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Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2012 10:49

French have a point
- it is a french product
- they have to offer some offsets
- HAL has no inputs to offer on the rafale
- IAF is the user
- we the taxpayer are paying for it

so should HAL by default get to make everything we buy? they for sure will not make anything cheaper than a competing player, and likely will delay more and cost more.

let them prove it with a good Tejas production line, to impart confidence in making the AMCA serially.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 15 Dec 2012 11:32

agree Singhaji.

But our babus will want everything for a PSU.

I would think the tender is not clear on this aspect:

a) That all ToT to HAL
b) The 50% offsets are separate from this ToT

Rather tricky situation.

However, it is time that the Babus and HAL recognise that HAL is overloaded and like they are farming out LRUs and the new radome, for the Tejas, to private players, certain critical items can remain in the purview of HAL, and the rest with pvt. players. This would be a good boost for our manufacturing capabilities, across a broader more efficient manufacturing base.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2012 11:37

in telecom sector there is some rule that whenever BSNL orders some gear, ITI gets to manufacture the local part or ITI (and its foreign jamais like alcalu or nokia-siemens) is guaranteed some % of the order.
that way the telecom biggies who are in bed with ITI always get some guaranteed deals.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 15 Dec 2012 11:54

Singha wrote:French have a point


The only point of French is how much they can dry us out while giving little or no technology, they are no holy cows who have goodwill for us in there hearts.

Singha wrote:so should HAL by default get to make everything we buy? they for sure will not make anything cheaper than a competing player, and likely will delay more and cost more.

let them prove it with a good Tejas production line, to impart confidence in making the AMCA serially.


LCA has no bearing on the MMRCA and vice versa both are different projects and which competing player are you talking about who can compete with HAL ???

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2012 11:59

but the MMRCA was supposed to give us technology on how to manufacture to finer tolerances and getting ready for the AMCA.

if Dassault can make someone do the rafale in india to spec and to cost, why not let them try?

if it fails, HAL is always there. let dassault make a call on who can do what rather than imposing HAL 100% on them ?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 15 Dec 2012 12:10

Singha wrote:but the MMRCA was supposed to give us technology on how to manufacture to finer tolerances and getting ready for the AMCA.


That's right sir "supposed" no one knows how much technology is going to be transferred and be sure whatever will be transferred will be B grade technology no country how much you pay will ever part away with it's A grade stuff.

Singha wrote:if Dassault can make someone do the rafale in india to spec and to cost, why not let them try?


Who the hell is Dassault to decide what is good for us?? Why shall we let them lecture us what we have to do or not ?? Dassault should be clearly made to do things as we wish and not what they want because what they want is not in sync with what we aspire to get from this project.

Singha wrote:if it fails, HAL is always there. let dassault make a call on who can do what rather than imposing HAL 100% on them ?


Again sir we are the customer and only we will decide what is good for us don't trust Dassault on it or they will take you for a ride and wouldn't going in for an alternative which has a high probability to fail or delay and then coming back to HAL will further delay our acquisition plan ???

Thinking of which I think Dassault wants the same as it will be profitable to them in long term than to us. The project will be delayed, costs will rise, more arm twisting, tech denial, destabilising Indian mil-ind complex are some of the consequences we will have to face if we allow Dassault to take the drivers seat.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kersi D » 15 Dec 2012 12:56

vina wrote:.. Not like a Jaguar whose only protection against an A2A threat will be passive like Chaff/Flare, a Rafale...


Vina Sir, Jaguar carries 2 AAMs on overwing pylons

K

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Eric Leiderman » 15 Dec 2012 13:16

Relaince will get the talent they knew zilch about petro chemicals, they were a downstream user of a petrochemical product 20 years later look where they are. Ditto with hospitals, I can go on.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 15 Dec 2012 13:29

Sagar G wrote:That's right sir "supposed" no one knows how much technology is going to be transferred and be sure whatever will be transferred will be B grade technology no country how much you pay will ever part away with it's A grade stuff.


