PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

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heech
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

mahadevbhu wrote:^^^^ sounds like american prices right there. But not american salaries.
Just a few years ago, I would jokingly tell people how nice it was to earn an American salary, but spend it in China. I used to really enjoy annual shopping trips, where I'd stock up on needed clothing / shoes in China at a huge discount. (I like to dress reasonably well, but I've never been a slave to brands.) You could live an American lifestyle in China, but at a huge discount.

But that really isn't the case any more. The cost of living between urban China and the US is closing very rapidly. A typical home in a first-tier city in China sells for probably around $500,000 USD... which is precisely why many Chinese are shocked how cheap American real estate can be. And I often find it cheaper buying no-brand clothes in the US, than in any decent Chinese department store. Now, if you want to live an American lifestyle in China, you will have to pay American costs. This is all due to increasing demand, as hundreds of millions of Chinese are now making enough to aim for a similar lifestyle.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

Excellent posts, heech. Thanks!
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

Some of the items are steep compared to where I live, Kolkata , a Tier I city in eastern India. For example a good private school will be much cheaper at USD 1000 per year. Domestic helps can be availed at USD 100 per month. Movie tickets would be at USD 5.00 in a good multiplex. TAxi ride would be USD 3.00. Cable charges are about US 12.00 per month - there are much cheaper options now. My cell phone bill comes to USD 20.00 ( 2g only and i donot talk a lot )

Electricity and gas prices and public transport are similar priced. Lunch prices are similar. 10% per and there.

A adequate car for a family of 4 with 1.3L engine would cost USD 10,000. A bigger one with about 1.5 - 1.6L engine would cost USD 20,000+. What about your city?

A USD 2000 per month take home salary will be good one in my city. What about yours?
Last edited by subhamoy.das on 17 Jan 2013 16:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Singha »

> which is precisely why many Chinese are shocked how cheap American real estate can be

same here in India as well :|

> A USD 2000 per month take home salary will be good one in my city. What about yours?

that will be hand to mouth existence in any metro in India if you are married with 2 school going kids. the game has changed brother. let us say 2000USD = 110,000INR roughly

home EMI = 40,000
2 kids school and bus fees = 15000
grocery expenses = 12000
eating out couple of times/month in a decent place if non veg= 4000
contribution to 80CC (1L tax savings scheme) = 8000
medical expenses = 5000
misc expenses like clothes, school supplies, durables around 10000
car EMI = 8000
total = 102,000 , savings barely 8000 ie less than 10% of your take home when the idea would be >25%
throw in more expenses if you travel on vacation or have aeging parents to support financially or with you.

you can manage this curve only if the wife works, or have a paid off house/parental house, or live as a rich guy in a smaller city like kochi, mangalore or vizag(but hard to find work in many fields there) and thats precisely how people are trying to manage.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

Singha wrote:> which is precisely why many Chinese are shocked how cheap American real estate can be

same here in India as well :|

> A USD 2000 per month take home salary will be good one in my city. What about yours?

that will be hand to mouth existence in any metro in India if you are married with 2 school going kids. the game has changed brother. let us say 2000USD = 110,000INR roughly

home EMI = 40,000
2 kids school and bus fees = 15000
grocery expenses = 12000
eating out couple of times/month in a decent place if non veg= 4000
contribution to 80CC (1L tax savings scheme) = 8000
medical expenses = 5000
misc expenses like clothes, school supplies, durables around 10000
car EMI = 8000
total = 102,000 , savings barely 8000 ie less than 10% of your take home when the idea would be >25%
throw in more expenses if you travel on vacation or have aeging parents to support financially or with you.

you can manage this curve only if the wife works, or have a paid off house/parental house, or live as a rich guy in a smaller city like kochi, mangalore or vizag(but hard to find work in many fields there) and thats precisely how people are trying to manage.
You are right. My figure assumde a paid out home. So I would say a USD 3000 would be a comfortable figure to take home to experience the American Dream in India. So CHINESE workers should take home around rmb 18,000 per month to experience the same effect. So now if we can get how easy or hard to get these kind of jobs in China.
Last edited by subhamoy.das on 17 Jan 2013 16:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20292 »

^^^

pressure on me to get my btt in shape and get the moolah home. My salary is barely anything right now!
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

subhamoy.das wrote: A adequate car for a family of 4 with 1.3L engine would cost USD 10,000. A bigger one with about 1.5 - 1.6L engine would cost USD 20,000+. What about your city?
Seems like China might be cheaper, perhaps it's the difference between domestic vs imports? Smaller cars with sub-1.3L engines aren't that popular.... But can go for less than $8k USD. Decent sized sedans in the 1.3-1.5 L range are usually around $15000 USD (80-100k RMB).

