Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 09 Jan 2013 00:43

svenkat wrote:If narendrabhai has to have any chance of winning elections at all-India level,he has to leave BJP.
.

it would be really stupid on his part if he does that. He will commit this stupidity only if he suffers a bout of megalomania like BJP's leadership of 2004.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 09 Jan 2013 01:24

Sushupti wrote:
svenkat wrote:If narendrabhai has to have any chance of winning elections at all-India level,he has to leave BJP.
.
it would be really stupid on his part if he does that. He will commit this stupidity only if he suffers a bout of megalomania like BJP's leadership of 2004.

BJP has some leadership issue in that some leaders are acting with crab mindset. When it comes to vote-getting, after all elections are about that aspect, no one but Modi is capable of going across India to appeal for voters. So if Modi leaves BJP, BJP will leave with him also.

In AP which is not at all a BJP state, I don't see any issue for Modi to campaign. Telugu BJP leaders, while dunce they are, have been projecting Modi achievements for their own campaign. So already enough prep and setup for campaign is already there for Modi to campaign across India.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Jan 2013 02:00

Arjun:
Other than one or two Economics & Accounting classes during my lifetime, I am no economist. Ignoring for the moment the different school of economics in India and elsewhere (because the recent global economic meltdown has shown that no particular school has found footing or can dicate onto others), a government has to work for the welfare of its citizens. Do you agree or disagree?

It is you who brought in Western ideologies into the picture, no? So in your frame how is BJP different from INC when it comes to social ideologies? And please pause yourself in patronizing me for the moment, and focus on some discussions. I will admit, I know very little about hi-funda stuff.

Gus: Yeah, NM joining INC if far fetched. I admit

I was making a point. You won't believe, someone did talk about Stalin joining AIADMK. But however, NaMo is built differently.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 09 Jan 2013 05:16

Supratik wrote:NM needs the Sangh superstructure. So him leaving BJP or succeeding after leaving BJP is not realistic. He has to manipulate/bulldoze his way through. I hope we see some movement in the next few months.

Sangh superstructure? Sangh members have lost faith in the individuals that run the organization. Modi already has the support base of Sangh. They will rally behind him.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 09 Jan 2013 06:00

NM won't leave the BJP voluntarily, IMO. Heck, even BSY didn't. D4 trying to do a BSY on NM is far-fetched, almost laughable. Doesn't mean it won't be tried though - shiny new lokayukta and all in the sad-dil. D4've consistently shown themselves 10 steps behind him in their thinking.

IMO, NM needs to take over the BJP internally. Becoming BJP prez is first step - by popular (as in BJP membership's vote) preferably. In the past, NM has gotten his way on smaller issues but did seem like he had to burn up some accumulated capital.

The third successive win earned him a war chest in capital but it will depreciate fast. He has to act while the clock is ticking. And I've no doubt behind the scenes, the pieces are moving - far and away from media ~~glare~~ snare (Tankgawd!).

Far be it for me to claim paanwala sources into BJP workings but would be awesome to know what is happening in terms of jostling for organizational appointments and positions - how many of these are NM men and how many are D4 people....

And contrary to Sankuji's pious assertions, I have no doubt NM faces much opposition within the RSS brass (not within the ground level cadre though).

The reason I root for NM over the anti-NM part of the RSS brass as also for a slightly right-of-centre economic approach for India (against the INC's leftist economic ~~pogrom~~ program) is because it has shown it works on the ground (and not merely because of a couple of recent victories, as sankuji alleged).

Anyway, these are petty squabbles. EOD, we all are on India's side. The difference lies in how to get there. Given how strongly many seem wed to extant positions, hard to make noble claims and appeals to change thinking. Better it is to recognize that to take ourselves and our opinions too seriously is the road to nowhere...

I know I'm not NM. Nowhere near that strong. The constant hostile media glare, the highbrow sneers, the browbeating, the blackmail, the figurative bludgeoning of constant abuse, the calumny - white lies repeated, regurgitated and revomited about globally.... sheesh. I know of too many that would bend at the first sign of pressure. Our man fought back with weapons of his choice in a time and place of his choice - with deeds, proven and demonstrate-able governance record and went on to win only.

chalo, what started as a 2-liner post meandered into a multi-para ramble. Only. jai ho.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 09 Jan 2013 10:21

SwamyG wrote:Arjun:
Other than one or two Economics & Accounting classes during my lifetime, I am no economist. Ignoring for the moment the different school of economics in India and elsewhere (because the recent global economic meltdown has shown that no particular school has found footing or can dicate onto others), a government has to work for the welfare of its citizens. Do you agree or disagree?

It is you who brought in Western ideologies into the picture, no? So in your frame how is BJP different from INC when it comes to social ideologies? And please pause yourself in patronizing me for the moment, and focus on some discussions. I will admit, I know very little about hi-funda stuff.

Gus: Yeah, NM joining INC if far fetched. I admit I was making a point. You won't believe, someone did talk about Stalin joining AIADMK. But however, NaMo is built differently.

SwamyG, My apologies if I came across as patronizing.

But your equating Modi and the Dynastic party as being the same in ideology really riled me...Would you say for example that the Republicans and Democrats in the US are both the same in ideology (Ok foreign affairs maybe, but in other areas)? Both would certainly believe that they are working towards the welfare of US citizens - but the outlook and means are typically quite different.

If the fact that I used Western names for these ideologies bothers you - then we can certainly look at more Indic / Sanskrit names. But to say there is no ideological difference is very far from the truth.

