Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 01 Jan 2013 20:05

chaanakya wrote: We can create much better framework but as always we dont seem to be doing it. There is gap in theory and practice.

Chanakya ji, you actually hit the bulls eye. i.e if we can create a new framework for Policing, we can also revamp the political framework. I won't argue this one.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 01 Jan 2013 20:08

darshhan wrote: Sri Kumar, The silence or noise is created by media. Don't read too much into it. Until unless media gives space to judges how can one know what they are thinking.

Do you know of any blog then, that has a comment from a judge? That does not require the TV media's involvement.

My position is this: that the judges, being the primary owners of the judicial system, owe a response to the people of India. It has not come. If a CJ or someone else makes a statement or a press release, it will be carried in a newspaper even if it is in the 4th page. If even a retired judge had a comment to make, it would be deemed valuable enough to merit a mentioned either on the web or a newspaper. The lack of public comment cannot be ascribed to the media somehow not involving them. I think they are also keeping a low profile.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jan 2013 20:12

who is rukun advani?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 245949.ece

read it... though he rambles like many, but ends up with no real strategies for safe living.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 01 Jan 2013 20:16

Sri Kumar, One supreme court judge has indeed spoken.

Enough is enough says, Supreme Court judge on Delhi gangrape

In a rare public statement by a sitting Supreme Court judge, Justice Gyan Sudha Misra on Friday slammed the attack on dignity of women in the context of the recent Delhi gangrape.

Speaking exclusively to HT, she said an extraordinary situation demanded breaking the self-imposed code of silence for judges bound by their duties.

“Sitting judges seldom speak publicly. But enough is enough,” said Justice Misra, making it clear that she was expressing her personal opinion as a concerned citizen.

“Given the low credibility of the police in the country, it is time to fast-track the process of justice delivery, particularly in cases of heinous crimes against women,” said Justice Misra, who is among the only two women judges in the apex court.

“I have no hesitation saying that the Code for Criminal Procedure and the Indian Evidence Act need to be updated urgently. Let the outrage at the rape lead to a logical conclusion.”

According to her, the statements of witnesses recorded by police should be done in presence of a judicial officer.

“The lengthy procedure of recording their statements for the second time should be done away with,” she said.

She said criminal laws should be amended to avoid witnesses from being influenced or intimidated.

“No second chance should be given. There is no problem in retaining the rights of accused to cross-examine witnesses, but recording statements at multiple stages makes no sense,” Justice Misra said.

Asked how crimes against women could be stopped, Justice Misra said, “Law enforcing agencies need to show more will power. Debate on fast-track courts can continue, but I feel it is important to provide fast-track justice.”

She admitted that being a serving judge, she has limitations in airing her views publicly.

“I cannot speak freely, but in this case I felt that even at the cost of being criticised, I must make it clear that the system needs to be more alert, cautious. Please tackle crimes against women very seriously.”

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 01 Jan 2013 20:19

chaanakya wrote: It has observed that if witnesses are present all efforts should be made to record their statement in Examination in chief and cross examination and reexamination . It has put blame on Advocates who seek adjournment on false/frivolous pretext.

Adjournments were granted for the asking, quite often to suit the convenience of the advocate, the Bench said. “We make it clear that the legislature has frowned upon granting adjournments on that ground. At any rate, inconvenience of an advocate is not a ‘special reason’ for bypassing the mandate of Section 309 of the Cr.PC [power to court to adjourn proceedings].”

The bolded part is what gets me, the judge has a lot of power in running a trial, and sometimes an arbitrary amount of power. Now they turn around and blame the advocates. Who is in charge of the court if not the judges? If they really wanted to run the trial faster, why do they let the advocates delay it?

When this is all said and time, I think there should be a time limit to how long the 'average rape case' can run. If there isn't a time limit, then between the judges, advocates and police, the case will get delayed indefinitely. After all, it is in the interest of atleast one party in *every single trial* (i.e. the guilty side) to prolong the trial as much as possible. If the opportunity to prolong exists, it will, by definition, be used. And look where it has lead us. (This is not just for rape, but across the board. I am hoping that the current furore will permit a change in how rape cases are handled, and that can be extended to other areas. Without a shock, this system will not change. We know that. The Delhi rape/murder and, really, the protests following it, has provided that shock. ).

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 01 Jan 2013 20:27

darshhan wrote:Sri Kumar, One supreme court judge has indeed spoken.

