Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Jan 2013 16:42

Seems like Jana Sangh had this sort of confusion during 77-80 period. Then again VPSingh used BJP and BJP fell into confusion. What is needed is to ensure that a stronger force comes out of this confusion. The popular support will move to BJP if they can sort out things within. A confused leadership can never inspire confidence.

NM deserves a proper well supported candidacy but there is a big problem with NM. He attracts the kind of attacks that BJP can ill afford at the moment. Most NM supporters are angry because the workings of the Sangh are not as easily available for scrutiny. Who ultimately becomes PM should be kept to the backburner and a sensible deal should be struck which must give enough quid pro quo to NM to get him out of Gujarat and into the Senapati seat. Party Head (de facto and/or de jure) not being the head of the government is not something unheard of. That would enable a situation where the initiative comes back in the hands of BJP with Kongis and media remaining apprehensive as to the size of NM's political capital within Sangh. What is more important is to have everybody on board on some big issue like RJB. This will act to complete the confusion in the ranks of the Kongi and their media.

Right now what is happening is that both are hurting each other:
1) NM is still stuck in Gujarat without much organisational support to rise further;
2) BJP is still grossly behind the curve and is not able to capitalize on NM.

The no deal situation will only take both BJP and NM down. Even VHP has to understand that with the whole of Sangh remaining in the game their pet projects have some chances of seeing the light of day but if Sangh goes down in confusion then they can kiss the RJB goodbye. Because by the time they are able to get back up, the demographics would have changed irrevocably.

NM on the other hand has to think harder on how to cut the cake so everybody gets a share. A leader unable to get the allies behind him can hardly inspire confidence himself.

But then again I do not know much of politics.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 05 Jan 2013 22:38

A must see, a biographical look at Narendra Modi:

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 05 Jan 2013 23:08

Swamygji,
cant see any sarcasm in my post.All I meant was hindus worship in multiple ways.We cannot hope to induce political homogenity through Hinduism by some sort of ideological tampering.

or Maybe,my use of naadar community as an example was wrong.Perhaps I was underestimating their Hindu community spirit and ability to compete against all comers.Maybe it is people like me who are the problem,not the average muthu or raamu or maybe not.We cannot wish away strong linguistic/caste sentiments at state level or again may be people will chose a national vision.

Confused onlee

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Jan 2013 23:23

Venkat saar: No problemO, I wanted to know where you were coming from. It was me who was confused, not you ji. And, I am a strong supporter of heterogeneous India with numerous sub-cultures, and a non-monolithic Hinduism, and most importantly a polytheistic Hinduism. I think you and me talked about polytheism and monotheism sometime back.

BTW, here is a nice set of articles for you, when you get the chance read onlee

http://www.tamilartsacademy.com/links.html#articles
Some of the sub-links are broken, but anyways.

My problem is about the talk of "S.TN" as if it is an entity on its own without connections to rest of the TN or India.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Jan 2013 23:33

svenkat bhai ji, the fact that Hinduism allows for many a things implies even political consolidation would not be resisted in any fanatic fashion. Furthermore political consolidation can be conflated with political homogenity or even religious homogenity in only the western constructs.

To clarify:

There as a time till late 80s where nobody believed that UP can experience any kind of hindu political consolidation. Hindus in UP are exceedingly conservative and the electorate was very fragmented. Still there was a consolidation under the umbrella provided by Sangh for a limited time. The duration was limited only because Sangh lost its way and additionally perhaps because the old order cannot just be wished away so easily. They will put up a resistance in all cases. The Sangh people gave up rather easily.

Going further political consolidation does not have to be on the foundation of homogenity. What has an Akali Sikh dominated Punjab got to do with political consolidation sought by Sangh. Besides you need to realise that within the Dharmic fold it is easy to achieve consolidation. The challenge if at all was there it was inter-caste. The old order had been so successful in their enterprise that a lot of people in north India had lost hope. But RJB did unite Hindus across caste lines with the able help of local satraps like Kalyan Singh.

You need to relax a bit about the strawmen created by Kongis. Hardly any part of Sangh is exclusivist in its outlook.