In summary, I would say there are two distinctive aspects of Modi's appeal -

1) His ideological approach to issues is very different, and the difference between this ideology (Moditva) and the current Dynastic consensus in India NEEDS to be understood and recognized

2) Even if one discounts ideological differences - there doesn't seem to be anyone who comes close to him (not within the BJP and certainly not within the INC) in sheer leadership quality and execution capabilities.

Just fyi SwamyG - I consider myself a Liberal too...just not a 'left liberal' (using Western terms till we identify suitable Indic ones)

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Jan 2013 10:32

Arjun wrote:Ok Anand, you haven't answered my earlier question - what makes you such a big supporter of the Dynasty?

Vested interest?

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 09 Jan 2013 14:12

All these talks of Modi being different than BJP different than Sangh is naivety. They are one and the same. Different manifestation of Sangh itself. Just like the different manifestation of Parmatma through Maya. Thinking Modi leaving BJP is stupidity. However I must admit that there are many outsiders in top positions in BJP. The lawyers' panel i.e. Jaitley, Ravishankar, (previousely) Jethmalani, Sushma etc. is not originated from RSS. They don't have any vote bank whatsoever behind them. Earlier this panel was not as influential but after the exit of ABV they became whole and sole of BJP. THIS is the problem point for both Sangh and Modi. Advani is still in favor of Modi but there is a great question mark on how much Advani has his own say in the BJP. The congress is directionless at the moment but then there is not much contrast with regard to BJP top brass as well thanks to this lawyers' panel. Not only the nation but most of the BJP leadership is also looking at Modi as the ultimate savior of them and the nation. I believe the earlier BJP declares Modi as the PM candidate the better for tempo building.

On a side note, Kaangress has also procured its own lawyers' panel i.e. manusinghvis, khur-shit etc. Wonder why this enchantment for the lawyers? The trend is certainly more visible on BJP's side. Probably because they are the best doers of arguments' trade and master of twisting the facts. They are certainly proving efficient on TV - i'm talking about both BJP and congi.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 09 Jan 2013 19:58

The problem with Namo is not his popularity all over India, but his organizational understanding outside of Gujarat and Himachal (prabhari for these states before becoming CM). BJP (or for that matter any party) when it comes to power, it is combination of a popular leader and the organizational strength. In 1990 BJP tehre were popular leaders, but there were astute state prabharis - O P Mathur, Narendra Modi, master strategist - Nanaji, Govindacharya etc etc. As 1990 rolled by BJP gained power and politicians from state started becoming CM and central ministers. They sometime clashed with these RSS appointees, sometime bypassed them. The RSS prabharis also either left for God's dham or left the party. Now you have SK as strategist and (recent news other RSS prabhari of Uttrakhand/Jharkhand/Karnataka probabbly not being that effective). One other important person, PM(ahajan) loss broke that feedback loop b/w RSS and BJP at electoral level).
NM can score so wonderfully in Gujarat is because he knows that state inside out (starting from serving as a Tea stall boy to managing small elections in the state to becoming prabhari of all). He is a gifted campaigner. Before BJP came to power in Gujarat, it had something called Nyay Yatra, that brought BJP to power there, brainchild of someone by the name of NM. He had another brilliant idea called rath yatra of 1990 (RJM was someone else brainchild), that changed the face of politics and made ABV PM. He also had few other yatras that were not that successful (in one being with MMJ from Kanyakumari till JK). His winning Gujarat is no surprise. His winning outside of Gujarat is the challenge.
NM has always been an organizational man (and his ticket to success and victory). He added crowd pulling face of his when others failed (Keshubhai or Shankersingh). But lets not get ahead of ourselves, he wins mainly because of the organization (that he help built and was in charge of) and less with Charisma.
Outside of Guj he has Charisma, but he needs that organizational strength. Current crop of BJP and RSS prabharis are not up to scratch (just going by election result). The first priority is to get that going, right people, right place (they are there; a good leader job is to find and empower them). 2014 is for BJP (or Namo) to win or lose. The charisma side of the equation is solved (and that alone will not win the election), the org side needs to be put in place.
I have my own theory on what went wrong (with examples), in the winning formula that BJP had, but that's for some other day.
rgds,
fanne

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 09 Jan 2013 20:20

RoyG, thats what I meant - he needs the entire "machinery" to work for him. Having said that the serious challenges are 1) getting to be the PM candidate (this is why you need primaries), 2) connecting with the rural masses outside Guj (I think he will do fine with the urban vote).

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Jan 2013 23:12

No apologies needed saar, all is well that ends well onlee

Thanks for bringing in Republicans and Democrats into the discussion, because you help me in making my point about 'Americanizing' Indian politics. We use the labels applicable in one particular framework and apply to another expecting similar results. For example, are BJP and INC different on abortion, on domestic economic policies?

No it is not about the language - English or Sanskrit does not matter. It is about how different the parties are on the ground. In the Indian political context, what is a liberal and which party does he identify with? Who is a conservative and which political party does he identify with?

To me either party does not neatly fit into the liberal or conservative. They have a mix of people from all thoughts. The big difference between INC and BJP (in terms of leadership) is that in INC, the party workers and leaders clearly look upon to the Nehru-Gandhi family. Of course INC has been the party that has been on the appeasing spree, etc

I brought out the fact that an individual should not be rejected, because he hails from a political family and has a rich political heritage. He should be rejected because of his thoughts and actions.

If INC projects Rahul as the PM candidate, why do you think Indians need to reject INC and/or Rahul? Is your opposition to INC and its policies, or is against Rahul (Sonia, Priyanka etc).