But Sir if A grade tech is not what we will be getting then the basic premise of MMRCA deal with the aim to enhance India's aviation technology stands in serious doubt

Further my understanding is that for any Indian company (apart from HAL [thats our only option currently :oops: ]) who wants to be interested in Rafale manufacture should be allowed to do so only if they have some prior experience in this domain. Like in case of shipbuilding where we now hear DCNS acquiring stake in Pipavav defence. In this way the Indian company will be in a better position to quickly absorb and retain tech and later on further innovate on these tech thus enhance Indian aviation tech on the whole

Having a newcomer getting a large portion of the manufacturing will ensure that Dassault have more control on the kind of tech being transferred and probably this could be one of the reason for their insistence on deciding who gets what to manufacture

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 15 Dec 2012 13:47

dhiraj wrote:But Sir if A grade tech is not what we will be getting then the basic premise of MMRCA deal with the aim to enhance India's aviation technology stands in serious doubt


That's the reality no one parts away with the knowledge of their cutting edge stuff. "A" grade technology is what you make yourself even if it is bettered by someone else but you don't know how he did it but you can keep playing with your technology till the day you are the one who is making A grade tech and others are salivating for it. The sooner this realization comes in IA and IAF the better it will be for them and India. IN in this regard is light years ahead from the other two services.

dhiraj wrote:Further my understanding is that for any Indian company (apart from HAL [thats our only option currently :oops: ]) who wants to be interested in Rafale manufacture should be allowed to do so only if they have some prior experience in this domain.


Exactly, who has prior experience in this domain other than HAL ??? Pvt. companies can start today and a decade or two later they might be in a situation where they can play a big role in aerospace sector till then HAL is the king.

dhiraj wrote:Having a newcomer getting a large portion of the manufacturing will ensure that Dassault have more control on the kind of tech being transferred and probably this could be one of the reason for their insistence on deciding who gets what to manufacture


See Dasault wants to give you this _|_ and wants in exchange $$$$ so stop thinking about what Dassault wants and start thinking about what we want and how we can get that according to the way we want and not by dancing on Dassault tunes.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 15 Dec 2012 19:51

Sagar G wrote:Exactly, who has prior experience in this domain other than HAL ??? Pvt. companies can start today and a decade or two later they might be in a situation where they can play a big role in aerospace sector till then HAL is the king.


How will other companies ever develop if they are never given a chance?

If you want to be in this same position 50 years from now, moaning about how slow and incompetent HAL is, by all means continue handing them everything whether they deserve it or not.

dhiraj wrote:See Dasault wants to give you this _|_ and wants in exchange $$$$ so stop thinking about what Dassault wants and start thinking about what we want and how we can get that according to the way we want and not by dancing on Dassault tunes.


I see it as Dassault is interested in working with a company that is actually motivated and interested in working with them, a true partner.

This could be the best thing to ever happen to the Indian aviation industry.

This is a tremendous opportunity to develop some true competition and shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of HAL.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 15 Dec 2012 20:29

^^^
Agreed George.

Whilst we complain about HAL, and some of the points are also valid. The recent criticism about the LCA manufacturing, and also if I remember correctly, HAL delayed in submitting the plans for the Rafale production.

But when it comes to change, then we are scared, even to test the waters.

I would go about it this way:
a) The ToT, regardless of who make the different components is also the property of GoI which has the inexclusive rights to produce it.
(I wouldn't debate here, what Class A or class B any manufacturer ToT would supply us or how we would feel like stuck pigs, paying atrocious sums of money etc., because it detracts from the goal of uprating our airwar capabilities which is of pressing need.)

b) With the caveat that HAL would also be involved with whatever company manufactures these components, as an offset, on the shop floor, so it is a seamless operation, where HAL can look at these companies as an extension of its manufacturing umbrella.

This way, it maybe seen as a half step by some, but neverthless, a positive step forward, to kick start this project without any further delay.

And may actually result in a viable, public-private partnership and assist HAL in imbibing manufacturing concepts and management practises which it seems to have isolated itself from, compared to its heydays in the 80/90's.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 15 Dec 2012 21:19

rajanb wrote:a) The ToT, regardless of who make the different components is also the property of GoI which has the inexclusive rights to produce it.