The big bottleneck in car ownership right now comes from earning your drivers license. Getting a slot in a (regulated) driving school in Shenzhen means you have to sit on a waiting list for 12-18 months. Taking actual tests can also take a very long time. The demand for cars is just insatiable... which is why the pollution story in Beijing should be of concern. I see the number of vehicles in China going much, much higher over the next 10 years.

I believe car ownership was encouraged as a way to both boost industry, and consumption. But the side-effects (traffic/pollution) are horrible.
A USD 2000 per month take home salary will be good one in my city. What about yours?
As far as what a good salary is... You can see this site (in Chinese but the chart isn't hard to understand; 6 RMB = 1 USD)
http://www.job592.com/pay/shenzhen/

So, I would say a $2000 USD job is obviously very good as well. And you can see why home prices are just too high for the average Chinese.

One thing of note: most urban families in China are dual-income. I don't know the statistics off hand, but I literally do not know anyone where both husband/wife are not working. I don't know any "housewives" who stay at home to take care of the kids... That's left entirely to grandparents.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/busin ... es.html?hp

By the end of the decade, China expects to have nearly 195 million community college and university graduates — compared with no more than 120 million in the United States then.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

From the web site most of the jobs pay around USD 1000 ( 6000 rmb ). So a household income before tax will be around 2,000 usd( both couple working ). Assuming a 20% tax , they will get USD 1500 in hand. So if this pay is bare bones for a Indian couple wishing to have a American Dream in India, how can the Chinese couple affort the same where we are seeing that cost of house hold items are similar. So is the tax rates are lower? Kids eduction is free so that could be a advantage also. So how come car sales are so high in China when the purchasing power is almost similar. Some thing is missing. Is the saving rate much less in China ?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

subhamoy.das wrote:From the web site most of the jobs pay around USD 1000 ( 6000 rmb ). So a household income before tax will be around 2,000 usd( both couple working ). Assuming a 20% tax , they will get USD 1500 in hand. So if this pay is bare bones for a Indian couple wishing to have a American Dream in India, how can the Chinese couple affort the same where we are seeing that cost of house hold items are similar. So is the tax rates are lower? Kids eduction is free so that could be a advantage also. So how come car sales are so high in China when the purchasing power is almost similar. Some thing is missing. Is the saving rate much less in China ?
Good question, let's work through it.

Tax rates for people making 6000 RMB is very low. Just ran it through an online calculator... 6000 RMB, your take-home is 5855 RMM, or roughly 2.4%. (This is because income < 3500 RMB a month is tax-free, and tax rates at 6000 RMB is still very low.) And furthermore, very common to pay a 13th month of salary as a bonus. But probably most significantly, I think that site's a little misleading. The numbers are probably roughly right for a starting salary, but it doesn't show the right distribution for people who are mid-career.

I just googled, and there are 1.42 milllion private cars in Shenzhen. With 15 million people in Shenzhen... assuming 3 person per household, that's 5 million households. I think purchasing a $10,000 USD car is definitely within reach for 30% of Shenhzen households, if the *average* household take-home is $24000 USD a year.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

Beijing warns residents after off-the-charts smog
BEIJING (AP) — Beijing schools kept children indoors and hospitals saw a spike in respiratory cases Monday following a weekend of off-the charts pollution in China's smoggy capital, the worst since the government began being more open about air-quality data.
...
Schools in several districts were ordered to cancel outdoor activities such as flag-raisings and sports classes, and in an unusual public announcement, Beijing authorities advised all residents to "take measures to protect their health."
...
Levels of PM2.5 particle pollution over the weekend reached the highest levels since the Beijing government began publicly releasing figures following a public outcry. In separate monitoring by the U.S. Embassy, level were at 886 micrograms per cubic meter in a reading that was labeled "beyond index."
By Monday, levels had declined to about 350 micrograms on the Beijing government scale — down from a high above 700 but still way above the level of 25 considered safe by the World Health Organization.
PM2.5 are tiny particulate matter less than 2.5 micrometers in size, or about 1/30th the average width of a human hair. They can penetrate deep into the lungs, and measuring them is considered a more accurate reflection of air quality than other methods.
The Beijing Shijitan Hospital received 20 percent more patients than usual at its respiratory health department, Dr. Huang Aiben said. Most patients were coughing and sought treatment for chronic bronchitis, asthma and other respiratory illnesses, Huang said.
...
Huang said exposure to such high levels of pollution over the short term can cause bacterial and viral infections, and prolonged exposure could result in tumors.
...
The government started publishing PM2.5 readings last year after public demands for more detailed air quality data, prompted in part by a Twitter feed from the U.S. Embassy that reported readings from the building's roof. A growing Chinese middle class has become increasingly vocal about the quality of the environment. Hourly air quality updates are now available online for more than 70 cities.
...
Read it all. And the pic at Yahoo! is quite "breath"-taking.