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 09 Jan 2013 23:22

http://youtu.be/u9oRoOfZpgY?t=15m

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 09 Jan 2013 23:46

Can someone translate?

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 10 Jan 2013 00:38

RoyG wrote:Can someone translate?

He says:
I talked to the PM once.
Crowd Starts Laughing.
He responds:
I did not say that the PM talked to me...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jan 2013 02:17

SwamyG garu,

If only the world was so simple. A "dynasty" is a network representing a confluence of interests. It is only Menaka/Varun Gandhi who was pushed out of this network. Rest of them are part of it. None of them have been out of it.

So Rahul Gandhi completely represents the continuity of that ruling network. An individual who is at the highest point of this network cannot be treated like an ordinary individual like you and me. To treat him as an individual instead of a dynast, he should be showing an independence and in many ideas opposing those networks. Rahul hasnt shown an independent bone in his body, i.e. he politically is purely a dynast not an individual.

PS: By the way, to see him individually, I have one question. WHat are his individual achievements? None. So what is there to critique in his useless individual life except possibly drugs and massive corruption.
http://rahulgandhiachievements.com/

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Jan 2013 02:27

fanne ji,
nice analysis. +108.

And thats the reason, it would be important to start early, that means the sooner Modi is accepted as the PM candidate of NDA, the greater the time for Modi and the organization to garner more support. And also to iron out any internal differences. Last minute announcements should be avoided in such scenario.

What I have seen is that Modi-opposers have already used all their criticisms on earlier occasions. People have listened to it and brushed it aside. Modi is a double dhamaka because he has both development and hindutva in his armory, apart from the oratory and charm. Generally, these two are seen as mutually exclusive. Either this or that. But, Modi is seen as a combination of the two. Of course, he also has the backward-card that he has not used so far. This is a nuclear option that may be feared by likes of SP and BSP. He need not even play it brazenly, he just needs to hint at his humble background and that in itself can have huge impact(especially, if his opponent is Raul Baba).

Also, there are bizness networks that like Modi. Ramoji Rao seems to be a Modi supporter. Ambanis and Tata seem to be part of Modi-for-PM brigade. And several others. Many of these big bizness sharks are the funders of the political parties and can make a vital difference in alliance formation.

There seems to be an anti-kongi wave in India. The question is can NDA harness it or not...

Modi is the best bet for this. Modi is the most known face and his track-record on development is well-known through out India.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jan 2013 02:45

johneeG garu,

Ramoji Rao of eenadu has been brought to his knees by congress and YSR. He has been completely clipped out of Andhra, all non telugu channels have been sold. Even telugu ETV he had to sell 49%. Rumor that it was by a front company of Big bro Ambani.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 10 Jan 2013 02:57

Virupaksha wrote:johneeG garu,

Ramoji Rao of eenadu has been brought to his knees by congress and YSR. He has been completely clipped out of Andhra, all non telugu channels have been sold. Even telugu ETV he had to sell 49%. Rumor that it was by a front company of Big bro Ambani.

Sure. He was harassed by the YSR before YSR's death. It is no longer the case. Per my recent observations, Sakshi paper is STILL inserted (for free) into Eenadu paper to sell and Eenadu is still gold standard paper in Telugu. Reason to sell could be due to his own heir's death due to cancer. He may have sold non-AP stakes to Ambani's media network - not any front company.

He is one of main persons to glue any BJP-TDP alliance so his presence still has weightage.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jan 2013 03:03

ShyamSP wrote: Sure. He was harassed by the YSR before YSR's death. It is no longer the case. Per my recent observations, Sakshi paper is STILL inserted (for free) into Eenadu paper to sell and Eenadu is still gold standard paper in Telugu. Reason to sell could be due to his own heir's death due to cancer. He may have sold non-AP stakes to Ambani's media network - not any front company.

He is one of main persons to glue any BJP-TDP alliance so his presence still has weightage.

I know that this was done at the time of launch. Is it being done even now??

Ramoji Rao has still some influence. But his heydays are gone. His sales were before his son Suman died. It was right after YSR's orgy of destruction on margadarsi.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 10 Jan 2013 03:33

Virupaksha wrote:
ShyamSP wrote: Sure. He was harassed by the YSR before YSR's death. It is no longer the case. Per my recent observations, Sakshi paper is STILL inserted (for free) into Eenadu paper to sell and Eenadu is still gold standard paper in Telugu. Reason to sell could be due to his own heir's death due to cancer. He may have sold non-AP stakes to Ambani's media network - not any front company.

He is one of main persons to glue any BJP-TDP alliance so his presence still has weightage.
I know that this was done at the time of launch. Is it being done even now??

Ramoji Rao has still some influence. But his heydays are gone. His sales were before his son Suman died. It was right after YSR's orgy of destruction on margadarsi.

Yes. Very recently I saw they delivered 4 times in 2 weeks I stayed in Hyderabad that too when my relative gave strict warning that they don't pay anything (even for Eenadu) if delivery company does it like that. So Sakshi was paying for Sakshi and Eenadu papers (double the cost)

He was suffering from cancer for 3-4 years and still he was working till he died. Great work ethic. So his death was not sudden and so sales were possibly due to him.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 05:41

Sushupti wrote:
http://youtu.be/u9oRoOfZpgY?t=15m

Forget the parts where he raises laughs in his inimitable style - this is a talk where he is holding forth on topics in innovation and technology. Which other politician has even 20% of his ability to inspire his audience on matters of this nature ?

