Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

[krisna]

There is no single solution. I notice that India remains a society where patronage is given out and valued.

You have a problem and I offer to solve it for you by talking to the local politician. He helps me out. He gets more respect from me and I get more respect from you. But the favor that I got for you through him is an out of turn gas connection or allotment of a housing plot. Some other guy has suffered but none of us gives a damn. In a law respecting non-patronage society this would not happen. I cannot help you using my influence with politico and he cannot help me using his power to do something illegal.

I get patients who are officials in various government departments and they offer me help in various ways. They are offering me things out of politeness, respect and gratitude because that is how Indian society works. We work by "influencing" key people - not by the working of an efficient government machinery. So only people with influence get things done. The others can go screw themselves.

No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them

All societies work this way. There is natural bond and affinity among members of the social groups. In some societies the doctors are held in high esteem and they are given favors for help.

Even in US it is the same thing among the people in the society. They are buddies in the YMCA, fitness clubs, country clubs, golf clubs, rotary clubs etc and favors are given and new business are done. This is normal in any open society where relations are built and it expands. Big countries need new relations and networks to be built since new generations become members of the productive society

It is true what has been mentioned by both Shiv and Acharya.
have had personal experience in both India and khanate. Bitter and favorable in sdre land and favorable in khanate.
had a bitter experinence in ukstan for similar reasons.

It is less in day to day activities in western countries relative to India that makes it worse. Hence common man is exposed to this favours(goor or bad) relatively less.
No wonder the "common" perception western nations better than sdre land.

[Manny]

Several of Swamijis are hand in glove with with power brokers. They have very high patronage from politicians, and the several of the Swamijis float in money. It may not surprise me if Congis asked some of the Swami's to issue statements to divert the attention.

While your theory might be true, however several religious leaders do feel women need to play second fiddle in our life. Even the sanyasees of the good Himalayan Academy, in Kauai, expect women to perform household chores ityadi onlee. And these monks are well respected in USA, India, Srilanka, Mauritius and Malaysia. Their stance on women needs to be changed.

The Babel clearly says

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Titus 2:1-5 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Misogyny is deeply enshrined in the Bible and the Quran

[devesh]

regarding Asaram Bapu, I'll repeat myself.
with friends like these, who needs the Islamics and the assorted Abrahamics?

[RamaY]

RamaY, I do not see Shiv's statement the way you do, honestly. I went back and re-read it again. This is not to say that he like many others cannot be political. But what he wrote made eminent sense to me. I even assumed, when you commented on that with the comparison you were claiming, this is what NM is aiming to do or has achieved already. But now you say Shiv made a political statement. Confused onlee !

RamaY: Some of us elsewhere, had called this a societal failure - collective responsibility, while you opposed our views and went on to use "collective punishment" term (a strawman argument). Here Shiv has put the onus on to the same entity - the society; and you readily agreed with his position here. You are right, we see what we want to see. And, most importantly the messenger is always important.

What Shivji said, at least the way I understood it, is
1. It is common for Indians to ask/offer/receive help from one another and in-return get 'influence'. This influence is used to get benefits from somewhere else. Since wealth cannot be created, it is just transferred from another social sector/program/area. So while it appears that one is benefiting from this favor/influence equation, it is in fact coming at someone else's cost. It works fine as long as we don't directly know/are-related to the other person at whose cost we are benefiting.

2. In law-respecting societies, this doesn't happen.

3. That no Indian "with power" will ever do anything that will reduce his/her influence. This is where the discussion becomes political because in India the "power" is supposed to come only thru elections (even though that may not be 100% the situation). We are not a kingdom of heaven, right?

My extrapolation to this was
NM is trying to break this paradigm by making caste, community, vote-banks etc irrelevant. But his detractors are calling him divisive and he is creating a society where muslims have no-alternatives and are so scared that they are voting for him (however small/big % that is)

And these very detractors claim to be from "reformed", "progressive" and "often have more wimmen educated than men" parts of India; but yet are divided by caste, community and form vote-banks that are so stubborn that NM is not acceptable to them, without giving any reason.