To my mind the challenges are less at a strategic front. A common agenda to agitate can easily be arranged for. Instead the challenges are mostly tactical and that too only because the scale of the electoral politics is somewhat overwhelming. Which in turn requires time and resources both of which have Kongis sitting on it like a snake on a gold chest.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2013 06:23

gD, Only a section of Ashraf IM in old Hyderabd consider Owaisi a leader. Non Ashrafs in Andhra Pradesh dont even think of him as leader.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jan 2013 08:17

ramana wrote:gD, Only a section of Ashraf IM in old Hyderabd consider Owaisi a leader. Non Ashrafs in Andhra Pradesh dont even think of him as leader.

Do they still have Arab colony in Hyd?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 08:25

SwamyG wrote: My problem is about the talk of "S.TN" as if it is an entity on its own without connections to rest of the TN or India.

Well it doesn't when you decipher S.TN to be Christians of India and UP/Bihar to be Muslims of India.

By the way India is the west-aping portion of Hindus.

Bharat is the society that reveres this nation and has no problem bowing to it saying "Vande Mataram" and treating it as the all providing and all powerful Durga mata. This Bharat is the polytheistic society that follows monolithic Dharma.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 08:43

Ravi_G garu,

It is the old order of that days Sangh (we are talking about late 80s) that achieved political consolidation in UP during that time. So how can it be at fault for what happened afterwards?

The biggest failure of BJP (not Sangh) under ABV's leadership, IMHO, was its failure to follow thru its promises w.r.t RJB. I think it has to do with the pressures it got due to Smiling Buddha, thru its c-system coalition partners.

Imagine a scenario where BJP followed thru on its promise about Ram Mandir. It would have made the entire Bharat do a pilgrimage to that location (if you have any doubt check the Rama Silas that came from every village in Bharat). This would have reconnected the UP Hindus with rest of Bharat and made them self-aware. This reconnect would have happened in all "castes" (I am using this word consciously) of UP.

Imagine ABV started construction of Ram Temple in 2002 or so, thus challenging his coalition partners to go away if they wanted and go for elections.

When ABV started selling the same secular-dhimmitude to Bharat, he destroyed decades of hardwork put in by Sangh old order.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Jan 2013 12:18

RamaY:

You are ignoring the ground realities of life.

The urge to belong to a group is one of the most basic urges. In different times & places, people use different unifying features t form a group. At the end of the day caste too is a way of defining groups.

In India this definition also has a significant correlation to power and economic structure. People identify with castes, because either it acts as a way to solidify their position at the top of the power structure, or a mechanism to undermine the existing power structure for their own benefit.

While a RJB may sway emotions, I doubt it would dramatically order the socio-political structure. It is that power structure which sustains caste fault lines and a Ram Mandir will not change those overnight.

What can alter those is the end of the "politics of scarcity". In this mechanism the durbar gave handouts, and being in the right side help you get those handouts. Unless, and until, that changes the caste structure will remain intact.

Once Indian politics moves towards the "politics of governance" these caste based identities will dissipate because then the need to ask for handouts will become less.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Jan 2013 16:35

US Congressman congratulates Narendra Modi on his electoral victory

Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi's third successive electoral victory found a mention in the US House of Representatives when a Republican lawmaker congratulated him while contending that businesses flock to his state and his message "cuts across dividing lines".

Congressman Aaron Schock is the first US lawmaker to have congratulated Modi on the House floor on his recent electoral victory.

The young lawmaker serving Illinois's 18th congressional district said Modi was elected by a diverse coalition of voters.

"Mr Speaker, I rise today in recognition of the election of Narendra Modi as third term chief minister of Gujarat, India," Schock said in his remarks in the House yesterday.

The second youngest Congressman to be currently serving in House of Representatives, Schock, 31, said Modi was running on a platform of economic prosperity for all.

"... and having two terms of proven results behind him, Mr Modi was elected by a diverse coalition of voters from every religion, education level, and class of society. His message cuts across dividing lines and highlights what unites, rather than what divides, those he represents," Schock said.

"In both the United States and India, every election is an affirmation, not just of those who the people choose to elect, but of the very foundation on which our societies are built — the idea that the power of government rests with the governed," he said.

"Mr Modi understands the great responsibility entrusted to elected officials, and he has used his position to advocate for sound economic policies that have grown the economy of Gujarat at an astonishing rate over his past two terms," Schock said.

"Businesses flock to Gujarat, creating jobs and raising the standard of living for its citizens. The successes achieved through Mr Modi's leadership have drawn praise from his countrymen and observers abroad, as well as from the Indian Diaspora around the world," he said in his remarks.

