Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[Atri]

But descent was not according to current definitions - by blood line only. Descent could be from any of the five fathers, for example. Thus a sikshaka/guru/deekshadata is deemed one of the pancha peetri - and hence the sishya is a son by descent.

+ 1

Pita - पिता (father)
Acharya - आचार्य (teacher)
Shvashura - श्वशुर (father in law)
Annadaata - अन्नदाता (employer)
Bhaya traata - भयत्राता (protector)

these are considered 5 fathers... A descent can be via any one of these 5.

[brihaspati]

Moreover, Gotra is not inherited from any and every rishi/guru(also, remember that every Guru is not a rishi, for example Dronacharya is an acharya, not a rishi). Gotra is inherited only from few select original rishis(who are supposed to have started the lineages for entire humanity. They or their descendents revived the family lines when they faced extinction).

If 'Gotra' is merely based on the Guru, then how is it that only some rishis have started the 'Gotra' even though we know that 1000s(if not 100s of 1000s) of Gurus must have established the schools.

The above accounts for the various 'Kulas' and their constantly changing nature. While, the 'Gotra' is based on the only the first rishis. And, thus, they are unchanging and derived from father to son (or from husband to wife). Thats why the 'Gotras' have, more or less, remained constant, that means the Gotras that were followed during the Ramayana are also followed today(approx.). But, the same can't be said about Kulas. They have kept changing. Several newer Kulas have been added. But, newer Gotras have not been added(of course, some corruption cannot be ruled out like in any human system).

Now, Dhrishtadyumna(Draupadi's brother), Pandavas, Kauravas, Karna, Ashwattama were students of Dronacharya. Does that mean they had same 'Gotra'? Remember, Pandavas could not have married Draupadi if their Gotra was same.

....
According to my understanding:
On the other hand, since they were all disciples of the same Guru, they can be seen as belonging to the same 'Kula'. Belonging to same 'Kula' need not mean the same Varna. Of course, if a particular Guru would take disciples from only particular families, then only those families would be part of that 'Kula'.
....

But, this much is clear, 'Gotra' is based on descent from father's side and not on Guru-Disciple relation. Possibly, it is the 'Kula' which is based on Guru-Disciple relation and not on descent(at least initially).

Varna is partly based on birth and partly on behaviour. It seems, the Varna system collapsed after MB war. 'Kula' became rigid over the years. It is only 'Gotra' that has survived with little change.

Well this would become too serious and too long a discussion then. I have problems with the ascription of varnas and kulas to the early "rishis" in obviously later references and teekakars of the RV led texts. One can see the various twists of logic that later authors face in trying to interpret/"guess" the varnas of the founding fathers. Originally - the very concept of genetic descent itself might not have existed in the early days as we understand it today. Fatherhood might not have been as strictly biologically identified as it came to be later on.

The smaller number of gotras is not unlikely - if we postulate that these were identifiers from a time not that well documented or remembered or too long into the past, when well-established and well-known groups would be lesser than when populatiuons had increased many times.

So in a way what you are saying is correct too - that it had the concept of a group as the progenitor as the fundamental basis of the nomenclature. But this group - how it was defined to start with - could have started in a period of social organization when biological fathers were not so easily identifiable, or it wa snot the practice of doing so.

Therefore conisdering that possibility, the name of a rishi given to a group could simply be an identifier based on the most prominent or dominant male leader, be it in war or intellect or both [a lot of the rishis appear to be as adept in handling head-chopping instruments as they are qyick with their curses, temper and debating skills]. Similarly, gotra descent need not be from the same "genetic" gotra - as otherwise the niyoga practice would become invalid for Pandavas [what is the gotra of Surya/Indra ityadi?]

It was perhaps later, more complicated social and economic structures that both gave rise to as well as supported the more intricate divisions and biologically strictly determined fatherhood.

[member_20317]

In writing the following I am not interested in parsing the meaning of ‘faith’. It is ‘Shruddha’ that I am interested in.

Somewhere else somebody said something to the effect that faith is inescapable even if you turn atheist.

Somebody else just did away with the term itself basically saying ‘no faith vaith, all bakwaas’

Part of the problem is easily discernible. The non-translatables of Indic origin. So away I went looking for faith in the Indic context in Gita. Picked up a few random shlok 39, 40 of Chapter 5. Both use the word ‘Shruddha’ and both were translated as ‘faith’ in an English translation. I looked around further and following is the list of how ‘people of Indic origin’ / ‘people trained about Indic systems’ described ‘Shruddha’:

1. Faith, Trust
2. Confidence, Loyalty
3. Desire (picked from wikiationary)
4. Buddhist case - “Trust & Conviction….It most commonly refers to the conviction that develops from one's own direct experience and practice.”
5. Veneration.
6. Anything done with sincerity and faith.

Following are the words that were used in the shloks to create the context (basically circumstantial evidence useful to construe the meaning) source being the the Gita Press,
(http://www.gitapress.org/BOOKS/GITA/18/18_Gita.pdf):
1. Vivekheen
2. Sanshay-yukt
3. Jitendriya
4. Gyan tatpar
5. Saadhan paraayan

The word Shruddha is often times qualified as follows to convey an absence of the state of Shruddha or a process that is contrary to the process necessary to arrive at the state of Shruddha.
1. Shruddha viheen
2. Andh-Shruddha


Proposition 1 – Shruddha has nothing to do with experience.
Proposition 2 – Shruddha can only develop with experience.
Proposition 3 – Shruddha and experience share a dynamic mutually-supportive relationship but are not coextensive/coterminus.
Proposition 4 – Shruddha can only develop in an Indic mind because only a confused mind can think of a concept so contrived/artificial as to become non-translatable.

[Nilesh Oak]

In writing the following I am not interested in parsing the meaning of ‘faith’. It is ‘Shruddha’ that I am interested in.

Proposition 1 – Shruddha has nothing to do with experience.
Proposition 2 – Shruddha can only develop with experience.
Proposition 3 – Shruddha and experience share a dynamic mutually-supportive relationship but are not coextensive/coterminus.
Proposition 4 – Shruddha can only develop in an Indic mind because only a confused mind can think of a concept so contrived/artificial as to become non-translatable.

My shraddha about definition/proposition is Proposition#3 with modifications...

Proposition 3 - modified: Shruddha and experience share a dynamic mutually-supportive relationship

[RamaY]

Human Brain, Internet, and Cosmology: Similar Laws at Work?

The structure of the universe and the laws that govern its growth may be more similar than previously thought to the structure and growth of the human brain and other complex networks, such as the Internet or a social network of trust relationships between people, according to a new paper published in the science journal Nature's Scientific Reports.

"By no means do we claim that the universe is a global brain or a computer," said Dmitri Krioukov, co-author of the paper, published by the Cooperative Association for Internet Data Analysis (CAIDA), based at the San Diego Supercomputer Center (SDSC) at the University of California, San Diego. "But the discovered equivalence between the growth of the universe and complex networks strongly suggests that unexpectedly similar laws govern the dynamics of these very different complex systems."

[brihaspati]

Thank you RamaY ji - a shot in the arm for my own belief model!

[RamaY]

Best is to think of the varnas as gunas, residing in each human simultaneously - as a residue from universal consciousness. The gunas are a bare minimum of four aspects of the human existence - the need to be a thinking intellect exercising knowledge questing being, the need to be productive with labour or skill, the need to exchange the products of that labour with others, the need to take up arms to defend life and lives. Note that all four are connected to enhancing the human living experience - and hence part of universal consciousness and awareness, and hence shared by all.

B ji: This would violate the spirit of cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Varna is a four fold division of society based on individuals guna and karma. Both guna and karma cannot ever be completely divorced from genes and environment.

Not necessarily. When an individual is self-aware, then one becomes aware of various dimensions of his being, catur-varnas being part of those dimensions. There could be more dimensions but these four make a human human. An individual may fall below these varnas displaying animistic (or Asuric) tendencies or one can move beyond this into devata dimensions.

It is some rendition of Transactional Analysis, if you will. People change their roles based on their interactions and the other members of the transaction. A matured individual knows how to interact with the other person based on their state of being or the nature of the transaction at hand.

Perhaps Satyavati displayed her sudra varna when she was mere boat woman, where as her Brahminc consciousness was raised in the presence of Parasara. And the same Satyavati displayed Kshatriya consciousness by telling Santana to talk to her father. And she also displayed her Kshatriya consciousness when she tried to extend Kuru rule thru innovative approaches.

[RamaY]

X-Posting because it tells us the Katha of Bahuka... and its relevance to modern times...

http://www.firstpost.com/politics/with- ... 37471.html
With direct cash transfer, Cong says ‘aapka paisa aapke haath’

The Congress may presently wax eloquent about the importance of the direct cash transfer scheme that it will roll out across the country from 2013, but it also revealed that that scheme might just give them a poll slogan for the next elections.

“Aap ka paisa aapke haath” was how Minister for Rural Development Jairam Ramesh chose to describe the cash transfer scheme which the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said will be rolled out across 51 districts in the country.

While the Congress may not have come up with a catchy slogan for the scheme yet, Ramesh’s contribution, coming during a press conference addressed by Chidambaram and him might just catch the fancy of the party’s spin doctors for the next elections.


Speaking about the scheme, Finance Minister P Chidambaram said that benefits under 29 welfare schemes being operated by different ministries would be transferred through Aadhaar-enabled bank accounts in 51 districts spread over 16 states from 1 January, 2013.