Rahul, Sonia, MMS, Jayalalitha, Nitish ?? Give me a break

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jan 2013 06:31

ShyamSP wrote:
Virupaksha wrote: I know that this was done at the time of launch. Is it being done even now??

Ramoji Rao has still some influence. But his heydays are gone. His sales were before his son Suman died. It was right after YSR's orgy of destruction on margadarsi.
Yes. Very recently I saw they delivered 4 times in 2 weeks I stayed in Hyderabad that too when my relative gave strict warning that they don't pay anything (even for Eenadu) if delivery company does it like that. So Sakshi was paying for Sakshi and Eenadu papers (double the cost)

He was suffering from cancer for 3-4 years and still he was working till he died. Great work ethic. So his death was not sudden and so sales were possibly due to him.

interesting. I know that eenadu pays the least of all newspapers in terms of sales commission to the delivery companies. So Jagan is absorbing so much of losses. Eenadu charges the highest to a consumer.

There were rumors around 1-2 years ago that Jagan was losing over 50 crores a month on sakshi and was bleeding dry. I wonder how he is able to continue taking them. Kiran and co put small fences in terms of newer acquisitions of cash though their ill gottens wealth might be too vast.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 09:46

SwamyG wrote:Thanks for bringing in Republicans and Democrats into the discussion, because you help me in making my point about 'Americanizing' Indian politics. We use the labels applicable in one particular framework and apply to another expecting similar results. For example, are BJP and INC different on abortion, on domestic economic policies?

SwamyG, I have come across your views on 'labels' and American terms before, & I would agree only partly with these views.

American labels which relate to social / religious divides - eg 'liberal' vs 'conservative' are NOT translatable to India. But the economic divide in terms of 'right of center' and 'left of center' are absolutely universal and just as much applicable to India as the US.

Any school of thought that believes that focus on economic growth is of lesser importance to immediate spend on redistribution and HDI, and that fiscal deficits do not matter is a 'left of center' school. The school of thought (like Bhagwati's) that believes that a focus on economic growth, prudent fiscal policy, small government and facilitation of private enterprise is key to both development and reduction in social inequities, as well as results in better long-term HDI is a 'right of center' approach.

'Liberal' and 'Conservative' in social terms do not have any meaning in India. And that's because of the difference in ethos of the underlying religions. Christianity is dogma-based - Hinduism is inherently liberal. If a 'conservative' is a person who sticks by the tenets of his or her religion - then in the case of Hinduism the 'conservative' actually turns out to be a 'liberal'...So that is definitely a paradox.

To me either party does not neatly fit into the liberal or conservative. They have a mix of people from all thoughts. The big difference between INC and BJP (in terms of leadership) is that in INC, the party workers and leaders clearly look upon to the Nehru-Gandhi family. Of course INC has been the party that has been on the appeasing spree, etc

In economic terms, Modi and the Dynasty can definitely be neatly bracketed. Modi is in the Bhagwati camp / rightist ideology, the Dynasty is leftist/Amartya camp.

The 'liberal', conservative' social labels cannot be applied - but that doesn't mean that there are not several other strong markers of each sides ideology. And these are-

1. INC believes in politics of appeasement, victimhood & casteism. Moditva does not focus on caste distinctions, appeasement or casteism and is meritocratic

2. The Dynasty has a negativist, low-self image on what India and Indians can achieve; the ideology denigrates Indian traditions. Moditva is aspirational, and focused on setting a high-bar for India and Indians. It believes that India needs to live upto the greatness of her past.

3. The Dynasty believes that all ideologies can be tolerated to live and proseletyze in India even if these same ideologies are not themselves tolerant of others. Moditva is not likely to offer the same tolerance for propagation of intolerant ideologies.

How the eff do you say in spite of all of these clear differences that the two ideologies are not dissimilar ?

If INC projects Rahul as the PM candidate, why do you think Indians need to reject INC and/or Rahul? Is your opposition to INC and its policies, or is against Rahul (Sonia, Priyanka etc).

I thought my introductory post was sufficiently self-explanatory - but apparently not.

My opposition to Sonia / Rahul is based on

1. The Ideology of this party (leftist economics + ideology that promotes politics of casteism, appeasement & victimhood. An ideology that is self-denigratory, and an ideology that actively tolerates and appeases other intolerant ideologies.

2. The fact that it is a Dynastic party - and an eggregiously Dynastic party at that.

3. The execution record of the Dynasty in governance, corruption, economics and most other matters

4. The extreme lack of leadership / achievement in the Dynasty. Compare that leadership quality with what we have with Modi - ridiculous to even talk about both in the same breath.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 10:33

Isn't the whole issue of a challenges faced by and polices followed by national (ruling) party vs policies of a local leader of a very atypical, historically well to-do (by several yardsticks) state misleading in the first place?

Gujarat is well, Gujarat and Gujaratis are well, Gujaratis: about 5% of Indian population. It tops % economic growth & economic freedom lists, #3 in FDI(?) and stands #11 in HDI. To assume the policies and "frontal" tactics Modi used would be used and that it will be successful is IMO incorrect. And this Economic Growth->Trickle Down VS Redistribution/Spending-Deficits-Subsidies -> Better Living is an old debate and many more trees will fall for print-pulp.

This "Modi = Jagadish Bhagawati" claim is a stretch which rests on a wishful interpolation that he is going to do the same things he did in Gujarat when he is in the hot seat in Delhi. So is the "Moditva does not focus on caste distinctions, appeasement or casteism and is meritocratic" claim..... let's see what happens when he faces the realities of India. As Gadgil-ji said 20 years ago "In India you do not cast your vote, you vote your caste". It does holds true for large swathes of India.