Responsibility
Coming to responsibility for this crime, it lies with those six rapists to begin with. Everything else are more preventive/proactive measures to ensure this doesn't happen again. This might include making public transportation a thoroughly/closely monitored service operation, new nationwide emergency response systems like 108/911, separating the police case registration from emergency response, changing laws to better serve the society etc.,

This has nothing to do with collective responsibility, unless I am missing something very basic. There is no way the law can punish the "collective". For heaven's sake, there is a possibility that one of the six who raped Jyothi may go scot-free just because he is below the 18yr mark, which was as arbitrary as any other age limit in current system. It is a different matter how scientific that 18yr mark is to begin with, because if it meant to identify the age when a boy/girl can participate in a sexual interaction knowingly then the age limit will be lower than that. That sixth boy after all raped Jyothi twice within those 2 hours (is it before or after mutilation is one fact the scientific minds might want to know).

[RamaY]

regarding Asaram Bapu, I'll repeat myself.
with friends like these, who needs the Islamics and the assorted Abrahamics?

Is he really a friend or is he a friend by association or is he a friend by media projection?

[SwamyG]

Manny: What has Koran or Bible have to do when the discussion is about some of the Hindu gurus in question? However, I do agree the status of women across the World has a lot left to be desired. While you might quote the other scriptures, people who want to quote Hindu scriptures will find passages to tarnish Hinduism as well. What becomes pertinent is not the scriptures but the utterances and actions of the current crop of religious leaders. And, I do think no religion can step onto a pedestal to claim it is holier/better than others.

RamaY: You are caught up in the "collective punishment" mode. I do not deny that the actual crime was committed by those 6 individuals, and that they should be punished by the law of the land. However, if you look at the reports and news, every day the society is bombarded by news where an individual or group of individuals committed such crimes on women. It is the state of the society - be it India or rest of the World. While the criminals can be punished for the particular crimes, how is the society going to prevent future crimes? It is a case of degradation of values in the society.

[RamaY]

SwamyG garu,

The govt should try its best to prevent all these crimes. The keyword is "preparedness". Unfortunately the govt didn't show its preparedness in punishing the police who were maintaining the "Hafta books" nor in providing the first response team after the crime or in addressing public anger seeing the way it handled the protest marches.

Moving forward, some of my recommendations:
1. Public transportation operators must have a standardized service, operations and tracking mechanisms all over the country. It should be managed by professional corporations or cooperatives (if needed Govt must offer help in forming these companies by professionals) as someone recommended.
2. All Public transportation vehicles are programmed to go thru a police tracking system every 10 minutes (this need not be physical verification but some type of mobile verification). This can be achieved by arranging electronic tracking systems in all traffic points and bus stops. If a vehicle misses its 10 minute check, it should be stopped at the next check point (within next 10 minutes). The system should be programmed to identify suspicious behavior (going in loops, no stops in bus stops etc.,)
3. First response teams are optimized to reach any area within 10 minutes of the call. Like in the developed countries, it should include a police vehicle and ambulance that includes forensic experts. Sufficient training is provide to these teams
4. Emergency response team are separated but tightly integrated from secondary police investigation teams. Anyone should be able to report a crime anywhere and police should take the responsibility of directing the case to the right police station.
5. Develop/Offer education/tools etc for women to send distress signals at free/low cost. Given the scales of economy, it shouldn't cost more than $5 per unit.

More than anything
6. Make the child/women molestation cases time bound. They should be given top priority over nonsensical police activities (sometimes including VIP security) such that the police file a complete scientific case within 30 days. Perpetrators caught within 30 days and verdict given in 6 months. Do not give more than one appeal to such cases.
7. Once confirmed the culprit is permanently castrated and/or put to death. I am worried about these guys coming out of jails even after 20 years, because the physical castration might make these guys sadists. There will be many false positives but that acts as a threat for future convicts.

For all this to happen, we need a leader who is not afraid of facing negative propaganda and "special interest groups" etc. in order to do the right thing, and who has better experience and capability than NM?

[SaiK]

regarding Asaram Bapu, I'll repeat myself.
with friends like these, who needs the Islamics and the assorted Abrahamics?