Enough is enough says, Supreme Court judge on Delhi gangrape

In a rare public statement by a sitting Supreme Court judge, Justice Gyan Sudha Misra on Friday slammed the attack on dignity of women in the context of the recent Delhi gangrape.

Speaking exclusively to HT, she said an extraordinary situation demanded breaking the self-imposed code of silence for judges bound by their duties.

“Sitting judges seldom speak publicly. But enough is enough,” said Justice Misra, making it clear that she was expressing her personal opinion as a concerned citizen.

Asked how crimes against women could be stopped, Justice Misra said, “Law enforcing agencies need to show more will power. Debate on fast-track courts can continue, but I feel it is important to provide fast-track justice.”

She admitted that being a serving judge, she has limitations in airing her views publicly.

“I cannot speak freely, but in this case I felt that even at the cost of being criticised, I must make it clear that the system needs to be more alert, cautious. Please tackle crimes against women very seriously.”

Thanks for the link. It is very telling that it is a woman judge who decided to speak out and 'break the self-imposed code'. Congratulations to her for speaking out. Seems like she is the lone voice among judges (who dont have to speak but still did)? We need more judges like her.

A self-imposed code makes sense if something is being done behind-the-scenes to improve the system/situation. When you dont speak out and do nothing behind-the-scenes either, what it does is perpetuate the status quo. I would argue that the judges have a responsibility of fixing the system themselves, or publicly come out and let the nation know that why they cannot. Atleast now, it should happen. And really, retired judges are not bound any any code that serving judges are. They should have been all over this, and the lack of comment really says something.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Jan 2013 20:57

SriKumar wrote:
chaanakya wrote: It has observed that if witnesses are present all efforts should be made to record their statement in Examination in chief and cross examination and reexamination . It has put blame on Advocates who seek adjournment on false/frivolous pretext.

Adjournments were granted for the asking, quite often to suit the convenience of the advocate, the Bench said. “We make it clear that the legislature has frowned upon granting adjournments on that ground. At any rate, inconvenience of an advocate is not a ‘special reason’ for bypassing the mandate of Section 309 of the Cr.PC [power to court to adjourn proceedings].”
The bolded part is what gets me, the judge has a lot of power in running a trial, and sometimes an arbitrary amount of power. Now they turn around and blame the advocates. Who is in charge of the court if not the judges? If they really wanted to run the trial faster, why do they let the advocates delay it?

When this is all said and time, I think there should be a time limit to how long the 'average rape case' can run. If there isn't a time limit, then between the judges, advocates and police, the case will get delayed indefinitely. After all, it is in the interest of atleast one party in *every single trial* (i.e. the guilty side) to prolong the trial as much as possible. If the opportunity to prolong exists, it will, by definition, be used. And look where it has lead us. (This is not just for rape, but across the board. I am hoping that the current furore will permit a change in how rape cases are handled, and that can be extended to other areas. Without a shock, this system will not change. We know that. The Delhi rape/murder and, really, the protests following it, has provided that shock. ).

Advocates were on strike against certain amendments in CrPC which restricted adjournments and tried to speed up the case.
I know of few sessions Judicial Magistrates who were boycotted by Advocates as they were giving Judgements without giving adjournments. Some in TN and elsewhere.. The High Court Judges who are strict are not popular aming advocates and a lot of pressure put upon them. Without going into details I would say Advocates are the main reason for slide in Judicial system. I dont think Judges are to not to be blamed either. They are hand in gloves in the entire system Even one CJ was seen as tainted as he promoted his relatives. If you have right connections you know what..

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 01 Jan 2013 21:18

chaanakya wrote: Advocates were on strike against certain amendments in CrPC which restricted adjournments and tried to speed up the case.
I know of few sessions Judicial Magistrates who were boycotted by Advocates as they were giving Judgements without giving adjournments. Some in TN and elsewhere.. The High Court Judges who are strict are not popular aming advocates and a lot of pressure put upon them. Without going into details I would say Advocates are the main reason for slide in Judicial system. I dont think Judges are to not to be blamed either. They are hand in gloves in the entire system Even one CJ was seen as tainted as he promoted his relatives. If you have right connections you know what..

I think the bolded part makes eminent logical sense.....the longer the delays, the more money the advocate makes (on both sides of the trial). Plus, if I were an advocate, I would push towards a system that has provisions to delay a case ......just in case I have situation where I am defending a guilty party, which any advocate most certainly would, at some point in his career.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 01 Jan 2013 22:42

Holy Quran allows polygamy, not encourages it: court

A maulvi, accused of performing a girl's marriage forcibly with a married man, has been denied anticipatory bail by a Delhi court which said the Sharia Law allows polygamy but only under special circumstances.

