China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Dec 2012 11:59

shiv wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Ravi_G ji, This would mean only one thing. J-20 is a failure. If PRC cannot produce a war fighting bomber which is cheaper than TU-22(complete lifecycle costs adjusted for inflation) and in time, the program has failed. J-20 will be of very limited utility. Maybe Chinese posters can enlighten us on the various challenges being faced in J-20 program
Without reaching any conclusion about J-20 there is another way of looking at the whole issue.

In the first place there is the Chinese government that deliberately leaks information via the internet in blogs and fora -via photoraphs, Typically it has been blurred photos showing a new aircraft in the distance with a foreground of grass/bushes/fence giving the (obviously fake) impression of an eager enthusiast who has clicked the image.

Why would the Chinese government do that? They are revealing some things and are hiding some things and I think these images are as much to titillate the Chinese within China as much as to provoke speculation, awe and admiration abroad. In other words there is a propaganda requirement that is being met. January 2013 will be 1 year since we saw the first flight news of J-20. The Chinese have succeeded in instilling the meme in popular media that the J-20 is a "heavy, stealthy combat aircraft". If you look at the information they have released - you find that the Chinese have officially never even called it a combat aircraft other than the "J" designation. The speculation about its role has always been in the media. No information has been released about its role or specs. And in the span of this one year they have simply released pics of the so called J-31. At first it was a cleverly designed "accident" in which the J-31 was seen sitting cockeyed on a truck in a highway. And now it appears in public pics. Again the Chinese have said nothing. It is the media that are speculating that the J-20 and J-31 will perform a combat tango like F-22 and F-35 (see the strange similarity in numeric designation almost 22 and almost 35? )

The Chinese have released no information at all. For all we know the programs may be experimental and not destined to be full fledged combat aircraft. In this day and age it is not east to get a "successful" combat aircraft. You have to make and a/c and then make it a success. It you want to send a reall military message then you should have the J-20 showing up at Zhuhai and later 4 J-20s overflying disputed islands. That is a much better indicator of role and intent. Simply releasing blury pics is more to provoke speculation and intrigue and cause unease among foes and cheer and joy among the Han masses about the gleat and grolious Communist regime.

Which Tu-22 line are the Chinese buying? There were two versions. One was the earlier fixed wing tail mounted twin engine Tu 22. The later one was fuselage engine swing wing. The earlier one is hopelessly obsolete, The latter one is just obsolete. The Tu-22 production line is going cheap. Why would you sell it cheap? It's cheap because its not worth much. Apart from jigs etc another possibility is that he Chinese actually want to export the damn thing to Pakistan, Somalia and Libya. But I think that is unlikely, but it remains a possibility. The swing wing stuff is probably a maintenance nightmare, but imagine the unease the Chinese will cause by selling 8 to Pakistan, 4 to NoKo etc. I don't think the Chinese are stupid enough to try and use these junk buckets for their own air force.

Heh ..'choli ke peeche kya he' .. what is not so revealed is more interesting than one fully revealed

we are only human

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 29 Dec 2012 12:12

Shiv ji, there is no doubt that J-20 is a long way away if ever it is going to come. All I was trying to say was that the Chinese bomber force cannot be treated as a strategically fungible board-piece. Fungible for J-20s etc. We Indians have the benefit of that fungibility w.r.t. our Su-30s because ours is not a pond filled with piranhas, baracudas, sharks and orcas. Ours is an ocean with only US having any operational capability in it. But the Chinese do not have this luxury. If and when J-20 comes it will have its hand full with trying to control the airspace over the Nine dashed line.

Also Chinese have worked with outdated bomber ideas for a very long time now and they are relying mostly on varying kinds of cruise missiles. In fact victor ji does have some point that these outdated bombers can also be used against India with stand off weaponery. But I doubt if our sea based assets can be targeted using this method. The best Chinese can do is use this package against our sensors and command & control infra nearer to the border and that too is actually not required considering they have enough missles to do that sort of job.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Dec 2012 12:17

Victor wrote:long-range supersonic bomber can sneak up from outside that envelope at low level and attack with minimal warning using standoff missiles.

How can one sneak up from long range?What are LRSAM or CAP with MAR for?

How does one guide standoff missiles? Datalinks can be jammed. GPS signals correcting INS drift can be jammed.

B52/Tu22/M has been more destructive for the operator than the enemy in any contested airspace. Most of their successes have been in uncontested airspaces. Maneuverability, not speed, matters. That is why B52’s role has been taken over by F-15E & F/A-18F while Tu-22M’s role has been taken over by Su-30/34.