Bahuka Economics

Bahuka figures in the Bhagawata Purana, and was the advisor of Jarasandha, who was Kamsa's father-in-law. Kamsa, who regarded Sri Krishna as his enemy, asked Bahuka's advice on how to make his subjects state-dependent. Bahuka told him: “Open your treasury to the people. Make the people eat, drink and enjoy themselves. Bring up children to look upon parents as old and useless. That will make them laugh at those who talk of duty, love and compassion. Like well-fed cattle at the mercy of the cowherd, the people will be completely dependent on you.”

Rejecting the sage advice of the likes of Milton Friedman and Martin Feldstein, decades ago, the US opted to follow the economics of the likes of Greenspan. The result: Half of American families are state-dependent. But fortunately, Bahuka's economics, close to Greenspan's, was ignored by Indians thousands of years ago, though, of late, some Indian politicians seem influenced by Bahuka's economics.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opi ... epage=true

[kenop]

Pardon if already posted. May be moved to another thread as appropriate
Dr. N Gopalakrishnan's Excellent Lecture on Indian Science at VSC, IIT-Madras

[RamaY]

Reading a Telugu novel "Satyabhama"

http://kinige.com/kbook.php?id=610&name=Satyabhama

Arjuna brought very few surviving Yadava women and children to Kurukshetra after Dwaraka fell to raising oceans.

Both Krishna and Balarama died. (what happens to the theory that Balarama sailed to Egypt?)

Then Arjuna coronated the following in different cities/kingdoms

1. Kritavarma's son is made king of Mrittikavatapura

2. Satyaki's son is made king of Saraswati City

3. Vajra is made king of Indraprastha (This is the same Dharmaraja's Indraprastha)

Thus Yadavas became kings of quite a few areas after fall of Dwaraka

[member_20317]

Human Brain, Internet, and Cosmology: Similar Laws at Work?

The structure of the universe and the laws that govern its growth may be more similar than previously thought to the structure and growth of the human brain and other complex networks, such as the Internet or a social network of trust relationships between people, according to a new paper published in the science journal Nature's Scientific Reports.

"By no means do we claim that the universe is a global brain or a computer," said Dmitri Krioukov, co-author of the paper, published by the Cooperative Association for Internet Data Analysis (CAIDA), based at the San Diego Supercomputer Center (SDSC) at the University of California, San Diego. "But the discovered equivalence between the growth of the universe and complex networks strongly suggests that unexpectedly similar laws govern the dynamics of these very different complex systems."

RamaY ji, the financiers are a strange mix, hein ji

The following quote in the article you linked:

This research was supported by multiple grants, including Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) grant number HR0011-12-1-0012; NSF grants number CNS-0964236 and CNS-1039646; Cisco Systems; Foundational Questions Institute grant number FQXi-RFP3-1018; George W. and Carol A. Lattimer Campus Professorship at UC San Diego; Office of the Ministry of Economy and Competitiveness, Spain (MICINN) project number FIS2010-21781-C02-02; Generalitat de Catalunya grant number 2009SGR838; and by the Catalan Institution for Research and Advanced Studies (ICREA) Academia Prize funded by the Generalitat de Catalunya, Spain.

Added later:
Can this get any more multi disciplinary!

http://www.templeton.org/who-we-are/med ... itute-fqxi
John Templeton Foundation has financed 'The Foundational Questions Institute'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalitat_of_Catalonia

http://www.nsf.gov/funding/

NSF Program Areas:
Biological Sciences
Computer & Information Science & Engineering
Cyberinfrastructure
Education and Human Resources
Engineering
Environmental Research & Education
Geosciences
Integrative Activities
International Science & Engineering
Mathematical & Physical Sciences
Polar Programs
Social, Behavioral & Economic Sciences

[RamaY]

Similarities between the chakras : Self, Others and Achievements

The 2nd and 4th chakras are about others:  family and dharma respectively.

About other people and doing what is good for them. While the 2nd chakra is about the people we know personally, the 4th is about the whole world. It is a question of scale in one way. (vasudhaiva kuTumbam.)

The 3rd and 6th chakras are about achievements – material in the third, siddhis in the 6th.

In the third the tapas is about material goals, in the 6th it is about the avyakta. (unmanifest, undifferentiated)

The 1st, 5th and 7th are about our self.

The first is about the care of the body, the fifth is about the care of the mind and ideas and the seventh is about the Self of All.

[abhischekcc]

Human Brain, Internet, and Cosmology: Similar Laws at Work?

The structure of the universe and the laws that govern its growth may be more similar than previously thought to the structure and growth of the human brain and other complex networks, such as the Internet or a social network of trust relationships between people, according to a new paper published in the science journal Nature's Scientific Reports.

"By no means do we claim that the universe is a global brain or a computer," said Dmitri Krioukov, co-author of the paper, published by the Cooperative Association for Internet Data Analysis (CAIDA), based at the San Diego Supercomputer Center (SDSC) at the University of California, San Diego. "But the discovered equivalence between the growth of the universe and complex networks strongly suggests that unexpectedly similar laws govern the dynamics of these very different complex systems."

Yatha Brahmande, Tatha Pinde.

[RamaY]

The Maha Kumbha Mela is between Jan 14 and March 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20352526

[Agnimitra]

C. G. Jung about the insanity of living without myth

[SaiK]

chandra dev chariot is driven by antelope.. which resembles santa's reindeer.

[Agnimitra]

Responding to this post by Atri ji on the Indian Interests thread on main forum:

Ishwara is "optional" in Paatanjala Yoga. Yoga is based on Nirishwar Vaadi Saankhya philosophy (non-theistic Sankhya). Almost all of our sciences in Moksha, Artha, Kaama, Dharma aspects of life have origin in Sankhya. Be it Arthashastra, Ayurveda or others.

"Ishwar Pranidhaana" (going close to Ishwara) is one of the "tools" for the ultimate aim of "Chitta-Vritti Nirodha". There are other tools for achieving this goal and Patanjali acknowledges Ishwara Pranidhana (Bhakti) as one of the "tool". It does not matter whether Ishwara exists OR not, as long as that concept is used to restrict and channelize the tendencies of Chitta (vaguely translated as higher mind).

Atri ji, I feel uncomfortable about calling Ishwar "optional", though I agree with "tool" (or helper, co-creator, etc.)

In the sutra after ishwara pranidhana, Patanjali's concept of Ishwara is defined: 1.24 That creative source (ishvara) is a particular consciousness (purusha) that is unaffected by the subconscious pain (klesha), enactments (karmas), or results of those actions that happen when latent impressions stir and cause those actions. (klesha-karma-vipAka-AshAyaiH aparamRiShTaH puruSha-viShesha ishvara |)

Found a diagram on the web:


So Ishwara bestows a state that is fully free from those samskaras and karmas that come out of the shadows to bite us in the arse - causing us to either be thrown off an intended course (vikshepa-shakti) or to have our viewpoint occluded and things to be concealed (AvaraNa-shakti). IOW, these prevent the human from being able to "fully complete a cycle of action at all levels of being" (samAdhi).

Thus, in closeness with Ishwara, the human can function at an optimum, and act for the greatest good -- by being able to consider causes and consequences across all layers of the Self (body, sexuality and family, group identities, humanity as a whole, animal and plant kingdom, all of matter-energy and space-time, and the transcendental spiritual self).

Drawing close to Ishwara is in degrees, because for example one may experience freedom from the kleshas, karmas, etc. by virtue of being "ejected" temporarily from them, but without having resolved them. That's one degree. Further degrees would be actually working through them. This freedom and ability gained then acts as a "tool" for samadhi.

However, I doubt whether this freedom and ability (i.e. Ishwara's nearness) is "optional". I dunno, perhaps there are ways of mercy whereby man can find samadhi without first freeing himself of entanglement with the subconscious reactive mind. But I doubt if Patanjali's yoga sutras indicates that. I would like to know more on this.

I guess one could say that practices of personally relating to a Supreme Being is "optional", but Ishwara itself is not optional. One has to acknowledge it as the desirable state of being, though the ways of acknowledgment can vary.

Of course, "bhakti" (or perhaps parA-bhakti) is not just the initial practice of relating with the Supreme Being, but is the very function of consciousness that is freed from the klesha-karma, etc. So in that sense bhakti is the end phenomenon of nearness with Ishwara.

As B ji pointed out on that thread, the difference with Dharmic and Adharmic forms of "meditating" on "God"/Ishwara is in the conception of Ishwara and Self - especially in terms of the idea of "self"-determinism. The Dharmic idea AFAIU is that "the self" itself is layered and all encompassing. Love for Ishwara is the means of gaining full possession of the Self in order to relate with Ishwara fully. "Adharmic" conception sometimes becomes stuck in one of "Lord Almighty", an order-supplier to whom we are slaves or infantile children passing through a world full of danger and temptation that is never the self. But Vishnu becomes Ishwara as "anAtha-nAtha", "Lord of those who have no lord". That is Ishwara AFAIU.

JMT.

[Prem]

"RamaY"]Human Brain, Internet, and Cosmology: Similar Laws at Work?