Is he really a friend or is he a friend by association or is he a friend by media projection?

There would be soon laws that prescribe section 228a IPC to all babooze whose name can be protected if they media and public go wild on him. Assuming desh allow such protection, we should start consider his name in the media read as "ram-ass pbuh".

[krisna]

Media misquotded Asaram Bapu, says spokesperson

Denying the controversial remarks of spritual Guru Asaram Bapu about the Delhi [ Images ] gang-rape victim, his spokesperson Nilam Dubey on Monday said that the media has created the whole issue by misquoting 'Bapu'.

as usual expected to deflect the real attention from the law and order and culpability of the real criminals.
Damage has been done.

[SaiK]

No, ramay, with seeking leadership, we are flawed at the problem in hand. We don't need leadership to the extent greater what they should do. We neither need criminals (current setup) nor any big time intelligence to solve the core problems.

Yes, our political system needs a big time change [process and policy based model]. WE have to be the leaders, [your collective theory applies here too]. WE don't need single man ownership on decisions. That is bad for dharmic concepts to flourish.

We have had enough of babooze, kings, batons, rapists and murderers. It is time we establish a change to respect honest citizens.

[RamaY]

I am not sure SaiK ji.

I wouldn't think the people who voted UPA2 to power wanted a govt that is corrupt, inept and irresponsible. They thought MMS would deliver all these things and he failed. Even tomorrow all the changes that we are proposing to the laws, government systems and civic infra has to be spearheaded by someone. I would call that person a project leader, whose term is limited to 5 yrs.

There is no guarantee that next leader will do what the people want, unless that leader is self-motivated to what s/he is supposed to do.

That is what separates a good leader from a ruler. Purushulandu Punya Purushulu Verayaa, Viswadabhiraama Vinura Vema

[Yayavar]

What viv you are pointing is also true, but they have been rendered useless and disrespected by the larger setup. Hence, you are thinking it as generalization of the negatives.. but I would say, you consider those people as specialization rather and leave it there, and pray they stay the same.

.

yes, well put. They are self-selecting and do get sidelined (usually). One might know honest police officers but the usual behaviour is what is operative. And 'patronage' is the more common behaviour as well thought the 'others' do exist.

[Muppalla]

All societies work this way. There is natural bond and affinity among members of the social groups. In some societies the doctors are held in high esteem and they are given favors for help.

Even in US it is the same thing among the people in the society. They are buddies in the YMCA, fitness clubs, country clubs, golf clubs, rotary clubs etc and favors are given and new business are done. This is normal in any open society where relations are built and it expands. Big countries need new relations and networks to be built since new generations become members of the productive society

<OT>
There is a name for it in the sofisticated language called as "Networking" or "Business networking". Same as caste networks that were build in India. We call the above as acceptable where as otherone as casteism.

On the otherday someone was talking about legalizing prostitution but it was legal once upon a time and was called as devadasi system which India abolished after independence.

We see the samething if they are in India and done by Indians then they are bad but with different name in the west then they are great and sofisticated.

Mental slavery is a very slow thing to go away.
</OT>

[RamaY]

A useful tidbit on Fast Track Courts in India form Beebs...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20930101

India's fast-track courts

Some 1,200 fast-track courts are operating in India as of March 2012

In Delhi, six fast-track courts are to be set up for the trial of cases related to crimes against women, especially rape. Some other states such as Punjab and Maharashtra are also setting up fast-track courts for this purpose. India has previously had fast-track courts to deal with terror cases and other crimes

In 2000, central government started a scheme for more than 1,700 fast-track courts to try to clear the backlog of cases clogging up the Indian judicial system, partly related to a shortage of judges. By March 2011, these courts had disposed of more than three million criminal cases

Funding is an issue because the central government said it could no longer fund them after March 2011, leaving future funding decisions to individual states.