He said Indian-Americans in his district in Illinois and around the United States have contributed greatly to the culture and prosperity of their adopted country.

"I join with them today in congratulating Narendra Modi on his election and extending my best wishes for his third term as chief minister of Gujarat," Schock said.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Jan 2013 16:42

There are actually two competing views at the moment and I feel that these competing views are not actually being read properly by the people supporting these. And since I feel this mis-read is actually at the bottom of the whole issue of old guard vs. new guard I would request guys interested to bear with me a while.

X- believes non construction of RJB was inexcusable and had RJB Sthapana been completed then thing would have turned for the better and since the problem is identified so lets fix the problem and have Sangh constituents work towards RJB Sthapana even if the Sangh agenda gets attenuated on the Eco-political front. These guys would love to see Pravin Togadia become the PM.

Y- believes the RJB Sthapana can wait and the politics of 'Shahi tukdas' engendered in the toxic mix of Kongi+RNI+Coconuts need to be tackled first. So lets just put the RJB issue out on the clothesline for now. These guys would love to see everybody loose to NM.

The reality I am afraid is that there are actually 4 parties involved in all this:
1) the opponents of both these schools is one and the same and the attacks are going to be ceaseless on that front which is manned weaker.

2) the old guard will at some point have to give way to the new guard and it serves the interests of the old guard that the new guard is someone who can execute the Punyaarth that they had set out on. This will require ability to take the masses along and 'purity of agenda' may actually turn out to be counter productive.

3) the new guard has to learn that x y z in the old guard has some sanchit karm that is the basis of all the self-confidence being displayed in the first place.

4) the mango man knows that the advancing demographics and an ongoing scuttling of the Indic lifestyle is a threat that is clear and present often executed by a compromised Indian. Gangudin knows well that his poverty is the underlying reason why RJB Sthapana has been incomplete and RJB is a part of the awakening process that is required to further a self-development agenda. Gangudin does not see the two competing sides as contradictory. He actually believes these are both important each at its own moment in time.

X & Y need to sort out the differences keeping in view the needs of the Gangudin. Because if they do not then X will die out remembered only for its stupidity and Y would also die out rather soon for its cupidity. Gangudin will go on to either set up a whole new stucture to serve his needs or equally likely will get culled in the fight for freedom.

Baaki saab ishwar echha balwan.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Jan 2013 19:57

Re: RJB (one of the grouse of some members on the forum)

How do you build a temple on land that is sub-judice? Kindly think with your brain. Vajpayee didn't have a 2/3rds majority to do it constitutionally. Same is the case with other disputed sites in Mathura and Kashi which the PVNR Rao Govt. declared illegal by passing a law in 1992. Unless the idea is to do it forcibly which India has moved away from. Even NM can't/won't do that.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 20:09

Ravi_g,

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1353820

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Jan 2013 20:09

Supratik ji, thinking with which other organ are you familiar with?

NM or even you are not being given this onerous responsibility. The resident fundus are talking about a loong looong loooong fight. Surely if something can be given up so easily then something can be taken up just as easily too.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 20:21

Supratik wrote:Re: RJB (one of the grouse of some members on the forum)

How do you build a temple on land that is sub-judice? Kindly think with your brain. Vajpayee didn't have a 2/3rds majority to do it constitutionally. Same is the case with other disputed sites in Mathura and Kashi which the PVNR Rao Govt. declared illegal by passing a law in 1992. Unless the idea is to do it forcibly which India has moved away from. Even NM can't/won't do that.

Even Prophet Mohammed changed his mind, when time demanded it.

Supreme Court of India and Indian constitution are not some Abrahamic religion. They will have to go with the wind, the same way they advised Gen. VKS.

the same PVNR's parliament passed a resolution that entire JK is a inseparable part of India. Then why/what is na-pun-s-aka MMS negotiating with Pakis?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 20:25

ravi_g,

NM belongs to group X per your definition. His strength comes from his unwavering commitment to his principles, whatever they are.

Think if we would be having this thread if he were to (1) apologize for 2002 riots, (2) wore the Muslim cap (3) gave tickets to Muslim candidates just because dhimmi media said so, and so on...

P.S: there is a better organ to think with. It is called Intellect. It is available only in Bharat. The materialistic west doesn't believe in the existence of intellect.