The court denied the relief to Maulvi Mustafa Raja of Delhi dismissing his arguments that as per the Sharia Law, a man is allowed to keep four wives at a time.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/holy- ... /1052937/0

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 Jan 2013 23:27

Sushupti wrote:Holy Quran allows polygamy, not encourages it: court

A maulvi, accused of performing a girl's marriage forcibly with a married man, has been denied anticipatory bail by a Delhi court which said the Sharia Law allows polygamy but only under special circumstances.

The court denied the relief to Maulvi Mustafa Raja of Delhi dismissing his arguments that as per the Sharia Law, a man is allowed to keep four wives at a time.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/holy- ... /1052937/0

From above

According to the police, Raja had forcibly got the girl married with accused Nadeem Khan last year without her consent and also in her parents' absence

Is this case of inappropriate polygamy or abduction, forcible nikah and rape?

More like educated police, judiciary and pseudo-secular media trying to hide abduction and rape and make the crime look like inappropriate polygamy?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Jan 2013 23:45

In an earlier post i put different kinds of rape into categories. There are some additions of course as correctly pointed out, to add to the categories. However looking at many posts across on this issue, it seems these categories are also to be put into some grouping. It is each of these groupings that will have to be addressed in a holistic manner. Example:

(A) We have these high profile cave men type drag girl into car/ bus and rape or rape/murder type cases.
(B) We have these scheming lure/ kidnap and rape for months/ put into prostitution against will type.
(C) We have these Brother/ Uncle friendly near and dear type cases that take advantage of near ones.
(D) We have these taking advantage and hiding behind religious more kind of cases.
(E) We have this endemic mass lewdness, stalking, harassment, groping culture prevalent.
(F) Powerful Politician/ Boss type raping to establish dominance/ profile enhancement etc.

Amongst all type B,C, D are most dominant as we see from stats doled out (90+ % cases). 'A' ones are highly outrageous and get maximum media focus. All earlier categories can be included in either of these categories. Each of these categories requires a fundamentally different kind of tackling. Item E is an endemic and mostly does not make it into any kind of statistic.

Can these be classified in any other way? We have to be very clear on how to classify female harassment. We have to see what tools we can use to tackle each of these.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Jan 2013 23:56

Theo ji, wrt the earlier article New Statesman on the protests. I think there is a point and i was thinking on the same grounds. Where are the Ram Singh, Mukesh Singh types, fruit vendors, bati waala's in these kind of agitation? They just are not there. So can we infer that though there may be an exception to the rule, education and good pays are important to raise sensitivity? The protests after all are about sensitivity. Who are those who have felt sorry and outraged about this incident? Is this a small elite group, or has it mass percolated to bus drivers, fruit vendors, husbands of our maids, rural males, basti males? From the readings in the papers last few days it seems these protests have hardly registered on many. They simply are not aware that there is a protest going on. So logically we have 2 points:

1. Are these protests large enough to have an impact.
2. If only a small percent is expressing outrage, is it possible this small percent can carry that outrage to other units that have not had the benefit of being 'outraged' as of yet?

However when this group carries this 'outrage' to the other vaster section, solutions must be at hand, so encouraged volunteers from that group can monitor, tackle, report, continually sensitize male members in their community of influence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2013 00:02

Then there is the rape to establish dominance usually a powerful man rapes a woman less powerful to show her community its place. Usually has political undertones.

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harbans, The media might not cover it. It is in left Liberal interest to portray these protests are limited to urban middle class disenchanted youth.
We dont know the undercurrents.

Must be strong for INC to adopt Emergency like measures.

They will not have a Lok Sabha session before presenting bill lest they be toppled.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 00:12

harbans, The media might not cover it. It is in left Liberal interest to portray these protests are limited to urban middle class disenchanted youth.

Yes that is what Arundhati Roy types have hinted/ claimed that. However irrespective of that, what exactly is the truth here. We have seen outrage in whatever section/ class of the country is pretty much cross caste, ethnic, even the political or religious divide. So it's a very motley kind of crowd. Yet it does not mass involve some communities as mentioned before by NS and my earlier post. My contention is not to contest that claim. That is true to a large extent. There are many who are completely unaware there is an outrage on. How do we involve this larger section is the key to our problems.

