure that every woman who has a rape complaint atleast gets entered into a system, that's a huge win right there. We'll have statistics as to how many cases are (and are not) being worked on. Naysayers might say 'what's the point of just accepting rape complaints, is prosecuting the case not just as important'. I completely agree. The steps are: make it possible for any woman wanting to register a complaint to do so easily. This is a necessary first step before any rape investigation can take place. Once complaints can be entered easily, I expect there to be tsunami of complaints, and then we are stuck at step 2 where there are a 100 cases and resources to investigate perhaps 5. What then? More police, detectives (=more money for police infrastructure) but atleast there will be hard data to show the extent to which the departments are understaffed.

What's important is we find a way to atleast facilitate the first step in a rape/molestation case without any hindrance. I see this as a short-term goal (but maybe I am naive and this might be a big hurdle to cross).

As has been mentioned, the police station accepting a complaint is almost a conflict of interest here- it is extra work for an already over-worked and under-staffed office. IF they can avoid it, they would (I had heard this for the Nithari children murder case near Delhi). Is there a way for a non-police organization to register complaints? Just asking the question. Are there any women's organizations (NGOs or otherwise) who can atleast keep track of the number of complaints (and ensure that those complaints are not lost or tossed aside)?

If the politicians wanted, a lot could have been done. But the way things work between the politicians, criminals and police. You scratch my back and I will yours. CM has full control over the police. But the Politicians also need the criminals help to win the elections. The problem is further complicated by the fact that politicians need to accept corrupt practices, so that they can finance and make a return on the huge investment of winning an election.

I was actually thinking of setting up a website. wanted to make a separate thread for each district. People can then post (anonymous, if desired) any corrupt practice they encounter. This way at least the problems will become visual and come out in the open. The politicians will be subject to constant activism from the local people.

deWalker · Post by **deWalker** » 31 Dec 2012 07:28

Let me share a personal anecdote. In May, me and my family (wife + 13-month daughter) visited HYD for my cousin's wedding. We were staying at cousin's house, in Sainikpuri / Vayupuri. As you can make out from the locality name, 95% of the houses are ex-Army or ex-Air Force officers, our neighbors were retd. Air Commodores, Colonels etc. I'm betting every 2nd house has a service weapon inside - this isn't some shady corner of Dharavi or Kamathipura.

So at 7 PM, once it cools down a bit, and it's still twilight, wife and I decide to go for a walk, with daughter in stroller. No doubt we looked pucca NRI, FWIW. As we're walking one of the cross-roads, fairly quiet street, I remember this one motorcycle dude riding past us a couple of times. I just figured it was him getting his bike-riding practice. Most times I was between my wife (who's pushing the baby stroller) and the street, but the ONE time we switched places, this SAME guy drives his bike right by us, and grabs my wife's breast. Call me a wimp, but I couldn't get in more than a "madarc**d" before he's gone. After getting my screaming wife and daughter home, myself and the driver went out around the streets in the car (along with hockey stick) looking for the SOB, but no luck - he's long gone to his rathole with a story to tell his friends.

In this thread, I see a lot of discussion around "back-end" solutions (better policing, stronger laws etc); but what concerns me is the "front-end" solution - attitudes, accommodation, space. This isn't the society most of us grew up in (I'm myself in my early 40's, grew up in Garodia Nagar / Ghatkopar (E) in Bombay). In spite of our dharmic ethos, we are now a society where a lot of men (but not all) are extremely sexually frustrated - count me in that list if you will. One aspect is our attitude in separating the sexes around puberty - my 6th grade class in SVHS Sindhi Society was coed, but starting in 7th we had boys-only and girls-only classes. The lack of familiarity breeds unhealthy attitudes. Another is the raw disparity between male-female interactions in real life vs. what we see on dominant pop culture. Even my 28-yr old cousin and SIL (who grew up in HYD and Jaipur/Bikaner respectively) tell me that they have experienced regular (not frequent) groping in unprotected situations.

All this is just middle-class India. If you read Kristoff and other desi NGOs, the scale is much worse in rural India, where sex slavery is the engine that feeds both Indian and Middle-Eastern brothels.

Diwakar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Dec 2012 08:02

It is time people don't want get out without hockey sticks and women without tasers and pepper sprays. Make it a commercial on national TV via NGOs. Given a chance, whack the criminal on the prowl.

I am going to propagate this.. you all too. Perhaps, we could think of advanced batons.

Cost: 45 USD

or

for purses - $10

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2012 10:19

Sorry to hear about that Diwakar. Please my heartfelt sympathies on the incident.

saiK, Are there plans for that gizmo for people to make in India?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 11:06

Many outraged groups demanding mandatory Death for Rapists may consider these incidents.