Again, I am willing to wait for his pitch/manifesto if and when he becomes the contender AND see what he will do if and when he becomes the PM.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Jan 2013 11:37

WHY IS NARENDRA MODI OPPOSED?

[ Editor's Note : The author of this post is a research scholar from JNU. But he would like to remain anonymous due to considerations about the left leaning culture in his centre and especially the hatred for Modi prevalent there.]

Narendra Modi has been the victim of the longest running defamation campaign in India’s political history. It’s more than a decade since 2002 when media,left-liberal mafia,Islamists & communists and Congress propaganda machine started their hate campaign against Modi.If one looks at the propaganda we find that same lines are being repeated every time. Not only this but same propaganda has been going on for the last 60-70 years against nationalist forces! But opposition to Modi and the systematic mis-information campaign and slandering against him is the most shrill ever seen in India. It is therefore, necessary to analyse why Modi has attracted so much hostility that opposing forces have abandoned even the basic precautions of wearing the masks this time. The opposition to Modi stems mainly from following factors-

Hinduphobia- The Hinduphobia is so engrained in the minds of leftist brigade that it is perplexing some times. In their eyes Hindus are inherently fascist, communal and inferior people who have no right to self governance and empowerment. In fact they have no right to survival or to preserve their culture and spiritual traditions. That is why genocide of Hindus during Islamic invasions when some 80 to 100 million people were butchered is whitewashed and praises are written for the barbarians who did that, that is why religious prosecution of Hindus in Pakistan, Arab countries and even in India is ignored or labelled a communal topic, that is why ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir is blamed on Hindus themselves or ethnic cleansing of Bodos in Assam is dismissed with a straight face. Needless to say that this attitude is inherited form the colonial masters, after all what the communism is all about? Nothing but a strand of western imperialism and hegemony and on that a failed and disastrous one.So strong is the Hinduphobia that they have woven a whole fantasy world of ” historical and social” analysis to “prove” how evil Hinduism has been and the only way out is total annihilation of Hindus. So anybody who talks about one of the the largest ethnic cleansing in world in Pakistan and Bangladesh is shouted down as a fascist and communal because victims were Hindus and Sikhs. What is logic of Hindus in Muslim lands anyways, goes the Hinduphobic thought process! Hinduphobia has eaten up their brains to such an extent that they even side with the most regressive and barbaric forces of Islamofascism and shower praises on Taliban and feel “secular” in company of like of Jilani and Bukhari!

It is, therefore, intolerable for them to see a leader who is proud of being a Hindu and can rise to great heights without resorting to Hindu bashing. It is intolerable that he refuses to wear skull cap or splashes his pictures of throwing Iftar party unlike seculars like Mulayam who is only seen in the pics wearing skull cap and making dua at Iftar parties but never in a temple or performing puja! It is blasphemy that Modi refuses to believe that all burden of Hindu-Muslim unity is only on Hindus. After all when do we see any Muslim politician ever accepting Tilak on his forehead or throwing party on any Hindu festival? Of course it never occurs to Modi bashers that a Hindu too can have religious rights and sensitivities like others and horror of the horror a Hindu can have right to reject.Modi has demolished the anti-Hindu propaganda and stereotypes by showing the world the meaning of Hindutva through his developmental works and achievements.He has revived the Hindu administrative ethos of the old-honesty, loyalty, hard-work, impartiality and entrepreneurship. It is the spectre of the return of the Gupta-Chola administrative culture, splendours of Vijyanagar and dedication of Maurayans which is haunting leftist-congressi mafia. And they are leaving no stone unturned to malign Gujarat and Modi.

Casteism- It gives nightmares to casteist-communal-communists, Congressi elites and upper caste Muslims that Modi does not belong to the so called upper castes but to a caste which lies low in the casteist hierarchy. But he has broken the glass ceilings and threatens the little cosy world of the traditional elites by his mantra of mass prosperity and equality. And that he has done so without evoking caste politics is something which has shaken the whole political dispensation and the leftist “academia” (in fact less of academia and more of propaganda machine).

In the casteist-communal-communist pseudo history Hinduism is the religion of some invading “Brahmin-Baniya” aryan invaders who imposed it on the indigenous people. Therefore, all others should not follow Hinduism (and convert to other foreign religions!)

They mean that Dalits, tribals and the masses of India had no history, culture, religion and civilisation but all they think is theirs is actually imposed on them by invaders. In true casteist mentality they believe that people never had any brains of their own and were not capable of creating their own culture,spirituality apart from what some Aryans imposed on them. And even today they are incapable of deciding good from bad and must,therefore, follow what the comrades tell them or evangelists feed them. By propagating this myth they have sought to systematically de humanise the Dalits, tribals and others to create a rootless and alienated people which can be used as the cannon fodder in their “revolution”. In this they are enthusiastically joined by evangelists and Islamists who are sensing spoils for their schemes.

It is this game which has been upset by Modi’s Hindutva -A proud assertion of people’s Dharma and willingness to stand up for the spiritual freedom and rights of Dalits and tribals and other oppressed sections of society and not to let them become a hunting ground for predatory religious organisations or to be tortured for being Hindu by castist-communists.