P.P.S: Pravin Togadia is akin to Kali in Mother Durga's war with Mahishasura. Kali is meant to handle Raktabijas so Durga can focus on Mahishasuras.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Jan 2013 22:08

ravi_g wrote:Supratik ji, thinking with which other organ are you familiar with?

NM or even you are not being given this onerous responsibility. The resident fundus are talking about a loong looong loooong fight. Surely if something can be given up so easily then something can be taken up just as easily too.

Well if one has waited for 500 yrs one can wait for another 500 provided it is done in the right manner. Something done in the right manner is central to our ethos. It will have long lasting contributions to our civilization. We don't copy middle-eastern tactics even though what happened in 92 was more of an exception than a rule. So I don't understand the grouse of certain members regarding RJM blaming different people for there not being a proper temple (we already have a make-shift temple). For the other sites the right thing to do will be to use either legal or constitutional methods even if it takes a few hundred years. Otherwise the Hindu community will suffer from the same blot on their religion that Islam and Christianity suffer from for destroying countless other places of worship.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Jan 2013 22:22

RamaY wrote:Ravi_G garu,

Imagine a scenario where BJP followed thru on its promise about Ram Mandir. It would have made the entire Bharat do a pilgrimage to that location (if you have any doubt check the Rama Silas that came from every village in Bharat). This would have reconnected the UP Hindus with rest of Bharat and made them self-aware. This reconnect would have happened in all "castes" (I am using this word consciously) of UP.

Imagine ABV started construction of Ram Temple in 2002 or so, thus challenging his coalition partners to go away if they wanted and go for elections.

One of the important reasons because of which BJP lost UP is their inability to excecute the above scenario. As a result they have totally lost the trust and support of UP Hindus.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Jan 2013 22:30

[/quote]

One of the important reasons because of which BJP lost UP is their inability to excecute the above scenario. As a result they have totally lost the trust and support of UP Hindus.[/quote]

Yes, this is true but if you look at the big picture this is better unless the SC comes up with a convoluted judgement. I think Owaisi claimed that they are not going to take it if given 1/3rd of the land. I hope he keeps the promise.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Jan 2013 22:30

Supratik wrote:Re: RJB (one of the grouse of some members on the forum)

How do you build a temple on land that is sub-judice? Kindly think with your brain. Vajpayee didn't have a 2/3rds majority to do it constitutionally. Same is the case with other disputed sites in Mathura and Kashi which the PVNR Rao Govt. declared illegal by passing a law in 1992. Unless the idea is to do it forcibly which India has moved away from. Even NM can't/won't do that.

Supratik ji, Law is not there to protect Hindus. So honestly I do not know what Hindus will achieve playing by rules. Especially when everybody else from Islamics to Evangelicals is busy showing middle finger to the law.

Trust me guts and courage are going to help Hindus much more than blindly following the Laws drafted by Nehru-gandi dynasty.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 22:40

Supratik wrote: Yes, this is true but if you look at the big picture this is better unless the SC comes up with a convoluted judgement. I think Owaisi claimed that they are not going to take it if given 1/3rd of the land. I hope he keeps the promise.

SC of India, unfortunately, is as napunsak as the other organs of governance have become under C-System.

It stood like napunsak when RG showed his d**k in sha-Bano case. It stood like napunsak when IG declared emergency, it stood napunsak in VKS case, it is standing napunsak in all the scams of India, and it will stand napunsak when the RJb case comes in front of it.

India is a democracy, which means the parliament can do whatever it wants when it can galvanize 2/3rds of MPs to its bidding. All it takes is to keep the number of Bharatiya MPs below 180.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Jan 2013 22:50

darshan, I am saying use the existing mechanisms available to get the things done. If you can't get there by hook get there by crook even if it takes longer. However, don't do anything that would jeopardize the civilizational ethos. I would like to think that 92 was an exception. I think those in the higher echeleons of the RJM movement understand that. It is only the mango people specially of UP who make up the overwhelming majority who do not understand. Furthermore, RJM movement was a temporary unity amongst UP Hindus who are otherwise deeply divided along caste lines. Once the euphoria died down they went back to their casteist structure. So the inability to build a grand temple is one of the reasons but not the only reason.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Jan 2013 22:53

RamaY wrote:
India is a democracy, which means the parliament can do whatever it wants when it can galvanize 2/3rds of MPs to its bidding. All it takes is to keep the number of Bharatiya MPs below 180.