The structure of the universe and the laws that govern its growth may be more similar than previously thought to the structure and growth of the human brain and other complex networks, such as the Internet or a social network of trust relationships between people, according to a new paper published in the science journal Nature's Scientific Reports."By no means do we claim that the universe is a global brain or a computer," said Dmitri Krioukov, co-author of the paper, published by the Cooperative Association for Internet Data Analysis (CAIDA), based at the San Diego Supercomputer Center (SDSC) at the University of California, San Diego. "But the discovered equivalence between the growth of the universe and complex networks strongly suggests that unexpectedly similar laws govern the dynamics of these very different complex systems."Yatha Brahmande, Tatha Pinde.

Getting the glimpse of Mahat / Shiva ?
Vivekananda had this experience on his Amaranath visit.

[Atri]

Carl ji,

Lets check the sutras..

17. वितर्कविचारानन्दास्मितारुपानुगमात संप्रज्ञात:

Vitarka (specialized reasoning), Vichaara (specialized discrimination), Aananda (Propitiousness), Asmita (Ego OR Ahamkara OR Aatman) are four types of Samadhis through which yogi traverses (before he reaches singularity OR Kaivalya).

These are four Samadhis. While Samadhi is ultimate aim of Yogi, Samadhi or samApattee itself means "Sam+aa+patti" - Falling completely from all sides. State of perfect coupling OR Yoke OR yoga with subject of concentration (Dhaarana) and Meditation (Dhyaana). Concentrating on idea, we first indulge in tarka (reasoning). Once logical reasoning phase is over, we start doing vichaara (discrimination of signal from noise). Once noise is removed and only signal remains, a yogi experiences complete bliss. However he has to even give up this bliss and then what remains is only "I". In future sutras, Maharshi says, one has to give up this "I" (asmita) as well to achieve complete Yoga.

Thus state of Samadhi while we are reasoning is called "Savitarka Samadhi".
State of Samadhi when we are discriminating signal from noise we call as "Savichara samadhi".
State of Samadhi when even discrimination stops and bliss emerges, we call as "Saananda Samadhi" or more popularly "Nirvikalpa Samadhi".
State when only "I" remains is called "Saasmitaa samadhi".

18. विरामप्रत्ययाभ्यासपूर्व: संस्कारशेषोन्य:

Referring to four samadhis above, maharshi says,"attaining former samadhis (first three) causes the tendencies of Chitta to come to halt, while in latter (fourth) while tendencies of all others are restricted, the impressions (sanskaaras) of "I" still linger.

here all others refer to different Purushas in Saankhya. This is my favourite concept in dharmik fold. There are many dimensions to "I". When we say "I" we mean different "me" in different contexts. Ego (aatma), Buddhi, Manas, Organs, body, family, caste, society, mankind, universe/multiverse (whatever it is), Brahma. All these are "I". Since we are dealing with Moksha shastra, we take spectrum of "I" from Aatman to Body. Other "I"s come in scope of inquiry of Artha and Dharma shastras.

Maharshi says, in first three samadhis, the impressions of Indriyas, Manas and Buddhi come to halt respectively. However even after attaining fourth samadhi, the sense that "I" exist still remains. Hence this is not last step.

19. भवप्रत्ययो विदेह्प्रकृतीलयानाम

Those who have attained Videha avastha can trespass these stages of mind effortlessly, dissolve the prakritis of all "I"s and attain Yoga with any subject or idea or person or entity at will.

20. श्रद्धावीर्यस्मृतिसमाधिप्रज्ञापूर्वक इतरेषाम्

Others (who are not Siddha OR accomplished) can achieve the same with faith, effort, memory, Samadhis and intense and sharp intellet (Pragna is difficult to translate again).

Maharshi explains different types of Pragna ahead. One of them is Rtumbharaa.. Prajna is, in colloquial terms, the light-bulb moment when suddenly we understand the topic and realize and everything gets clear like flash of lightening - as if in moment before we knew nothing and moment after we realize everything.

Pra+Gna - Knowing intensely.

21. तीव्रसंवेगानाम आसन्नः
Those who practice with five tools mentioned above, state of Yoga (coupling) comes rapidly.

22. मृदुमध्याधिमात्रत्वात् ततोऽपि विशेषः
There are three types of "Yogis" equipped with 5 tools above - Slower, medium and special.

While all 5 tools are present with candidate yogis, the state of yoga comes at different pace to different sadhakas. Some attain it rapidly, some have to undergo rigorous efforts. This is explained by Saankhya by difference is Prakriti of every entity OR I. Typically higher proportion of Satvaguna makes the efforts easier.

23. ईश्वरप्रणिधानाद्वा
OR this coupling can be achieved by Ishvara Pranidhaana (in simple words, bhakti of Ishwara)

24. क्लेशकर्मविपाकाशयैरपरामृष्टः पुरुषविशेष ईश्वरः

Here Maharshi explains what Ishwara means in Yoga.

Ishwara is a particular Purusha who is untouched by afflictions, actions, and their results.

25. तत्र निरतिशयं सर्वज्ञ्त्वबीजम्
Ishwara is the seed of omniscience.

26. स पूर्वेषाम् अपि गुरुः कालेनानवच्छेदात्
Ishwara is earlier Guru and is unaffected by time.

27. तस्य वाचकः प्रणवः
OM is its symbol.

28. तज्जपस्तदर्थभावनम्
One choosing the path of attaining yoga by Ishwara pranidhana option, should meditate and practice OM-Sadhana (Pranava sadhana) after knowing its symbolism and meaning and method.

29. ततः प्रत्यक्चेतनाधिगमोऽप्यन्तरायाभावश्च
This helps in dissolution of Chetana (power which operates through Chitta) which would in turn lead to Chitta-Vritti Nirodha.

Samadhi is achieved by a sadhaka who does rigorous "Abhyasa" equipped with 5 tools described in Sutra 20 OR by going close to Ishwara by means of Omkaara Upasana. How the abhyasa (practice) should be, maharshi says in sutra 12, 13, 14 and 15.

Hence here, the concept of Ishwara is an optional tool. Nothing to uncomfortable about. For those who are not comfortable with non-theism, we have theistic philosophies which can be coupled with yoga for same results in the end.

Point to be noted is, although Paatanjala Yogasutras themselves are grounded firmly in Saamkhya sutras (which reject existence of Ishwara), it is more or less a practical manual. One can apply the protocol to understand a scientific concept, a mathematical equation, a social or personal problem or any idea or to attain Brahma. What is the subject of inquiry of a Saadhaka, is outside the scope of Yoga. Yoga simply tells us how to prime our faculties step wise for completion of inquiry.

While Ishwara is an optional tool here, Ishwara is drops off later simply because yoga defines Ishwara as a Purusha and a Beeja (seed) of all that is known. The ultimate aim of Yoga is Kaivalya state (singularity or Only-ness). This is attained when even asmita OR "I" is destroyed and seed of everything eliminated. This ultimate state is referred to in last of the sutras as "nirbeej samadhi" (Seedless Samadhi). The concept of Ishwara is only helpful in taking the sadhaka until last-but-one step (called Asampragnaat samadhi - Samadhi without Prajna). After this, only seed remains (aatman) and it needs to go to achieve kaivalya (a state of nothingness OR where there is no seed of consciousness, no aatma, no brahma).

The terms of avarana, vikshepa power of ishwara etc are Vedantic concepts which is in essence theistic philosophy. Vedantins have to use 6 pramanas (proofs) to justify existence of ishwara. Saamkhya and Yoga recognize only three proofs (Pratyaksha - direct observation, Anumaana - inference based on direct observation and Shabda - literature or shruti).

[Agnimitra]

Atri ji,

Thanks for a wonderful explanation. I had taken this up because I reflexively tend to get into argument about "theism" in Indic traditions. But the stuff you wrote directly pertained to something I have been contemplating for the last couple of weeks. Rather fortuitous!

Maharshi explains different types of Pragna ahead. One of them is Rtumbharaa.. Prajna is, in colloquial terms, the light-bulb moment when suddenly we understand the topic and realize and everything gets clear like flash of lightening - as if in moment before we knew nothing and moment after we realize everything.

Pra+Gna - Knowing intensely.

This year on Dec 8, for the first time AFAIR, I had this "brainfart". It was as if in the twinkling of an eye I popped out of a chronic mental grievance and could see everything very clearly. I could see how this distorted state of mind (pertaining to a particular area of life) had been playing tricks on me. In a flash I went down memory lane over the past 4 years and could see various events now clearly, and could see how this mental distortion had been operating on me. I could also see similar problems with other humans involved in those events. Apart from the new and clear perspective on events and interactions, I also felt an opening of the heart and a freshness of feelings towards all individuals - those involved in a problematic aspect of my life, as well as people in general. I could also immediately sense the inner wealth of feeling in the hearts of other individuals involved, which was actually hidden from themselves due to their own mental distortions. This was not a projection -- over the last 3 weeks I proactively enlivened communication with them regarding this aspect of life. I noticed that although they didn't have the same "brainfart", they progressively came up in emotional tone as they communicated with me over several occasions - from politeness, to misgivings, to expressed anger, to negotiating within their own minds, to a lightheartedness and eventually peace and joy and relief. It surprised them too. This has all been very fascinating for me, and I have been trying to process and understand what exactly happened to me and how I can apply the benefits more in my life. Thanks for this post of yours.