Death penalty for rapists is still a matter of debate, with women's groups advocating that it will merely result in the murder of the victims. But in Kolkata's backyard, rape and murder have apparently started going hand-in-hand. And for men, escorting women at night appears increasingly perilous.

Late on Saturday night in Barasat, 20 km from Kolkata, a 45-year-old woman and her husband were waylaid by six men as they were returning home from a brick kiln where they worked. After raping the woman, they bludgeoned her to death. The man was forced to drink acid. He is battling for life at Kolkata's RG Kar Medical College and Hospital. "His liver and kidneys have been damaged but his condition is stable," said Dr Siddhartha Neyogi, deputy superintendent of the hospital.

On Sunday morning, the body of a 25-year old woman was found on the banks of river Hooghly at Diamond Harbour on the southern fringes of Kolkata. "She was gangraped and murdered," said the woman's brother.

Source HT.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 11:22

but what concerns me is the "front-end" solution - attitudes, accommodation, space. This isn't the society most of us grew up in (I'm myself in my early 40's, grew up in Garodia Nagar / Ghatkopar (E) in Bombay). In spite of our dharmic ethos, we are now a society where a lot of men (but not all) are extremely sexually frustrated - count me in that list if you will. One aspect is our attitude in separating the sexes around puberty - my 6th grade class in SVHS Sindhi Society was coed, but starting in 7th we had boys-only and girls-only classes. The lack of familiarity breeds unhealthy attitudes. Another is the raw disparity between male-female interactions in real life vs. what we see on dominant pop culture. Even my 28-yr old cousin and SIL (who grew up in HYD and Jaipur/Bikaner respectively) tell me that they have experienced regular (not frequent) groping in unprotected situations.

DeWalker: I and others have been stressing on this part quite consistently. I mentioned also the role of Big B, Devanand, Dharmendra and Bollywood Icons in stalking and harassment of Women. Something that i have mentioned since over a week ago. Swami Aiyer airs exactly the same Point of View in his blog..

Films Sanctify stalking and Harassment of Women

Imagine now tens of millions of youth that have been segregated from the opposite sex, drinking behind a daru theka in a group, then spilling onto the streets. Lewdness, harassment is par on the course as Dharmendra ji, Bacchan Ji, Devanand Ji, Aamir of Satyameva fame have been propagating and taking money for all these decades. They deserve also to be shamed for iconizing that such behaviour works in winning over women. Lets not let that aspect simmer and be brushed under the carpet.

We need solutions from many fronts. Front (Police/ Judiciary), Social, Analytics. Unfortunately Rape statistics are skewed in India, many cases not reported. Molestation/ lewdness is not some rural phenomenon, it's equally an urban one too. So analysing and working plainly on data available will lead to bureacratic number crunchers taking front seat. If we go by Stats alone as they exist, women are safer in India than in the West. But are they? Is this all a hype. lets answer that truthfully to ourselves.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2012 11:28

Do these look like they will deliver a solution?

Sushupti wrote:

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 11:41

Another pointer why statistics may not give us good analytics as of today is this report in TOI:

The Indian ISI now functions under the Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation, which disgorges small amounts of data about national benchmarks, targets, achievements etc. If you dig though the ministry's basic, no-frills website, you can unearth such gems as the state-wise area and production of flowers, foreign tourist arrivals in India from top 15 countries, and the number and value of coins minted in the country. But the data is spotty, often old or outdated, and some numbers are difficult to unearth. Under the head of crime, for instance, there was no easy way to spot statistics relating to rape and its prosecution.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ber-theory

So i guess number crunching bureacrats telling us rapes are in control will not be a good enough reason to satiate the need to bring figures down and make people feel safer. I will give an analogy here and that is of school. I know the toppers in my class throughout would not be satisfied with a 85% rating, yet those with lower aims would be thrilled with a 75%. The internalized dissatisfaction with the 85% caused them to work harder and redefine their approach to move consistently in the 90% range. That is why statistical comparisons and data may not hold keys to making people in our societies feel safer. Many Indians realize that we can lead much safer lives than we do. In these pages many of us have certainly touched upon a lot of issues that matter. We have to crystallize them better. Short term/ longer term. Judicial, Police, Social, Data collection and analytics in better ways than present. There is certainly more work to be done than sit upon present data and rely on number crunchers to tell us what is wrong.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2012 11:47

harbans, National Crime Bureau is the place to look.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 11:48

Some of the things that many of us have been pointing out here for days have started coming out in the mainstream media..here's another:

In the absence of any direct interactions with girls, boys find other ways of fulfilling their curiosity. They turn to the net, where ***** is the hottest selling subject. Anyone who has seen ***** on the net knows that it’s a fake, make-believe world where every woman is “available” and every man is the ultimate stud. For a young man who has not learnt to even say Hi to a girl, this is too much. He starts to fantasize about women; and dreams of having his time with the women. In short, the release only happens in an unnatural way. Lack of interactions also makes these men think weird things about the women. They think of women more as mere “bodies”, rather than as living, breathing and thinking humans. The women in the meanwhile know no better. They are taught to resist the overtures of men, be coy, cover themselves up, and when assaulted, keep mute, lest society thinks it was they who behaved inappropriately. Our society has created artificial barriers between men an women when none were designed by god to exist.