Agreed.

rajanb wrote:b) With the caveat that HAL would also be involved with whatever company manufactures these components, as an offset, on the shop floor, so it is a seamless operation, where HAL can look at these companies as an extension of its manufacturing umbrella.


I wouldn't give HAL anything. If Reliant or whoever feels HAL is the best choice for something, fine, but let HAL compete for it.

If they want their finger in the pie, let them EARN it.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 16 Dec 2012 12:12

GeorgeWelch wrote:How will other companies ever develop if they are never given a chance?


I am all for developing a competitor of HAL but why shall I get dictated on how to do it by a foreign company ??? They are not interested in developing an aerospace industry here which in future can very much compete with themselves.

GeorgeWelch wrote:If you want to be in this same position 50 years from now, moaning about how slow and incompetent HAL is, by all means continue handing them everything whether they deserve it or not.


For the time being HAL has no competitor in Indian market so we like it or not they have to handed over things. A start can be made but it will take decades before a proper competitor of HAL comes online. Even in that process HAL has to play the role of a big brother.

GeorgeWelch wrote:I see it as Dassault is interested in working with a company that is actually motivated and interested in working with them, a true partner.


I see this as an attempt by Dassault to stall the Indian aerospace sector rise by trying to lecture us what and how things should be done. India is the customer and Dassault the service provider, we have the right to lecture them and not the other way around. French economy badly needs the money and I want India to give it to them only when we have extracted out pound of flesh i.e. the technologies we want. So I am not exactly thrilled by Dassault trying to act as the big brother here.

GeorgeWelch wrote:This could be the best thing to ever happen to the Indian aviation industry.


Only when it gets done the way India wants, Dassault can lecture somebody else.

GeorgeWelch wrote:This is a tremendous opportunity to develop some true competition and shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of HAL.


And the competition will be developed eventually but it will take time and proper planning by India for that, Dassaults unwanted lectures aren't going to do that.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 16 Dec 2012 17:29

Sagar G wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:How will other companies ever develop if they are never given a chance?


I am all for developing a competitor of HAL


Then pray tell how will such a competitor develop if you keep feeding everything to HAL?

Sagar G wrote:but why shall I get dictated on how to do it by a foreign company ??? They are not interested in developing an aerospace industry here which in future can very much compete with themselves.


Dassault is required under contract to get a certain number of planes manufactured in India, and if they don't they will face penalties.

Not only that, if they choose an incompetent partner who can't get it's act together, that will just delay orders of French gear that go into the plane and might eventually face cancellation altogether.

Even an entirely 'Indian-built' plane will have tons of French content.

Clearly it is in Dassault's interest to make this work as quickly and as efficiently as possible.


Sagar G wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:If you want to be in this same position 50 years from now, moaning about how slow and incompetent HAL is, by all means continue handing them everything whether they deserve it or not.


For the time being HAL has no competitor in Indian market


No competitor at doing what? Bolting together vendor-provided assemblies? Do you seriously doubt that Reliance can bolt together assemblies at least as well as HAL?

Sagar G wrote:so we like it or not they have to handed over things.


This is precisely the sort of thinking that's going to get you stuck with HAL for another 50 years.

Sagar G wrote:A start can be made but it will take decades before a proper competitor of HAL comes online.


I'm sorry, but the level of 'manufacture' HAL has achieved does not take decades to achieve.

Sagar G wrote:Even in that process HAL has to play the role of a big brother.


No, just no. I wouldn't want HAL in any sort of position of authority.

You just talked about how Dassault doesn't want a competitor, which is laughable considering the expertise they have that does indeed take decades to build up.

No, the company that is truly afraid of a competitor is HAL!

HAL has a pretty sweet gig right now and will do everything in their power to preserve it.

Sagar G wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:I see it as Dassault is interested in working with a company that is actually motivated and interested in working with them, a true partner.


I see this as an attempt by Dassault to stall the Indian aerospace sector rise


How much more stalled can it get?