I am all for doing it through the parliament. So instead of blaming different people all RJM supporters should focus on getting that 2/3rds majority.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 22:54

Don't we want unity among UP Hindus and Indian Hindus and after all, all Indians?

Then what is wrong if UP can unify it's Hindu population under the banner of RJB/Kasi/Mathura?

What is the problem here? Bharatiya unity or it's unity under Hindu dharma or the anti-national Indians not accepting the majority consolidation?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 22:55

Supratik wrote: I am all for doing it through the parliament. So instead of blaming different people all RJM supporters should focus on getting that 2/3rds majority.

That is exactly what we are trying to do in this thread. Vote for a non-apologetic Hindu leader and get him the majority required so Bharat can be united under Dharma.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Jan 2013 23:02

RamaY wrote:Don't we want unity among UP Hindus and Indian Hindus and after all, all Indians?

Then what is wrong if UP can unify it's Hindu population under the banner of RJB/Kasi/Mathura?

What is the problem here? Bharatiya unity or it's unity under Hindu dharma or the anti-national Indians not accepting the majority consolidation?

I am saying the unity shown in the 90s was not real. UP is a deeply casteist society.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 06 Jan 2013 23:10

^^That's right. Caste is the bane of the UP and Bihar Hindus. They have divided themselves into mutually hostile groups based on caste. They are unable to think of themselves as Hindus and thus are not able to develop any camaraderie with fellow Hindus.

Their first point of self-identification as a group is caste, not religion. As a result, they are unable to benefit from the support of the wider Hindu pool, as Christian and Muslims do with their flock and ummah. They nuetralise their numerical superiority in India with such a stupid attitude, and Congress finds it easy to divide and rule them with the support of monotheists. Somebody should tell these UP and Bihari Hindus that if they don't learn to hang together, most assuredly, they will all hang separately.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Jan 2013 23:15

Then the statement "RJB or RSS old order consolidated UP Hindus for few years" should be wrong.

If some motivation or hope could bring unity and consolidation among Hindus then it should be pursued and supported.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 07 Jan 2013 04:44

But post-NDC meeting, the situation appeared to have changed, as both the Prime Minister and his deputy in the Planning Commission are said to have been so impressed by Mr Modi’s speech and presentation that they want to hire the person who writes the chief minister’s speeches.
Smart move, but the Gujarat strongman is also known for his extempore deliveries.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 07 Jan 2013 07:02

RamaY wrote:
SwamyG wrote: My problem is about the talk of "S.TN" as if it is an entity on its own without connections to rest of the TN or India.
Well it doesn't when you decipher S.TN to be Christians of India and UP/Bihar to be Muslims of India.

I am not sure what Theo has said about S.TN or the Christian population. I know the Christian population in S.TN is high; the districts of Kanyakumari and Tirunelvelli have high percentages. I think Kanyakumari has just a little over 50%. However the percentage of Christians in Tamil Nadu is far less; and in TN clan and caste still rules. Irrespective of several reform movements, casteism is rampant - sometimes cutting across religious divides.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 08:41

I think it is nigh time we stop hiding behind the caste lahengaas (petti-coats)...

Yes caste is important. But that didn't stop these castes to vote for DMK one time and AIDMK another time, right? It didn't stop electing BJP/Maya/SP in UP right?

How stupid for people to think some how certain castes vote for specific parties all the time? In AP, TDP was said to be formed for Kammas only. But don't we see the daughter and SIL of NTR become MPs in INC party while his second wife joined hands with YSJ?

On the other hand Muslims and Christians are voting for parties that are part of C-System alone. This is the real motivating factor.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 07 Jan 2013 09:24

SwamyG wrote:TN clan and caste still rules....Irrespective of several reform movements, casteism is rampant

Swamy,

This is true of all of India. Why are you singling out TN as though things are worse here. I know you don't mean it but you do tend to look down on TN just a bit when you say these things. In fact TN is far more advanced along the reform curve than many other places in India that have not even begun. I don't think there is a single region that has broken through this divide. In fact this board itself is replete with caste and religious bigotry. Witness the nasty things that were said about Jats, in the Delhi outrage thread. Or the one step short of lynching incitement comments that were made when the speculation turned to a brahmin girl being raped by a muslim and the subsequent downhill ski by a forum moderator. I have been as guilty of this as anyone else because in India you tend to deal with your own 'community' for everything AFAP. At least no one repeated the owaisi type nastiness here (at risk of lynching) though there are boards where such nonsense is taken as the truth. I had a parsi friend who visited this board a few years ago who was horrified at the level of bigotry on this board and never returned. You can see the constant effort to turn every nasty non-hindu bigot into a secularist when the truth is they are simply bigots and India is filled with them. But this is India, we are filled an ability to turn everyone who is different into 'another' whose fault everything is so we do not have to look at ourselves.