A related post is here. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1395138
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Rishirishi »

You cannot have the lifestyle of US even 5000 dollars per month in India. How do you account for

Air quality
Food safety
Transport/roads
Power and water supply
Police response
Law and order situation

That is why most opt to live in west, even if they are offered good salaries in India.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

Err... how does India figure in this? The pics are for China, if you have missed. You are also posting in the China thread.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20317 »

heech wrote:
Suraj wrote:heech: Can you expand on the real estate front ? What are prices like in major cities ? How much down ? What are interest rates like ? How much above purchase price does it cost to install fitments, since I read apartments are typically sold bare, without even electrical/plumbing outlets set up ? What about the dynamics of obtaining the typically substantial downpayment ? Does the family chip in or borrow from extended family or unofficial money lenders ?
I'm a little biased in my answers, because I personally don't like real estate speculation at all... I still think there is a bubble in China. I bought an apartment unit to live in, when I'm in China... in the 6-7 years since I've bought it, it's gone up by probably roughly 300%. I find that pretty ridiculous, and I would think unsustainable... but I've been wrong for 3+ years about that. So, I don't really pay attention to prices / trends. I'm just not that interested.

(There was a message higher up in this thread, which talked about real estate being the only alternative for savings/investments, because bank deposit rates are so low as to actively penalize savers... and that's pretty accurate, I think a good explanation for why there is so much demand for real estate despite very high prices.)

But I can talk about general impressions. I've read that government attempts to hold down prices did have some effect... for about a year or two, it pushed transaction volume nearly to zero (sellers didn't want to sell, and buyers didn't want to buy), but prices didn't really drop significantly. No more than 5-10% in most cities. The last few months though, it really seems like the heat is coming back into the market. I'm seeing more developments being advertised, and I'm hearing prices are starting to go back up again. Just too much demand.

To answer your specific questions:

- "building out" a bare unit isn't very expensive... maybe 4-8% of the purchase cost of the overall unit. (75,000 RMB for a 1.5 million RMB house, for example.)

- a (floating) base interest rate is set by the central bank, and local banks can then offer rates that are offset around that central rate.

- as far as actual rates.. you can look at this chart (shows < 6 months, 6-12 months, 1-3 years, 3-5 years, 5-10 years):

http://www.bankrate.com.cn/chart/homeLoanFlash

- for your first home, you can normally borrow up to 70% of the purchase price. For the second home, it's down to 40% of the purchase price. There are also limitations on age.

- for down payment, usually paid through savings + extended family. You hear stories of speculators borrowing from money-lenders in order to buy hundreds of units at a time... but for 99% of average Chinese consumers, usually very risk averse about taking on debt at all. One very common scenario is to have the older generation / grandparents paying the down payment with their savings, and the younger generation paying the mortgage... and everyone living in the same home.

Heech ji, your response deserves to be on the Collection of good posts. Somehow until now the only Chinese the forum attracted were the photograph bombers.

The scenario you described for China is almost like the one for India with some minor changes.

My query is regarding the level of black money employed in RE industry? On an average (estimate) what percentage of consideration would be paid out in cash?

Also I want to understand how the RE bubble that you suspect is still there, has affected the secondary market for the land parcels getting traded amongst RE developers and land bank owners.



Also following are a few interactions I have had with others or that I just picked up and if possible request you to provide inputs that can help us reach a more accurate picture:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1213133
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1213283
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1213955

Basically I and a few other members are not convinced about the price graph. Graph is either a lie or if true then there is a bigger lie elsewhere. Unless there is something we have not focused on as yet.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

heech: Shenzhen is easily the most prosperous city in PRC, with the greatest per capita income. How do price levels of all the things you mentioned look like in other cities ? This includes not just the other tier 1 cities like Beijing, Shanghai, GZ, Chongqing and Tianjin, but say, places like Wuhan, Xiamen, Dalian etc.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

The Chinese economy had a good year. Despite the fact that many have questioned the figures put out by the Chinese as far as exports are concerned. And right now with the mess that is Europe or more precisely the Euro-zone is in, the world economy needs every help that it can get. My main concern is that do Chinese realize what the impact of this slow down is going to be? America will take years if not decades to return to the level of consumption that we had seen in the first decade of this century. Euro-zone and consequently Europe is going to be sick for the half part of 2013,i.e. Q1 and Q2. The fear of Euro-zone breakup or of two speed euro has gone and it is being said that this is not going to happen.