Meanwhile i have added the powerful politician/ boss kinds aka Kanda/ Sanjay Singh of Matoo murder infame as you suggested to the category list.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jan 2013 00:52

harbans, Two more.
G) Male members of one community/group rape women of other community as an extension of F) We have seen this in rural Bihar, Andhra Pradesh (Karmachedu). Usually the rapists have massive political backinng.
H)Political parties to dethorne their ruling opponents encourage mass rapes. Eg. Rabindra Stadium in 1969(?). The idea is to create an atmosphere of no law and order and bring in Central Rule.
Bji, Might be too young to recall this incident. This is a version of creating riots with thier goons as needed.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 02 Jan 2013 01:06

well...nobody can accuse JJ of being slow and indecisive

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 261610.ece

Ms. Jayalalithaa said her government would set up fast track Mahila courts in each district to deal with sexual crimes against women, appoint women investigating officers and prosecutors to make the police probe and trial more gender-sensitive. Efforts would be made to expedite the trial by holding daily hearings.

The Goondas Act, a preventive detention law, would be amended to include sexual offenders under the Act’s purview.

Sexual offences against women would be considered grave crimes henceforth; investigation would be supervised by deputy superintendents of police. Women inspectors, or in their absence, women sub-inspectors would assist the enquiry. Superintendents of police and Deputy Inspectors General would conduct a monthly review of such cases.

IGs would submit a report in 15 days on the number of cases of sexual crime under investigation and pending in courts to the Additional Director General of Police (Law and Order).

The Centre would be requested to bring in amendments to introduce death penalty and chemical castration for sexual offenders and prevent them from getting bail till the trial is completed.

Is the Goonda's act a state law that TN can amend by itself and not depend on GoI?

Lets see if incidents reduce in TN from this point on.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 01:13

Ramana ji, many thanks for the additions. Latest Groupings on Assaults against Women in India:

(A) We have these high profile cave men type drag girl into car/ bus and rape or rape/murder type cases.
(B) We have these scheming lure/ kidnap and rape for months/ put into prostitution against will type.
(C) We have these Brother/ Uncle friendly near and dear type cases that take advantage of near ones.
(D) We have these taking advantage and hiding behind religious mores kind of cases.
(E) We have this endemic mass lewdness, stalking, harassment, groping culture prevalent.
(F) Powerful Politician/ Boss type raping to establish dominance/ profile enhancement etc.
(G) Male members of one community/group rape women of other community as an extension
(H) Political parties to dethorne their ruling opponents encourage mass rapes.

From what i gather the above would account for more than 99% sexual assault/ rape cases in India.
From available data we can/ can we conclude these:

Max Volume to min volume incidents: E, C, B, D, A, F, G, H. With E endemic, C 90 Plus percent, F,G,H around 5%.

From the list we can see that each requires different ways of tackling. Some fundamentals may be common, respect for women etc. That we have to grill anyways across the spectrum to blunt any offensive against future efforts or creating a conscience bank in the population where any call for rape will have a threshold of resistance.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 01:17

Excellent and heartening start by JJ. The Mahila courts in each district and other points that are being implemented were suggested here too, including documentation and review. So good to know that we are not too offtrack from 'being implemented on the ground solutions' as a result of this outrage.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 01:26

X Posting from Burkha:

Theo Ji, on Big B: The case MUST be being made. The core Bollywood style way of winning women through stalking and harassment as popularized by Big B and other Stars has to be shattered. They have to themselves come out and openly state that that is not the way. We iconized the wrong way to win women. That the right and truthful way is to be humble, respectful and accept with equanimity the No. Not that NO means YES lahori logic. A NO means No and we must be humble and respect that. Bollywood types don't do that. The Hero's are too egoistic. They are too proud. They MUST harass, stalk and then win the women. SO what is wrong if millions have been following the same on the streets of India? That is where Honey Singh is small fry and the Big Bs and Aamirs of Satyameva Jayate have to be hauled on media and made to stand guilty of crime against women in India.

The above will have a direct impact on (E) the mass groping, lewd culture prevalent.

If the Analogy to the Normal Accident Theory works and mass lewdness, groping, stalking reduce we may see a direct impact on some other categories, particularly (A). Certainly the kind of cases Theo Ji describes on his trip to India.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 03:03

A few points mentioned here by some are:

1. Police Reform: Making Police accountable to Citizenry over Political Masters.

This is hard to do in the practical realm. If anyone has solutions how to go about this part it would help to hear. While it might be dangerous to completely detach Police from the executive, an ideal police force is that which adequately caters to the Citizenry security concerns in synch with protection of the citizenry voted in executive. That is not happening.