Here are my thoughts in response to our original argument - about whether the concept of "Ishwara" is "optional": I still think that the "vA" (OR) clause in 23 does not indicate "optionality" but rather a relational parallelism with the preceding points. The final goal is not possible without the excellent "intermediary" that hands the soul over to the infinite. This intermediary is Ishwara, which is completely free of any of the guNas. Since there are gradual degrees of purification, therefore it is not illogical to conceptualize the process in terms of degrees of nearness to the desirable intermediary (Ishwara).

There certainly is an "optional" methodology of approaching Ishwara, one based on a priori acceptance and service. Personally, I have observed that at some point even for those who start off by rejecting "Ishwara", the recognition arises in their hearts along the way. Conversely, those of us who started off with Ishwara pranidhaana do also go through 17, 18, 19, etc. unless we get stuck in an Adharmic conception of Ishwara.

I see the 6 darshanas as scopes of logic. Sankhya explicitly states that there is absolutely no need of any acknowledgment of Ishwara in order to arrive at the operational principles to understand and resolve all problems of human behavior and consciousness. This is quite true. Only the finite universe need be considered in order to arrive at a working methodology. This does not, however, mean that one cannot consider or must "reject" metaphysical concepts - it merely rejects the relevance of those speculations to a working method. Yet, the purpose of the method itself - reaching a state of consciousness free from all vikAras (assuming that were even possible) - means it implicitly acknowledges shabda and Ishwara. JMT.

[Atri]

Here are my thoughts in response to our original argument - about whether the concept of "Ishwara" is "optional": I still think that the "vA" (OR) clause in 23 does not indicate "optionality" but rather a relational parallelism with the preceding points. The final goal is not possible without the excellent "intermediary" that hands the soul over to the infinite. This intermediary is Ishwara, which is completely free of any of the guNas. Since there are gradual degrees of purification, therefore it is not illogical to conceptualize the process in terms of degrees of nearness to the desirable intermediary (Ishwara).

Carl ji,

there is no concept of soul in Saamkhya. I presume, by soul you mean Jeeva. There are simply multiple Purushas bounded by multiple prakritis. Puruṣha, the eternal pure consciousness, due to ignorance, identifies itself with products of Prakriti such as intellect (buddhi) and ego (ahamkara). This results in endless transmigration and suffering. Once Avidya vanishes and the realization arises that Puruṣha is distinct from Prakriti and bondage is severed, the Self is no longer subject to transmigration and kaivalya arises. How to dispel Avidya and attain kaivalya, this is taught in Patanjali's Yoga..

Any Purusha which is thus freed and reached Kaivalya is "Ishwara" as per Yoga. But although that such Purusha is itself freed, meditating on such Purusha can take sadhaka only until last-but-one Samadhi. In other words, Ishwara in Yoga cannot grant Moksha. Ishwar Pranidhana as per Yoga is Pranidhana of any such previously freed Purusha. This is fundamentally different from Ishwara of Vedanta.

[Agnimitra]

This is fundamentally different from Ishwara of Vedanta.

Atri ji, I need to think more about this.

there is no concept of soul in Saamkhya. I presume, by soul you mean Jeeva.

I wasn't using words very well. I just meant that the process is carried to conclusion.

Any Purusha which is thus freed and reached Kaivalya is "Ishwara" as per Yoga. But although that such Purusha is itself freed, meditating on such Purusha can take sadhaka only until last-but-one Samadhi.

So by association with and observation of a liberated purusha (Ishwara) one is drawn towards that felicity in one's own entanglement with Prakrti. The other method is to keep working to resolve the problems of the self and life. Whatever the method, one must be able to first appreciate the concept that there is such a being as a fully liberated purusha (Ishwara) in order to take up Sankhya or yoga, even if Ishwara-praNidhAna is not the chosen method. Whatever the chosen method, the admiration of Ishwara or the earnest contemplation of that concept is there. That was what I was trying to say.

In other words, Ishwara in Yoga cannot grant Moksha.

I am wondering, does Ishwara grant moksha in any other system like Vedanta? AFAIK, that is not the case. Only the Parabrahman ("Vishnu", etc.) is considered mukunda, and That is not Ishwara but rather encompasses vidya and avidya. However, Isha/Mukhyaprana does "hand over" the jIva to Vishnu, but even that is not explained in the sense of "granting", but rather as promoting the jIva based on its adhikAra.

[Atri]

Any Purusha which is thus freed and reached Kaivalya is "Ishwara" as per Yoga. But although that such Purusha is itself freed, meditating on such Purusha can take sadhaka only until last-but-one Samadhi.

So by association with and observation of a liberated purusha (Ishwara) one is drawn towards that felicity in one's own entanglement with Prakrti. The other method is to keep working to resolve the problems of the self and life. Whatever the method, one must be able to first appreciate the concept that there is such a being as a fully liberated purusha (Ishwara) in order to take up Sankhya or yoga, even if Ishwara-praNidhAna is not the chosen method. Whatever the chosen method, the admiration of Ishwara or the earnest contemplation of that concept is there. That was what I was trying to say.

Carl ji,

One suggestion. For time being, deracinate Ishwara (ईश्वर) and Vedanta (वेदांत) from your mind. Purva Paksha (पूर्वपक्ष)..

I am copy pasting a passage from Wiki article on Samkhya (सांख्य) with some additions, clarifications and Indic terms.

"Samkhya accepts the notion of higher selves or perfected beings but rejects the notion of Ishwara. The following arguments were given by the Samkhya philosophers against the idea of an eternal, self-caused, Ishwara:

If the existence of karma is assumed, the proposition of Ishwara as a moral governor of the universe is unnecessary. For, if Ishwara enforces the consequences of actions then he cannot do so without performing karma. If however, he is assumed to be within the law of karma, then karma itself would be the giver of consequences and there would be no need of a Ishwara.

Even if karma-Siddhanta (कर्मसिद्धांत) is denied, then Ishwara still cannot be the enforcer of consequences. Because the motives of an enforcer Ishwara would be either born out of Ahamkaara (I-ness or Aatman or ego) or Anubandha (अनुबंध) (altruistic attachment towards world created by him). Now, Ishwara's motives cannot be assumed to be altruistic because an altruistic Ishwara would not create a world so full of suffering. If his motives are assumed to be egoistic, then Ishwara must be thought to have desire, as agency or authority cannot be established in the absence of desire. However, assuming that Ishwara has desire would contradict Ishwara's eternal freedom which necessitates no compulsion in karma. Moreover, desire, according to Samkhya, is an attribute of prakriti and cannot be thought to grow in Ishwara. The testimony of the Vedas, according to Samkhya, also confirms this notion.

Despite arguments to the contrary, if Ishwara is still assumed to contain unfulfilled desires, this would cause him to suffer pain and other similar human experiences. Such a worldly Ishwara would be no better or no worse than Samkhya's notion of higher self (Purusha).

Furthermore, there is no proof of the existence of Ishwara. He is not the object of perception, there exists no general proposition that can prove him by inference and the testimony of the Vedas speak of prakriti as the origin of the world, not Ishwara.

Therefore, Samkhya maintains that the various cosmological, ontological and teleological arguments could not prove God."

The basic premise of Saamkhya-Yoga (सांख्ययोग) is that Purusha gets associated with Prakriti and world comes into existence.

Lets see the terms involved..

Purusha (पुरुष) - Puram Ushati sa Purushah (पुरं उषति स पुरुषः) - One who lives/burns from within/spends time in/afflicts citadel (पूर) is Purusha. Pure energy OR consciousness. The terms like energy etc are also quite modern. The right word would be "tatva" (तत्व)...

Prakriti (प्रकृती) - प्र + कृत् - Something upon which intense action happens. Some energy acts upon this object. Without Prakriti, the knowledge of this energy would be unknown.

Without Prakriti, Purush is intangible, it is intangible kaivalya (onlyness OR nothingness) (कैवल्य).

Now let us check the terms which you have repeatedly used -

Felicity, Admiration, appreciation, earnest contemplation, and most important of all, "being".

All these terms fundamentally imply existence of "Ahamkara"(अहंकार). Note that here the word Ahamkara does not have any negative connotations like pride OR vanity. Aham is "I", kaara is "ness". Ahamkara == Aatman == "I"ness. Sense that "I" exist. Without Ahamkara or ego, all these words and feelings denoted by these words are meaningless. To experience a thing, there has to be an "experiencer". Since there is no association with prakriti, Purusha alone (or Mukta-Purusha) is void, onlyness with no sanskaras (संस्कार) of prakriti.

Now lets move to those Purush/prakriti couples who wish moksha (मोक्ष). There are various layers in which Prakriti attaches herself to Purusha. Yoga asks to step-wise severe those ties. To visualize a metaphor of Purush/Prakriti coupling, imagine a system of phospholipid bilayer in cell-membrane.



A lipids due to their inherent prakriti form various structures in presence of water. One of the structures is called "bilayer" which is fundamental reason behind phenomenon of "life". Two layers of lipids as shown in this figure, trap a small part of water inside their structure and after being trapped, this water trapped within suddenly comes to be known as "cell" which has its own "ego" or "ahamkara". Cell dies when membrane is broken and water within mixes with water outside. Ahamkara OR aatman vanishes.

Here, water is Purusha, the tendency of lipids to form such structure which sometimes results in generation of consciousness, is prakriti. It is because of water that lipids form such structures, so lipids are "being intensely acted upon" by water. Once a separate consciousness comes into existence then there is whole range of attachments, etc which arise - this is evident from diversity of life seen on planet.