Its really very good news that the Chinese are buying the Tu-22 burning money that could be invested elsewhere.

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Dec 2012 14:00

We need to start giving it BR call signs. To indicate their lack of abilities and uselessness.

I have already called J-20 the Fatbox. So here we go

J-20 => FatBox

J-31 => Shortleg

Y-20 => FatEgg

J-20 is a fat box visible from several hundered miles away. J-31 with its twin engines will have short legs. Rest about J-31 I am not going to tell you. Y-20 is more like an eggcrate, but let us be charitable and lest I be called arrogant by fellow desis - giving it a better name - FatEgg.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 29 Dec 2012 21:27

Boreas wrote

You two can blow each other in private, spare this public dry humping.

Share id's and mail each other blurred pics of PLA flag flying over white house.. and jerk off all night seeing that.

wah wah eloquent fresh blood.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 30 Dec 2012 07:42

tsarkar wrote:How can one sneak up from long range?What are LRSAM or CAP with MAR for?

The dotted line is the perimeter of our best-case radar coverage--we can see a max of 400-500km beyond our borders and coastlines with Greenpine/Phalcon. Fighter (CAP) radar radius is only 100km appx.

Starting from outside this radar coverage, any jet can sneak up undetected upto the perimeter. From there, smaller jets like the F-16 which cannot carry long-range missiles will have to fly right up to the target, setting off the alarm and activating air defenses. But a bigger jet like the Tu-22 can release a couple of long-range, low-flying missiles (red lines) and turn back just before penetrating the radar screen, remaining undetected (blue lines). Stopping these missiles would be difficult even if detected, the chief reason being lack of time. In the opening hours of a war, this can be devastating, specially if the Chinese initiate hostilities as they most likely will.

The Tu-22s will likely be used only with long-range standoff missiles for surprise because they will be sitting ducks if caught trying to use short-range missiles or bombs within range of Indian fighters or missile defenses. We are hellbent on making our Sukhois Brahmos-capable for good reason. Well, the Tu-22s are the same thing except with thrice the range and payload.

The situation is worse for Kargil/Siachen, Northeast and Andamans because the TU-22s can use Tibet and Myanmar airspace to achieve total surprise.

We need 24/7 monitoring of the northern Arabian Sea covering all of the paki coastline and as much of the Tibet and Myanmar airspace as we can. The 5 or 6 AWACS we seem to be planning will not be enough even for the Andamans and Kargil/Siachen theaters as only 3 or 4 will be airborne at any time. We need a dozen AWACS with another 2 dozen Embraer AEW&Cs covering the coastline, Indo-pak and BD borders and the area south of Sri Lanka. Instead of messing around with additional Il-76 based Phalcons with their inherrent cost, delay and complications, we should just buy the readymade Gulfstream 550 based Phalcons off the shelf cheaper and quicker as they are as good as the bigger jets range wise.

I may have missed something and am open to correction so if you think differently, please give your reasons.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2012 10:08

Victor wrote: The Tu-22s will likely be used only with long-range standoff missiles

Which Tu 22s?
What missiles?

Without some speculation about the above two questions, preparing to face a threat is pointless.

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Dec 2012 15:15

Victor wrote:I may have missed something and am open to correction so if you think differently, please give your reasons.

Why go all the way to use Tu-22, just hide behind a Boeing 787 or Airbus 340 from say "paki-chaki airlines" and also use part of the plane as refueller - just drop out from behind the radar signature of the big plane and drop the crooze missile and go back. Comes with an advantage of plausible deniability as well!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Dec 2012 18:47

its already been pointed that that the enormous range of these business jets is only with a small passenger and light bag payload. add in a heavy AESA radar, addl fuel tanks, addl generators for power and some racks of equipment need to process and prepare the signals for satellite transmission and true picture will emerge.

for israel/singapore/Soko type nations it is ok and fine.

Selamat Pagi · Post by **Selamat Pagi** » 30 Dec 2012 22:13

Don wrote:I also find the UAV advances very intriguing, Thanks for the link.

The race for sheath UAV.