2. Women in Police: This is one aspect that i have only recently read about. There have been women UN peacekeepers and they have done an excellent job. An example of an Indian contingent is here:

Deterrent to Rape: An Indian example abroad

Possibly 2 is easier and faster to accomplish than 1, which requires the political mentality to change, that in turn requires voters to make better choices too. 2 can also help curb violence against women in some really sensitive areas, where violence against women as described in D,E,F,G,H items.

Idea here is to see, which solutions will work best to curb which category/ grouping of violence against woman.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 02 Jan 2013 03:07

Making the country a safer place will not take place with new rules and laws. I think that ultimately the change will need to come from people. It requires a change in attitudes. In my opinion Indians are just too occupied with themselves and their own lives and do not spare enough thought for those around them. A general sweeping generalisation I admit but coupled with the truth that interfering in another persons business for the sake of a worthy cause can still prove to have disasterous personal consequences. I do not speak from experience but a long list of anecdotes. Please enlighten me if this is untrue as I have not been in India for years.

Personally if I see a female in trouble I have no issue with going to aid her without regard for personal loss or injury. It is just my personal integrity to my values. I'm sure most men feel this way but experienced by a system where taking care of yourself and your loved ones is usually a very exhaustive pursuit in itself helping a stranger is just too much too ask. Put your clothes over a dead body that corpse is now your responsibility so pay up. Worse, put your clothes on a corpse and you have committed the murder. Witnesses who saw you help a girl being groped/molested turn around and blame you. Less said about the police and the political/legal bureaucracies the better.

I think this issue is only a part of the wider issue of citizens choosing not to interfere in the problems of others due to a combination of apathy and fear of becoming entangled in a situation that would cause personal disaster. Criminals become emboldened because they are confident they can get away with it.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 03:13

Good post Bhima Ji, something relevant from Rediff just out. A very angry article indeed. The last part of the article is so correct too....

If covering up a woman from hair to toe is the solution for women's safety, women would be the happiest under the Taliban [ Images ].

Until we tell our sons that it is an unpardonable crime to harass a woman with the same diligence that we tell our daughters how to dress, nothing will change.

Nothing will change until we stop looking for 'reasons' for rape.

Nothing will change till we accept that the shame in a rape is the man/men's, and not the woman's.

Nothing will change until we as a society realise, to borrow a former colleague's words, that women don't get raped. Men rape.

If you still need proof of how perverse and anti-women we as a society are, look long enough below these lines.

The Indian man is exposing himself there, right on this message board.

Why no Law against Rape will work

A very good point that Bhima made here is that the system itself prevents good citizens from helping others in trouble in many cases. Simply because the existing system will harass the person who helps. The existing training and institutions harass the basic humanity that tries to help some victim. That knowledge and understanding allows hoodlums know that they can get away Din Dahare with crime.

So in the Cop/ Judicial reform we must task out a reward system to encourage citizenry that comes forward to help those in distress. Not harass them using state machinery.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Jan 2013 06:38

If buses are such a necessity during the night why not have female drivers for these buses. Of course, the drivers need to be protected behind a glass like cabin to rule out atrocities on drivers and moreover it is easier to train 1000 ladies in self-defence and the usage of pepper spray than a larger population.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Jan 2013 11:54

Sanku wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote: Indian women put up with a LOT of nonsense.
Well, hard luck Theo, you seem to be getting more than your fair share of trouble. However I still will not take your personal experiences and generally extrapolate it.

Also I am surprised, generally the typical NRI types are rarely in a situation where they attract the kind of attention you talk of. Certainly not in character.

Sankuji,
To get this straight, are you saying that Theo's experiences with the sort of nonsense behaviour wrt his wife while in India are not common and hence cannot be extrapolated to other women's experiences and thereby show that day-to-day living for women in India vis a vis everyday activities in public aren't torturous and every second of their public presence isn't an act of wondering which unseen hand in the crowd is going to grab them? If you don't think women don't step out of their houses with even a hint of fear of being groped or grabbed or molested, I'd like you to go meet all those college and young working women who carry pins and elbow anyone who gets too close.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 02 Jan 2013 12:18

the fear that Indian women face is genuine. going out at night after 9:00 is still a very big deal. usually, the general rule is for some able bodied man to accompany women during night time.

what about a sex-education class in high school? teach the kids about "abstinence until you are responsible and grown-up", about STD's, and respecting "partners' rights". in USA, all/most public high schools have a mandatory sex-ed class.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jan 2013 12:39

Prasad wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Well, hard luck Theo, you seem to be getting more than your fair share of trouble. However I still will not take your personal experiences and generally extrapolate it.