The problem with all of this was that Europe was the biggest market for China. With Europe where it is, China can depend only on America as the predominant market. That cannot be good for numerous geo-political and geo-economic reasons. China has managed to unnerve Japan, the 3rd largest economy and one of the biggest source of capital, technology and knowledge for China. Also indications are that Chinese are still going the way they went previously, i.e. by investing in Infrastructure and other capital intensive expenditure to pull itself out of its malaise. Again they forget where Japan went with so much infrastructure investment post 1990s.

Do the Chinese realize that they have to carry out the next generation of reforms? And unfortunately these reforms are not all going to be restricted to the economic/financial sphere?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

ravi_g wrote:
My query is regarding the level of black money employed in RE industry? On an average (estimate) what percentage of consideration would be paid out in cash?
Sorry, I don't understand what you are referring to. Are you talking about developers bribing officials, or something else...?
Also following are a few interactions I have had with others or that I just picked up and if possible request you to provide inputs that can help us reach a more accurate picture:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1213133
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1213283
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1213955

Basically I and a few other members are not convinced about the price graph. Graph is either a lie or if true then there is a bigger lie elsewhere. Unless there is something we have not focused on as yet.
I don't understand that graph, and can't find an obvious reference to the source. I can't speak to it. But I'm reasonably sure the graph isn't obviously correct... that is, land assets were trading for half their previous price at one point. It must be something measuring marginal deals, or something.... ie, the parcels actually changing hands were half the price of deals being done earlier, but that could be indicative of different deal mix....

In any case, it's interesting that many of the dire predictions about the Chinese real estate market have so far proven exaggerated. There's just too much demand (apparently).
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

Christopher Sidor wrote:Do the Chinese realize that they have to carry out the next generation of reforms? And unfortunately these reforms are not all going to be restricted to the economic/financial sphere?
Yes, and no? Who are "the Chinese" that you refer to? Certainly many Chinese are aware of it. Every speech given by the top leadership for the last half year has repeatedly focused on the need for deep/difficult reforms. Many have pointed to Xi Jinping (the new party head) visiting Shenzhen as being a signal that he's going to try to push through changes as profound as those approved by Deng Xiaoping in the early 90s.

But talk is cheap. Any reforms will mean taking away power/wealth from established interest groups. Can that be done successfully? Will reforms be blocked by those individuals benefitting from the status quo? Who knows? Stay tuned.

For example, the out-going premier Wen Jiabao promised that one of his legacy projects would be a major framework for flattening the income gap between rich/poor. He promised that would be published before the end of 2012. And now, with only 2 months left before formal retirement...? Still nothing. The Chinese government obviously does many things very well, but that doesn't mean it does EVERYTHING well.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

China's labor force drops for first time in 2012
China Daily-Jan 17, 2013

China's working age population in 2012, the labor force aged from 15 to 59, reduced by 3.45 million from a year earlier to 937.27 million.


China's Labor Cost Rise Will Boost Rivals in Asia
CNBC.com-Jan 17, 2013
China's rising labor costs will help other South Asian countries gain a foothold in low-end manufacturing, a report from Capital Economics said ...
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-1 ... -2020.html
Ma’s comments bolster the contention that China’s economy is permanently downshifting a gear as its one-child policy drives down the labor force. Slower growth presents challenges for incoming leaders Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang, and may limit the country’s potential as a market for everything from Australian iron ore to German machinery.
“A declining labor force is just one of several economic headwinds looming on the horizon,” said David Loevinger, former senior coordinator for China affairs at the U.S. Treasury Department, now an Asia analyst in Los Angeles at TCW Group Inc. “As Xi and Li assemble their economic teams, we’ll find out whether necessity will again be the mother of reforms, as it has been in the past.”
Fourth-quarter growth, while exceeding the median analyst estimate, brought 2012 expansion to 7.8 percent, the weakest pace since 1999. China stepped up infrastructure spending to reverse a seven-quarter slowdown, with fixed-asset investment excluding rural areas rising an inflation-adjusted 19.3 percent, compared with 16.1 percent in 2011, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co.
Demographic Shift
“In the past people always believed 8 percent or even 10 percent is necessary for China to maintain high employment and prevent mass unemployment, but demographic change is making the requirement for growth much lower,” said Lu Ting, head of Greater China economics at Bank of America Corp. in Hong Kong. “Potential economic growth in China will slow to around 6 percent by 2020.”
China recorded average annual expansion of more than 10 percent over the last 20 years, peaking at 14.2 percent in 2007, according to previously released government data. Analysts forecast 8.1 percent this year and 8 percent in 2014, based on median estimates in a Bloomberg News survey last month.
Ma said at a press briefing that a 7 percent to 8 percent pace “will facilitate change in the growth model and structural adjustment.” Rural-to-urban migration, urbanization and industrialization will keep driving expansion, said Ma, 54, who in November was named first in line to join the Communist Party’s 205-member central committee of leaders if a vacancy arises.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