Furthermore, not all lipids form bilayer in presence of water. Most of lipids form a structure known as "micelle" which is also prakriti (effect of water acting intensely on lipids) but does not give rise to separate ego (cell). An entity with ego can act and be acted upon. An entity without ego cannot act. Thus, Samkhya-Yoga differentiates between karma and kriya (कर्म और क्रिया - deed and action). Anyways, we partially digress.

In similar manner, prakriti traps Purusha within her. Rather, Kaivalya trapped within bonds of prakriti is called by Saamkhyins and Yogins as Purusha. Kaivalya itself cannot yearn OR admire OR felicitate OR contemplate. It is Prakriti which performs all these actions. The premise of Saamkhya-Yoga is using Prakriti to get rid of Prakriti, against the will or drive of prakriti. Hence Patanjali calls Yoga as "Prati-Prasava (प्रतिप्रसव)" - Sequentially going reverse towards birth/origin.

While this may sound similar to metaphor of Aatman -Brahman (आत्मा-ब्रह्म) from Vedanta, the key difference is that Kaivalya is not Sat-Chit-Aananda (सत् चित् आनंद - सच्चिदानंद). Prakriti is as "satyam" as Purusha is. And Chidananda (consciousness and bliss) is result of Prakriti's coupling with Purusha.

In this process, while Prakriti herself breaks all the bonds with Purusha, the last bond called Beeja (seed) or Ahamkara or Aatman is not within prakriti's hands to sever. One can cut all body parts of self with sword in one hand. But after all body parts are cut, the hand wielding sword cannot cut itself. This is the moment where the fundamental connection is revealed as both beginning and end. The seed of entire existence is revealed. Hence all the steps or states of this sequential severing (known as Samadhi) prior to last step are called Sabeeja Samadhi (सबीज समाधी samadhi with seed intact). When this last tie is also severed, purush becomes kaivalya. But severing of last tie is not in the hands of Prakriti. This is one of the logical fallacies of Saamkhya Yoga. Maharshi Kapil and Maharshi Patanjali have acknowledged this fallacy and explained that as long as "sanchita karma" remains, the last tie cannot be severed. One has to finish up all the sanchita-karma before beeja vanishes. Once sanchita-karma is exhuasted, the beeja of Ahamkara simply drops off as effortlessly as a ripe fruit drops off from branch of a tree. This is Nirbeej Samadhi (निर्बीज समाधी - state of kaivalya without seed of prakriti).

In other words, Ishwara in Yoga cannot grant Moksha.

I am wondering, does Ishwara grant moksha in any other system like Vedanta? AFAIK, that is not the case. Only the Parabrahman ("Vishnu", etc.) is considered mukunda, and That is not Ishwara but rather encompasses vidya and avidya. However, Isha/Mukhyaprana does "hand over" the jIva to Vishnu, but even that is not explained in the sense of "granting", but rather as promoting the jIva based on its adhikAra.

What else is Vishnu OR Shiva or Indra, but Purushas bound by Prakriti on much higher plane of existence than us? A plane where we would be if we do the necessary Sadhana. Vishnu, Shiva et al are not "Ishvara", they are Purush-Prakriti couples like we are. We can be Vishnu/Shiva or whatever, if we elevate ourselves to their plane.

I have covered aspect of Parabrahma in previous paragraph. Regarding an entity being "Mukunda" (मुकुंद), nobody can grant Moksha. Moksha has to be achieved. Once Sanchita karma (संचित कर्म) is exhausted, it is our natural state to be free. There is nothing in it to be granted, that is what Purusha is. Water within cell is no different from water outside. Once cell is broken, water mixes spontaneously. Another entity cannot break this bond for someone. One has to do it himself. And once one does it, one is naturally free, there is no need of a separate "Mukunda". One is one's own "Mukunda".

The problem with Seshvaravaada (Indic Theism) is that it assumes too many big things to make life easier. Less said about Abrahmic theism, the better.

[RamaY]

Within is purusha, outside is purusha. The shell of ego is what is separating this purusha from that purusha.

It is this Purusha's self-driven awareness that removes the maya/illusory shell, making this purusha one with that purusha. In reality the shell is unreal.


OM PURNA MADHA PURNA MIDHUM, PURNADH PURNA MUDHUCHYATE, PURNASAYA MAADHAAI, PURNA MAYVAVAV SHISHYATI ||

[Atri]

Within is purusha, outside is purusha. The shell of ego is what is separating this purusha from that purusha.

It is this Purusha's self-driven awareness that removes the maya/illusory shell, making this purusha one with that purusha. In reality the shell is unreal.


OM PURNA MADHA PURNA MIDHUM, PURNADH PURNA MUDHUCHYATE, PURNASAYA MAADHAAI, PURNA MAYVAVAV SHISHYATI ||

This is Vedanta speaking, RamaY ji, not Samkhya..

Here, shell is Prakriti.. And prakriti is as real as Purusha.. Prakriti is not Maya. and Purusha is not Aatma.. Aatma OR ahamkara is attribute of Prakriti's Yoga (coupling) with Purusha.. Aatma or I arises upon first contact of prakriti with Purusha. Then Aatma forms a base for all subsequent bonds (Buddhi, Manas, indriya, sharira, samaaja, rashtra etc)..

[RamaY]

Per my understanding Samkhya starts by saying

"All that exists is one, it appears as two - Purusha & Prakriti"

[Atri]

Per my understanding Samkhya starts by saying

"All that exists is one, it appears as two - Purusha & Prakriti"

Kapila's sankhya darshan

१. अथ त्रिविध दुःख अत्यन्त निवृत्तिः अत्यन्त पुरुषार्थ
I thus begin exposition for elimination of three sorrows and achievement of last Purushartha (i.e. moksha)

2. न दृष्टा तत् सिद्धिः निवृत्तिः इतिः अप्य अनुवृत्ति दर्शनात
what is not seen, is achieved, by unentanglement by focusing the vrittis according to this darshana.

[member_20317]

Re. Atri ji -

Regarding an entity being "Mukunda" (मुकुंद), nobody can grant Moksha. Moksha has to be achieved. Once Sanchita karma (संचित कर्म) is exhausted, it is our natural state to be free. There is nothing in it to be granted, that is what Purusha is.

Atri ji, thanks for the exposition. Also I have a query of my own in the light of the quoted part above.

Can we use the following logic flow? What pitfalls do you see with this?

-Since nothing is grantable IOW the natural state is free

-Hence we can use this proposition as 'a priori'

-The Sanchit karmas being of Praakartik nature (IOW of the nature of last but one) can mostly be treated as work in progress (in an accounting sense) in that one needs to and can only work further ahead in time to consume the WIP and create the finished product (making appropriate allowances for process losses). There being no way of recreate the raw material from the WIP the so called root cause analysis is doomed to failure.

-This presumption will not bring one to Kaivalya but it will speed up the progress towards Kaivalya and one can enjoy the journey while engrossed in ones work without any anger-guilt dicotomies disturbing the peace of mind.

[Agnimitra]

Atri ji,

Thanks again. That phospholipid bilayer versus micelle analogy was cool. Got a better understanding of sankhya.

However, here's the question: From Sankhya's point of view, how would you explain Patanjali's yoga-darshana that ishwara-praNidhAna is a valid and rather efficient method? How does ishwara praNidhAna work? Is it by a prati-prasava logic of worshipping a "superior" identity in order to let go one's inferior identity? As a way of expanding and encompassing the world that was created as a result of the bonding of purusha-prakRti?

Also, when I spoke of Ishwara, I wasn't thinking of...

If the existence of karma is assumed, the proposition of Ishwara as a moral governor of the universe is unnecessary.

Rather, I was thinking in terms of kaivalya itself, but endowed with a beingness so that It can be conceptualized by the sadhaka. That's how Patanjali himself seems to define Ishwara.

IOW, the way I understand it is that Ishwara as defined by Patanjali is when purusha is still interacting with prakrti (preserving the existence of identity), but is not entangled or confused with it...such that the consciousness of that purusha-prakrti identity can now begin to reflectively observe itself. So a clear mirror without distortions is obtained for vimarsha.

[VikramS]

I am not sure where to put this post, did not want to start a new thread.

Indic religions, or sanatan dharma have a rich tradition, literature and practice going back thousands of years.

Over the years, the underlying philosophy, motivation and principles behind the dharma seem to have gradually dissipated from general consciousness. The current events in Delhi seem to have highlighted them; not only the brutal action of the six murderers, but the utterly contemptuous attitudes of the Delhi Powers, have reinforced my belief that the value system is deeply eroded.

I suspect that one major reason is that for a lot of people, the practice of Dharma has been reduced to following a set of rituals, or worshipping some idols, with little understanding of the spirit behind those rituals. And this cuts across all levels of education & knowledge, and includes many regulars here, including me who learn from Atriji often.

For Dharmics growing up in the traditional family structure, the generation of their elders helped transfer some of that wisdom. But with greater urbanization, long work hours, and nuclear families, that traditional bequeathing of those thoughts is also dissipating.

Contrast this with the life of a practicing Christian. And I am not talking the extremists here, but the average middle of the road guy. Their practices follow a certain structurse and pattern, they can count on. The priest has a sermon, and depending on the context will discuss various issues of interest. In a church there will be ritualized singing, holding of hands, and other expressions showing an element of commitment to the congregation. The church becomes the center of socialization, charitable events, and the place to reach out to in time of distress. In all, a church going Christian has a support group which starts with the spiritual needs, and also reaches out to social and material needs.