If that was their intent, they would happily work with HAL who has proven time and again that they can bolt together foreign planes while learning nothing of value from the experience.

Sagar G wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:This could be the best thing to ever happen to the Indian aviation industry.


Only when it gets done the way India wants, Dassault can lecture somebody else.


Does India want to continue to reward HAL for their incompetence and expect nothing better?

Is that what India wants?

Sagar G wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:This is a tremendous opportunity to develop some true competition and shouldn't be sacrificed on the altar of HAL.


And the competition will be developed eventually


Really? What is your plan develop competition 'eventually'?

Sagar G wrote:but it will take time and proper planning by India for that


Here's a plan:
- Bring in a respected industry leader (like say Dassault) to teach aviation expertise to a company that has a lot of capability and is hungry to grow some more, but doesn't necessarily have experience in the sector (like say Reliance)

Brilliant!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2012 18:36

I would like to see a pvt player be system integrator for amca as well. Amca is ada, lrde,bel,nal....hal is just the guy looking to get a plate of rice and meat free at every marriage party under govt patronage.

Looking at their progress on ijt, one can guess how badly they would mess the amca even if we manage to put it together.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 16 Dec 2012 19:03

GeorgeWelch wrote:Then pray tell how will such a competitor develop if you keep feeding everything to HAL?


HAL has already started outsourcing work the next strep would be to set up production lines and R&D houses in partnership with private industry this way slowly they will start developing capabilities which then will reap benefits in future.

GeorgeWelch wrote:Dassault is required under contract to get a certain number of planes manufactured in India, and if they don't they will face penalties.


I am not interested what will be "manufactured" in India seeing the LCA saga has taught me well that all these years we were getting swindled by foreign aerospace giants who took umpteen amounts of $$$ but didn't share a drop of knowledge the lack of which is showing in the LCA. But LCA has been a great learning experience for Indian aerospace industry so days of arm twisting by foreign aerospace companies are numbered.

GeorgeWelch wrote:Not only that, if they choose an incompetent partner who can't get it's act together, that will just delay orders of French gear that go into the plane and might eventually face cancellation altogether.


I am sure cancelling in the middle will help the Indian aerospace industry a lot. You are totally right here.

GeorgeWelch wrote:Even an entirely 'Indian-built' plane will have tons of French content.


Good point, BRFites should read this and ask themselves whether we would really be getting the knowledge of A grade tech with this deal or is it just another glorified screw driver deal ??? Even if we get that knowledge should we allow Dassault to dictate us on who should get it and how ???

GeorgeWelch wrote:Clearly it is in Dassault's interest to make this work as quickly and as efficiently as possible.


Yeah clear as crystal for me whose "interests" Dassault wants to serve.

GeorgeWelch wrote:No competitor at doing what? Bolting together vendor-provided assemblies? Do you seriously doubt that Reliance can bolt together assemblies at least as well as HAL?


Again a very good point just goes on to show that all you wish for Indian aerospace is for them to bolt together assemblies for the rest of there lives. HAL is still doing so because of bad government policies and getting swindled time and again by foreign aerospace giants etc etc. This will only stop when Indian aerospace sector develops the required knowledge base on it's own cause as I said before no country parts away with it's A grade tech and this will exactly be the case with Rafale as well. We will develop these capabilities eventually but certainly India doesn't need Dassault, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Sukhoi etc. to come and lecture what should be done and what not. All these years they have time and again shown there real intent.

GeorgeWelch wrote:This is precisely the sort of thinking that's going to get you stuck with HAL for another 50 years.


Comprehension problem ??? Take a look in what context I made that statement.

GeorgeWelch wrote:I'm sorry, but the level of 'manufacture' HAL has achieved does not take decades to achieve.


That's because the system never tasked HAL to do that and to top it off the disinterest of IAF in seriously backing an indigenous defence aerospace industry so it's not all HAL's fault but as I said before LCA is a great learning experience the knowledge base it is generating will make sure that in future we don't have to look upto any foreign aerospace company for any kind of help. The foreign aerospace companies also weren't interested in sharing the knowledge required to up the level in manufacture all they supplied was screw driver tech and keep screwing us again and again in the name of ToT.