heech: The ultimate item which even international banks also consider the bench mark. How much does a BigMac meal costs? It costs about USD 3.0 here.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

guys: take a look at these tables :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... per_capita
http://www.mapi.net/china-largest-manufacturer-world


The conclusion that we are drawing of the CHINESE household consumption is matching very strongly here. In terms of house hold consumption they are at I$ 2200.00 - at the bottom of the pile - while India is at I$ 1750.00. Yet they have world's largest markets for house hold goods which is purely base effect of a huge population just like India.

Now compare this with the manufacturing density of the top 15 manufacturing countries in the world. U will find that CHINA, BRAZIL, RUSSIA have the same level of manufacturing density BUT the consumption - read jobs - are at 10,000 to 7,000 levels where in CHINA it is at 2000 level. So clearly the CHINESE strategy of getting out of the low consumption ( read poverty ) by manufacturing DID NOT work as it worked on smaller countries.

The above fact also matches why CHINA has a very very little % of its fortune 500 companies doing consumer manufacturing and only 30% of GDP is consumption driven ( It is 60% for India ).

I am not downplaying CHINA here but just pointing out that manufacturing has not helped the average joe but has made the STATE rich which is now engaged in building the worlds largest and fastest items - rail, bridges, space, super comps, military - items which are of no use to the averge joe - on a daily life. I think it was this strategy of making the CCP rich and keep the joes poor which drove them to mass scale manufacturing. Th joe is finding it out and hence the media sensorship and the constant attempt to show piece the biggest and largest to keep the joes at bay and coupled with free education, free health to the joes in the country side.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

I analyzed further.

CHINESE per capita house hold consumption levels are comparable to - in 30% or less - Angola, Luxembourgh, Saudi, Kuwait, Brunei, Macao, Gabon, Guinea, Congo, Azerbaijan, BHUTAN. So CHINA is in ranks of august company indeed.

There is no democracy in any of these countries except probably LUXEMBORGH.
These countries are at the mercy of the west and can be easily choked by an economic sanction and that is what the west is trying to do by forcing CHINA to slow down it export via a currency appreciation and CHINA fighting back with a show of military strength like 5th gen airctaft, aircraft carrier, sat weapons. Reminds me of west VS Saddam Hussain.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by chola »

subhamoy.das wrote:I analyzed further.

CHINESE per capita house hold consumption levels are comparable to - in 30% or less - Angola, Luxembourgh, Saudi, Kuwait, Brunei, Macao, Gabon, Guinea, Congo, Azerbaijan, BHUTAN. So CHINA is in ranks of august company indeed.
Angola = extremely poor
Luxembourgh = extremely wealthy
Saudi = extremely wealthy
Kuwait = extremely wealthy
Brunei = extremely wealthy
Macao = extremely wealthy
Gabon = extremely poor

What exactly are you trying to get at with your per capita consumption levels?
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

chola wrote:
subhamoy.das wrote:I analyzed further.

CHINESE per capita house hold consumption levels are comparable to - in 30% or less - Angola, Luxembourgh, Saudi, Kuwait, Brunei, Macao, Gabon, Guinea, Congo, Azerbaijan, BHUTAN. So CHINA is in ranks of august company indeed.
Angola = extremely poor
Luxembourgh = extremely wealthy
Saudi = extremely wealthy
Kuwait = extremely wealthy
Brunei = extremely wealthy
Macao = extremely wealthy
Gabon = extremely poor

What exactly are you trying to get at with your per capita consumption levels?
It is household consumption as % of GDP and not house hold consumption. As for conclusion, u need to read the whole post..
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

heech wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:Do the Chinese realize that they have to carry out the next generation of reforms? And unfortunately these reforms are not all going to be restricted to the economic/financial sphere?
Yes, and no? Who are "the Chinese" that you refer to? Certainly many Chinese are aware of it. Every speech given by the top leadership for the last half year has repeatedly focused on the need for deep/difficult reforms. Many have pointed to Xi Jinping (the new party head) visiting Shenzhen as being a signal that he's going to try to push through changes as profound as those approved by Deng Xiaoping in the early 90s.

