Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Dec 25, 2012

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 11:35

This Hanuman has been kept small & puny deliberately.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Jan 2013 11:50

SSridhar wrote:This Hanuman has been kept small & puny deliberately.

And by our own people -netas and babus.
They want the option of a military solution off the table because:
1. It will erode thir primacy in the scheme of things, they want to be the biggest dog out there
2. An unnatural fear of making the military strong, some crazy warped thinking that a strong military somehow equates to a coup prone situation.

Our own babus and netas are damaging our nation's standing in some ways.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Jan 2013 11:56

29 baluch personnel need to pay for this, IA should have ensured this.
This was one incident where hot persuit is needed, if any.

The problem here is that politicians have taken the threat of war with pakistan off the table, so a calibrated response is not possible.
So unfortunately such incidents will continue since there is encouragement to the opposite party from our ruling clique

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Jan 2013 12:01

Forget war, even local skirmish is frowned upon, and will result in career ending pressures on officers and jawans.

If retaliation has to occur it has to be as an extention of the initial incident in continuity and immediate. It can then be passed on as a single event. Once the delay in retaliation occurs (so called "retaliation is a dish best served cold"), it is almost 100%sure, retaliation won't occur, and the original perpretators will have gotten away.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Jan 2013 12:22

Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor
Lance Naik Hemraj was from Mathura district, UP and Lance Naik Sudhakar Singh was from Siddhi district. MP. #RIP

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 09 Jan 2013 12:23

Hari Seldon wrote:From twitter:

‏@GabbbarSingh India is Hulk in reverse, Looks huge & mean when it's normal, gets smaller and puny when angered. #LoC

Its the system in India... remember its reaction to the anti-rape protests in dilli? Tear-gas, lathi-charge,... very aggressive. It reaction to anti-corruption protests in ramlila maidan?! Again, beating people(women and children) in the middle of the night... ruthless.

The same system is extremely placating when it comes to handling external threat(or even real internal threats like naxals or jihadis). Even the words are carefully chosen. Has pakistan been called 'maut ka saudagar'? No, the general word is 'unfortunate'.

How can anyone expect any real reaction from this bunch?! Pakis are being macho because they know about Indian system inside out. They know that this system will not punish them. This system is designed to lord over aam Indians, not to protect them from internal and external threats.

The pathetic nautanki(wasting crores of Indian money) with regard to Kasab most be compared with this incident to get a perspective.

MMS and his love for pakis is well-known. But, is it just one man show? Is MMS so powerful that he is making love to pakis brushing aside all other protests from all quarters? MMS, who does not have any independent stature in his own party(leave alone country) is able to dictate all the policy matters of India-pak without the consent of others?

MMS maybe the most blatant paki-lover, but he is not the only one. The entire system has to take the blame. Are there no checks and balances? If there are checks and balances, then they must have failed or compromised. So, if all the institutes or posts that were meant to check and balance the system have failed(or compromised), then why blame only MMS(as if he is an independent leader in the first place. It is open fact that he is an installed puppet who can be dislodged any day).

Anyway, this system will continue to give lifelines to pakis. There will be no revenge, hot or cold. There are so many ways of punishing the pakis that India can avail. In fact, India need not even punish(if it is so cowardly). Instead, merely boycotting all pakis is enough. But, the system in India is going in the opposite direction.

And what does system mean?
Neta, senior Babus, Judge, Media, NGO, elite(-businessman), Pandu, AND top-brass of Army.

Strictly speaking, the Judge, Pandu and top-brass of Army are nothing but Babus in Indian system.

To me, it seems like, the top-brass of army is part of the system. It seems, in recent times, V K Singh was an exception, not a norm.

The system is not meant to control others, it is meant to control Indians only. This system becomes very macho when it comes to dealing with general citizens(particularly law-abiding ones). The same system shivers when it has to deal with real threats. Most often the system bids for a compromise with such threats instead of trying to defeat them.