1700 courts and 3 million cases in 10 years. And Napunsaka UPA2 doesn't have funds for these fast track courts and CSD etc but have money for NREGA and Cash to Hand programs

C-System is the only secular, inclusive and acceptable political system for S.TN

[svinayak]

Good points.
India being a society with centuries of heritage has built long term social groups which help each other and it is very flexible. This is still
The intervention of British and their education and modern social engineering with media is creating false social changes and fractures. This needs correction for creating harmony and stability.

Current Indian social distortions are the media and education faultlines created over last 30 years.

[SaiK]

RamaY, I am not saying you don't leaderships.. but the core leadership has to be from the people larger brains. It can come only from a policy board, commission setup, etc. or people like you and others here.

You can't expect any leader to change things in the current setup. The setup itself needs to change. A process is best only when the followers are following it. These are the two hands, but when the process itself is badly setup, then whoever leader comes up, is of no use.

Hence, the priority for the nation is clean the mess that we had setup since 1947, and never bothered to correct it for indic use.

After that, what you say takes shape better.

[Prem]

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-N ... -rape-case
Judge bans media from courtroom in India gang-rape case

Magistrate Namrita Aggarwal upheld the prosecutor's request that the media be barred from attending the proceedings, according to police spokesman Rajan Bhagat. Hundreds of journalists, lawyers from other cases and curious onlookers had crowded the courtroom where the five were to appear. Outside the courthouse complex, more than a dozen TV satellite trucks jammed the streets, and dozens of reporters — from India, the U.S., Japan and elsewhere — were waiting for news.
The five defendants later appeared before the magistrate, who scheduled another pre-trial hearing on Thursday that is expected to result in the case being sent to a special "fast-track" court. Indian courts are notoriously slow, with some cases dragging on for decades. The trial is expected to begin in the coming days. Indian rape trials are normally closed to the media.uthorities have charged the men with murder, rape and other crimes that could bring them the death penalty. The crime caused nationwide outrage, leading to massive protests.A sixth suspect, who is 17 years old, is expected to be tried in a juvenile court, where the maximum sentence would be three years in a reform facility.Prosecutor Rajiv Mohan said last week that a DNA test confirmed that the blood of the victim matched blood stains found on the clothes of all the accused.On Sunday, two of the defendants offered to become "approvers," or informers against the others, according to reporters present at the hearing. The two were presumably seeking lighter sentences.The companion of the student recounted in a television interview last week how the pair was attacked for 2 1/2 hours on a New Delhi bus before being thrown on the side of the road, where passersby ignored them and police debated jurisdiction issues before helping them. The student died at a Singapore hospital weeks after the Dec. 16 attack.

[RamaY]

Hence, the priority for the nation is clean the mess that we had setup since 1947, and never bothered to correct it for indic use.

Are you saying the Constitution of India is not sufficient and needs to change?

Why Saik garu, why

[SwamyG]

RamaY: I agree with you whole heartedly....
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1389332

[SaiK]

political system, governance, illegal activities, goondas, police, etc.. you name it where the system and setup is correct?

please don't escape by saying : it is implemented bad and not followed by the people at helm. a setup/process/laws needs to be corrected often till it is accepted by the 2/3rd majority. if people can misbehave and like shiv ji said, be allowed to participate to repeated crimes and illegal activities , then correction must happen.

[IndraD]

Asaram Bapu is at loggerheads with NaMo. NaMo has been strict with all religious people whether Hindu or ,uslim or christian in all parts of Gujarat. There have some activities including lands, murder etc in his ashram. NaMo is allowing law to catch up with it.

where is the evidence for this strictness? Why is law taking so long to catch up with him?

[JohnTitor]

1700 courts and 3 million cases in 10 years. And Napunsaka UPA2 doesn't have funds for these fast track courts and CSD etc but have money for NREGA and Cash to Hand programs

im sorry, but fast track courts dont help win elections. the people these courts would serve dont vote. NREGA and Aadhar cash recipients vote for our great leaders, why would they fund such useless courts when what we need is more handout programs ?

Our constitution is messed up.. after 300 years, the US constitution has only been amended a handful of times.. in 65 years, our constitution has been amended so many times, its no longer the same thing.