Has anyone noticed how men who regularly interact with women have a much more civilized attitude towards them? The crowds at Jantar Mantar and India Gate are mixed crowds. And by and large, their conduct with each other has been exemplary. In contrast, during the Anna struggle, the crowds were mostly males, and there were stories of the red light areas around Ram Lila grounds doing brisk business during the days of the protests. It’s obvious really why this happens.

Illiberal Society behind Crime against Women

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2012 11:51

All this is nice. I see a lot of crocodile tears from Bollywood stars and TOI that peddles near naked images on all its pages!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 11:56

harbans, National Crime Bureau is the place to look.

Ramana Ji, yes. But one key thing from stats posted here earlier is India has much lower rape and sexual assault figures than the West. However the perception is India is a much more unsafe society for women. So how much of that data can we really rely to give us solutions is a big question. We have already seen Delhi tops the rape stats in cities. I posted Gurgaon rape stats and showed very ironical yes, but Gurgaon is a much safer place for women than Delhi. I linked it up to the 'notorious' pubs in Gurgaon, they seem to me to be success stories not failures for example. Yet perceptions do matter. For the same statistics we may get a set of people perfectly satisfied and willing to do nothing more than they have, another set that will do marginally more, and yet another cynical set that wants to do vastly more. On top of this the accuracy of reporting is very much suspect in rape and molestation cases for sure. In other words we have to act hard despite whatever the stats tell us.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 14:55

The statistics would be useful to see how different regions compare on the basis of crime against women - the underlying assumption being the under-reporting is pretty much at the same level across Indian regions.

Frankly without data - there is not really much to meaningfully analyze. Data would at least provide a comparative snapshot across Indian states and cities, identify weak spots and enable the tracking of trends / underlying cultural causes.

I beleive this is the latest GOI crime statistics across the country: Crime in India. Look for the section on 'Crime against Women'.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 31 Dec 2012 14:57

BTW Lt. Gen. Panag @rwac48 has this #StandUp hashtag asking for volunteers from different part of the country who are willing to assist in local case of women abuse.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 15:44

+1 on the FIR bit.
The police are reluctant to file FIR's because so much junk cases are filed by people. My cousin who is DCP says that 80%-90% of FIR's are false. About half have to do with vendetta's over property disputes. Police have a hard time sorting out the genuine from the fake. My dad is friends with the local thana and when he took over some christmas cake was informed that at least 3 attempts were made to file an FIR against him and my mom over the past years! One because my mom chased away some kids stealing flowers with a stick! My dad and his brother are in a property dispute with some relatives and every 3 months another false FIR is filed against them.

Society uses FIR's and the police as its personal vendetta machine. Then we wonder why the FIR process does not work. There has got to be a way to make society behave.Maybe charge them for each FIR.
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Ramana,

You are falling for the if women are naked on a newspaper men are intoxicated by the 'uncovered meat' argument. Semi-erotic images and treatment of women are two separate things. Now if they advocate bad behavior towards women that is another matter.

And yes the Big B style mistreatment of women was a horrible idea but it only reinforced attitudes that already prevailed. Big B was popular because he told what men want to hear. No one wanted to follow Raj Kapoor style chivalry with box office gangbusters after all.
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I don't buy these, society has deteriorated, arguments entirely. The truth was earlier society was completely segregated. The elites in their enclaves and the riff-raff floating around in the villages. Now things are getting more integrated and what always happened in rural India is starting to show up on city streets.

Lets take one other statistic. Dowry deaths. All the way from independence this statistic has been sky high in rural India. If you talk to your grand parents in small tows, they will tell you literally dozens of cases they remember over the years. Or female infanticide, way back in the 50's TN had a horrible bout of girl babies abandoned in trash heaps. Back then the place for all women was behind the 4 walls all the time.

If you look at old photo's of city streets you will notice that not a single woman is visible in most photos. They are strikingly all male photo's. The difference now is that women are tired of living within the 4 walls and demand to walk on the street when they feel like it, esp. independently. They depend on society to protect them when they do this and society is not yet ready to protect them.