In this context, 1971 seems like a miracle.

But, the buck stops with the Neta in a democratic system. It is the Neta who has to take the responsibility and be accountable. The worst thing about the present condition is there is no real 'Neta' either. MMS is a babu who has been installed through a backdoor(Rajya Sabha), so he is not worried about being answerable to people. Those who installed him are enjoying the power without any responsibility or accountability. India has become similar to the pakiland, where civilian leadership has no power and is a puppet installed by the PA. PA enjoys the power without any responsibility or accountability.

Frankly, I'd be over the moon if as a reaction to these assassinations, India cuts down on all tamashas with pakis. No more bollywood, no more kirket, no more cultural exchanges, no more trades, no more visas to pakis, no treatment to pakis in India, nothing... just boycott. If India does that, that is more than I expect.

But I know that even that would not happen. So, there is no point in thinking of missiles, stock-manipulations, currency manipulations,...etc. Those are far-fetched, given the present situation.

Kurshit's response makes it amply clear that it is bizness as usual. Remember the rowdy response of the same kurshit to kejriwal? Now, this guy is so 'sophisticated' and 'calibrated'.

India seems to be caught in a vicious cycle of bad leaders and idiotic system... one reinforcing the other. Wonder when India can break free from this vicious cycle?!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Jan 2013 12:25

Too stupidly good !!* 1. During the Cold War, if USA launched a nuke-loaded missile, Soviet Satellites would inform the Soviet army in 3 seconds and in less than 45 seconds Soviet counter-missiles would be on their way.

2. Recent studies commissioned by US department of Defense included one on nuclear war between India and Pakistan :

3. This was the scenario................ The Pakistan army decides to launch a nuke-missile towards India . They don't need any permission from their government, and promptly order the countdowns.

Indian technology is highly advanced. In less than 8 seconds, Indian army detects the Pak countdown and decides to launch a missile in retribution. But they need permission from the Government of India . They submit their request to the Indian President.
The President forwards it to the Cabinet. The Prime Minister calls an emergency Lok Sabha session. The LS meets, but due to several walkouts and severe protests by the opposition, it gets adjourned indefinitely. The President asks for a quick decision. In the mean time, the Pak missile failed to take off due to technical failure. Their attempts for a re-launch are still on. Just then the Indian ruling party is reduced to a minority because a party that was giving outside support withdraws it.

The President asks the PM to prove his majority within a week. As the ruling party fails to win the confidence vote, a caretaker government is installed. The caretaker PM decides to permit the armed forces to launch a nuclear missile. But the Election Commission says that a caretaker government cannot take such a decision because elections are at hand. The Election Commission files Public Interest Litigation in the Supreme Court alleging misuse of power.

The Supreme Court comes to the rescue of the PM, and says the acting! PM is authorized to take this decision in view of the emergency facing the nation. Just then one of the Pak missiles successfully took off, but it fell 367 miles away from the target, on its own government building in Islamabad at 11.00 AM. Fortunately there were no casualties as no employee had reached the office that early.
In any case, the nuclear core of the missile had detached somewhere in flight. The Pakistan army is now trying to get better technologies from China and USA .

The Indian Government, taking no chances, decides to launch a nuclear missile of its own, after convening an all-party meeting. This time all the parties agree. Its three months since the army had sought permission.

But as preparations begin, "pro-humanity", "anti-nuclear" activists come out against the Government's decision. Human chains are formed and Rasta rokos organized.

In California and Washington endless e-mails are sent to Indians condemning the government and mentioning "Please forward it to as many Indians as possible". On the Pakistan side, the missiles kept malfunctioning. Some missiles deviate from target due to technical failures or high-speed wind blowing over Rajasthan. Many of them land in the Indian Ocean killing some fishes.