Media said China's new UAV off the production line or the upcoming first flight.
Currently, to achieve a stealth UAV applications and real country, only one, namely the United States. Stealth UAV maiden flight of the two countries: the United States and France. The three countries: China, the United States and France have created a prototype. Stealth UAV development plan exists 6: China, the United States, France, Britain, Russia and India. Four: Sweden, Italy, Israel and Iran, stealthy unmanned aircraft research. The stealth UAV club apparently is a higher threshold "technology by Congress. (Draw: Li Xin)

This century battle on the future battlefield aircraft, the major aviation technology powers invested a lot of manpower, material and financial resources, have only one goal, and that is in this the weapons technology revolution led by stealth UAV be "kicked out".

No matter how much criticism and controversy, and the sky of the future will belong to these steel soldiers, manned and unmanned aerial vehicles mixed formation, the trend of future space Ground Integrated Combat Joint Strike upcoming show in front of our friends, for progress in China bravo! And be prepared for the fierce competition in the future! (Global network of military the Commentator Raehse)

Thick plot to thick hair. Once the subject started accumulation usually turned into a blazing lava spewing out. Just a few years, ROCKETS team speed once again focused attention, a number of applications results have emerged:

UAV freshly baked a special performance with independent intellectual property rights, with automatic tracking, the reconnaissance function UAV also emerged, verify that the upcoming first flight of the prototype unmanned combat key technologies ...
The creation of the unmanned aircraft combat systems and technology disciplines, has established China's first unmanned aerial vehicle combat systems and technology disciplines master's and doctoral point;

Theoretical system of unmanned intelligent attack system and combat simulation laboratory have been set up, unmanned combat aircraft precision strike technology monographs officially published ...

The eagle fly, 剑指 blue sky. Established UAV research and development project to have begun to taste victories to the excellent situation now flourishing, the ROCKETS and his team to ensure that the Air Force major model development and equipment process played a major role once again written a brilliant achievement. The dawn of a new revolution in military affairs, Professor Huang Changjiang led his team are a brand-new field climbing higher and farther.

Unmanned attack aircraft - the needs of the times
November 3, 2001, the war in Afghanistan, the U.S. military's RQ-1B UAV killed someone with the F-15E, then al-Qaeda number two man Al Atef create armed unmanned machine the first record in the history of warfare. February 15, 2010, in Pakistan and Afghanistan at the junction of the North Waziristan tribal region, the East Turkistan terrorist organization leader Abdul Haq Thiel Keith Tenney was the U.S. military's MQ-9 UAV fried dead.
From the testing machine to a dedicated unmanned attack aircraft
Armed drones is a very rapid development in the past decade, the RQ-1B, the war in Afghanistan in 2001, is actually just testing machine, traditional reconnaissance UAV simple installation of weapons, and now the MQ- 9 is dedicated armed UAV, developed on the basis of the RQ-1B and targeted improvement in many ways to improve operational performance. Armed drones is a good performance in the operational environment in Afghanistan and Iraq, and will never cause any casualties, the U.S. military is speeding up procurement armed UAV and its ground control station, UAV professional training essential control personnel, to improve the efficiency and operational effectiveness of the use of armed drones, even at the cost of the part of the pilot diverted, remote control UAV ground control station.
The active duty UAVs also can not be replaced by someone
However, MQ-9 this big endurance UAV for the war on terror, and only in the case of the full protection of air supremacy in the theater over the patrol standby does not have the ability to penetrate each other's air defense system, it is also impossible to replace the combat aircraft to become the main force of the large-scale combat. However, this situation is being tended to change in this regard, the U.S. Navy before walking in the United States Air Force, which is currently stepping up the Navy's unmanned combat aircraft "(UCAV-N) project, while Northrop - Grumman the X-47B Pegasus demonstrator demonstrator of the project.
X-47B can automatically take off and land on aircraft carrier
X-47B has a very advanced features, not only flight performance, a substantial increase in combat load, combat radius is quite large, but also designed to take full account of stealth, the most critical is the auto-off and landing on a carrier, and with independent air refueling capacity. X-47B can be seen as an important milestone in the U.S. armed UAV development, it will make its maiden flight later this year, and plans to take-off and landing demonstration program on the aircraft carrier in 2011. Although the X-47B is also somewhat delayed, but the Navy still has high expectations of them, hope UCAV-N official service in 2018. Released in February this year, the U.S. Department of Defense Quadrennial Defense Review Report, reiterated the commitment of UAVs continue to invest. (This paragraph, information is selected from the group consisting of NetEase military would like to acknowledge)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Dec 2012 23:48

Selamat Pagi wrote:
Don wrote:I also find the UAV advances very intriguing, Thanks for the link.
The race for sheath UAV.