Also I am surprised, generally the typical NRI types are rarely in a situation where they attract the kind of attention you talk of. Certainly not in character.
Sankuji,
To get this straight, are you saying that Theo's experiences with the sort of nonsense behaviour wrt his wife while in India are not common and hence cannot be extrapolated to other women's experiences and thereby show that day-to-day living for women in India vis a vis everyday activities in public aren't torturous and every second of their public presence isn't an act of wondering which unseen hand in the crowd is going to grab them? If you don't think women don't step out of their houses with even a hint of fear of being groped or grabbed or molested, I'd like you to go meet all those college and young working women who carry pins and elbow anyone who gets too close.

Prasad-ji;

I think you very well know what I am saying, I also think I have more women relatives handling the reality of India everyday than many here, so I know the reality of India very well.

Also statements like "hints of fear" etc, are all very nice, but everyone will have a hint of fear in the real world anywhere. Its nice to say "where the mind is without fear etc" -- but the reality is grey, even men, step out with more than a hint of fear of accidents, running into thugs etc etc.

And oh, this discussion started around "If India becomes a replica values and culture following US all problems will be solved" type of solution -- with "women are unsafe in India" as the lynch pin of why we must be like that. Theo-ji went on to say proudly (being non-pc of course) that his wife regularly tells women in India that India is s**** beyond hope and all Indian women should get out of India pronto because that this their only hope and prayer.

Are you saying that there is no "hint of fear for anyone in US" as well?

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 02 Jan 2013 13:04

Sanku wrote: Prasad-ji;

I think you very well know what I am saying, I also think I have more women relatives handling the reality of India everyday than many here, so I know the reality of India very well.

Also statements like "hints of fear" etc, are all very nice, but everyone will have a hint of fear in the real world anywhere. Its nice to say "where the mind is without fear etc" -- but the reality is grey, even men, step out with more than a hint of fear of accidents, running into thugs etc etc.

And oh, this discussion started around "If India becomes a replica values and culture following US all problems will be solved" type of solution -- with "women are unsafe in India" as the lynch pin of why we must be like that. Theo-ji went on to say proudly (being non-pc of course) that his wife regularly tells women in India that India is s**** beyond hope and all Indian women should get out of India pronto because that this their only hope and prayer.

Are you saying that there is no "hint of fear for anyone in US" as well?

Sankuji, it's the basis of comparison.

Of course there is fear in the US as well- women are warned to be always aware of their surroundings, be careful at nights, not to venture in deserted places and so on. My wife even went through a self defence class organized by the local police when we were staying in Illinois. There are some places where it's not worth your life for a woman- heck even a man- to venture alone.

But we are, I fear, in danger of doing an equal-equal here.

I'm admittedly throwing in my personal experience as well (having moved to India recently with the wife), the fear and/ or aggravation for a average working woman in the US is nothing compared to what her counterpart faces in India. My experience set includes only 10-12 Indian families with working women. FWIW, every single person has spoken about the sense of personal liberation and freedom they feel working in the US, compared to their work experiences in India. This is not to say that those who return have not adjusted; but the difference is precise and very clear.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 02 Jan 2013 13:12

I'm not sick and tired of saying ' I don't effing care if the US is better or worse than India'. What I want is India to be safe for everyone.

I think you very well know what I am saying, I also think I have more women relatives handling the reality of India everyday than many here, so I know the reality of India very well.

I don't care about the second line. We all have women relatives in India. Wife, sister, mother, multitudes of cousins, their moms, their friends, my friends. Runs into hundreds. So that is irrelevant. As to the first line, I actually don't.