And this pattern holds true in big cities, and among busy professionals too. They may not go to the church every Sunday, but their sense of attachement remains intact; more importantly it is passed on to the younger generation.

As we have discussed here before, one reason this model works is that the degree of freedoms of thoughts are a lot more restricted. This may not appeal to the pure Dharmic, who does not want his freedom to manage his relationship with God to be lost.

However, on a practical level, the system offers enough to fulfill the needs of the modern man who has always short on time. While we as Dharmics love our freedom to think beyond what the book may say, in practice, how much time, energy, and a supportive eco-system do we have where such endeavors of self-discovery can thrive?

While efforts by gurus like Sri Sri Ravi Shankar help bring spirituality to day to day life, there are still a vast number of people whose spiritual growth and needs remain unaddressed.

I seriously feel that there is a need for what I am forced to call "dharma in a bottle", a mechanism to get dharma in the daily lives of individuals, beyond the rituals, and into the philosophy behind them. It needs to back to the roots, the knowledge and wisdom in the Vedas, the Puranas; beyond just the stories of the Ramayana or the Mahabharata.

The underlying philosophical moorings behind Dharma needs to be organized & packaged to make it accessible and relevant to modern life-style. I feel the need for some form of "canonicalization" which provides some structure and order, while allowing the space for further discovery. These could be based upon the works of thinkers like Saraswati, or other philosophers.

Thanks to means of modern communication, the lack of congregational structure is no longer a major barrier when it comes to dissipation, and discussion of ideas.

I suspect that there is already material out there which cover what I want. But what I am looking for is something which is specifically packaged into sessions (say 30-40 minutes) with questions for discussions. Something I could use to form something like a "Sunday School". It also needs to be age-appropriate (say something for less than 8 years old, for 8-14s, and the adults). Age appropriateness comes both from the nature of the content, how it is presented, and what thoughts do we want to develop.

Thoughts, Suggestions?

[Atri]

Vikram ji,

this entire model of life which we practice is based on judeo-christian theology. This includes the concept of "weekend" which is in fact the prayer days specified in Judeo-Christian tradition. The whole idea that God created the world in 6 days and he rested on 7th and that God created man in his image, expects man to work for 6 days and rest on seventh when he can find time to do all the activities you mentioned in your post that a middle of the road, regular Christian does. While this lifestyle comes natural to a Christian, for a dharmik this is not natural. We too modified our behavior and started going to temple or started doing religious activities on weekends.

But what we have forgotten is the fundamental difference between a Hindu (or Indic) temple and abrahmic worship-place. The concept of "Darshana" is different from attending mass OR offering namaz on friday. We go to temple to "meet" the deity. The deities have big eyes (usually lidless) because they are supposed to "see" us. Not only theologically but also legally, a temple is "home" of devata. When we go to meet the deity, the deity also meets us. There is no special difference between the manner in which we meet people and manner in which we meet the devata. We do normal "Namaskar" to both. Yes, it becomes more elaborate in temple and some people at times over do the namaskaram to the deity; but that is their choice and feeling.

All this is strictly personal. Nothing social OR communal in Indic concept of Darshana (seeing).

Furthermore, every family has its own kuladevata. Every person has his own "Ishta Devata" (personal favourable deity). People forget what they have in their home and try to find peace outside. And the modern lifestyle based on judeo-christian theology, allows them to "find peace" only once a week. Hence all these distortions. MKG was right. Graama-Swarajya is the highway which would inevitably lead to Dharma-Sthapana.

What Sunday mass achieves weekly, the keertana and Pravachana in the evening on chaupal near every small temple here and there, achieved daily. Now, we struggle and work so hard to "create and sustain" our world for six days, that it becomes difficult to bring someone out of home on seventh. But this is only half-truth.

Severe life-style tend to ease a bit as person settles. I find so many families coming to a nearby mall and spend almost entire day (at times two days) there. Women do not have to cook, kids play around and do not bother parents, there are some games and of course films. Mall is modern Indian "Jatra" or "Melaa". For good OR for bad, this melaa happens every day, but on weekend it blooms even more.

Melaa too was place for keertanas and pravachanas. The mall owners should be convinced that keertankar people, people who talk on history, culture, philosophy in a manner which could keep children and grown-ups glued to their seats, be allowed to "perform". I saw so many malls celebrating Christmas. Ok, good enough. Why not celebrate Sankranti? Is there any dearth of festivals in Dharma? Furthermore, every individual has to undergo 15 sanskaras in his lifetime (16th is funeral, hence not applicable). These 15 occasions are events to be celebrated. Why not start celebrating these occasions? in communal place like Mall or park.

To change the bigger picture, we need to achieve reverse migration and implement the model of "village autonomy" (Graama-Svarajya) in a manner which is coherent with current times. To begin with, every village must have access to electricity, broadband internet, roads, water 24x7. There is no need for central planning. There are many village models where villages can provide for their own energy needs and water. Once this is done and people start migrating to village, the keertans and darshan will start getting back its original meaning. While it is true that percentage of population dependent on agriculture in our economy has to reduce, this does not mean that those who have given up agriculture should migrate to cities. There are ways to keep a non-farming guy in village. That is separate issue and will be OT here.

What a mango-man can do in current set up, primarily is use these "mela" instincts of Hindus for their counselling and propagation of Dharma. Mall-owners are dharmik enough to allow this. What is needed is men and women who could talk coherently and explain people what dharma is.

[VikramS]

Atriji:

I am glad you responded.

As human society and behavior evolves, so will the means used to propagate dharma.

India is becoming more urbanized. Like the West, people will spend time more time working and commuting than engaging in philosophical discourse. However unlike the past, physical proximity is not required to present, discuss and evaluate ideas. My wife puts on self-help CDs will driving. Most younger ones put on listen to podcasts.

How do we bring the spirit of dharma and the logic and reasoning behind it to the mango person who no longer lives in the classic village model?

While I agree that praying on Sunday etc. are all Western constructs, the fact remains that they are a lot more compatible with modern life-style.

I do not have any problems in admitting that until I made an effort I too was disconnected with the philosophy behind our dharmic beliefs. Most of my peers have some understanding but very few can talk for more than a few minutes. Neither can I.

On the social side of things, there is very little to participate in as a congregation. Even satsangs in India do not really go into great depth; most of time is spent singing songs or discussion of some dharmic story.

In a way, dharma for the masses, has been dumbed down to praying to your favorite god or devata for blessings, asking for forgiveness, and requesting success.

Then there a variety of sadhus and holy men who profess connection with the almighty. I know of one person who just gave $15000 to a pandit who she talked to when she was in distress regarding some personal problem. And this was a good chunk of her annual income.

We have to face that fact that when it comes to fulfilling the spiritual, social and religious needs of the mango man, the organized religions do a much, much better job.

The challenge we dharmics face is two folds:
(1) Much of our philosophy and the meaning behind the dharmic system takes time to interpret, understand and explain. It is even tougher when we are living in a non-dharmic setting.
(2) A lot of the practice of dharma has been reduced to a set of rituals, or the patronage of gurus, not all of whom measure up to the standards I would like.

We have the opportunity today to harness technology to overcome the lack of organizational structure which hinders dharma. We need to grab this chance, to make people understand the ideas, motivation, and the philosophy behind our rituals. Unless we do that, we stand vulnerable to accusations of meaningless idol worship.

We have to take the spirit behind dharma, and pack it in a bottle for the masses. The competition is competitive, very well organized, very well funded and often ruthless. We can no longer count on what was.

[johneeG]

Vikram S saar,
it is a modern myth that Hinduism offers 'freedom' as opposed to 'organized religions'. Mostly this myth has been created during the brit-ruling time(but may have its roots in islamic-rule time). Hindus have lapped up this myth and tried to spin this as a positive about Hinduism.

The fact is that traditional Hinduism(Sanatana Dharma) is fairly 'organized' and 'restricted'. It has rules on every aspect of life: eating, sleeping, bathing, mating, talking, ...etc. So, there is no freedom from social perspective in Hinduism. Most of what modern day Hindus do, is prohibited by Hinduism.

In fact, the 'organized religions' are simply aping Hinduism, nothing more. All other religions are simply a distorted sub-sets of Hinduism. Most of the time, these religions glorify themselves and attack Hinduism. Invariably, they attack those parts of Hinduism that differ from them. Sometimes, their narrative gains upper-hand. When that happens, Hindus also shun those parts of Hinduism that are under attack and instead take to those parts of Hinduism that are similar to the attacking religion. The strength of Hinduism is that it is the whole set, comprehensive. So, no religion can ever attack it in its complete avatar without invalidating the concepts of its own religion. But, too much emphasis on one aspect can lead to harm, socially and spiritually. Most of the time, when Hinduism gets to emphatic about one aspect, then society throws up a 'reformer'(spiritual or social) to balance out things. This inherent mechanism is absent in other religions. Other religions are created based on a single core concept. This single concept is sought to be applied to everyone regardless of it suitability and applicability. Any attempts to reform lead to creation of new sects, which ultimately leads to sectarian violence.