But talk is cheap. Any reforms will mean taking away power/wealth from established interest groups. Can that be done successfully? Will reforms be blocked by those individuals benefitting from the status quo? Who knows? Stay tuned.

For example, the out-going premier Wen Jiabao promised that one of his legacy projects would be a major framework for flattening the income gap between rich/poor. He promised that would be published before the end of 2012. And now, with only 2 months left before formal retirement...? Still nothing. The Chinese government obviously does many things very well, but that doesn't mean it does EVERYTHING well.
The main concern with the so called political reforms is that it may lead to undoing of all the hard work put in by the Chinese people. Yes CPC has provided a superlative focus on growth to the exclusion of everything else. But if the transition to a more representative and open system is not handled properly then PRC might be thrown back a decade or more and that would be sad. PRC has examples of countries right at its door steps. South Korea and Taiwan. These countries had initially hiccups transitioning from a single party rule (Taiwan) or from a military dictatorship (South Korea) to a more representative form of government. But they managed to do it in a manner which did not permanently harm their economy accomplishments.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by svinayak »

January 23 2013

Is China an Economic Miracle or a Government Sponsored Fraud? Pt 2
A few months ago, we asked, "is China an economic miracle or one giant government sponsored fraud?" Our views were the latter with corruption as one of the key driving forces for wealth creation and economic growth in China.

Consider the following:

1) In 2010 alone, 146,000 cases of corruption were launched in China (that's 400 PER DAY).

2) Of the 14 cases that were actually reported in the Chinese media, the average amount stolen was 18 MILLION RMB (for perspective, the average college graduate in China earns 2,500 RMB per year).

3) Between 1991-2011, it's estimated that between 16,000-18,000 Chinese officials fled China taking 800 BILLION RMB (roughly $125 BILLION) with them. Bear in mind China's entire GDP was just 2.1 trillion RMB in 1991.

4) It's estimated that on average bribes comprise 5-10% of a given project's costs in China today.

Indeed, things are so corrupt in China, that as soon as the new Government stated it would crack down on corruption, a fire sale of luxury properties began as corrupt officials sought to dump their illegal holdings.

Thousands of Chinese communist officials have been panicked into a fire sale of their illicit properties and billions of pounds have been smuggled overseas as the country's new leaders intensify a campaign to root out corruption...

It said the volume of deals had intensified by "a hundred times" after Xi Jinping, the incoming Chinese president, warned that corruption could kill the party and put one of the country's most vigorous and resolute politicians, Wang Qishan, in charge of stamping out graft...

The CDIC report, which was obtained by the Economic Observer newspaper, suggested that nearly 10,000 luxurious homes had been sold by officials in Guangzhou and Shanghai last year.... Li Chengyan, a professor at Peking University, suggested that about 10,000 officials had absconded from China with as much as pounds $US100 billion.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/the-great-c ... z2IobQB27X

These individuals fleeing China have been buying up luxury properties outside of the country. As you likely have noticed, the world has experienced a wave of Chinese buyers for high-end real estate. While some of them are indeed individuals who have made legitimate money from business, many are in fact corrupt officials who have fled the country with vast quantities of loot.

A new wave of buyers from China is snapping up luxury properties across the U.S., injecting billions of dollars into the country's residential-real-estate market.

The industry is scrambling to court the new buyers. Some developers of new projects are installing wok kitchens, following feng shui principles and putting lucky numbers on choice units; others are packaging property sales with government programs designed to encourage foreign investment. Real-estate agencies are flying representatives to China, and hiring Mandarin-speaking agents.

In Los Angeles, New York and even Miami, buyers mostly from China--and some are from Hong Kong, Singapore and Korea--are radically altering the landscape. Last month, a Chinese couple paid $34.5 million for a Versailles-style mansion on Sunset Boulevard in Beverly Hills, Calif. A year earlier, a Hong Kong businessman paid around $28 million for a nearby estate. Over the last six months in New York, several full-floor apartments in a new Manhattan high-rise called One57, each with a price tag of roughly $50 million, have gone into contract with Chinese buyers, according to two people close to the situation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 73212.html

This sort of fraud and corruption is systemic in China but it doesn't show up in the GDP or other economic figures the country posts. After all, if a poorly constructed bridge collapses China can always build another one and count it twice for GDP growth. And since the Government controls the media, no one is the wiser.

As a final example of how the China story will likely turn out, consider the following:

Caterpillar Inc. believed acquiring China's Zhengzhou Siwei was a way for the U.S. company to boost its fortunes in a lucrative but challenging market.

Siwei's sales and profit growth were surging. And the company offered access to China's mining industry, where domestic companies were prospering.