Cut-paste China at best.

What are they going to do after they run out of stole information?

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 31 Dec 2012 00:18

Salam at Paki

Wonderful pictures there of UAV

What is missing however is the Indian UAV called Langoti, I'm told it is miles ahead and can carry more payload than the Chinese ones, that is even after taking into account increase in specifications due to timely consumption of tiger dong soup

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2012 06:00

BAe Taranis is missing from that mine is bigger UAV list. Also the European nEuron.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2012 06:19

NRao wrote:
Don wrote: http://my.news.yahoo.com/japans-incomin ... 00981.html

Japan's incoming PM pledges to mend ties with China

By Kyoko Hasegawa | AFP News – 4 hours ago

Japan's incoming premier on Saturday pledged to seek a thaw in ties with China after a report said he will send a special envoy on a fence-mending mission to Beijing.

Ties between Japan and China have become increasingly strained over a disputed island chain -- the Tokyo-controlled Senkakus, which Beijing calls the Diaoyus -- with neither side willing to budge after months of bitter wrangling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20842840 (Dec 26, 2011):

The grandson of a former prime minister and son of an ex-foreign minister, Mr Abe, 58, has pledged to take a tough line in a territorial row with China.

China has urged the new government to take "practical steps" to deal with the dispute over islands in the East China Sea.

Mr Abe has also called for Japan's pacifist constitution to be revised and patriotic sentiment nurtured.

I sleep well.

How is it they have so much fun without us? Mending ties:

Japan 'detains Chinese fishing boat'

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2012 07:54

Hope for Indo-Japanese ties under Abe

In that context, Abe sees the need for a strategic partnership with the US which he is keen to extend to India and Australia as a counterpoise to China’s hegemonistic designs. With India itself embroiled in a territorial dispute with China over Arunachal Pradesh and some other areas, a strategic alliance will ensure that New Delhi is not isolated in the event of a Chinese attempt to browbeat her. A strategic partnership with India is not only in the interest of both the countries but also for the peace and prosperity of the region.

Addressing the Indian Parliament in 2007, Abe had carefully articulated that the Indian and Pacific countries were seamlessly connected and that ‘when we build a community in Asia, maritime democracies should lead the pack’.

Selamat Pagi · Post by **Selamat Pagi** » 31 Dec 2012 08:21

shiv wrote:BAe Taranis is missing from that mine is bigger UAV list. Also the European nEuron.

BAe Taranis is under UK and the Dassault Neuron is under France.

There are so many many more Chinese sheath and non-sheath UAV.
The dark Sword.

Soar Dragon

CH-3

Sky crossbow

Harrier III

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 31 Dec 2012 08:31

Another one, a little grainy but it is a Chinese camera

Selamat Pagi · Post by **Selamat Pagi** » 31 Dec 2012 09:22

Chinese Vertically launched UAV

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Dec 2012 09:46

^^Man they are really good at making cheap crappy toys.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 31 Dec 2012 09:48

LoL I think I can buy most of these at Toys'r'us.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Dec 2012 13:18

what do you expect, they even did that with Pulsar, they couldnt event get a proper name and named it gulsar

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Dec 2012 14:03

Selamat Pagi wrote: There are so many many more Chinese sheath and non-sheath UAV.
The dark Sword.

Liar.

The dark sore pictured above is a 3D creation by Nick Kaloterakis for Popular Mechanics. Not a real UAV. I admit it is stealthy because it does not exist. This is why Chinese claims are so funny. You guys are always bluffing or getting Pakis to bluff for you. I think this is an overdose of Sun Tzu. In India it is called Sun Tzutiyapanti. Lets have the truth. Not the tzooth.

Nick Kaloterakis

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 31 Dec 2012 16:29

apart from the second pic everything is looks like a concept model.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Dec 2012 16:34

When China is challenged they always back down:

China says 'board and search' sea rules limited to Hainan coast

Stating the obvious.

India needs to push her more on this bogus China Sea stuff.

kish · Post by **kish** » 31 Dec 2012 17:18

saravana wrote:Another one, a little grainy but it is a Chinese camera

That chinese UAV is invisible even to naked eye. Amazing stealth features.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 31 Dec 2012 18:34

Next we would see an all-wood craft which will be stealth across all the bands

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 31 Dec 2012 19:41

actually thats the video as seen from the UAV....

maybe they forgot to plugin the camera

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 01 Jan 2013 02:16

Chinese Pterodactyl UAV

disha · Post by **disha** » 01 Jan 2013 04:01

ashi wrote:Chinese Pterodactyl UAV

^^ FatDino

It is indeed a dinosaur!