But, one must confuse this difference to mean that Hinduism is somehow not 'draconian' about the rules. Hinduism like anyother religion is quite insistent on rules. In fact, Hinduism insists on so many rules and regulations that one would find other religions to be much more relaxed and easy going. The only 'freedom' Hinduism provides as opposed to other creeds is 'freedom' to choose between various forms of Gods/Goddesses. 'Freedom' to practice one of the prescribed spiritual methods(like Bhakti, Karma, or Gyana). It is a limited spiritual freedom. This aspect is lacking in other religions. Other religions give lot of freedom in social interactions(atleast, initially), but have no freedom in matters of spirituality. Hinduism, on the other hand, gives very little freedom in social interactions, but provides a lot of leeway in spiritual matters. Most of the religions are primarily motivated by 'conversion'. They tend to accept any social behaviour(atleast, initially), as long as 'conversion' is part of the parcel. On the other hand, Hinduism is insistent on rules and regulations(social and spiritual).

I think the greatest coup against Hinduism has been taking temple out of people's lives. This has been one of the greatest successes of foreign rule(direct and indirect) apart from the lack of Sanskrit knowledge(and thus dependent on the colonial version of the Hindu texts instead of directly referring to the originals).

Anyway, people going to temples on special days(like birthdays, anniversaries...etc), festivals, weekends, ...etc is good thing. Its a good start. The most important point in practicing dharma is: Yathashakti...'as much as you can'.

Go to temples, as much as you can. If you can afford to go to a temple, only on weekends, then there is no problem whatsoever. But, one must not flunk it completely. Similarly, daily daiva pooja... One can perform it in a very short manner(say 10min). But, one must not completely shun it. Similarly, all other dharmas must be practiced as much as one can. Slowly, one will gain more interest and ability to perform that dharma in a more comprehensive manner. But, if one completely avoids it, then that person will become and more and more alienated from dharma.

The first point about practicing dharma is: Shravana...'listening'. People have to listen to the knowers of dharma to know what is dharma and what is adharma. It is the first step. Practicing what has been said is a secondary step. One must first know what to practice and what not to practice. The biggest problem is the confusion of what is dharma and what is adharma. Most people lack elementary knowledge of Hinduism and argue against core points of Hinduism and yet insist that they are 'Hindus' inspite of it. For example, beef. Cow slaughter, eating the cow meet,...etc are prohibited in Hinduism. Any worthwhile pandit on Hinduism will clear this matter. But, there are many(so-called sophisticated modern-day Hindus) who will argue against it. They lack elementary understanding of Hinduism.

Therefore, the first step is for people to know. The modern tech provides a great opportunity in propagating this knowledge. Internet, mobile, cd-dvd in cars, TV, radios...etc. People can listen to good pravachans by traditional scholars. And this can be easily fitted into a fast-paced life. Because, one can listen to these pravachans while traveling, cooking, eating,...etc. Just as one can listen to songs, one can listen to pravachans. This is a great facility provided by the technology. Earlier, one had to be physically present to listen to a pravachan. Today, that need not be the case. There are also many good books in all languages by great many scholars explaining Hinduism. One can take aid of those books.

Pravachans are also called Sat-sang. Sat-sang is the first step in dharmic evolution of a person.

Once a person gets to know the dharma, then he can start practicing it(yathashakti). Slowly, he graduates on this path. This is the general method. A general caution would be that people should be careful in gaining their knowledge from traditional sources as much as possible. The non-traditional sources are generally tainted(in one way or the other).

The problem is that people are not interested in listening to a traditional discourse. There is a certain contempt(particularly among the young). It is seen as a pastime of old people. This is a very firm barrier. Sushuptiji posted a video of Sri Ravishankar where he touches on how bollywood villianizes the Hindu marks(like Tika, shika,...etc). Bollywood, media, and other such avenues ridicule Hindu icons and glorify the western icons. This has an impact on the people(particularly the youth). So, the young people, in an effort to appear hip and happening become deracinated.

This is where parents come in. If parents can instill respect for Hinduism(and their ancestors) in their children, then that would be enough. But, the problem is that parents themselves are deracinated. The parents themselves teach their children that 'all religions are equal equal' and discourage their children from taking any kind of spiritual interest. So, whats the result? Increase in old-age-homes... increase in divorce cases... These parents are thrown in old-age-homes, once they become old and feeble. The couple separates for silly reasons. When, one is looking for instant gratification, then why should one worry about preserving marriage or caring for old parents?! And I have not mentioned addictions(drug, cigarette, drinking...etc) This is the state of affairs.

So, the parents must understand this and instill values in their children along with respect for their own culture. This is like planting a seed. Later, the seed can grow into a great tree. But, if no seed is planted, then there won't be a tree.

For that, parents(adults) themselves have to learn dharma and practice it. Because, preaching without practicing is not going to impress anyone. So, parents will have to learn about dharma from a proper traditional source(maybe a pravachan), then practice it and finally, pass it on to their off-springs. This is the proper method. Sampradaya...

[member_23686]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-schr ... 86099.html?

The God Project: Hinduism as Open-Source Faith

Trying to explain the core beliefs of "Hinduism" to an interested observer can be challenging to say the least. Its often stated that the word "Hinduism" itself is a total misnomer, as it basically refers to the sum total of spiritual and religious thought and practice that has taken place on the Indian subcontinent over the past 5,000 years. And lets just say it's been a busy 5,000 years.

The sheer volume of spiritual literature and doctrine, the number of distinct gods worshiped (over 30 million, according to some sources), the breadth of distinct philosophies and practices that have emerged, and the total transformation over time of many of the core Indic teachings and beliefs can be disconcerting to those raised in monotheistic cultures, as we are used to each faith bringing with it a defined set of beliefs that -- with the exception of some denominational rifts over the centuries -- stay pretty much consistent over time.

However, the key point of differentiation between Hinduism and these other faiths is not polytheism vs. monotheism. The key differentiation is that "Hinduism" is Open Source and most other faiths are Closed Source.

"Open source is an approach to the design, development, and distribution of software, offering practical accessibility to a software's source code."

If we consider god, the concept of god, the practices that lead one to god, and the ideas, thoughts and philosophies around the nature of the human mind the source code, then India has been the place where the doors have been thrown wide open and the coders have been given free reign to craft, invent, reinvent, refine, imagine, and re-imagine to the point that literally every variety of the spiritual and cognitive experience has been explored, celebrated, and documented.

Atheists and goddess worshipers, heretics who've sought god through booze, sex, and meat, ash covered hermits, dualists and non-dualists, nihilists and hedonists, poets and singers, students and saints, children and outcasts ... all have contributed their lines of code to the Hindu string.

The results of India's God Project -- as I like to refer to Hinduism -- have been absolutely staggering. The body of knowledge -- scientific, faith-based, and experience-based -- that has been accrued on the nature of mind, consciousness, and human behavior, and the number of practical methods that have been specifically identified to work with ones own mind are without compare. The Sanskrit language itself contains a massive lexicon of words -- far more than any other historic or modern language -- that deal specifically with states of mental cognition, perception, awareness, and behavioral psychology.

At the heart of the Indic source code are the Vedas, which immediately establish the primacy of inquiry in Indic thought. In the Rig Veda, the oldest of all Hindu texts (and possibly the oldest of all spiritual texts on the planet), God, or Prajapati, is summarized as one big mysterious question and we the people are basically invited to answer it.

"Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?"

While the god of the Old Testament was shouting command(ment)s, Prajapati was asking: "Who am I?"

Since opening the floodgates on the divine question, Indic thought has followed a glorious evolutionary arc from shamanism, nature worship and sacrifice through sublime and complex theories on mental cognition, the nature of consciousness, and quantum physics.

Through tracing the subcontinents relationship with the deities of the Vedas, we can trace the course of Indic thought over the centuries. One of the first things we notice is that not only does the people's relationship to god change over the centuries, the gods themselves change. Shiva, for example, appears in the vedas as Rudra, the howler, god of storms, still something of a lesser deity. Reappearing over the centuries as Bhairava -- he who inspires fear -- Pashupati, lord of beasts, the god of yogis, and the destroyer, Shiva finally, by the 9th century, achieves status in Kashmir as the fundamental energetic building block of the entire universe. Neat trick.

But as much as the gods change and the evolution of Indic thought leads us to increasingly modern and post-modern views of the nature of reality, the old Vedic codes still remain front and center. One of Hinduism's defining factors is that the historic view of god, the nature worship and shamanism, never went away, so that god as currently worshiped exists simultaneously as symbol and archetype as well as literal embodiment. That Shiva, for instance, could simultaneously be the light of ultimate consciousness and an ash-smeared madman who frequents cremation grounds is a delight to us spiritual anarchists, while mind numbing to most western Theologists.

Western and Middle Eastern monotheistic faiths have simply not allowed such liberal interpretation of their God. They continue to exist as closed source systems.

"Generally, [closed source] means only the binaries of a computer program are distributed and the license provides no access to the program's source code. The source code of such programs might be regarded as a trade secret of the company."

One of the defining facts of Christian history is that access to God has been viewed -- as in most closed source systems -- as a trade secret. The ability to reinterpret the bible, or the teachings of Christ, or the Old Testament, or to challenge the basic fundamental authority of the church has been nonexistent for most of the church's history. Those who dared to do so were quite often killed.