A missile (smuggled from US A) is pressed into service. Since the Pakistan army is unable to understand its software, it hits it original destination: Russia . Russians successfully intercepts the missile and in retaliation launches a nuclear missile towards Islamabad . The missile hits the target and creates havoc.

Pakistan cries for help. India expresses deep regrets for what has happened and sends in a million dollars worth of Parle-G biscuits. Thus India never gets to launch the missile. Pakistan never gets it right. And both live happily ever after!!!!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 12:45

The intriguing thing is that when the first reports surfaced, it looked like the usual cross-border firing which led to retaliation by the IA. Immediately the US reacted and thereafter the Chinese also advised calm. These reactions were followed by unusual attempts by the ISPR to keep the pot boiling through social media & network. The GoP called in the Indian embassy official to lodge a strong protest. Normally shelling across the border does not lead to the embassy official being called in to the Pakistani Foreign office. The IA has simply said that India retaliated to Pakistani cross border firing. There were reports that the IA attacked a Pakistani post by crossing the LoC. This was denied by the IA. It would be very difficult to imagine the IA violating the LoC unless something very serious had occured to it. We did not even do so during Kargil. Even IAF was operating from well within our boundaries at that time. If IA crossed LoC, then obviously, something more serious had taken place even at that stage. if IA did not cross over, then one can only surmise that the TSPA fabricated a lie to justify a future operation of brutality that they had already planned and about to execute. Since the two incidents happened in different sectors, far removed from each other, I suspect that the earlier incident was a ruse for later action.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Jan 2013 13:03

Whatever happened I want IA and In to launch punitive action and kill a few 100 paki soldiers and officers.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 09 Jan 2013 13:04

The retaliation neither need to be proportionate nor linear i.e. head for head. By all means we should escalate and capture Karakoram pass. For their every gruesome attack they should lose some important part of land. As soon as finishing this op we should start singing the peace song and ask for talks. These captured land will give us bargaining bag.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 09 Jan 2013 13:10

Rapist goon puppet yellows have finally obtained approval from Beijing to use the word mutilation...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 13:15

I expect the TTP to comment on this soon. If that happens, it would be another way-point in the integration of TTP with TSPA.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 09 Jan 2013 13:28

SSridhar, I disagree here. I see these events as a chain reaction and that worries me even more. I see this as their preparedness under the 'death by thousand cuts' doctrine. Means many of the IA posts are being studied and raiding parties are kept ready for quick action. My instict says pakis will not go through all that drama to kill couple of indian soldiers. More than that die during COIN operations throughout the year. This is a demonstration of TSPA doctrine. IMHO.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 09 Jan 2013 13:37

In other news...this beheading and mutilating people is a cultural artifact of Pakistani society.

Kidnapped Sikh man beheaded in Pakistan's tribal belt

Mohinder Singh, 40, was kidnapped from his shop in Tabbai village of Khyber Agency by unidentified armed men on November 20. Singh was a seller of herbal medicines, a trade that is common among Sikhs in northwest Pakistan.

Singh was beheaded yesterday and his body was mutilated before it was packed in a sack and dumped at Zakhakhel Bazaar in Khyber Agency, unnamed officials were quoted as saying by the Dawn newspaper.

...Daswant said his brother was diabetic and had been survived by his wife and nine children, including a polio-affected son.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 09 Jan 2013 13:39

arun wrote:What’s does “proportionate response” mean to our Congress Party led Government?

It means
this.

Our great leaders (NOT), will do what we do best. ASK & do NOTHING!

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 09 Jan 2013 13:42

Investigate 'inhuman mutilation' of jawans: India asks Pakistan

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 09 Jan 2013 13:53

More people were killed in a brutal way in Mumbai than the 2 Jawans. Our response to Mumbai has been to send dossiers and invite the scum Rehman Malik over and listen to his lectures on how Mumbai is like Babri.