Siwei, which sells mine-safety equipment, also boasted an American pedigree. Its controlling shareholders were James E. Thompson III, the scion of one of Asia's most successful expatriate families, and Emory Williams, a former head of the American Chamber of Commerce in China. Caterpillar paid about $700 million in June for Siwei's parent, ERA Mining Machinery Ltd.

Caterpillar, known for bulldozers, excavators and wheel loaders, will have to write off about $580 million over alleged accounting misconduct at a Chinese maker of mine-safety equipment it bought in June. The WSJ's James T. Areddy talks about what this means for the big U.S. industrial company.

But now, the purchase has dealt a blow to Caterpillar's already lackluster performance in China.

The Peoria, Ill., construction-machinery maker on Friday said it would write down ERA's value by $580 million, blaming "deliberate, multiyear, coordinated accounting misconduct" that was designed to overstate profit at the unit before the deal. The accounting surprise contributed to the departure of a senior Caterpillar executive, a person familiar with the matter said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 80404.html

What are the odds that this is an isolated case?

If Caterpillar, one of the largest corporations in the world, with its army of accountants and consultants was duped by a Chinese company run by American executives no less... what are the odds that ordinary investors can accurately value Chinese businesses or the Chinese economy?

This is just one example of how a popular theme in the investment community (in this case that China is a superpower) can in fact turn out to be total bunk. Given how many investment professionals are banking on China leading the world to economic growth again, this trade is extremely crowded on one side.
member_20317
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by member_20317 »

heech wrote:
ravi_g wrote:
My query is regarding the level of black money employed in RE industry? On an average (estimate) what percentage of consideration would be paid out in cash?
Sorry, I don't understand what you are referring to. Are you talking about developers bribing officials, or something else...?

Basically I want to understand the percentage of consideration paid in cash by the client of a developer. With the kind of margin requirements that you have mentioned I expect a lot less of bank financing ergo a lot more of cash, if one has to sustain and actually increase prices as you point out.


heech wrote:
ravi_g wrote:
Also following are a few interactions I have had with others or that I just picked up and if possible request you to provide inputs that can help us reach a more accurate picture:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1213133
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1213283
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1213955

Basically I and a few other members are not convinced about the price graph. Graph is either a lie or if true then there is a bigger lie elsewhere. Unless there is something we have not focused on as yet.
I don't understand that graph, and can't find an obvious reference to the source. I can't speak to it. But I'm reasonably sure the graph isn't obviously correct... that is, land assets were trading for half their previous price at one point. It must be something measuring marginal deals, or something.... ie, the parcels actually changing hands were half the price of deals being done earlier, but that could be indicative of different deal mix....

In any case, it's interesting that many of the dire predictions about the Chinese real estate market have so far proven exaggerated. There's just too much demand (apparently).

Yup seems like a third possibility of interpreting it wrong. Actually the wild variations is also what got me suspicious. We got flummoxed by the mention of 'Price' in that particular graph. Normally in Indian reports that would have been 'Transaction Value'. I also believe that the reason you provide is the correct one which seems reasonably supported by the following links.

Figure 7 page 4:
https://doc.research-and-analytics.csfb ... 8Yj1j18%3D

and

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia ... ce-History

Since yours is a much riskier model of RE development, so you could be experiencing value variations, something like a third more than us. So if prices here fluctuate by +-20% then yours would probably fluctuate by about +-30%.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by subhamoy.das »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tec ... 194285.cms

Apple to move jobs from CHINA to USA.
Suraj
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

heech: the question about black money refers to whether or not Chinese developers request payment of a fraction of the cost of a real estate purchase in cash, as opposed to the use of a formal loan, check, bank transfer or anything involving the formal banking system.

It's quite common in India, both for large real estate purchases and even the purchase of basic goods. For example, you're offered a lower price on goods when you pay in cash, because the sale is not reported, helping them save on the sales tax while still pocketing a margin for themselves. This results in a substantial parallel economy, and this kind of thing happens everywhere, even in central Delhi or Bombay, not just in some small towns.

I assume this is less the case in China, because there's a greater incidence of access to the formal banking system, and a more controlled system where authorities pursue those who circumvent the formal banking system that is critical to funding Chinese fixed asset investment.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by heech »

Suraj wrote:heech: the question about black money refers to whether or not Chinese developers request payment of a fraction of the cost of a real estate purchase in cash, as opposed to the use of a formal loan, check, bank transfer or anything involving the formal banking system.
Aaaah thanks for the explanation. No, I would say this sort of payments are extremely rare, especially in primary markets when buying from the developer. Are tax rates much higher in India...? All in, I don't think tax rates go higher than 3-5% value of transaction.