Only solution is a revolution - else this is how its always gonna be. Bet against me, but I've come to the conclusion india will never be a superpower. I feel this with a very heavy heart. But everything is going to the dogs in my beloved land

[RamaY]

Bade ji,

Here are the numbers from National Crime Records Bureau http://ncrb.nic.in/

I am not able to find the numbers from multiple years.. here is the data for 2010. As usual our Govt records are always few years old. What happened to Rajiv Gandhi National Informatics Centers, Sonia Gandhi National Women protection Cells and Rahul Gandhi Congress Investigation Bureau and Manmohansingh Klinn-Governance program?

----------------------Rape Cases<<<>>>>> Rape Victims
Population-----------Total Incest Other <<>>Total Incest Other--- Victims per 1L population
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gujarat......60,383,628 408 4 404 408 4 404.......... 0.68
Kerala........33,387,677 634 14 620 636 14 622.......... 2.05
Tamil Nadu..72,138,958 686 0 686 687 0 687.......... 0.88

Looks like in Kerala and TN a couple of instances have more than one rape victim, perhaps due to their more reformed, resourceful and hardworking ways....

To comfort the secular forces, according to this link

According to National Crime Record Bureau, in 2010 total 8,148 Crimes were recorded. Which rose in 2011 to 1,23,371.

This indicates thatGujaratis far ahead in Crime than many less developed states.

A 1500% increase in 1 year

[RamaY]

Here is 2011 data... for Crimes Against Women

[Bade]

I am glad you did finally look up the stats which was posted in the other thread a few days back.

The higher rate for KL can also be explained due to differences in reporting biases across states. But lacking data let it stand. From anecdotal evidence I know groping, eve teasing etc is quite prevalent in KL even 30 years ago. But they do report it too. Not sure whether reporting gets suppressed due to cultural sensitivity in other states.

[Cosmo_R]

regarding Asaram Bapu, I'll repeat myself.
with friends like these, who needs the Islamics and the assorted Abrahamics?

No need at all. You can bet your bippy that this will be used against Hindus.

Sometimes I wonder whether we should all embrace Sikhism and be done with it—at least their holy guys know which side they are on.

BTW, idiot Mohan Bhagat is not improving the image either.

Macaulyites are small potatoes compared to these dumases

[ramana]

Folks Please no more extraneous posts other than the Delhi gang rape related please.
Thanks for your participation.

ramana

[devesh]

I dont believe Mohan Bhagwat said whatever the media says.
On numerous occasions the RSS guys say one thing and media twists it to something else.
Whatever media says on anything related to RSS take it with pinch of salt...

[Raja Bose]

Gunga Din Zakaria weighs in as expected....

Is this the start of India's 'Arab Spring'?

[SriKumar]

Question to Delhi'ites:
From the TV images early on, it seemed like it was mostly young college students (17-25 years) who were protesting......at India Gate, Jantar Mantar, Raj Path (?) etc. It did not seem like the protestors were working-age people (say, 25-50 years).

Are the protests in Delhi still mainly a 'young student' driven or is there any participation from other age groups, say, 35 years and above? Can anyone comment on why other age groups do not seem motivated (if indeed, they are not protesting). Is it that they have an office job to go to and therefore have limited time to protest? Or is the cold weather ......or just apathy? Just trying to get a general feel here.....not looking for micro-accurate scientific answer. And on a related note, when do the colleges re-open after the winter break?

[ramana]

Gunga Din Zakaria weighs in as expected....

Is this the start of India's 'Arab Spring'?

No its not. DP by using only lathis reduced the potential for any color revolution. And Indian protesters were not miscreants and wanted only the antiquated IPC reformed, fast track courts set up and so and so forth. Even the opposition political parties were on same page.
Thank you FZ.

One can count on you always to muddy the waters. India is not dictator run Muddle East.

[RamaY]

The higher rate for KL can also be explained due to differences in reporting biases across states. But lacking data let it stand. From anecdotal evidence I know groping, eve teasing etc is quite prevalent in KL even 30 years ago. But they do report it too. Not sure whether reporting gets suppressed due to cultural sensitivity in other states.

Very scientific anal-sis indeed.

Explain it away Dhimmis, explain it away!