This is beyond belief for mostly upper caste, mostly rich, mostly urban leftist mafia, congressi Rajas, mediapersons and “intellectuals”. The upper caste Muslims, the promoter of Islamism and admires of foreign Turks and Mongol overlords of India, are insecure about their power and wealth to which they have grown accustomed to while muslims masses lived in deprivity. When was the power in the hands of the Indian muslims in the much glorified “Muslim rule”? Irani, Turani, Mughalani aristocrats schemed for power while Hindustani Muslims with their Hindu brethren worked in fields and paid taxes to fill the coffers of these invaders! Modi by refusing to buy in the distorted version of the history and calling Delhi sultanate what it really was-a barbaric military occupation of India by fanatic and often psychic overlords-threatens the hold of dogma of religion and pseudo history of past glories over the Muslim masses. By championing the mass prosperity without paying homage to religious identity he has become a headache for Mullahs and Maulavis who are rightly sensing the ground slipping under their feet.

That a so called low caste person can be the fountainhead of so much dynamism, efficiency and intellect is intolerable for casteist leftist and media establishment and thus these two are hostile to him to the extent of insanity.

Communalism- Modi by his straight forward refusal to do politics of communal appeasement and symbolism has become target of all the communal elements in the country. He has focused on development and prosperity rather than caste and communal mobilisation. And by this he has enhanced its appeal across the religious, regional and caste divides. This upsets the game plan of those who seek to keep India permanently fractured along communal lines and gives sleepless nights to the old political guard who simply cannot imagine a post communal politics.

Development- Modi’s politics of development and not of emotions and identity challenges the status quo of the political culture in India. He offers no Muslim reservation, no free laptops, no subsidies and no other freebies but his work record and developmental agenda. Gujarat has grown under him as the dynamic hub of opportunities, business and entrepreneurship. It is attracting not only investments form India and abroad but also the talents. He has promoted a liberal and market friendly economic policies and thus increased prosperity, jobs and social mobility. The caste system is based on the two foundations-endogamy and denial of economic freedom. People are trapped in their respective professions which they have inherited by the accident of the birth. The central point in the caste system has been the denial of the economic freedom often enforced by the perpetuation of the violence. And it is on the economic freedom that all our other freedoms rest. The caste system can be broken only by providing antidote-economic liberty-to the fundamental reason that sustains it. Modi by following this policy has rattled the socialist brigade who see the lifetime of their work collapsing like a heap of card. Caste system cannot be overcome by socialism as many people falsely believe. In fact, caste system is very much like socialism as it imposes the dictate of the society on the individuals, reduces the scope of individual entrepreneurship & choice and places the society above individual. People are told what they should think rather than what they actually think. Socialism can only strengthen caste system and identities as can be seen in communist dominated states of W.B, Kerala or heartland of socialist politics i.e. U.P, Bihar etc.

The double digit industrial and agricultural growth in this global recession is envy of the whole India. Modi has proved that the decisive and visionary leadership can deliver results and that he is the most efficient and visionary political leader in the country. This gives cold feet to the Samajwad typos who never want people to come out of casteism and poverty otherwise who will be fooled by their Samajwadi utopia? The Likes of Mamta, Mulayam, Commies and Congressi are sensing the coming rebellion in the states they continue to oppress as the Gujarat model convinces more and more people that things can change for better and Hindutva is that change.

National security-Modi’s no nonsense approach to the internal and external security stands in sharp contrast to the manipulative and cowardly approach by the opposition. In the ten years of the Modi’s rule Gujarat has seen no communal riots (with the exception of the 2002 riots after a Muslim mob burned train coach at Godhara and when Modi had just assumed power). Where as U.P is burning under communal riots under “secular” Samajwadi Sarkar, In Assam illegal Bangladeshis are doing ethnic cleansing of the helpless tribals, In Hyderabad fascists and communal elements like MIM’s Owasi are having the free run! But of course no body is calling Mulayam-Akhilesh or Tarun Gogai fascist or communal. It is clear Modi is being targeted for very different reasons which have nothing to do with 2002 riots or concerns for minorities. Modi’s refusal to even entertain question of religious or ethnic identity of the terrorist worries those who ask for mercy for Afzal Guru and Kasab or LTTE terrorists. The prospect of Modi in charge has rattled the powers that be who could count about weak and reptilian politicians to save their pets in the name of minority or majority grievances and manufactured dissents. It is clear that Modi will not tolerate these sinister forces like those behind Kundankulan protests, Maoist vandalism or aggressive evangelism wearing the mask of human rights and anti- caste discourses which seek to install a sense of alienation among different sections of the society. These forces have not found any foothold in Modi ruled Gujarat and they fear that their free run in rest of India will come to an end if ever Modi assumes the national role. Hence, the massive and unprecedented international campaign by ” rights” groups and lobbying with foreign governments by shadowy groups against Modi.

But despite these shameless efforts by sinister elements to malign Modi his popularity has risen across the country and sections of the society. His recent interview to Shahid Siddique ( which drove seculars to silly theatric, even expelling Siddique from S.P) and Google hangout broke the siege the Media had built around people and Modi. Modi’s work and track record speaks for it self and that is why people have given repeated mandate for him and his government. That is why he is the most preferred candidate for the top post in the country. Nothing can stop the awakening of the people who are desperate to get rid of corrupt-castist-communal-communist political culture to which India has descended
http://centreright.in/2013/01/why-naren ... O5eEOTfg44

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 11:44

Moditva as an ideology is defined as == "Development oriented. Does not focus on caste distinctions or appeasement of social groups. Believes in meritocracy, and is against Dynastyism. It is aspirational and sets a high-bar for achievement in different spheres. Believes that India needs to live up to the greatness of her past. Would not encourage spread of intolerant ideologies."