And we still home for a strong response from Indian govt.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jan 2013 14:02

abhishek_sharma wrote:Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor
Intelligence sources tell HT's Atir Khan that the Pak Army soldiers who entered India & killed 2 jawans were from the Special Services Group.<SNIP>

I had commented as such.

This mutilation business is right up the sleeve of the SSG. After all, they are most inspired of the ghazis who don the khakhi uniform in PA.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2013 14:03

it fits the pattern of disruption orchestrated by state and/or non-state actors
de-railment of progress is what its about, hence the urgent call to washington and beijing
this assumes that the process was leading to a conclusion that the PA did not want... if the agreement was appeasement and the PA didn't want it... tells you all you need to know about the corrupt cess pit that is pakistan

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jan 2013 14:08

vivek_ahuja wrote: Spirit of the argument aside, I think you missed the discussion the other day about our lack of rockets for the Pinaka. Honestly Vivek, where is all this coming from? What has this whine got to do with the current incident on the border?

Also the absence of NVGs because BEL needs the contract.

As if the latest NVD would have allowed you to see them coming in? I mean seriously, what do people here think LOC looks like?

Also ball-less army commander. I suspect you're talking about the Lt. General Parnaik here...well, for starts, he is known as the biggest hawk in the establishment against withdrawal from the Siachen. And what he did was exactly what people in his position need to do...he was in the Paltan to control the tempers...this is not some street-corner fight between two hooligans.

Also bad equipment on border with good equipment only for US-India joint exercises.Again - has anyone seen equipment on the border? Well, it seems to have done well in thwarting entry by piglets. And for god's sake, we're talking about SSG here...and that too a very small team...which entered into an area between LOC and fence. No amount of good equipment can prevent such an action.

<SNIP>

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jan 2013 14:19

Anujan wrote:More people were killed in a brutal way in Mumbai than the 2 Jawans. Our response to Mumbai has been to send dossiers and invite the scum Rehman Malik over and listen to his lectures on how Mumbai is like Babri.

And we still home for a strong response from Indian govt.

Did you mean HOpe, after all our leadership and Pakistan Army is joined at the HIP , aint it.

why should someone sitting in cushy Luttyens care the jawan dying at the border, he will more concern about his Bank accounts, family in foreign countries.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 09 Jan 2013 15:45

As expected pak has denied crossing of LoC and killing. As I was saying earlier this is called 'art of deniability'. Let army act and then politicians deny. Now what are we going to do? send another dossier? Already GoI has said in the statement that India will respect LoC. So now army crossing and punishing pakis is out of the question.

What kind of bafoons are running the government and army? Why didnt army hammered when the iron was hot? Now what? Pakis must be celebrating three cheers in their HQ while our idiots are drafting new protest letter. WTF. $%&@£

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 09 Jan 2013 15:47

First Pakistan denies everything...
Pak denies cross-LoC attack; claims 'ground verification' done

then our side accepts and declares "attack should not be escalated".
Mutilation of jawans unacceptable, but attack should not be escalated: Salman Khurshid

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 09 Jan 2013 16:08

meanwhile BJP wants to shame pakistan in the world. hey bhagwan. Looks like they are on the mission of collecting shame-pakistan certificates from all possible nations and hang them on the wall...a 'wall of shame' they call.

kahan se paida hote hai yeh log?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jan 2013 16:12

abhijitm wrote:meanwhile BJP wants to shame pakistan in the world. hey bhagwan. Looks like they are on the mission of collecting shame-pakistan certificates from all possible nations and hang them on the wall...a 'wall of shame' they call.

kahan se paida hote hai yeh log?