The reason I speak of S.TN is because my experience is limited to this area, I do not have too much experience in rural areas elsewhere. So far at least S & N TN get along just fine though there a couple of hot heads running around with other ideas. S.TN's (Madurai, Virudunagar, Thirunelveli, Thoothukudi, Kanyakumari) per capita income is slightly higher than the rest of TN and is even a step above Chennai for instance. In fact I believe the richest districts in TN are Virudunagar, KanyaKumari and Thoothukudi in that order though Coimbatore fits in there as well. The growth rate is also quite high. This prosperity has to do with the high education levels and consequent improvement in HDI. The key difference has been education of women, who are contrary to rest of India, more literate than males per the last census. The future is bright and private industrialization is proceeding rapidly, with the one problem of water shortages that slow down heavy industry. You make any linkages you want to GJ levels from this.

The really poor districts in TN are ones like Villupuram, Vellore, Dharmapuri Sivaganga, etc. These are heavily tribal, treat their women shabbily and have a HDI and income similar to Jharkhand, can't use Bihar anymore.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jan 2013 12:04

Theo ji allow me to fill you up with details that will help you appreciate things differently.

Re. Your point of 'Jat hate'. There is a need to clarify on a few things that if left un-clarified will take you further along the path you already are treading and which is becoming a hindrance in your new found interest in understanding NM and Sangh as a possible alternative that exists even if not acceptable to you.

If I am correct then the very first mention of Jats, in the context of 'Social degeneration fueled by new money in Gurgaon' was made by Rohitvats ji. Now while Vats would be brahmin but for all practical purposes he himself is a Jat. That is how he identified himself till sometime back when he had location mentioned as 'Jutland'. These days he is sufficiently conversant with Genetics too, to know clearly that he is more like his situ then like any other chimera (He was an unhidden lurker in the OIT thread

). While you saw it as community pointing at least I saw it as more of a self-criticism and that is how IMO we should be open to see it.

Personally I also used the Jat word in a context that is not relevant here but it would be pertinent to clarify Jaati/Varna or so called caste affiliations/appelations in this thread. So kindly bear with me. Unlike you I come from a background that formally as a matter of Dharma that we follow, believes in, works with and clearly acknowledges multiple identities without giving up a few more related ideas to control unbridled misuse of these. I do believe Jats of Gurgaon have a collective right and resposibility to manage their internal affairs in a manner conducive to both their and the outsiders welfare. Since I work with Indians and this forum is meant for Indians and most Indians already are familiar with these details so for the sake of brevity and focus we do not issue caveats with every post. Notice the real Jaats on the forums who probably have nothing to do with Gurgaon are not taking it otherwise. At least not to the extent that they would defend the indefensible on the flimsy and contorted logic of a self-conflation. I personally do appreciate the fact that these real Jaats carry that much care in their postings and this goes to show the strength of their innate Dharm. This pattern of multiple identities goes on in your case also. Say for example if you were to behave in an imbecilic manner, while you are living in your karm-bhoomi, it is going to reflect on us RI (s) also. And yes I personally am willing to take up the responsibilities that come with this kind of acknowledgement. Additionally these multiple identities also protect us from the artificial construct of 'Constitution as contract between State and Individual' which is what makes people latch on to bandwagons like 'raping society syndrome' and then in the same breath suggest 'more laws are the ultimate panacea' kind of escapist ideation.

Now you see how difficult it becomes to keep mentioning the above paras in every post. If you find it hard to follow the lingo kindly feel free to seek clarifications. BTW a huf-puf click-click response is also quite ok as your Parsi friend thought fit to not display, because it then gets to be the problem not of intra-forum communication but one of intra-community communication which is identified, acknowledged and appreciated as being valid. Note how the problem is identified, segregated and sought to be dealt with at the most immediate level in a hermetically sealed container. Parsis or otherwise Jaats outside of the situ still remain entirely free of the absurd responsibility that comes with conflation of having to care for something they never bargained for in the first place. Note also these Parsis and Jaats remain responsible for their current situ since that is what they are familiar with the way you are familiar with south TN. Same applies to me too.