GeorgeWelch wrote:No, just no. I wouldn't want HAL in any sort of position of authority.


What you want or not matters zilch to the decision makers.

GeorgeWelch wrote:You just talked about how Dassault doesn't want a competitor, which is laughable considering the expertise they have that does indeed take decades to build up.


Exactly and that's why they never shared there knowledge and never will because sharing it would mean creating a competitor which is bad for business. Only after toiling hard for decades India will be able to develop the same or better capabilities, no amount of money is going to bring that "expertise" that you are talking about and that's exactly what Dassault or any other foreign aerospace company doesn't want to see happening in India hence all the lecturing about what India should do or not.

GeorgeWelch wrote:No, the company that is truly afraid of a competitor is HAL!


Maybe you are right but the decision makers have decided that HAL needs one.

GeorgeWelch wrote:HAL has a pretty sweet gig right now and will do everything in their power to preserve it.


Too late things are already moving.

GeorgeWelch wrote:How much more stalled can it get?


As much as the foreign companies want if we dance to their tunes.

GeorgeWelch wrote:If that was their intent, they would happily work with HAL who has proven time and again that they can bolt together foreign planes while learning nothing of value from the experience.


Yeah and doing the same thing with pvt. industry will magically make them competent enough to shoulder the burden of Indian aerospace needs. Great logic :lol:

GeorgeWelch wrote:Does India want to continue to reward HAL for their incompetence and expect nothing better?

Is that what India wants?


What India wants India knows very well and as I have said more than once that we don't need foreign aerospace companies to lecture us. They have shown there true colour we know how much sincerity they have towards Indian interests.

GeorgeWelch wrote:Really? What is your plan develop competition 'eventually'?


Read my first reply in this post.

GeorgeWelch wrote:Here's a plan:
- Bring in a respected industry leader (like say Dassault) to teach aviation expertise to a company that has a lot of capability and is hungry to grow some more, but doesn't necessarily have experience in the sector (like say Reliance)

Brilliant!


Oh yeah and I am sure Dassult will follow this plan with all honesty :mrgreen:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 16 Dec 2012 20:12

Both Dassault and Boeing have scoped out HAL and decided it is not a partner they want to rely on for major projects. MoD and GoI have been made aware of this, along with the reasons why and all indications are that they are seeing the light (bona fide miracle). There is no way that Dassault will air its reservations in public without the tacit blessing of the real buyer--the IAF, not HAL or even the MoD. Let's see the response from IAF, MoD and GoI to this public vote of non-confidence in HAL.

Foreign firms know that the Rafale is probably the last major Indian fully imported warplane but they also know that India will remain a major civil and military market for them. The world is moving towards integrated manufacturing blocs and no single country, not even the US, can handle the complexity and cost of future systems. For India, Boeing has chosen Tata and Dassault has chosen Reliance and that's how it will be.

India will emerge from this as a significant player in aerospace within a decade and will get its ToT. I don't see HAL as we know it anywhere in the picture.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 16 Dec 2012 20:19

the first blow was likely to be a C130J production line under Tatas.

HAL has dragged out the rotting carcass of the MTA , put a cloth over it, logged it into the ICU and entered a inpatient into the record to try and head that off.

my feel is IAF wont have any interest in this dead dog and instead push strongly for more C17 and C130J with local assembly , base repair and parts making of C130J....