Why is this called Moditva ?...Well, because Modi happens to be the leader who has best articulated this vision on several occasions - while having actually implemented them at either a state or national level.

Anand, forget about whether Modi himself will live upto Moditva, as he moves from state to national level. Just answer the question as to whether you personally would want this ideology defined above to spread in India or not.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 12:33

Arjun wrote:Moditva as an ideology is defined as ......
Anand, forget about whether Modi himself will live upto Moditva, as he moves from state to national level. Just answer the question as to whether you personally would want this ideology defined above to spread in India or not.

Heh... this is like one of the questions which goes like this - "This project is good for the children! You.... don't hate... the children...... do you?!".

Forget the hoary "Have-You-Stopped-Beating-Your-Wife?" trap... the whole framing is Norman Rockwell Motherhood-and-Apple Pie nebulous and expansive to boot, when you consider that the country in question is India. And articles "from JNU" which gushes "As it is in Gujarat, it will be for the rest of India" and majestically sweeps away Indian caste system with economic liberty (

Gosh, it was so simple!!!) and the like is rather unconvincing.

BTW, Modi is hardly the first person who has promised and articulated land-of-milk-and-honey. One should read the end results promised in the CPM manifesto for tingling goosebumps and erect-nipple effects. Or the India promised in the BSP manifesto and Mayawati's speeches. What matters is action on the ground... and here, the ground is the whole of *India*.
The INC is a known quantity and a pan-Indian entity (with national problems and challenges and diverse interests) at that; we know how it rolls. Modi rests solely on his administration of Gujarat.... and as I said before, I do not want to interpolate Gujarat to the rest of India. The whole idea is specious.

But as Kamaraj said, "Parkalaam". Let's see what he brings to the table if and when he contends..... Let us see how rest of India takes to him, his record, his message and his solutions. Let us see what he does if and when he becomes PM.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 10 Jan 2013 12:47

Arjun, that was a excellent list of differences between the ideologies of INC vs BJP (Modi) -- if I may offer another one:

INC and its supporters have a morbid fear of taking a distinct stand on any issue. They are comfortable in vague generalities and would rarely commit on specifics on how to deal with issues. OTOH, Moditva is specific, issue based and is not afraid to take a stand.

This lack of standing for anything is comfortable in terms of being something for everyone, since any one can assume something about their position, so foggily it is stated. This is INCs variety of inclusion.

In fact, many times even BJP supporters have wanted this from BJP "mooh kholne ki kya zaroort thi" (what was the need to make a statement) -- so powerful a weapon this complete lack of stand is.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 12:48

Okaaay...Anand

All right then, lets try another tack. You don't want to reveal your personal opinion of Moditva, 'cos you think it's a trap...

Lets talk about the Dynasty. Tell us why you support the Dynasty (and this is the third time this is being asked of you).

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 13:02

Hmmmm... regarding the nature of the Congress in Indian polity:-

The very nature of the INC as an umbrella group in the Indian National Movement necessitated a focus or an axle around which many interests converge safely for survival, succor and growth. Like a Draupadi+ to the 5 brothers. An umbrella group motley crew with thodi si mangalsutra, thodi si kamasutra..... thodi si beimaani, thodi si hoshiari....
It realized by 1907 that such innate nature.... it is a *congress* of many interests from Kashmir to KK.... always leads to splits. Until Gandhiji ascended in 1915 the INC pretty much pulled in different directions. Since then, the party always revolved around a person. Once India neared independence and became free, those forces with higher centrifugal pulls simply split away.... the communists first, the socialists, the Swatantra party, the extreme regionalists. The thing that held the rump together was this focus/axle and the rump (whittling down down the years) knows it well. Due to accidents of history, basically economics related splits in the INC or by design, the focus/axle turned out to be the Nehru bloodline by the late 70s-early 80s.

For a grouping such as the INC, it is useful or instinctive to raise up a Patriach/Matriach who is both the fountain and the lightning rod. If the entire Nehru-Gandhi clan somehow disappeared overnight, they constituents will raise someone to this pedestal or simply dissipate away. Even PVNR was always seen as existing at the pleasure of SG.... and the Tiwari Congress claimed they draw inspiration and standing from the Family.

The Congress has no fixed ideology, displays cynicism and practices procrastination, pampering, adjustments and sometimes sheer char-sau-bees. I believe this is a one of the two methods to deal with the volatile Indian cocktail; add slowly, stir very slowly..... dilute if needed or throw it into the sink if it catches fire. The other option would be to overwhelm the cocktail by hopefully an overpowering concoction. And hope it stays safe.
The Congress does not have a fixed ideology.... OTOH the RSS (the axle of the Parivar) or the CPM has an ideology, has firm beliefs and sure-fix, expansive, far reaching solutions at it's core. The does not represent particular caste interests.... not in the way BSP does. The INC does not say it represents a religion primarily, like the BJP.
To some, it appears that this very nature is the root of all evil in India. To others, it appears this is precisely the factor that saved India and will ensure that India continues to exist.

Just a ramble.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 13:12

Arjun wrote:Lets talk about the Dynasty. Tell us why you support the Dynasty (and this is the third time this is being asked of you).

The THIRDDDDD time! What am I? Mustafa from Austin powers?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 13:24

Anand K wrote:Hmmmm... regarding the nature of the Congress in Indian polity:-.....<snip>

You've confirmed in your post that

- the focus / axle of the Congress IS the Nehru bloodline
- its approach is based on cynicism
- "practices procrastination, pampering, adjustments and sometimes sheer char-sau-bees"
- has no fixed ideology ( I initially wanted to dispute this but I think I now understand what you are saying...Congress is against any 'idealistic' philosophy that comes up against it. So it defines its own ideology (like the Pakis) as anti-positive ideologies of others.)