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 01 Jan 2013 04:16

shiv wrote:
Victor wrote: The Tu-22s will likely be used only with long-range standoff missiles
Which Tu 22s?
What missiles?

Without some speculation about the above two questions, preparing to face a threat is pointless.

Couldn't resist the Tu22 thread. I agree with Shiv - the Tu 22 to put it mildly is antiquated. While it has true supersonic bomber performance, it was built for an era that had far fewer electronic countermeasures or sophistication of detection. This is not a plane that can burn its way through air defenses by speed. At best it is a standoff weapons platform.

Now coming to its utility as a stand off platform, looking at the radar coverage net posted and the approach vector of the incoming bogie, you are looking at a long range shot at most likely a fixed target, with the claim being that there is not enough time for reaction for the target. I find this a little improbable because the use of such a platform is limited compared to a missile strike, which would achieve the same result with greater probability of success and lower risk of operating at the limits of a standoff weapon. Why would someone use a Tu22M in today's world when it is not fast enough to achieve what a missile does reliably with no risk. ABM systems typically can react automatically - they do so by trajectory and approach vector and I am assuming - maybe naively - but maybe not - that military targets around Bombay have relatively decent ABM coverage coming to them.

Now, if we were discussing the sale of the Tu - 160 aircraft, that would be a rather different result. That aircraft is far more potent in the role of shoot and scoot that you are envisioning than the backfire, which doesn't have either the speed or the range to compare.

Thoughts?

Cheerios
Aharam

Don · Post by **Don** » 01 Jan 2013 06:15

shiv wrote:
Selamat Pagi wrote: There are so many many more Chinese sheath and non-sheath UAV.
The dark Sword.

Liar.

The dark sore pictured above is a 3D creation by Nick Kaloterakis for Popular Mechanics. Not a real UAV. I admit it is stealthy because it does not exist. This is why Chinese claims are so funny. You guys are always bluffing or getting Pakis to bluff for you. I think this is an overdose of Sun Tzu. In India it is called Sun Tzutiyapanti. Lets have the truth. Not the tzooth.

Nick Kaloterakis

Actually the dark sword was first displayed at Zhuhai air show a few years back. It can be purchased at the nearest toys R us but I think you get better discount at Ebay.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 01 Jan 2013 06:22

China's new ASW aircraft

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Jan 2013 06:53

disha wrote:
ashi wrote:Chinese Pterodactyl UAV
^^ FatDino

It is indeed a dinosaur!

LOL
Just Love their copies of the Predator and the Global Hawk.

Just shameless copies..... oh well
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery phrase.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 01 Jan 2013 13:02

@Ashi,
Photos of the same were posted on this forum earlier. Can you pleas post some additional info about it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jan 2013 14:02

their new ASW a/c does not look impressive. its based on the AN12 platform.

Selamat Pagi · Post by **Selamat Pagi** » 01 Jan 2013 21:50

adityadange wrote:apart from the second pic everything is looks like a concept model.

The 3rd picture is the CH-3 UAV is operational.
Video of the CH-3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSl72uNBFhU

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jan 2013 21:54

Singha wrote:their new ASW a/c does not look impressive. its based on the AN12 platform.

In fact I thought the new ASW has borrowed some stuff from the P-3 which Mr Wang Wei damaged while performing hara kiri and embracing shahadat, with the P 3 later landing in China. The old ASW was from An 12

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jan 2013 21:54

Singha wrote:their new ASW a/c does not look impressive. its based on the AN12 platform.

Is there anything that is NOT based on something? Outside of photoshoped stuff.

"Operational" = make it to youTube.com

Selamat Pagi · Post by **Selamat Pagi** » 01 Jan 2013 21:58

Video of the Sparrow Hark II UAV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcgXu-c2FMg

Don · Post by **Don** » 01 Jan 2013 21:59

NRao wrote:
Singha wrote:their new ASW a/c does not look impressive. its based on the AN12 platform.
Is there anything that is NOT based on something? Outside of photoshoped stuff.

"Operational" = make it to youTube.com

Damn Chinese they are good for nothing I tell you.

India could easily teach them a lesson if it wants........ It will take 2 days to take Lhasa and 5 days to take Beijing.