Challo ji bahut hua communication tamunication, back to the Machinations, intrigue and Keyboarding.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Jan 2013 15:22

^^^Got to go easy on spraying "bigotry" charges around.

Each to his/her own opinion only, or are we to have thought-policing on the board now? In online fora, as is often seen, "if you disagree with me, you are a moron/sellout/bigot" is more common than is generally presumed. IMVVHO of course. As for this dhaga and its cousins, well, people take things salted here, its the burqa forum for heaven's sake.

End of the day, to the extent that we agree with, respect and abide by the constitution of India as originally written down, we're all on the same side only. Rest ll is maya, transient illusions, feints, shadow boxing, insight-fishing, pattern matching, opinion polling etc only. Only.

One thing I learned is that the moment a dhaga starts taking itself too seriously, it starts digging its own grave. Only. As our man ravi says:

Challo ji bahut hua communication tamunication, back to the Machinations, intrigue and Keyboarding.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 07 Jan 2013 15:35

Theo, that is a lot of generalization and trumpeting of S.TN e.g. casteism has almost died in Bengal. Also Westernization is not a solution for rapes e.g. according to NDTV there were 80000 cases of recorded rapes in UK alone (~ 60 million population) last year. There is more angst than bigotry in this forum.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Jan 2013 16:42

Theoji

My questions are still unanswered.

What does S.TN want from national leadership? Why wouldn't NM or any Hindu nationalist leader be acceptable to them? And so on...

Since you agreed that you know little about non-S.TN, perhaps the rest of India has had enough of secular liberal demo-no-cracy of C-System and is ready for a transformation?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 07 Jan 2013 17:34

RamaY wrote:Ravi_G garu,

It is the old order of that days Sangh (we are talking about late 80s) that achieved political consolidation in UP during that time. So how can it be at fault for what happened afterwards?

The biggest failure of BJP (not Sangh) under ABV's leadership, IMHO, was its failure to follow thru its promises w.r.t RJB. I think it has to do with the pressures it got due to Smiling Buddha, thru its c-system coalition partners.

Imagine a scenario where BJP followed thru on its promise about Ram Mandir. It would have made the entire Bharat do a pilgrimage to that location (if you have any doubt check the Rama Silas that came from every village in Bharat). This would have reconnected the UP Hindus with rest of Bharat and made them self-aware. This reconnect would have happened in all "castes" (I am using this word consciously) of UP.

Imagine ABV started construction of Ram Temple in 2002 or so, thus challenging his coalition partners to go away if they wanted and go for elections.

When ABV started selling the same secular-dhimmitude to Bharat, he destroyed decades of hardwork put in by Sangh old order.

+108, saar. Completely agree with you.

And it is not just about ideological 'purity', but general credibility. ABV won on the plank of RJB, after the win, he ditched and that made BJP lose credibility on RJB issue. Even today, BJP is portrayed as a party that uses Ram for politics, but is not seriousness about it. And they cite the NDA regime's lack of all-out-efforts to bolster their case.

Look at UPA... it does not spare any stone unturned when it comes to their core vote-banks. How is it that NDA thought they could simply ditch their core issue which catapulted them on to the national stage and will not suffer any side-effects?

Advani, in the last general elections, went to the next step and claimed to have cried in the corner when Babri was destroyed. Again a loss of credibility.

It is not just about 'purity', but credibility. If a party can give up it main issue, then it can easily give up all other issues. The voter senses it and instinctivly distrusts those who re-invent themselves too much. Modi has done very well in not fall for this trick. He never sought to separate Godhra and post-Godhra(while secular junta wants to ignore godhra and concentrate only on post-godhra). Modi has never expressed any regret or apology. If he does it, he may also risk losing credibility.

ABV govt. fell after 13 days. It was again re-elected. If ABV govt. fell again while trying to construct temple at RJB, then the people would have again re-elected them. But, by ditching it, they lost credibility.

Sometimes, people think it is chanakian to feign. But, the problem is one does not know, when it is a pretense and when it is the truth. One is never sure which are the real verses and which are the 'satanic verses'. The leader may be trying to fool his opponents by feigning a compromise or the leader may have compromised and fooling his followers...