In other words, you completely validate Sanku's thesis that the Congress does not believe in taking a stance and its stance is defined as opposition to whatever idealistic stance other parties might have.

And Anand - you understand all of this and YET actually support the Dynasty. All I can say is, with all due respect to you - I truly wish for you and your kind to get EXTINCT at the earliest - both for India's sake and for that of the world at large.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 13:41

He swingssss hard.................and he MISSES! The bat just grazes the ball and it eases away to the rear....

To some, it appears that this very nature is the root of all evil in India. To others, it appears this is precisely the factor that saved India and will ensure that India continues to exist.

.... and the twain shall never meet and that's that. Action springing from ideology != Correct Action. Sometimes inaction is the best action and all that. Jai Ho!

Anyway, whatever floats your boat, mate. I am a Sith and the Sith must die!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 13:57

Anand K wrote: I am a Sith and the Sith must die!

Lets not do anything quite so drastic, Anand....Life is still worth living if you can get past the cynicism. All the Sith need to do is to go back to where they belong.

There are other parts of the forest, mate - for swingers like you. You can even find company to discuss how Narendra Modi engineered 26/11 to polarize the country. There are some 'academic' types who will orgasm over it, as I am sure you know well.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 14:11

Sure. And the righteous shall inherit Bharatvarsha.... which they will not because of tampered EVMs and Olaf Caroe's plans and Vatican agents MUHUHUHUHAHAHAHAHA.

Boss, FWIW this kinda discussion in BRF is kinda old hat for me.... where *my* affiliations stand and what exactly the INC is etc. Like six-seven years ago.... when we discussed Dharmic Rashtra Charter overriding Constitution and even before in the 50s-60s Economic Policies/Banking thread IIRC.

How about getting back to infinitely more important things like what Modi might do to patch up with the RSS brass in Gujarat? How the national RSS leadership will accommodate something like Modi in their narrative and plans? How exactly did economic liberty reach Gujarati tribals and eradicated poverty (which earned a HDI rank of #11

) and how casteism is stamped out and cronyism/nepotism uprooted, how inclusive is the Gujarat growth etc.... all which can be a model for rest of India? That is, exactly what the thread's title says it would do?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 14:23

There's a separate thread for political discusions and your opinion on what kind of politics will win in the hustings.

This thread is for evaluating the Dynasty's ideology (or lack of it) in comparison to Modi's ideology and determining which is more suitable for the country's progress.

If you are able to bring in anything constructive to this thread in terms of which ideology is appropriate and adds value to India - then please do so. Cynicism without any alternate ideology being championed - is not welcome on this thread.

If you continue to display this attitude - you will be reported for trolling.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 10 Jan 2013 14:42

Well, another dhaga derailed or what... Anyway, reject the onus of defending NM and breathe free, I say. He is what he is and is responsible for his own merits and mistakes. Like him or hate him, his record is spectacular. Only.

As regards deliberately worded trollbait, just yawn and move on only. Only. Naysaying is always the easier path. Only.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 14:52

Hari Seldon wrote: Anyway, reject the onus of defending NM and breathe free, I say. He is what he is and is responsible for his own merits and mistakes.

There's no onus on anyone to defend NM or the Dynasty here...

The only onus I would like is that those here be able to defend their own values (whatever they be) and take a stance on the leader who best represents those values. If there's any one thing that India lacks - its a citizenry that is able to define what the hell its own values are all about. And if NM is instrumental in forcing that process - so be it.

On the other hand - if there are some who claim not to have any value system of their own and yet want to participate on this thread....Ummm, don't think so. Beyond a point, its trolling and will be reported as such.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 10 Jan 2013 14:55

Arjun wrote:This thread is for evaluating the Dynasty's ideology (or lack of it) in comparison to Modi's ideology and determining which is more suitable for the country's progress.

If you are able to bring in anything constructive to this thread in terms of which ideology is appropriate and adds value to India - then please do so. Cynicism without any alternate ideology being championed - is not welcome on this thread.

If you continue to display this attitude - you will be reported for trolling.

Hah.... a majority of the posts here since day one were about Modi's chances in 2014 and intra-party politics. And *I* will be reported to headmaster?

Anyway, this is what you defined Moditva as:- Moditva as an ideology is defined as == "Development oriented. Does not focus on caste distinctions or appeasement of social groups. Believes in meritocracy, and is against Dynastyism. It is aspirational and sets a high-bar for achievement in different spheres. Believes that India needs to live up to the greatness of her past. Would not encourage spread of intolerant ideologies."

Pick out manifestos of other parties, I bet what they *say* is pretty much the same as above. Perhaps the CPM one will be ditto, except for Indian Past thingie. But it's what they actually *do* that matters.

And you can't tell how Moditva is actually good for India till you say what path shall be followed and what challenges will be faced.... can you? So will the path followed change Moditva till it becomes unrecognizable from eeeekkkk the INC?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Jan 2013 15:04

Anand K wrote:Hah.... a majority of the posts here since day one were about Modi's chances in 2014 and intra-party politics. And *I* will be reported to headmaster?

Point here is not primarily about politics. Its primarily about taking a stand. You've got to take a stand based on your own values.

You can't weasel out saying you are a cynic, that the Congress is a bunch of thugs - but that's what India requires. No thank you - I'd rather anyone saying that be turfed out of this thread and this forum, and I seriously mean it.