Russia could be well advised to hedge its bets and seek new 'friends' in India :lol:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 16 Dec 2012 20:57

Victor wrote:There is no way that Dassault will air its reservations in public without the tacit blessing of the real buyer--the IAF


You may have a point in this and there is no doubt that Reliance and Dassault have deep pocket to setup the facilities for Rafale manufacture in India. My only concern is related to what happens after Rafale manufacture . Probably the tech received as part of the deal ( A or B grade tech ) may be part of India , but how much this setup built within the country be ready to contribute for future aviation tech.
For example as part of next step , will we see Tata's with the experience gained with Boeing and Reliance with the experience gained from Dassault (or for that matter any Indian company ) contribute for the development/production of AMCA / Mk.2 and later on compete with each other for future combat systems for India like a LM and Boeing in US

Really wish such a setup in India at the earliest 8)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2012 00:05

1) The GoI and other agencies within India would like the MMRCA effort to make India self sufficient

2) The MMRCA vendors (Rafale, etc) would like to do just enough to fulfill their obligations towards the MMRCA contracts and nothing more

3) Any other Indian entity (Tata/Reliant) would/should have their own need/goal to get involved with such projects, which I suspect is to make them self sufficient and dominant in these fields

None of them, none, have very similar goals (and perhaps rightfully so). To the extent they have some overlaps they will cooperate, else they will compete. It is natural.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 17 Dec 2012 00:11

dhiraj wrote:You may have a point in this and there is no doubt that Reliance and Dassault have deep pocket to setup the facilities for Rafale manufacture in India. My only concern is related to what happens after Rafale manufacture . Probably the tech received as part of the deal ( A or B grade tech ) may be part of India , but how much this setup built within the country be ready to contribute for future aviation tech.
For example as part of next step , will we see Tata's with the experience gained with Boeing and Reliance with the experience gained from Dassault (or for that matter any Indian company ) contribute for the development/production of AMCA / Mk.2 and later on compete with each other for future combat systems for India like a LM and Boeing in US


Now you are asking the right questions.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Will » 17 Dec 2012 00:17

One thing that can be said is that if there is one private Indian company that can break the monopoly of HAL and other defence PSU's then it is Reliance. They have the muscle to barge into the domains of the defence PSU's. I am not a great fan of reliance but if they can open up the defence sector to private industry then all the power to them.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 17 Dec 2012 00:45

For example as part of next step , will we see Tata's with the experience gained with Boeing and Reliance with the experience gained from Dassault (or for that matter any Indian company ) contribute for the development/production of AMCA / Mk.2 and later on compete with each other for future combat systems for India like a LM and Boeing in US

Really wish such a setup in India at the earliest


No matter what

1) We need to understand that when we talk about India being self sufficient it means only in critical areas and NOT in every area (for that will not happen)
2) Even with the assistance of Boeing and Dassault (and Sukhoi for PMF) it will mean just what they give India and nothing more. So, if the AMCA requires something different we are back to the drawing board.
3) Secondly, since India is being given things she has not really done work ground-up. So, there will still be a learning curve there too

It is a very long and a slippery road. Do not expect anything in the next 10 years or so. The MKI experience which was supposed to add to the knowledge base did nothing so far.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Eric Leiderman » 17 Dec 2012 02:36

Let Relaince manafacture the rafael the tot fm dassualt/thales etc,should not be handed over to one entity but will be shared by a pool of pvt and public companies. Stiff financial penalties for missing deadlines. be it in tot or manafacturing. I do not see any thing wrong with above it is widening the scope of IAF down the line, maybe after 10 years HAL will be given a run for the money and we will see the product manafactured on time under budget

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 17 Dec 2012 07:09

I think Reliance or Tatas or whoever it is, needs heckuva lot of consultants and contractors or people from DRDO and HAL on assignments with private bonus. That is the only way to head start, else they have no immediate resource. It is going to be a slow painful process for reliance or tatas. Tatas imho, is more capable than reliance in defense equipments especially on the niche market and complex engineering.

I am sure, Dassault saw reliance face, and was very clear on their approach.. the fact they are asking about controls, really says a lot about our setups.

sad

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 26 Dec 2012 02:44

[quote], one cannot help recalling that not a single country with which India has military-technical cooperation has ever sold a licence for the production of military hardware supplied to India. Even AEDS who won the tender to supply 126 Rafale fighters, and in accordance with the tender terms was obliged to offer a licence for the production of the plane at Indian plants is trying to sidestep or alter that provision. This has delayed the signing of a contract between Paris and Delhi, bringing into question the French victory in this tender.