Let me add that it is more common to offer discounts for some goods / services, if you don't ask for an official receipt.... for similar reasons.
Suraj
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

heech, it is not merely a question of property tax rates. Of course, the ideal tax rate would be 0% :) There's just a substantial amount of wealth that is not officially visible, in the hands of the developers, and the various political and business entities who buy the properties. Conducting part or all of the transactions in cash enables them to make that money work for them, as opposed to literally stay hidden under the mattress. The size of this parallel economy has been variously estimated at between 25-75% of official GDP. Every few years the government runs a disclosure amnesty scheme at tax time, where people are encouraged to report such 'black money' in exchange for a slap on the wrist. This is to encourage more of that parallel economy and wealth to come out into the open official economy.

I don't think something like this happens on such a scale in China. What happens instead is that the PRC local/federal official books themselves are either fraudulent or consist of two sets of books - one for public consumption and one with actual numbers. You probably know more about that, though.
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Vipul »

China's looming worker shortage threatens economy.

China's demographic time-bomb is ticking much louder with the first fall in its labour pool for decades, analysts say, highlighting the risk that the country grows old before it grows rich.

The abundant supply of cheap workers in the world's most populous nation has created unprecedented cost efficiencies that underpinned its blistering economic expansion over the past 35 years, propelling the global economy forward.

But now the inexorable consequences of the one-child policy imposed in the late 1970s are beginning to appear, and threaten to impact its future growth.

China's working-age population, defined as 15-59, fell 3.45 million last year, official data showed earlier this month -- the first decline since 1963, after tens of millions died in a famine caused by the Great Leap Forward.

The immediate effect may be small in a nation of 1.35 billion people, but the cumulative effects will accelerate over the coming decades.

The number of people aged between 15 and 64 will drop by around 40 million between 2014 and 2030, said Wang Guangzhou, a researcher with the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), a government think-tank -- more than Poland's entire population.

"The population is aging so fast that we are running short of time to deal with it," said Li Jun, also of CASS, adding the family planning policy had exacerbated the problem.

China's proportion of over-65-year-olds is projected to double from seven to 14 percent over only 26 years -- a key demographic measure that took the United States 69 years to complete.

"Undoubtedly it will substantially slow down China's potential growth rate," Yao Wei, an economist with Societe Generale in Hong Kong, told AFP.An ageing population not only means fewer people available to employ and higher labour costs, but investment -- a key driver of China's growth -- will be harder to maintain as families spend their savings on health care, she said.

Chinese authorities maintain that controlling its population growth has been key to increasing its prosperity.

But while China has risen to become the world's second-largest economy, on a per capita basis it still lags far behind the US and other developed countries.

Industrial disputes have become more common in recent years, as workers demand higher pay and better working conditions on the back of growing awareness of their rights and the shortage of skilled staff.

Multinational companies are looking to other developing economies with lower wages for further expansion, with some already moving production bases out of China to rivals such as Indonesia and Vietnam.In a survey of 514 Japanese manufacturers by the Japan Bank for International Cooperation last year, the number of respondents voting China as the top destination for overseas business fell by more than 10 percentage points on 2011.

Economists said China must look to speed up the transformation of its economic model and move up the value chain.

"The golden period of the manufacturing industry, particularly those depending on exports, has gone," said Yao.
Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Theo_Fidel »

No kamment...

Image
Christopher Sidor
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^
Awesome senic image. Wonder from where it is ?
Shankas
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Shankas »

Coal Country, West Virginia
Anand K
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Anand K »

Fun fact: America is called "Mei-Guo" in Mandarin Chinese. Means Beautiful Land. Cheen is of course Chung-Guo which means Middle Land (Kingdom).

Anyway, this giant screen with soothing pics attempting to offer some kinda solace is right out of dystopian sci-fi movies like "Brazil" and "Soylent Green". :roll:
Suraj
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Suraj »

There are other countries that are similarly named, but just a near-literal conversion of the entire name, or part of it:
Germany = De Guo
France = Fa Guo
UK = Ying Guo
Canada = Jia Na Da
India = Yin Du :)
TSP: Ba Ji Si Tan :mrgreen:
JE Menon
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Suraj, seriously? Yin Du? What does it mean? In the past we used to be "Noble Land"... May have something to do with a direct translation of Arya Varta in sanskrit, but what does Yin Du mean? Hindu?
Satya_anveshi
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Re: PRC Economy - New Reflections : Dec 15 2011

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Appears chinees got the "Guo" part correctly assigned. :D I am sure pukis must be p!ssed at the discrimination.
They should change Ba Ji Si Tan to Pa Guo to make them even.
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