In Indic thought, there is no trade secret. The foundation of yoga is that the key to god, or the macrocosm, or the absolute ... lies within the individual and can be accessed through a certain set of practices. It's a beautifully simple but ultimately profound concept that has been allowed to flourish unchecked for millennia. The process of discovering and re-imagining the divine is in your hands. The God Project.

nice article but jingo inside me thinks that this is a plot to take away our "source code" as "human heritage" while denying us any credit.

[Atri]

It is indeed human heritage. Dharma cannot be confined to India. When dharma was confined to India, what happened 1000 years ago, would happen again. For our own sake at least, dharma should be made human heritage. कृण्वन्तो विश्वं आर्यं अपघ्नन्तो अराव्णः Civilize the world by destroying the non-liberal ones...

Closed source systems are real Asuras and AraavNa (अराव्ण) here which needs to be destroyed..

[ShauryaT]

We have to take the spirit behind dharma, and pack it in a bottle for the masses. The competition is competitive, very well organized, very well funded and often ruthless. We can no longer count on what was.

VikramS: I run such a sunday school for Kids in Massaland and have had to compile my own materials for exactly the above purpose. It is still a WIP and takes time to modify, revise and articulate. The model I have chosen is the Jewish model. One of the major issues that I see for us living in the US is this fear that the next generation will simply wither away their "cultural roots" and be assimilated into mainstream culture minus a knowledge of this ideological core. The core that makes us different. If this aspect is not understood and practiced, my kids or their kids after will be assimilated - in a cultural ideological sense. We have precedence to prove this point. The Carribbean Indian community, who migrated over a century back - and these are unqualified numbers - upto 50% are intermarrying and no longer consider themselves Hindus. This is inspite of a large coherent community that migrated with most from the northern plains. The US is a master of this assimilation process and has me worried. This is where I find the Jewish model worth replicating. These people moved out from their homelands in Israel to diverse parts of the world but did a few things, which maintained their ideological core. They lived in communities and practiced their ideology. They assimilated the external elements like language, clothes, food but were able to preserve enough of their core. When their disparate existence was threatened, they could go back and resurrect even the language that was long dead, as the core ideas and rituals and the meaning of these practices were largely preserved. They made a science of the idea of not assimilating - at least not the core.

So, learning from that model, instead of focusing on literally 8 million stories we have, we focus on a few ideas and use stories as reinforcement. For very young kids we use our puraans extensively as it is still the best way to get them familiarized. But kids 10 and up, we go to more of a theoretical model and what makes for "living" a hindu life. The biggest hurdle we have found is not the kids, who can grasp and understand - it is the parents. Their innate fear is the kids are learning it "too deep". In reality, the parents who come from various parts of India themselves do not know, just like i did not a few years back - what is the Hindu idea all about? Why is it worth preserving? What is different? Etc. But teaching parents is like teaching an old dog new tricks, it is a little more hard but can be done, if there is will.

The results are encouraging. We celebrate all our key festivals together as a community making necessary adjustments for the land we live in. Do not need to go to a temple (there are many around) as every Sunday is a visit to a temple with prayers, yoga and a lecture + activities.

How to solve a deracinated parent's viewpoints of go to a temple, sing some bhajans, eat good food, celebrate some festivals in the most outward manner, wear nice clothes, dance to indian music or maybe even learn some classical dance form and that is what "culture" is limited to them - remains my biggest challenge. Making it more "fun" and not "serious" is one of my key challenges. Doing all of this and compete with kids sports, video games, greek myths and the all pervading American culture continues to be "more" of a priority than a "sunday" school. It is not the kids, it is the parents, who also have to appreciate the "importance" of it.

Thought I will share.

Added: I see very similar issues in India with the only advantage being that the eco-system is not as foreign. But the near complete lack of "living" the idea of a Hindu life is missing - even in India - unless your family is steeped into its mores but society is certainly not! Something that takes a huge ding on the Hindu way of life is the general state of socio-economic-political life and governance standards in India as compared to the west. So, I am constantly hard pressed to defend the indefensible - such as the treatment to women, corruption, unhygienic behaviors and what not. It is a tall order to explain all of this to kids, when we ourselves have voted with our feet and transported out.

[vishvak]

For concern such as 'the next generation', I was told that some Dharmic facets of life have been introduced in generation by generation basis as well.

[VikramS]

ShauryaT:

Thanks a lot for sharing that perspective. You have articulated it much better.

The experience of the Jews and of the people in the West Indies is worth learning from.

It would be wonderful if the material you are compiling could be shared.

It needs to be repackaged into a curriculum type structure which people can follow.

In some ways, I understand the role of the Brahmin now. There is so much material, so many different thoughts, that I have my doubts how any mango man, could assimilate everything. Hence the need for the special class of people whose job was to preserve and grow that heritage.

Unfortunately when it comes to transmitting that knowledge to the mango man, too many layers of rituals have been added which hide the original meaning. The tales, stories and life-study of different characters of our heritage does help in offering a broad mosaic, but it leaves a lot of gaps.

The Xtians too have a lot of literature from the old testament, to the four gospels, to the tens of others which were buried/destoryed and are now being rediscovered. Good or bad the canonicalization of their faith has allowed them to spread it in a focussed manner.

Ask ten dharmics what his religion is about you will get ten different answers. As Rajiv Malhotra says, many practical aspects of our lifestyle are being assimilated into the West without giving credit to them. That will continue until the dharmics can articulate their vision with confidence, and retain ownership of their IP.

Share, but brand.

[Agnimitra]

ShauryaT ji, good post overall. I have a comment on one point:

The Carribbean Indian community, who migrated over a century back - and these are unqualified numbers - upto 50% are intermarrying and no longer consider themselves Hindus. This is inspite of a large coherent community that migrated with most from the northern plains. The US is a master of this assimilation process and has me worried. This is where I find the Jewish model worth replicating.

How did intermarriage become linked to an unqualified threat to Hindu identity? Because ideology, culture and civilization became subservient to ethnic identity. Instead, if there was an ideological system that allowed ethnic identities to become subservient parts of a dharmic mosaic, then intermarriage would not post a threat, and may even become desirable in some cases (and undesirable in some other cases).

The Jewish community has survived, but at what cost and which of their methods were the most effective? Please note that the dominant Jewish ethnicity in the state of Israel comes from people like the Khazars - a non-Jewish ethnicity that was converted to Judaism wholesale when they conquered and established a state in Eastern Europe. After ideological conversion, they were acculturated by education as well as some intermarriage with existing ethnic Jews. SUCH methods have yielded gains for survival and expansion. OTOH, in the US today where Judaism mainly retains another policy of discouraging conversion or at least not being enthusiastic missionaries, the fact is that they mourn as much as Hindus that 50% of ethnic Jews are non-practicing, or have converted to other faiths.

So clearly, merely having a "brahminical" core, a community structure, and keeping traditions alive is NOT enough. Rather, a living civilization must expand in order to survive, especially when it is at this level of danger. Therefore, when you teach the children the ideas, make sure to let them know that this is for all of humanity, and that they must not only acculturate themselves and achieve its goals in self-actualization, but also serve the Veda by helping whoever else is ready to partake of it. This is a fundamental change in mindset.

Intermarriage, absorption of foreign ideas and lifestyles, etc cannot be stopped. Rather, in order to keep dharma alive, a counter-wave must be released to neutralize, harmonize with, or modulate these waves that the world inevitably sends towards you. Thus, cultural wizardry along with ideological agility and an expansive communal mindset are necessary to reap the benefits of all-inclusiveness while also maintaining the integrity of Dharma. Whence the quote that Atri ji used above - kRNvantO vishwaM Aryam apaghnantO 'rAvNaH.

[ShauryaT]

The intermarriage thing is an example. Examples are in context. If inter-marriage was a route to expand the fold of dharmics then it is welcome. However, from what I have seen inter-marriage in that specific community is more a way out of the SD path. The example was to illustrate how "culture" "rituals" "practices" alone would not save us minus an understanding and sustenance of the ideological core.

The Jewish example was not to say, that it is perfect and long stays will not lead to some assimilation. However, cannot deny the fact that they were largely successful in keeping their ideas alive. These are broad stroke examples, within them you will find exceptions.

Quite frankly: I am not confident that SD has developed its core to a degree that we can think of expansion. My understanding is we have some very specific issues or weaknesses that need to be addressed: Here is Ram Swarup on the matter.

1. Hinduism faces some grave problems that need serious attention:

(a) it lacks ideological cohesiveness;

(b) it lack leadership. Its elites are becoming illiterate about their spiritual heritage and history and indifferent about their future destiny;

(c) it is weak organizationally. Its has no recognized centres where it could take stock of its sorry situation and think of remedial measures;

(d) it is poor financially. Great poverty has overtaken its religious institutions. Most of its temples are in a state of near-destitution. Its religious priests and ârchâryas (scholars) have hardly any prestige left and they are badly neglected;

(e) Hindu society is badly divided into castes and denominations. Once when Hinduism was spiritually vibrant and politically strong, these divisions expressed natural, and healthy diversity; but now in its present weak state, they are used by its enemies for its disintegration. Election politics is being utilized for the dismemberment of the great Hindu society;

(f) Hinduism is ceasing to be a practising religion. Awareness of a larger God-life is becoming dim; worship, studies, sâdhanâ, japa, spiritual meditation and reflection are fast declining.

In short, it is a situation painful for the lovers of Hinduism and pleasing for its enemies.

VikramS: I will compile my materials and send it to you, but it will take some time. Please ping me at t dot shaurya at gchacha. Thanks.