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/12/24/di ... 21241.html[quote]

!!!???

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Will » 26 Dec 2012 04:45

Is Dassault shooting itself in the foot like it has in other places in the recent past?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 26 Dec 2012 06:23

India has been smitten earlier.. shouldn't be afraid to shy.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2013 22:37

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19846
The French company had told the ministry that if it is given the overall responsibility for the project, it should be given the freedom to decide on the proportion of work to be done by HAL and private companies in the programme

If the government had given a major role to the French firm in producing the aircraft in the country, it would have assigned a major share of work to an Indian defence company.

I think EADS was right in their assumptions. I think GoI did well here.. and saved their votes.

HAL needs to better look at how to engage private industries real quick.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby putnanja » 03 Jan 2013 23:44

MMRCA project: Govt firm on HAL as lead integrator

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry has decided to remain firm on having Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) as the lead integrator for producing 108 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) in the country, virtually turning down French firm Dassault Aviation's plea to play a bigger role in the multi-billion dollar project.
...
...
As per the tender, first 18 of the 126 aircraft are to be supplied by Rafale from its facilities and the rest 108 are to be license produced and integrated by the HAL at its facilities here.

If any company other than HAL is designated as the integrator, it would be deviation from the tender issued for the project and as per the defence procurement procedure, it will have to be approved by the defence acquisition council, defence ministry sources said.

In view of this, the ministry has decided that it will stick to the clauses of the tender issued in 2007, they said.
...
...
The ministry is expected to convey its decision on the issue to the company during the negotiations on the deal beginning next week.

The French company had told the ministry that if it is given the overall responsibility for the project, it should be given the freedom to decide on the proportion of work to be done by HAL and private companies in the programme

If the government had given a major role to the French firm in producing the aircraft in the country, it would have assigned a major share of work to an Indian defence company.
...
...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Vipul » 05 Jan 2013 22:58

MMRCA deal: Negotiations between defence ministry, Dassault run into fresh hurdle.

Negotiations between France’s Dassault Aviation and the Defence Ministry for the $ 10.4 bn (Rs 45,000 crore) Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender to acquire 126 fighter aircrafts for the IAF have hit another roadblock.

Highly placed sources told FE, the ministry of defence has turned down Dassault’s assertion that if it is given the overall responsibility of the project, it should be given the freedom to decide on the quantum of work to be shared between Hindustan Aeronatics Limited (HAL) and private companies in the programme. Dassault had made this point in a letter to the Defence Ministry late last year along with a demand that the ministry define HAL’s role in MMRCA.

While rebuffing Dassault’s contention, the ministry has also highlighted that the RfP for the tender issued in 2007 clearly outlines role of HAL as the project’s ‘lead-integrator’ and changes at this stage cannot be permitted.

Soon after Dassault emerged the lowest bidder (L-1) beating its rival Eurofighter on life cycle costs, the French company signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Reliance Industries to work together in Indian defence and security sectors. Industry sources indicated that, “The French company are anxious to start work with Reliance Industries Ltd under the MoU that was inked in 2012 June.”

The latest development adds to a long list of hurdles negotiations have faced since Dassault’s selection as L-1 in January last year.

According to official sources, the negotiations have dragged on for so long also due to issues related to MMRCA’s 50% offsets requirement and transfer of technology. The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer cutting edge technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar while citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb such critical technologies as an excuse.

There is a strong lobby of small and medium French enterprises which is against industrial offsets and sees it as a threat to the competiveness of the French defence industry. Early last year, Patrick Colas des Francs, chief executive of Coges, the trade show organizer for the Eurosatory land systems exhibition reportedly said, “Offsets are a threat to small and medium-sized companies. This is a real problem.” "Offset deals not only take production work away from French subcontractors and suppliers, but also provide accelerated access to knowledge and skills that allows companies in the client country to compete in world markets," he said.

Acknowledging that negotiations between the two sides are far from over former chief executive of Dassault Charles Edelstenne had told a French parliamentary hearing last month: “We are in deep talks at the moment. It’s a complicated country, the negotiations are tough, but there is a desire to wrap up on both sides.” “I’m relatively optimistic,” he added.