Err what else can they do, as Yindoo fundamentalists the National, International and Indian Business community neutered them for taking a too aggressive stance on Operation Parakram.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 16:42

Anindya wrote:then our side accepts and declares "attack should not be escalated".
Mutilation of jawans unacceptable, but attack should not be escalated: Salman Khurshid

We have a very unwise person as our Foreign Minister. He will outdo his immediate predecessor, it seems. Salman Kurshid 's grand father was Zakir Hussain who opted to stay in India at the time of Partition while his brother migrated to TSP and became a federal minister there. I am not saying that cross-border familial relationships influence decisions. Just wanted to share a tidbit.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 09 Jan 2013 16:53

Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor
At the Rajouri airstrip where the 2 Lance Naiks were honoured a short while ago. | pic.twitter.com/Ygc78RPt

Shiv Aroor ‏@ShivAroor
Just chatted with an Army jawan at Rajouri after the honour ceremony. His words to me: "Rajputana Rifles unit tha sir. Badla to lenge hi."

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 17:01

Retribution must be swift, disproportionate, a lesson-learning experience for TSPA, backed by GoI, and be made public when over. Of course, we will not indulge in barbarity.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Jan 2013 17:12

SSridhar wrote:Of course, we will not indulge in barbarity.

then there is no point in retribution.

TSPA learns the type of lessons only TTP can teach them.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 18:25

X-post from the other thread
From NightWatch

Indian press reported a second security incident occurred on 8 January in a central sector of the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir State. The Indians claim that a Pakistan Army team killed two Indian soldiers while operating a half kilometer on the Indian side. According to the press, one of the Indian soldiers was decapitated and his head taken back to the Pakistan side of the Line of Control. The Indian Army said the Pakistan Army team was driven back across the border after a 30-minute gun battle. It also confirmed that the body of one of the soldiers had been mutilated. Indian military authorities have protested the incident to their counterparts, but the Pakistanis deny any action took place. Comment: The only explanation provided by the Indians for the two incidents this week is a sudden increase in militant infiltration from Pakistani Kashmir into Indian Kashmir. The normal time for infiltration, however, is late autumn to help the Kashmiri militants prepare for winter. The timing of the incidents relative to the promulgation of a new Pakistan Army doctrine last month is suspicious. The new doctrine establishes suppression of internal security threats as a top priority for the Pakistan Army. Hard liners, especially in Pakistan's intelligence service, insist that India remains the highest priority threat. They also disdain Army support to civil law and order authority as a police task. They have the motive, means and opportunity to punctuate their argument with manufactured incidents along the Line of Control in Kashmir. This is a hypothesis at this time. The probability of escalation remains low, especially if hardliners primarily are attempting to make a point to the National Security Council of Pakistan.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jan 2013 18:29

Then the USA and Saudi should called for a religious trip along with thier families and be taken before a firing squad, such genepool is dangerous for Humanity at large.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 09 Jan 2013 18:30

True to its form, beeb reported "India claims its soldier have been beheaded".

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 09 Jan 2013 18:32

It is also sad that we have to thank and vicariously take pleasure when TTP kills and behead TSPA turds. It is as if we can't act on our own. Wait for time to take its own course like giving natural death to these buggers, or wait till US comes to its own senses and cuts of aid because it hurts them etc. As far as we are concerned we just don't act in self interest and security of our own people and those who die for the country.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 18:35

TSP terms Indian allegations "baseless & unfounded"
Typical TSP reaction. It did not accept for a long time that 26/11 was by TSP terrorists. Even today it does not accept that its Army and Navy were involved in that act.

“These are baseless and unfounded allegations,” said a statement issued by the Foreign Office. “Pakistan is prepared to hold investigations through the United Nations Military Observer Group for India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) on the recent ceasefire violations on the Line of Control.”

The statement said it was important that serious efforts be made to maintain the progress and improvement achieved by the neighbouring countries in the dialogue process and bilateral relations, emphasising that “negative propaganda” be avoided.