As for the pissing contest, I don't care about that either. What I do care about, is that while as a man, you might be scared of venturing into a shady area, would you even for a second think about getting groped on a bus from adayar to nungambakkam? No. Do college girls who take the 29c on this route to college everyday have that fear? Yes. End case.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. My wife, my sister, my cousins, my friends all have reported atleast one incident occurring in public to them. Heck I wrote a post on an internal blog in my previous company and I had 54 comment recounting their own sad experiences in public transport alone! Are you telling them tough luck too? All of them still living in India. Women. You know better than they do that they have to live with the constant nagging thought of being violated in some way? What utter nonsense.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Jan 2013 13:15

Baikul, Prasad Ji plus 1.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Jan 2013 13:35

Gus wrote:well...nobody can accuse JJ of being slow and indecisive

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 261610.ece
Ms. Jayalalithaa said her government would set up fast track Mahila courts in each district to deal with sexual crimes against women, appoint women investigating officers and prosecutors to make the police probe and trial more gender-sensitive. Efforts would be made to expedite the trial by holding daily hearings.

The Goondas Act, a preventive detention law, would be amended to include sexual offenders under the Act’s purview.

Sexual offences against women would be considered grave crimes henceforth; investigation would be supervised by deputy superintendents of police. Women inspectors, or in their absence, women sub-inspectors would assist the enquiry. Superintendents of police and Deputy Inspectors General would conduct a monthly review of such cases.

IGs would submit a report in 15 days on the number of cases of sexual crime under investigation and pending in courts to the Additional Director General of Police (Law and Order).

The Centre would be requested to bring in amendments to introduce death penalty and chemical castration for sexual offenders and prevent them from getting bail till the trial is completed.
Is the Goonda's act a state law that TN can amend by itself and not depend on GoI?

Lets see if incidents reduce in TN from this point on.

Yes. Law and order is a state subject.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Jan 2013 14:03

http://ishare.rediff.com/video/entertai ... ly/8092584

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jan 2013 15:04

Prasad wrote:I'm not sick and tired of saying ' I don't effing care if the US is better or worse than India'. What I want is India to be safe for everyone.
.

Then Prasad-ji your ire should be directed to those who bring it up to distort discussion about India. No point getting angry at those who are trying to say what you are saying in their own ways.

You see I hope?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jan 2013 15:06

Prasad wrote:You know better than they do that they have to live with the constant nagging thought of being violated in some way? What utter nonsense.

It would be easier to communicate if you made a attempt to discuss on the basis of what was being said rather than extrapolating and then flying off on ranting tanget.

What nonsense indeed.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jan 2013 15:17

Baikul wrote: My wife even went through a self defence class organized by the local police when we were staying in Illinois

FWIW, every single person has spoken about the sense of personal liberation and freedom they feel working in the US, compared to their work experiences in India.

Baikul-ji --> Well considering that when in US people go though self defence classes organized by the police (clearly the need is felt) -- when in India, feeling moderately unsettled and uncomfortable suffices, should be a open and shut case of the games the mind plays on us, should it not?

That is my point in the past post often, the same folks who in US pick garbage as a community initiative, happily sit on their asses expect others to clean up and crib when things are not clean. (Kindly do not take it personally -- I meant a general crowd)

There are different expectations, and mind works differently, for example in Prasad-ji's case, he thinks he does not care what US is and what it should be like and only cares about India, however he did not raise this issue when Theo-ji was advocating the USization of India as a solution. However he thought nothing wrong in taking one statement of mine from the entire discussion, taking it completely out of context, and then accusing me of nonsense ascribing to me statements and thoughts which I never made.

We need some clarity in our minds here I think, we are badly muddled.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 02 Jan 2013 15:34

FYI - There is this recent documentary called The Invisible War highlighting the sexual abuse in US Military. Highly recommend waching it.

The Invisible War

(added later): this documentary is available on youtube
[youtube]uPJZhNex6qU&feature=mv_sr[/youtube]

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 02 Jan 2013 15:46

Sanku wrote:..Baikul-ji --> Well considering that when in US people go though self defence classes organized by the police (clearly the need is felt) -- when in India, feeling moderately unsettled and uncomfortable suffices, should be a open and shut case of the games the mind plays on us, should it not?

Sankuji, no, IMO. This implicit comparison is incorrect. In fact prevalence defence classes in the US is less a symptom of the fact that it is not as safe or equally unsafe as India, but more because they overemphasize personal protection. Thus for example, the classes that my wife attended happened when we were at the time living in an upmarket university town where cases of harassment were extremely rare.

That is my point in the past post often, the same folks who in US pick garbage as a community initiative, happily sit on their asses expect others to clean up and crib when things are not clean. (Kindly do not take it personally -- I meant a general crowd)

I do not take most things personally, and certainly not this which is valid criticism. However, the very fact that some of the 'phoren returned' types are on this a 'solutions' thread, and giving ideas, would point to the fact that we're trying to be part of the solution too. Of course we may not be doing everything that can be done.