However, the biggest threat to an early conclusion of negotiations comes from the financial squeeze the defence ministry is currently facing. As reported by FE earlier, the MoD has been unable to secure extra budget for this year. Moreover, the armed forces’ capital acquisitions budget has been cut by Rs. 10,000 crore. This is certainly going to derail any hopes of the IAF to lay its hands on MMRCA anytime in the near future. According to officials, contract signing before second half of 2013 looks highly unlikely.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby manum » 05 Jan 2013 23:49

^^ this news is concoction of relative news of various timelines....

can not be taken as current news item...rather a guess out of memory...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Jan 2013 00:19

Vipul wrote:According to officials, contract signing before second half of 2013 looks highly unlikely.


That would be . . . interesting.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Jan 2013 01:58

I don't see any benefits in insisting on HAL as the chief integrator. If a 'Dassault-Reliance Aircraft Company' sets up a factory in India to assemble the Rafale for the IAF, I think it will be good for the Indian aerospace industry.

HAL already has a lot of fighter aircraft work on its plate, with the MKI, the FGFA, and the LCA. A second fighter aircraft assembler will be good for India.

If all it requires is the approval of the Defence Acquisition Committee, it is no big deal. The Govt can get it anytime, if it wants to.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 06 Jan 2013 23:22

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130106/main5.htm

the deal will not be signed before the current financial year comes to an end in March this year

. . .

the government will be left with a narrow window to sign the deal before preparations for the 2014 General Election set-in

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 07 Jan 2013 00:38

The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer cutting edge technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar while citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb such critical technologies as an excuse. :(( :((


The actual reason for this whine is given in the very next para itself, no country will part away with tech which ultimately is going to hurt it's interest in the long run. Personally I have zero hope of getting any cutting edge tech with this Rafale deal instead what we do to deal with our problems coming up in LCA is going to establish the technical base and knowledge required for an aerospace industry. MMRCA is moh maya only nothing good is going to come from this.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 07 Jan 2013 05:02

The PSUs,run by baudom do not want any competition from pvt. Indian industry whatsoever.Their dog-in-the-manger attitude has resulted in massive delays,cost overruns and shoddy quality for decades.It was easier in the past when we had tough and reliable ,relatively simple tech in Soviet era weapon systems which could take a lot of punishment,but today,systems are so complex and sophisticated that the screwdriver art of putting them together is now obsolete.

What the GOI/MOD must do is to involve pvt. Indian industry in a phased manner and also bold enough to bar any PSU that has had a record of non-performance.ideally,a new JV for the Rafale deal as has been done with the very successful Brahmos programme should be initiated.A separate entity under HAL but run by the IAF.It is only when the IAF got into the act that some progress has been made on the LCA,still waiting to be perfected for IAF service.

As for the AESA and other eqpt.,some of the PSUs have had success even reported in AWST from time to time.Why can't the radar be handled by BEL which make a wide variety of systems and surely can handle the same? If the French are using this as an excuse not to give us the tech,then we must firmly tell them that without AESA TOT in full the deal is OFF.We do have alternatives in the future with the FGFA and if we need to keep numbers in the IAF happy at low cost,all we need to do is to buy more Flanker variants,including the SU-34, and/or the MIG-35s,both cheaper options too! I am sure that other losers like the Gripen will be on the first flight into Delhi should we say to Dassault,"au revoir" froggie!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23370 » 07 Jan 2013 05:35

Time to scrap the MMRCA and focus on LCA-MkII. Order 400-500 Ge-414's and focus on getting the LCA-MKII to IOC. MKI at top end with PAK-FA and LCA-MKII at lower end will do till Kaveri and MCA come online.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 07 Jan 2013 05:52

Yes thanks Bheesh for adding what I forgot to post.With the money saved,an accelerated programme to perfect LCA Mk-2 will hopefully give us numbers at lower cost,if only we can build at least 36-40 aircraft per year.


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