A senior military official in Islamabad had earlier denied that Pakistani troops had been involved in any attack, similarly claiming that India was using “propaganda” to divert attention from a deadly raid on Sunday. {The Indian Army killed its own troops}

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2013 18:40

DGMOs contact - DAWN

“Indian authorities were informed that Pakistan has carried out ground verification and checked and found nothing of this sort happened as being alleged by India,” the official told reporters in a text message.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Jan 2013 18:41

SSridhar wrote:Retribution must be swift, disproportionate, a lesson-learning experience for TSPA, backed by GoI, and be made public when over. Of course, we will not indulge in barbarity.

SSridhar garu,

In 1989 there was a Hindi film "Elaan-e-jung", starring Dharmendra, etc. It had a song titled "Dosto Se Dosti, Dushmano Se Dushmani". For some reason, I had to think of it.

We have to ask ourselves what is the meaning of "Dushmano Se Dushmani"? It should mean something more than "Main tumse kootti hoon"!

I don't think we should leave barbarity and gruesomeness as the sole preserves of Pakislamists/Taliban. Actually they thrive on this. They show pride in it that they are the most gruesome bunch and nobody can come close to their gruesomeness. They are right in the sense that such gruesomeness does have an enormous psychological effect on their "enemy", on the Munafiqun and the Kufr. Thousands other ideologues across the world harvest this gruesome shown by some Islamist at some place in the world, by embracing this gruesomeness as the material of which they themselves are made, and through this gruesome act exert fear on others, in their localities, on the streets. A show of gruesomeness by a single Islamist anywhere contributes an aura of fearlessness and invincibility in all the Islamists of the Ummah!

If the Kufr simply get nauseated and disgusted by their acts of barbarity and keep on condemning them as a "Standard Operating Procedure" and patting ourselves on the back that we are more "civilized" than them, thus retaining some composure by balancing our "terror" with a sense of "civilizational superiority", then I believe we would be playing on a losing wicket.

Retribution where some people get killed, be they civilians or even from their ranks, does not really mean much to them. They were just collateral damage, fodder for the war with the Kufr. They can be replaced. The Muslim women are working overtime in breeding factories, whose sons would be harvested in the cause of Jihad. So a retribution is hardly any loss, simply another opportunity to call the faithful to arms!

Human lives are not what matter to these people, let alone any morals according to which humans live. I had advocated long time back - "Land for Terror".

I also advocate "Terror for Terror"! We simply cannot let Pakis win the game of GRUESOMENESS. Taliban today evoke some terror among their detractors, not simply because of bombings, of which there are not many these days, but because of the sheer gruesomeness of their acts on humans. The TSPA have to now follow that scale of gruesomeness too! For the faithful, the gruesomeness of the barbarous act has become a sign of level of piety, because the wrath of Allah cannot be a mere slap on the wrist, and so it needs a new scale of measurement and Taliban are providing it.

This war is not being fought for preserving life, or preserving some honor, or even preserving land. The stakes are the fear share in the mind of the enemies - the sheer terror among the enemy. A terrorized enemy loses the heart to fight!

So I would urge, don't let the Pakis have a monopoly on terror and gruesomeness. We can show our civility in how we choose our enemies, but not in what we do to them once we get our hands on them!

I don't expect many to agree with me on this, but just wanted to get my take on the psychological war of terror going on, which is at the moment very one sided.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Jan 2013 18:50

For a starting any Paki we kill should get instant cremation!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Jan 2013 18:54

SSridhar wrote:DGMOs contact - DAWN
“Indian authorities were informed that Pakistan has carried out ground verification and checked and found nothing of this sort happened as being alleged by India,” the official told reporters in a text message.

They are openly laughing at us. This is how brazen they have become after the aman ki tamasha and sharml el sheik with rabid peacenik and compulsive peace prize seeker at the helm

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 09 Jan 2013 18:54

Grow up! Tit for tat is not Pakistan policy: Hina Rabbani

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 130109.htm

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2013 18:57

rajesh - i don't agree with you. the answer to barbarity is not more barbarity, even if it involves killing the enemy
that just serves to create == which we don't need
disproportionate response yes, but not using their methods