[shiv]

There is no single solution. I notice that India remains a society where patronage is given out and valued.

You have a problem and I offer to solve it for you by talking to the local politician. He helps me out. He gets more respect from me and I get more respect from you. But the favor that I got for you through him is an out of turn gas connection or allotment of a housing plot. Some other guy has suffered but none of us gives a damn. In a law respecting non-patronage society this would not happen. I cannot help you using my influence with politico and he cannot help me using his power to do something illegal.

I get patients who are officials in various government departments and they offer me help in various ways. They are offering me things out of politeness, respect and gratitude because that is how Indian society works. We work by "influencing" key people - not by the working of an efficient government machinery. So only people with influence get things done. The others can go screw themselves.

No Indian with power will ever do anything that will reduce his influence and his ability to bestow favours on others. He is not interested in regular democratic functioning, but working like a king who must be respected by those around him for the favours he does for them

All societies work this way. There is natural bond and affinity among members of the social groups. In some societies the doctors are held in high esteem and they are given favors for help.

Even in US it is the same thing among the people in the society. They are buddies in the YMCA, fitness clubs, country clubs, golf clubs, rotary clubs etc and favors are given and new business are done. This is normal in any open society where relations are built and it expands. Big countries need new relations and networks to be built since new generations become members of the productive society

The fact that "all societies work like this" ignores the fact that the US government does not control gas connections, petrol pump ownership. land sales, building licences, milk distribution, liquor licences, education licences, job appointments, transport licences, telephone connections (until recently). Laws in the US or in more law abiding countries are designed to minimize the inequality produced by the patronage system that exists everywhere. Indian government control maximizes the effect of patronage. So although this "occurs in all societies" there is a huge huge difference.

The point here is that government in India seeks control of the police so that the police cannot interfere with law breaking friends of politicians who do favors for each other. The police too get into the business of patronage.

I think it is easy to forget that the concept of "police" is having a set of weapon carrying strong-arm goons who can do violence, but are supposed to restrict that violence to what the law says. If they bend the law as per the wishes of politicians, they are being made to behave like any other goons. But the laws are written in such a way that if they (police) do not listen to the politician, they are breaking the law.

When a politician's son rapes a woman, he must get away. It is his privilege, having done so many favors for so many people. One woman's rights can always be sacrificed.

[shiv]

Heard a lecture by former chief justice Venkatachalaiah. He was speaking of violence against women and pointed out that the cases that make it to the news are mostly sexual crime by unrelated people. But he said that statistics show that the maximum numbers of sexual crimes are committed by known, trusted people such as uncles, cousins or other relatives. Most of these go unreported as cases are not booked .

[Cosmo_R]

"When a politician's son rapes a woman, he must get away. It is his privilege, having done so many favors for so many people. One woman's rights can always be sacrificed."

Droit du seigneur. Old concept

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

Our daughters are 'beta tested' (in the Indian sense)

[shiv]

"When a politician's son rapes a woman, he must get away. It is his privilege, having done so many favors for so many people. One woman's rights can always be sacrificed."

Droit du seigneur. Old concept

It happens in all societies eh? No need to worry then.

[RamaY]

^ no no, let us self hate.

But which self we should hate, The "reformed" one or the natural one?

How stupid we have been. Reform, progressive, educated, prosperous all are nothing but curse words and asuric to boot.

[negi]

Asuric, Indic, Daivic arrey baba please don't mix reality with mythology.

[shiv]

Asuric, Indic, Daivic arrey baba please don't mix reality with mythology.

Going seriously OT here. Asuras were never bad early in the Rig Veda. The were worshipped too - with Varuna being one of them. I find too many people on BRF nowadays referring to "Asuras or "Asuric" as bad

[negi]

^ Tell me about it; I wish I could be as intelligent and powerful as Ravana in real life; he did abduct Sita (okay we know it's portrayed like that) but there too he did not force himself upon her . By today's standards Ravan is a marayada Purushottam onlee. On the other hand Rama abandons his wife just because some joker casts doubts on her chastity ? Pakka Indic stuff hai boss.