We need some clarity in our minds here I think, we are badly muddled.

I think both Indians living in India (to put it clumsily) and NRIs/'recently returneds') have valid POVs. As part of the latter group people like me need to be a little more careful in how we express our sentiment, those who have lived in India for a longer time could also try to filter the valid criticism.

We could be muddled in our approach, which we are trying to discuss, but in my opinion we have clarity in terms of the purpose of this thread - that we need to find solutions to make India a safer place for women.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jan 2013 16:33

Baikul wrote: Sankuji, no, IMO. This implicit comparison is incorrect. In fact prevalence defence classes in the US is less a symptom of the fact that it is not as safe or equally unsafe as India, but more because they overemphasize personal protection.

Baikul-ji; I see what you are saying and agree --> my point was slightly different though. Clearly personal defence classes are something which are understood in US, even in low crime intensity area. In India (same) people would not do so by and large (there are not shortage of such classes) -- why and what is something to wonder.

Is it that we have some inherent mental models about India and we live in those when here, whereas once in US, since new mental models are needed Indians are more willing to see other ways? Perhaps.

But what it means is, that the US perspective and the India perspective of the same person are not similarly objective, in one case they are going by the "accepted" narrative of India, which is Nehruvian and we all know what it is, in US they are more objective perhaps, or at least are relatively free from prior conditioning (unless "US is great" is a conditioning which is also kicking in)

What is the point of the rant --> IMVHO the perspectives that desi's offer of US and India, need to be examined carefully for objectivity before they can be accepted as fact. It is not a knock of Desi's in US (or elsewhere) --> just a thought experiment wondering why the perceptions and reality are often different.

'phoren returned' types are on this a 'solutions' thread, and giving ideas, would point to the fact that we're trying to be part of the solution too. Of course we may not be doing everything that can be done.

I do not disagree. You have expressed it well, and it would be difficult to anyway disagree if you put it across like that.

I think both Indians living in India (to put it clumsily) and NRIs/'recently returneds') have valid POVs. As part of the latter group people like me need to be a little more careful in how we express our sentiment, those who have lived in India for a longer time could also try to filter the valid criticism.

We could be muddled in our approach, which we are trying to discuss, but in my opinion we have clarity in terms of the purpose of this thread - that we need to find solutions to make India a safer place for women.

Well said Baikul-ji.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 02 Jan 2013 16:41

Sanku wrote:.........my point was slightly different though. Clearly personal defence classes are something which are understood in US, even in low crime intensity area. In India (same) people would not do so by and large (there are not shortage of such classes) -- why and what is something to wonder.

Is it that we have some inherent mental models about India and we live in those when here, whereas once in US, since new mental models are needed Indians are more willing to see other ways? Perhaps.

But what it means is, that the US perspective and the India perspective of the same person are not similarly objective, in one case they are going by the "accepted" narrative of India, which is Nehruvian and we all know what it is, in US they are more objective perhaps, or at least are relatively free from prior conditioning (unless "US is great" is a conditioning which is also kicking in)

What is the point of the rant --> IMVHO the perspectives that desi's offer of US and India, need to be examined carefully for objectivity before they can be accepted as fact. It is not a knock of Desi's in US (or elsewhere) --> just a thought experiment wondering why the perceptions and reality are often different.

I see nothing to differ from in this analysis, sankuji.

On with the thread.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Jan 2013 17:34

It remains my lament that men are trying to tell women what they can and can not do in their attempt to feel safe in India. The unfortunate thing is even I am doing this because women have little voice.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jan 2013 23:10

Theo_Fidel wrote:It remains my lament that men are trying to tell women what they can and can not do in their attempt to feel safe in India. The unfortunate thing is even I am doing this because women have little voice.

Women and men both need to have a constant dialogue on the process, I dont see anything wrong in men trying to tell women about safety, your view seems to presuppose that women and men are two different races if not species that must be constantly trying to work out difficult relationship between the two.

To me it seems like 1920s US feminist type construct, I dont see the world in that way, men and women mutually deciding on issues based on conversation is not a problem, and not that of voice either.

NO need to have a extreme view on the matter -- a complete rejection of men's thought is no yardstick of independence, in any case interdependence is welcome, extreme independence only leads to dysfunctional societies like in US and Eu (which are a response to the church based old western cultural with rejection of women)