Some are saying that it is debate of which is important: 'economic', 'social', 'religious', 'political'...etc. And trying to prioritize one over the other. To me, all of them are inter-connected. A huge temple at RJB would have been a huge success for Hindus from all angles. More than anything else, it would trigger a next stage of evolution, where Hindus can be assertive. By failing it, ABV let down a great chance for social and cultural revival of Hindus(that would lead to political resurgence). This behaviour, to me, opens up the possibility that he may be a crypto-nehruvian.

If BJP had succeeded in constructing a temple at RJB, then the politics of India would have moved right, decisively. I think ABV would have lost the very next election for not coming good on RJB issue. He was saved by Kargil. BTW, TDP also gained due to Kargil fervour. But, in the next elections, both BJP and TDP were wiped out.

It seems to me that BJP lost credibility under ABV's rule. It came across as a party that uses Ram for its politics, but does not really bother about Ram.

Lastly, RJB is an issue that transcends the limits of time, place and nationality(not to speak of castes). RJB is not an UP issue, it is a pan-Hindu issue. RJB was an issue before Indian nation or this constitution was formed. At that time, it was ruled that since Babri structure is already present, nothing can be done. This was a favourite argument. Since there is already a structure there, nothing can be done. You see, things don't remain constant forever. People who are rooted in 'present' only, need to remember this. Today, there is no structure at that place... So, things change. So, for those people who say ABV could not have done it, they are being a bit naive.

RamaY wrote: Even Prophet Mohammed changed his mind, when time demanded it.

Did he? or was it 'satanic verses'?!

RamaY wrote:I think it is nigh time we stop hiding behind the caste lahengaas (petti-coats)...

Yes caste is important. But that didn't stop these castes to vote for DMK one time and AIDMK another time, right? It didn't stop electing BJP/Maya/SP in UP right?

How stupid for people to think some how certain castes vote for specific parties all the time? In AP, TDP was said to be formed for Kammas only. But don't we see the daughter and SIL of NTR become MPs in INC party while his second wife joined hands with YSJ?

On the other hand Muslims and Christians are voting for parties that are part of C-System alone. This is the real motivating factor.

+108 again. I have been saying this for sometime. It is a myth that a particular caste will only vote for a particular party. Look at the total voting percentage, many people don't even vote. Most educated and rich guys don't vote because they don't believe in this system at all(or they don't see any viable option, in terms of party or candidate).

Remember, for many decades, kongis were the single party. All castes voted for kongis only. The newer parties are only a recent phenomenon. It is not an absolute either. Yes, a party may have some core audience, but there are many migrants. It is frequently the migrants who decide the fate of the party.

Moreover, it is demonstrated that all caste identities can be over-ruled by a larger issue. Development is one such larger issue. Regional pride(Or linguistic pride) is also, such an issue. Hindutva(or RJB) is also such an issue, that can over-ride all caste identities and unite people for the cause. This is exactly what happened in RJB movement. So, instead of taking it to its logical conclusion, BJP regime tried to be too smart and bore the brunt.

Indian caste identities can be over-ridden by a larger framework. Kongis do not allow any such larger framework. They prop up the caste-identities. This is their game. The anti-kongi parties need to come up with larger issues that will unite all castes. Issues like development, regional pride, or Hindutva...

peter · Post by **peter** » 07 Jan 2013 17:45

Theo_Fidel wrote:
SwamyG wrote:TN clan and caste still rules....Irrespective of several reform movements, casteism is rampant
Swamy,

This is true of all of India. Why are you singling out TN as though things are worse here. [..]

But is'nt TN the first example of a state where Brahmins were booted out , almost like Kashmir, by the dravida nationalists?

Sought of an ethnic cleansing of a mild proportion?

peter · Post by **peter** » 07 Jan 2013 17:53

RamaY wrote:[..]
Imagine a scenario where BJP followed thru on its promise about Ram Mandir. It would have made the entire Bharat do a pilgrimage to that location (if you have any doubt check the Rama Silas that came from every village in Bharat). This would have reconnected the UP Hindus with rest of Bharat and made them self-aware. This reconnect would have happened in all "castes" (I am using this word consciously) of UP.
[..]

This analysis is wrong. The reason BJP lost is because the "India Shining" campaign was a pure lie. Nowhere India was shining. It was only shining in the imagination of BJP leaders' heads.